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9-5 is the modern evil

A post of a ranting nature...

Everyman

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Possibly starting to drift off topic. However 11 hours is now the same production as 40 in 1950

Productivity and the Workweek - shorter hours

If we had kept the same levels of productivity and reduced hours, then we would be on 11 hour work weeks. With a possible drop in unemployment if we had decided to keep the companies going 40 hours a week then the Jetsons four hour day is not far off the mark (since the wife didn't work) George was doing two full time jobs in his society, no wonder he complained so much!

Interesting but perhaps irrelevant until your looking for employees.

I can quickly explain this 'phenomenon'.

People might be capable of producing more but they are in reality producing less. What does it mean? If you are 'producing' excel spreadsheets or powerpoint presentations then you aren't probably producing much. I work for a big company and the time and money wasted here go into quintillion dollars/euros etc... spend on unnecessary meetings, projects, services, products, building bureaucracy etc...

You need to ask yourself - what part of your 'job' is adding real value?

Secondly the FED is printing FED notes with the speed of light and the currency has already lost 97% of its value already since the inception (1913). The wage/salary increases haven't followed as fast because the freshly printed currency is captured firstly by the person standing closest to the printer (and 'an average person' is at the bottom). So you need to work more for less...


yea it i can imagine and it frustrates me.
I may have found the fastlane path but I really feel bad for the rest.
I wish we could all be free, id rather be poor than be rich exploiting the ignorant.
but there's nothing i can do, this dynamic is fundamentally ingrained into modern society on every level.

I did that too but now I just look for people that share my point of view/way of thinking. It's a waste of time to try to convince someone...
 
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LittleWolfie

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I can quickly explain this 'phenomenon'.

People might be capable of producing more but they are in reality producing less. What does it mean? If you are 'producing' excel spreadsheets or powerpoint presentations then you aren't probably producing much.

Work expands too fit the time available. There were plenty of people 'producing ' ledgers and spreadsheets before the computer was a thing (Accountants) so intangible items are not really bad in themselves, that work is valued by the market T. This is the idesa behind ROW, if you can achieve all your weekly KPIs in 10 hours a week, why bother turning up for the other 30?
 

LeoistheSun

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Hmm, I wonder if this modern-day slavery is what has led to the rise of socialism.
 

LittleWolfie

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Hmm, I wonder if this modern-day slavery is what has led to the rise of socialism.


Funny enough, the aforementioned Ford was a devout socialist. It was seen as the right wing capitalist response to communism and the then current exploitation of workers.
 
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Jason "GrandK"

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Funny enough, the aforementioned Ford was a devout socialist. It was seen as the right wing capitalist response to communism and the then current exploitation of workers.

Not sure how you arrived at Ford being a socialist. He certainly is a controversial figure but I don't know how you lump him into the category of socialist.

He exploited workers but he also paid well and did so with a 5 day week rather than 6. I am sure his workers did not feel exploited at the time.

But it has led to our current system, which I would agree is exploitative of employees.

Ford was a capitalist, as is evidenced by his ability of turning and maximizing resources and assets into capital. His greatest achievement being the utilization and maximization of human capital. I am not arguing for or against his policies, just stating my observation.

And for the record, there is no greater exploitation of the common man than under socialist or communist regime. Capitalism, with a focus on individual liberty and property rights, is still the best system known to man.
 

Late Bloomer

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Interesting thread! I believe within my lifetime, we'll finally see enough Boomers retire so that Millennials are predominantly in charge in the workforce. When that happens, I think Millennials will take the whole concept of 9-5 standard hours and sweep it into the dustbin of history. Of course retail stores, restaurants, and medical clinics need to have predictable hours. Everything else will be on a very flexible schedule, with workers choosing which hours they want to come in or, more often, be available for instant response by phone/IM/video chat or whatever the Internet will have evolved to by then. Fortunately, most entrepreneurs don't have to wait for society to change, to start doing business in a futuristic way today.
 

LittleWolfie

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Not sure how you arrived at Ford being a socialist. He certainly is a controversial figure but I don't know how you lump him into the category of socialist.
.

He said so in his autobiography and he was a financial supporter of self declared socialist parties at home and abroad (note the American definition of socialism has changed since Ford's time in a way the UK/European definition hasn't.) Plus he took actions, that are very socialist within his lifetime.

He also paid well and did so with a 5 day week rather than 6. I am sure his workers did not feel exploited at the time.

That's socialist, the optimal numbers say have changed as society as marched on (no one suggests we should use Ford-era communication or transport technologies) but the principle of less work for good pay as an alternative to raising wages still holds. I understand he also liked to subsidise public libraries and parks on the thought that if the common man can go there, he won't go drinking instead. That's rather socialist.
Not sure how you arrived at Ford being a socialist. He certainly is a controversial figure but I don't know how you lump him into the category of socialist.

He exploited workers but he also paid well and did so with a 5 day week rather than 6. I am sure his workers did not feel exploited at the time.

But it has led to our current system, which I would agree is exploitative of employees.

Ford was a capitalist, as is evidenced by his ability of turning and maximizing resources and assets into capital. His greatest achievement being the utilization and maximization of human capital. I am not arguing for or against his policies, just stating my observation.

And for the record, there is no greater exploitation of the common man than under socialist or communist regime. Capitalism, with a focus on individual liberty and property rights, is still the best system known to man.

Ford was a capitalist, as is evidenced by his ability of turning and maximizing resources and assets into capital. His greatest achievement being the utilization and maximization of human capital. I am not arguing for or against his policies, just stating my observation.
.

Being a socialist doesn't mean you can't be a capitalist or right wing. Today we might call him a social capitalist or third way or Norweigan style.

Norway has a budget surplus, more assets than debts,utilises resources for capital generation and is still socialist.

Ford has not maximised the use of capital (otherwise it would be a 24/7 day work week) he optimised It considering the needs of the people and the demands of the capital. Did he have the ability to so so? Absolutely, but just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to do so.

I am not arguing for or against his policies, just stating my observation.

And for the record, there is no greater exploitation of the common man than under socialist or communism. Capitalism, with a focus on individual liberty and property rights, is still the best system known to man.

I'm not arguing for or against his polices either, but it's interesting that we have totally different definitions of the same actions.

As to no greater exploition of the common man, that depends on your definition. Is European healthcare socialist or capitalist? Inability to afford an ambulance leads to exploitation, is that capitalist? Is Europe socialist or capitalist? What about 1930-45 during Germany?
 
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luniac

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Not sure how you arrived at Ford being a socialist. He certainly is a controversial figure but I don't know how you lump him into the category of socialist.

He exploited workers but he also paid well and did so with a 5 day week rather than 6. I am sure his workers did not feel exploited at the time.

But it has led to our current system, which I would agree is exploitative of employees.

Ford was a capitalist, as is evidenced by his ability of turning and maximizing resources and assets into capital. His greatest achievement being the utilization and maximization of human capital. I am not arguing for or against his policies, just stating my observation.

And for the record, there is no greater exploitation of the common man than under socialist or communist regime. Capitalism, with a focus on individual liberty and property rights, is still the best system known to man.

is the best system a system allowing for maximum self actualization for its people?
 

LittleWolfie

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Of course retail stores, restaurants, and medical clinics need to have predictable hours. be available for instant response by phone/IM/video chat or whatever the Internet will have evolved to by then. .

There's predictable hours and 9-5. For instance when I look up a business on Google Maps, it tells me when they are likely to be busy, so I can schedule accordingly. Now if I was an owner and knew that 80% of my customers came in at 12-2, that might be when I'd want employees to work conventially, perhaps being on call for the rest of the time. They can sit and play in a nearby cafe/car/ at home and get pinged by the phone when someone enters the door just as easily as ringing the bell calls people in who might be working in the stock.room


I suspect the internet change will be VR, we are not quite there yet though(mainly due to bandwidth limitations) I also wonder if this partly explains the freelancer rise and skills shortage. People value working for themselves in a non traditional hours than lots of money form employers.
 

luniac

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is the best system a system allowing for maximum self actualization for its people?

There is no best system for allowing maximization of the self actualized soul. Simply look at history and the great men it has produced in the most desperate of times. Rather, men of valor and honor rise above all circumstances and are produced in all systems at all times. They are the ones who understand that suffering, pain, conflict and resistance are simply events to be endured, to reach a higher level of awareness.

Capitalism has allowed good men, who through their perseverance have created means and ways for mankind to flourish. But just like anything, it also has been used by perverse and wicked men to create more needless pain and suffering. It is not the system per se, but the man.
 

luniac

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There is no best system for allowing maximization of the self actualized soul. Simply look at history and the great men it has produced in the most desperate of times. Rather, men of valor and honor rise above all circumstances and are produced in all systems at all times. They are the ones who understand that suffering, pain, conflict and resistance are simply events to be endured, to reach a higher level of awareness.

Capitalism has allowed good men, who through their perseverance have created means and ways for mankind to flourish. But just like anything, it also has been used by perverse and wicked men to create more needless pain and suffering. It is not the system per se, but the man.

that's true.
I was thinking more along the lines of the average man.
 
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Jason "GrandK"

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You and I conceptualize and define socialism and capitalism differently. As such, we see through different lenses. What you point to as socialism, I point to as compassionate capitalism. Socialism to me is when the government controls under the umbrella of collectivism and no longer allows the individual to flourish. If Ford chose to be a benefactor of his fellow man and society at large, that is not socialism, at least not how I would define it.
 

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You and I conceptualize and define socialism and capitalism differently. As such, we see through different lenses. What you point to as socialism, I point to as compassionate capitalism. .
That's probably because I use the UK definition, not the American one. I'm guessing you used the American one. Compassionate Capitalism is not a bad description of Norway's model.

Socialism to me is when the government controls under the umbrella of collectivism and no longer allows the individual to flourish. If Ford chose to be a benefactor of his fellow man and society at large, that is not socialism, at least not how I would define it.
What about if you found out Ford, was funding political parties who wanted to implement some form of collectivism? What if you found out he wanted to forcibly stop the then standard six day week, regardless of if workers or other employers liked it or not? Is that socialist now? Sure, you can say there is constraint, you cant't fire people at will, because you don't like their shirt although Norway has no minimum wage laws either, so there's less constraint that way. Even capitalist societies constrain people, that is why corporate law exists (Imagine, if there was no law against INSIDERS trading or corporate espionage or sabotage or shoplifting. Anti-shoplifting laws constrain individuals for the benefit of companies, while minimum wage laws constrain companies for the benefit of individuals. (I'm counting freelancers as companies there)


is there anything more important than self actualization really?

Yes, food,water,shelter,healthcare. Dead people can't self actualise, those who don't get help when needed, die.
 
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Jason "GrandK"

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What about if you found out Ford, was funding political parties who wanted to implement some form of collectivism? What if you found out he wanted to forcibly stop the then standard six day week, regardless of if workers or other employers liked it or not? Is that socialist now?

It certainly is starting to resemble socialism, moving towards fascism.

Sure, you can say there is constraint, you cant't fire people at will, because you don't like their shirt although Norway has no minimum wage laws either, so there's less constraint that way. Even capitalist societies constrain people, that is why corporate law exists (Imagine, if there was no law against INSIDERS trading or corporate espionage or sabotage or shoplifting. Anti-shoplifting laws constrain individuals for the benefit of companies, while minimum wage laws constrain companies for the benefit of individuals. (I'm counting freelancers as companies there)

Some people need to be constrained because some men are evil. The few screw it up for those who are not.

Now, we can argue for or against each law to decide whether or not it serves the purpose it was created for.

For example, minimum wage laws. They were originally enacted to prevent certain people from entering the job market, not to help create a wage floor. And who is to say that minimum wage laws actually provide value to society, since it has been shown that they may actually hurt low skilled laborers.

I think we may have ventured off the reservation with this conversation.
 

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I spoke to one developer who moved from Palo Alto to Utah

It's easy logistically for an American to relocate within the U.S. You just need to find a landlord or a home to buy, decide whether to take your car or sell it and get another one in the new town, find new schools, grocery stores, church and whatever else you want in your life. Changing driver and car registration is usually quick and affordable.

Many Americans live less than five years in any place before they relocate.

The only part that's really difficult is to get a job in the new location. But if you have an Internet business, that should work as well anywhere.

You might have slower Internet service and fewer technical people within an easy drive in Utah. But also a much lower cost of a living and probably a much more relaxed, less hectic lifestyle. There are cultural differences across the country, but unless someone's a New Age hippie radical who hates Mormonism, they'll probably be able to make friends and get along fine in Utah.
 

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Ford's memoir "My Life and Work" is available free online. He discussed the schedule change and his reasons for it. He was very opinionated, and liked to let people know the reasons for his opinions. Not much need to guess about where he was coming from.
 
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LittleWolfie

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It certainly is starting to resemble socialism, moving towards fascism.

Now, we can argue for or against each law to decide whether or not it serves the purpose it was created for.

For example, minimum wage laws. They were originally enacted to prevent certain people from entering the job market, not to help create a wag

I think we may have ventured off the reservation with this conversation.

Thing is there were facisist socialists so it's not really a contradiction form my terms. Trying to get back on track 9-5 Is really a 1950s thing (be it good or evil) not a modern one.

Ford's memoir "My Life and Work" is available free online. He discussed the schedule change and his reasons for it. He was very opinionated, and liked to let people know the reasons for his opinions. Not much need to guess about where he was coming from.

I'm pretty sure that's the autobiography I was referring towards. He wouldn't have done it, if it didn't help his company. I got the impression he was able to look beyond the immediate bottom line, and well invest in people. Which seems to have been lost a lot nowadays in the pursuit of cost cutting and maximising the bottom line. Which might be why 9-5 is still a thing.

Of course Ford had no shareholders to answer too, so if he wanted to pay workers more over the short term, to increase his profits over the long term, who could stop him?

The only part that's really difficult is to get a job in the new location.

You might have slower Internet service and fewer technical people within an easy drive in Utah. But also a much lower cost of a living and probably a much more relaxed, less hectic lifestyle. There are cultural differences across the country, but unless someone's a New Age hippie radical who hates Mormonism, they'll probably be able to make friends and get along fine in Utah.

He moved for the job, less hours were better than the money for him.

That's not too far form my immediate plan. An internet business, contractor or even slow lane remote job, can get me to somewhere with a million people. Plenty of low cost of living areas I can target and start flipping or other fastlane in-perpsm pursuits then build it out.

After all of my expenses are lower, I can achieve my desired lifestyle from passive income that much quicker.
 

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I don't know. I have not thought long enough about it. What are your thoughts?
i can't find the video, but it was a russian professor giving a lecture about Putin's rise to power, but went off on a tangent about self actualization.

he put forth an argument that freedom is an illusion and always has been, and that the next best thing is self actualization and that the Soviet Union provided the best chance of that for the most people.

I think it might be true.
 

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Yes, food,water,shelter,healthcare. Dead people can't self actualise, those who don't get help when needed, die.

well yea those are the basic needs as outlined in maslows hierarchy of needs.

I made the assumption that these fundamental needs are already being met, as they generally are in a first world society.
 
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well yea those are the basic needs as outlined in maslows hierarchy of needs.

I made the assumption that these fundamental needs are already being met, as they generally are in a first world society.

I'm not sure that assumption holds water, as I see thing like this. Boston woman wounded by train refuses ambulance: 'I can't afford that' Not to mention no end of gofundmes for Americans seeking treatment. Plenty of people whi want to reproduce who can not. (That came under the basic needs)

It seems to me that plenty of first world countries don't meet the basic needs.

Financial independence would come under safety, so food banks and welfare shouldn't be needed when safety is satisfied. Not to mention love/belonging and self esteem (if their satisfied, suicide rates should be zero)

Plus well your basic needs can override self actualization at any time. I can see that a lot of fastlaners might be higher up though.
 

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he put forth an argument that freedom is an illusion and always has been, and that the next best thing is self actualization and that the Soviet Union provided the best chance of that for the most people.

I think it might be true.
"The Soviet Union provided the best chance of self-actualization for the most people".

I was going to explain the mind-boggling absurdity of this, but I think there's no point. If someone is saying something like that, and saying he thinks it might be true, and on a fundamentally capitalist forum, it's either just trolling or is beyond helping. And he's been here 6 years.

Probably the most depressing part of this stuff is that it never goes away. I bet in 2150 there will be people saying "I think Hitler was basically misunderstood, and was actually probably a good thing for Germany", "Contrary to popular misconception, Mao was a true friend to the peasants", "Anarchism is the only true form of social organisation, and society will ultimately attain it when people wise up".

That there internet.
 

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"The Soviet Union provided the best chance of self-actualization for the most people".

I was going to explain the mind-boggling absurdity of this, but I think there's no point. If someone is saying something like that, and saying he thinks it might be true, and on a fundamentally capitalist forum, it's either just trolling or is beyond helping. And he's been here 6 years.

Probably the most depressing part of this stuff is that it never goes away. I bet in 2150 there will be people saying "I think Hitler was basically misunderstood, and was actually probably a good thing for Germany", "Contrary to popular misconception, Mao was a true friend to the peasants", "Anarchism is the only true form of social organisation, and society will ultimately attain it when people wise up".

That there internet.
well if u gonna put hitler, anarchism, and the soviet union in the same boat than not much to discuss lol
I'm not delusional about living in a capitalist system and I know fastlane is the best way to live a good life in such a system.
still keep an open mind though about other approaches lol
 
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This is why I always respond that the "Digitalization" so dreaded by people and preached to be the death of so many jobs is a very good thing. Humans are not meant to slave off every day like a robot. Let's build more robots and programs and make them earn the money, while we watch them doing it. Finally the robots will be able to build more robots. Japan is a good example here.
And in the end there will be one big AI which is so uber-intelligent that it will make better business decisions than any human and accumulate a massive amount of wealth, only to make humans obsolete...lol
 

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I'm not sure that assumption holds water, as I see thing like this. Boston woman wounded by train refuses ambulance: 'I can't afford that' Not to mention no end of gofundmes for Americans seeking treatment. Plenty of people whi want to reproduce who can not. (That came under the basic needs)

It seems to me that plenty of first world countries don't meet the basic needs.

Financial independence would come under safety, so food banks and welfare shouldn't be needed when safety is satisfied. Not to mention love/belonging and self esteem (if their satisfied, suicide rates should be zero)

Plus well your basic needs can override self actualization at any time. I can see that a lot of fastlaners might be higher up though.

true true, I'm pursuing fastlane because I feel my basic needs aren't met.
I guess most people who work jobs they don't enjoy are just surviving.
 

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well if u gonna put hitler, anarchism, and the soviet union in the same boatl

Well, I was vauge to avoid running into Godwin's law but you meantioned the head of the national socialist party. The Zi in nazi stands for the German word for socialist. So it's jarring when Americans complain about it being left wing. Hitler is too left wing for you? Not being argumentative or calling you or any modern day party as horrific as them. It does show how the meaning of the word has diverged considerably.

While everyone here is fastlane or fastlane aspiring, not everyone wants to be, and I think there's gold there.

true true, I'm pursuing fastlane because I feel my basic needs aren't met.
I guess most people who work jobs they don't enjoy are just surviving.

I'm also pursuing fastlane for similar reasons. I'd much rather be at the third level, than be a millionaire or own a lambo. (Note he includes financial saftey/security of income)

I think most people who are slowlaners/sidewalkers are mostly on level 1 or 2.
 
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There is nothing on gods green earth that i would want to do 8 hours a day 5 days a week.
Not sex, not my favorite sport, not my favorite video games, not reading, not movies, not chilling at the beach,

and most certainly not something i dont even want to do like day job work.

f*ck the 9-5 its an unnatural spawn of industrialization and will not exist in 100 years.
Those of us trapped in the middle of it must F*ckin escape this devil.

Its not even efficient! studies have shown productivity plummets after only a few hours, the only reason we still have 9-5 is because society is so rigid to change.
part time work would be healthier and more productive, if i ever have employeed id only hire for part time work.

/endrant

Totally agreed , but 9-5 is more beneficial to employers as they can squeeze as much work they want.
 

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Well, I was vauge to avoid running into Godwin's law but you meantioned the head of the national socialist party. The Zi in nazi stands for the German word for socialist. So it's jarring when Americans complain about it being left wing. Hitler is too left wing for you? Not being argumentative or calling you or any modern day party as horrific as them. It does show how the meaning of the word has diverged considerably.

While everyone here is fastlane or fastlane aspiring, not everyone wants to be, and I think there's gold there.



I'm also pursuing fastlane for similar reasons. I'd much rather be at the third level, than be a millionaire or own a lambo. (Note he includes financial saftey/security of income)

I think most people who are slowlaners/sidewalkers are mostly on level 1 or 2.

the Nazis may have called themselves socialist, but we all know them as fascist.
is it left wing to build genocidal concentration camps? lol
I scratch my head when soviet union gets compared to that kind of stuff.

I don't really care bout being a millionaire either per say, just need enough money to get most of my time back.
 

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