Ebola in the USA... Anyone Concerned?

[smarty]

I'm in Europe, so nope but..

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I have a low level of confidence in people not being idiots

I was recently in Belize which is pretty much a third world country. Our flight out of Belize was first 6 hours late, then ultimately cancelled. Everyone on the flight including me, stranded. In those 6 hours of sitting around in an airport with no resources, no water, and no information, (the airport is tiny and all the stores were closed because it was still considered "low season") I can tell you that Ebola is not the problem-- it's the chaos that will happen once the panic hits a coddled, self-entitled and sheltered American populous.

As I sat there and watched the chaos ensue over a delayed, then a cancelled flight, I thought to myself, OMG, this sucks, definitely an inconvenience, but the people around me, I'm assuming all Americans, were acting like spoiled little brats who just had their juice box taken away. It clearly became "Every man for himself". Compassion was gone. One guy was screaming at the top of his lungs yelling at the Belizean airport attendants, like it was their fault our flight was cancelled by United.

In situations where all control appears lost, all rational thinking also goes out the window. Yelling and cursing some young Belizean girl behind the ticket counter, who just happens to be working for United, WILL NOT CHANGE YOUR SITUATION and miraculously make some 737 appear on the tarmac. Then there was the angry fat man with the cankles: I really don't think that yelling at the man, yes, the one who lives in a hut with no clean water and no functional toilet really cares that your uncles' first cousin is a lawyer and will "make United pay". OMFG.

As I sat there and overheard people's tired tirade after tirade to airline employees, the conversation always could be summed up the same: "I, I, I; Me, Me, Me... I am special. I don't deserve to be stranded here. I need to work. I need to be at a doctor's appointment. I need to get home, my mother, daughter, mistress, dog, blah blah, is waiting for me at there, I need this. I need that..." as if these narratives changed anything in our situation.

Folks, this was not a life threatening situation, merely an inconvenience and frustration. And yet, as I looked at the panic and chaos around me from mostly, I assume Americans, I thought to myself about Ebola. At that moment, it was clear. If this thing don't get under control, WE ARE F*ckED.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

http://heavy.com/health/2014/10/thomas-eric-duncan-ebola-patient-texas-mai-wureh/

I don't have a lot of faith in the US medical infrastructure to make easy work out of it.

IMO, this is the threat beneath the threat. If the virus was truly becoming an issue of concern, do you trust the government or any politician to provide accurate and truthful intel? Sure they will, about 24 hours after they retreat to their underground bunkers.

 

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[DeletedUser394]

Ebola is serious s***t, it's classified as one of the world's most contagious diseases, and kills about 3/5 people who contract it.

According to whom? That is 100% factually incorrect. In fact, ebola is extremely noncontagious from a medical perspective.

Measles, Airborne diseases... MERS, flus... even the common cold, are significantly more contagious (by a wide margin).

The one and only way to contract ebola is from direct contact with blood, mucous, semen, etc. The fact that it is not airborne is massive and it is thus not 'one of the world's most contagious diseases' lol.

As for the mortality rate, it's probably only that high due to the poor standards of care where the disease first began. Proper hydration for example is a huge aid in fighting the disease.. and it's relatively easy to set up IVs in the US... not so much in rural Liberia where patients are just crammed into a large room with poorly equipped medical staff... but that is speculation on my part. Fact is though, ebola is not some super contagious disease... it's freaking hard to contract.

Lack of proper information is the root of fear-mongering.

Unlike colds/the flu, ebola is 100% non contagious during incubation period. With the colds/flu you are contagious before you yourself even know you have it.

But whatever, be scared my friends. I survived the apocalyptic bird flu and swine flu (both of which were XXX times more contagious). I think I'll make it through this nonsense as well.

 

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[SBS.95]

I'm not really worried about this, but I've always been curious. Could Ebola travel on the packages I import from China using UPS? I used to believe everything was irradiated, but I can't seem to find any evidence on Google.

No. Ebola relies on a host to survive. It cannot survive on surfaces for any extended period of time. The idea of an Ebola victim sneezing on a package, and then it showing up at your door a few days later, and then you getting the virus, is absurd- even under perfect laboratory conditions the virus wouldn't be capable of surviving a long trip like that.

While it's easy to get freaked out because the news (the people who get money from our attention) is broadcasting it everywhere, it's important to keep the facts in mind. It's very unlikely that the nurse who traveled to Cleveland infected anyone. Most infections have occurred to those caring for people already showing later symptoms of the virus. This recent update certainly shouldn't stop me, or anyone else, from going to a Browns game (though my dislike of Johnny Football would.)

Lastly, and this will come across as callous, but I'm just trying to lay out the facts... this outbreak has been going on for 6+ months, and has infected 9000 people in Africa. That's a CDC estimate and many are calling that inaccurate, so let's go ahead and double their estimate. That's 18,000 infections in 6 months, in countries with poor health care systems, poor sanitary conditions, and where there is a tradition for all members of a village to touch the dead body of Ebola victims. The fact that it has only infected this amount of people should say something about how hard it is to contract the virus.

P.S. The country of Nigeria is now Ebola-free. They stopped it. We will too. That doesn't mean everything will go perfectly as planned, or that there won't be more infections, or that the CDC is the most competent organization in the world. But I think we can handle it. Either way, the people going out and buying bio suits and respiratory masks need to stop reading /r/Ebola and blogs run by guys living somewhere in the foothills of Montana.

Just wash your hands and don't go swapping spit with sniffling strangers on airplanes, and you'll be fine.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-nigeria-stopped-ebola-2014-10

---

By the way, I'm not saying we should be playing this with our head in the sand. Ebola is an excruciatingly painful way to die and it's sad that we are at the place we are. But for those of us safely living in 1st world countries, we should be talking about international relief, not "which bio suit should I buy", which is where this thread has devolved to in the past couple days. This isn't real-life Contagion, although that's a good movie if anyone is bored this weekend.

 

[Trill2b]

IMO, as Americans, we've become complacent. Some would say arrogant. There's a sense of "it could never happen here." But let's look at this...

Right now in Dallas, there's a desperate call out for nurses. About 70 (let that number sink in...) health care workers cared for Duncan. Of those, two have already gotten Ebola. Let's take the other 68. Are they still working? If so, who are they potentially infecting? If not, who's taking their place? Basically, ONE dude who lied to obtain "free" medical care has caused mass chaos in just one major U.S. city. Now, that city is short of nurses. The hospital that treated him is basically closed to non-Ebola cases. Dallas has been forced to contact and monitor hundreds of people. Soon, they'll be contacting and monitoring hundreds more, including those who flew with the second infected nurse a couple days ago.

Now, imagine if "only" ten Duncans get through. Or imagine if someone infected by Duncan or a nurse is walking around sick right now, thinking they just have the flu. Ebola spreads exponentially. One person infects two people and so on.

I don't think it's fear-mongering to suggest you stock some food and supplies just in case.

I also suggest that Americans in Texas or anywhere else that is affected do what Nigerians did... have every medical center and office set up to have hand wash systems in place outside the buildings including use of non contact thermometers on everyone entering such buildings to detect fevers promptly. Also everyone should stop or reduce shaking hands or touching strangers or even friends, use hand sanitizers every 3 hours.
It became a national habit here...

 

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[ChickenHawk]

I wasn't worried about the bird flu. I wasn't worried about the swine flu. With Ebola, yeah, I'm worried.

No matter what the nice men in hazmat suits say, this thing is obviously a lot more contagious than they're admitting. This isn't AIDS, where you practically have to exchange semen or blood to get it. Look at that first American, Patrick Sawyer. He alone, infected 10 people before dying, and as far as we all know, he wasn't humping people on his way to the hospital.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/14/how-bureaucrats-let-ebola-spread-to-nigeria.html
"On July 25, five days after he landed in Lagos, Sawyer died. At least 10 Nigerians were infected as a result of his apparently officially sanctioned travel, including a nursing mother who had given birth at the hospital before he arrived but returned afterward for her newborn’s vaccinations..."

Quote from one of his nurses: “I never contacted his fluids. I checked his vitals, helped him with his food (he was too weak),” wrote the nurse, Obi Justina Ejelonu. “I basically touched where his hands touched and that’s the only contact. Not directly with his fluids. .."

About the dip-shit in Dallas, he knew damn well he was sick. In Liberia, he had direct contact with someone who died from Ebola. So what does he do? He hops on a f*cking plane to bring it here, probably for the "free" medical care. And our government, unlike most Western countries, still has the doors wide open, and don't even get me started on our Southern border. But all this guy had to do was lie and take some aspirin or whatever to lower his temperature, and viola! He's let right in with no quarantine period whatsoever. And then, in the hospital, sure, he mentions he's from Africa, but leaves out the little tidbit about him having recent, direct contact with someone who freakin' DIED of the disease. No doubt, he didn't want to get in trouble for that little white lie he told travel officials.

I've heard estimates that this one guy's health care is going to cost taxpayers anywhere from $250K to $1 million. And that's just one guy. Let's pretend he recovers from this thing. Who's going to pay the bill when it's ten people? A hundred people? A thousand people? Where will a kid go to get stitches when the hospitals are Ebola infected hotzones, or when the staff are utterly overwhelmed? Or when nurses and doctors stop showing up for work for fear of infecting their own families? Where will women to go deliver their babies? I know that we supposedly have "superior' health care, but even in our modern society, systems can become overwhelmed rather quickly. Even if you never get Ebola, the longterm ramifications can be pretty serious is this thing escalates.

And I'm with MJ on the bunker thing. As for government officials, they'll lie right up to the moment their private jets take off to their own private safe havens, courtesy of us lowly taxpayers.

Do I think I'll personally get Ebola? No. Do I think this is going to cost our country a lot more than anyone's letting on. Definitely, especially now that there's a precedent that we'll give free treatment to anyone able to secure a plane ride. Seriously, you couldn't make this shit up. It reads like the script of some entirely predictable disaster movie.

/Rant Off

 

[Bananas]

Here's a photo of the crew cleaning up the Ebola vomit outside the Dallas apartment, captured by a newscrew.

Don't think using a pressure washer is a good idea.

Hazmat suits? Naww....

These guys got everything under control.

We have nothing to worry about.

I saw this on another forum where it is being discussed heavily. This picture actually freaked me out more than anything has in a long, long time. Apparently Patient Zero vomited outside his apartment when he was being removed to the ambulance. Keep in mind, the ambulance he was transported in covered in vomit, was kept in service for two days after he was in it exposing who knows how many others.

The response to the vomit was apparently photographed here - but we don't know who that guy is. Could be an apartment maintenance worker, could be a city employee. Regardless, he is not wearing a hazmat suit while pressure washing this and there is some woman just chilling while this goes on.

This photograph on top of the total and complete mishandling of Patient Zero - referencing the fact he was sent home two days previous with antibiotics even after being clear he was vomiting and had traveled from Liberia plus the fact when he arrived the second time to the hospital still nothing was being done until a relative of his in North Carolina called the CDC to alert them - I have went from being 'I don't know what to think' to 'WTF is this shit response from the government?'

Like ChickenHawk, I am a cynical GenXer...But that's what I see right now - a reason to have concern due to the total lack of appropriate response by the government.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Its Friday afternoon, early evening depending on your location... pay attention to whatever information seems to come out during this time frame. It's usually selectively released as it marks the end of a news cycle and tends to get downplayed/ignored.

 

[DeletedUser394]

Not even slightly worried. And I worry about everything.

The medical infrastructure in place in North America is heads and shoulders above anything in West Africa.

SARS, MERS, norovirus, H5N1, H1N1... whatever.

I feel bad for the poverty, ignorance, lack of education and fear that caused the outbreak in the first place.. but life goes on.

As long as you aren't bathing dead people and eating bushmeat/fruit bats it's all good.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Here's a photo of the crew cleaning up the Ebola vomit outside the Dallas apartment, captured by a newscrew.

Don't think using a pressure washer is a good idea.

Hazmat suits? Naww....

These guys got everything under control.

We have nothing to worry about.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Self explanatory: https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/517106666915909633View attachment 8369 So hope this clears up all the fear and PANIC.
So I will just leave this here (straight from the USA government).

And F*ck you all who are spreading miss information

F*ck you, dipshit. The link and information I provided was from the World Health Organization. No matter how you feel about it, this was a thought-provoking debate...until..someone like you tries to shut down discourse with profanity-laden attacks. So right back atcha, asswipe.

 

[ChickenHawk]

my favorite meme kid hits again

View attachment 8396

Make that TWO people...
Health care worker at Presbyterian Hospital in Dallas tests positive for Ebola
http:/www.cnn.com/2014/10/12/health/ebola/index.html

The nurse, who wore full HazMat grear, had contact with Duncan during his second visit. In comparison, have you ever heard of a health care worker contracting AIDS from a patient? Then, there was the nurse in Spain. She also wore full HazMat gear and still contracted Ebola. The last I read, she's not expected to live. Her husband is under observation, along with several others. Her dog was killed to avoid the potential danger of "Fido" spreading the virus. (Apparently, animals can spread the virus without being sick themselves.) Now in Spain, many nurses are refusing to treat Ebola patients, and it's easy to see why.

In both of these cases, there's speculation that the nurses broke protocol with their HazMat suits. Even if they did, that's still troubling. Contagion aside, one of the things I also find troubling is that a mere handful of cases can cause major disruptions in whatever city. Apparently, Duncan's health care required the care of over 50 people, cost several hundred thousand dollars, and shut down a big portion of the hospital. Plus, decontaminating Duncan's apartment cost over 60K. All that effort, and now, there's talk of suing the hospital because his care "wasn't good enough." That can't be good for the morale of the nurses who put their lives on the line to treat him.

When you consider all the ramifications, it wouldn't take many of these cases to bankrupt and/or cause major disruptions in our system. If you lived in Dallas, and your kid had to get stitches, how would you feel about taking him to that emergency room? Or ANY Dallas emergency room for that matter? If you were a nurse, how would you feel about treating the next fevered vomiting guy?

BTW, the CDC is now saying you can get Ebola through "close contact". They define close contact as being within three feet of an Ebola victim for an extended period of time. You don't have to panic to find some of this troubling.

(EDIT/CORRECTION: The way it sounds, the nurse wasn't wearing the spacesuit type of HazMat gear, but rather a mask, gown, gloves and shield, per CDC guidelines. In all the instances above, I probably should've said "full protective" gear, not "full hazmat" gear.)

***EDIT: Changed the story link, above, after the original Dallas story became a dead link.

 

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[SBS.95]

Soon they will force every american to be vaccine against Ebola. Another immunization for children ...it will be the 27 th (before age 3)..
In the meantime 1/68 children are born with autism. Plus more sickness, ADHD, ADD, bipolar disorder...
Pharmaceutical companies are evil.

Seriously!? This has been widely debunked for years. It's complete bullshit. There is 0 correlation. If you aren't vaccinating your children, you are part of the problem- you allow these diseases to pop up again and perhaps mutate into more potent strains, infecting those of us who understand that organizations like pharmaceutical companies can't be broken down into black/white (good/evil.)

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...tism-vaccines-mccarthy-view-medicine-science/
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism/
http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/
http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/autismandvaccines.html <--- THIS ONE IS RIGHT OFF THE AUTISM SCIENCE FOUNDATION'S WEBSITE
http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/final-nail-coffin-vaccine-autism-myth/

The reason more children weren't diagnosed with ADHD, autism, or bipolar disorder 100 years ago is because doctors and medical researchers at the time were unaware of the existence of them. Please. Why don't we start lobotomizing again? How about trying to "beat the gay gene" out of people? Got any more out-of-date medical practices we should start using again?

Let's get back to the topic at hand. I, and I'm sure most others, have no interest in debating a study that was found false, with conclusive evidence, a decade ago.

 

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[ChickenHawk]

And Patient Two herself. Another idiot. Why travel under those conditions? Only an uncaring, irresponsible idiot would do such a thing.

I agree wholeheartedly with 99% of your post except for the above statement, because the nurses were following all the protocols, even related to travel. IMO, it's not their fault. It's the fault of those who misled them.

They CDC told the nurses they were low-to-zero risk. (Seriously WTF???) The CDC told the nurses they had nothing to worry about, because they'd been wearing protective gear. The CDC told them that even in the astronomical chance they DID get Ebola, they couldn't spread it if they weren't showing symptoms. The CDC told them to go about their business and take their temperature merely as a precaution.

Given the fact they'd followed all the CDC guidelines for protecting themselves, why WOULD they quarantine themselves? Look at the responses here on this thread. How many people here on this very thread would have mocked the nurses for staying home? (I can hear it now. "Stupid 'fear-mongering' nurses holding up in their apartments like preppers. How stooooopid...")

I think we're right to be angry. We SHOULD be angry. But I don't think we should be angry at the nurses. Unlike you and me, they obviously had a lot more confidence in our government officials. And they're young, maybe too young to be cynical and jaded like us Gen Xers. Now, they, along with their friends, relatives, pets, and neighbors, are paying the price.

It's makes me mad too, but mostly on their behalf, and on behalf of those impacted by this.

 

[Iwokeup]

And I am an ER doctor and this has me really worried. And that nurse deciding to get on the plane anyway (if the stories are true) is beyond irresponsible.

I tell you what: I am NOT going to put my family at risk of contracting this illness if I get exposed. No way

 

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[ChickenHawk]

I wish I could find the exact article, but a few years ago, I came across a really interesting article that discussed who survived disasters and why. One common characteristic was a willingness to disregard the guidance of authority figures when that guidance made no sense. For example, in the Twin Towers, lots of people were told to "stay put, because help is on the way..." The "distrusting," survivor types said, "This is bullshit" and made for the exits anyway, even though they were breaking the rules and might look foolish. Same with ferry accidents, etc.

If you buy masks/food/water/whatever now, and don't need them, you'll look foolish to some people. If you don't, and the disaster is worse than authority figures are letting on, looking foolish will the be the least of your problems.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

It's like some people say, when the outbreak is here and everybody is rushing to the store, thats when you know you have acted to slow.

Yup.

It really comes down to behavioral psychology that is common in all supply/demand economics...

By the time you realize you should have bought that great NYSE stock, the price has already moved too high and it's too late.
By the time you realize that Fantasy Football player is a really productive player, it's too late. He's gone.
By the time you realize you need water, masks, whatever, it will be too late to get the items through normal channels.
By the time you realize you should have done [enter whatever], it's too late-- once the masses are involved in the rush, it's too late.

I'm not saying that you should go do this stuff, but if you are going to "prepare" or "react" -- you want to do it before the masses.

 

[biophase]

Thank you, I appreciate this information and will shop based on what you have said.

Ok, I have to ask. What are you going to do with those hazmat suits? I understand stocking up on supplies, etc... but would you wear that suit outside your home? Why would you be going outside your home?

The customer demographic of my business has a decent amount of doomsday preppers. So in dealing with them and also watching the shows and research, I had actually dedicated a storage unit to supplies a few years back. Luckily, being in Arizona my home happens to have an abundance of two resources, water and propane. So all I needed to stock up on was food and supplies. Haven't read much on ebola, but I'm assuming it cannot contaminate water?

I think worse case scenario is that you quarantine your home from the outside world. If you don't need food deliveries, gas, etc... then you don't need to see anyone else. Just become a hermit for a few months. This would be a much better solution than getting a hazmat suit.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

And all of those deaths are the result of poor lifestyle choices, a conscious choice to engage in a repeated behavior. Ebola is not my choice, but if I do get infected, most likely it will because of someone else's shit-poor choice-- not mine.

 

[LightHouse]

Then I will start buying supplies and making "what-if" plans.

Problem is, it is too late a that point. We had a brief conversation about this in PHX, i remember MJ being part of the convo and I can not remember who else. But essentially, what is the down side to having this stuff stored? Gloves and masks do not go bad... so why not get some and have them, just in case?

It doesn't make you a "prepper", it just means you have means when the time comes. You don't have to fantasize about the world ending to just have some supplies in case anything happens.

 

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[DeletedUser394]

Ebola is super hard to catch.

I would argue this is still the case. 70 or so support staff interacted with him when he was most infectious in hospital, and 2 people got it.

Not to mention all of the people he came into contact with before that who were completely unprotected, and nobody has it.

In Spain, only 1 nurse was infected, and as of yet nobody in the general population is showing symptoms.

Need to keep things in perspective.

 

[Jakeeck]

I kind of feel bad saying this, but since it's in the US I assume more effort will be put into (1) preventing it, and (2) coming up with a cure or better treatment for those who get it.

 

[ChickenHawk]

If someone throws up on you and they have aids you have 0% chance of getting it, aids is in the blood and in seemen. Ebola is in your saliva, sweat, blood, semen, vomit, etc.

Yes. Which means that if someone with Ebola sneezes on you, you're in danger of being infected. Or if some fevered Ebola patient is sweating in an emergency-room chair, and you happen to sit in that chair next, you're in danger of being infected. Or some Ebola patient wipes their nose with their hand, and uses the doorknob right before you, you're in danger of being infected. I'm pretty sure they don't have to barf in your face in order for you to be in danger.

Time will tell. And of course, I'm a Gen-Xer, and thus, more likely to be a cynical bastard at heart, so take that for what it's worth.

 

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[theag]

Somehow the whole ebola news missed me until now. Too busy. Will forget about it again now and get back to work.

 

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[Mike Kavanagh]

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/transmission/

When an infection does occur in humans, the virus can be spread in several ways to others. Ebola is spread through direct contact (through broken skin or mucous membranes) with

• blood or body fluids (including but not limited to urine, saliva, feces, vomit, and semen) of a person who is sick with Ebola
• objects (like needles and syringes) that have been contaminated with the virus
• infected animals
• Ebola is not spread through the air or by water, or in general, food. However, in Africa, Ebola may be spread as a result of handling bushmeat (wild animals hunted for food) and contact with infected bats.

 

[eqttrdr]

Distrust, mistrust, no trust. Be afraid of everything and everyone, because you better believe they're out to get you guys lol. Militias, bunkers, camo. Them zombies be comin'

the USA was founded on the exact principles of distrust of goverment... THAT's why....

 

[Writer]

Wow- You are actually excusing that the cdc itself patented ebola viruses without questioning the fact its now been unleashed on people in a relatively big way. Lets recap- the cdc likely owns the virus because it and its team created it

Morality check isle 7

It is now evident that you have no clue how patents work and what viruses are. You make the assumption that patent = money. Or copyright = money.
It is also evident that you don't know why patents and copyright exist.
Unleashed on people... Please. Movies ain't science.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

So this nurse...

A) Takes her temperature before boarding a plane (showing premeditated knowledge of her vulnerability)
B) Sees a fever at 99.5
C) Decides that the fever and that possible Ebola infection is not as important as visiting Cleveland.
D) Boards plane putting innocent people (and children) at risk.

Folks, this is the exact thing I spoke about above in my post above about my trip to Belize. Self-absorbed, self-entitled STUPIDITY will spread this thing. And you just witnessed ACT 1 .

What could they have possibly done to get infected?

I suspect in the removal of the clothing.

at what point do I ban my husband from working and just sit in the house?

My GF is a nurse and we were just talking about this last night.

 

[Trill2b]

That's at advanced stages of the virus though. There was an interview a few days ago by one of the medical researchers who discovered Ebola in the 70s, where he said he would happily sit next to an Ebola victim on the bus, assuming they were still in the early stages of the virus. I'll try to find the link. But basically something along of the lines of in the early stages the virus tries to multiply itself as much as possible, so it tends to stay within the victim, whereas in the later stages it is almost excreting itself, making itself much easier to catch.

Obviously if you're picking your teeth next to piles of Ebola-ridden blood you're at risk.

I would be interested in hearing what the general "level of fear" was on the ground in Nigeria though. I know you guys had significantly more victims than the US does currently, but still managed to stop it. Were people as freaked out about it there as some of the people here are?

Note that I said ... "a SICK Ebola carrier...". We were all veeerrry afraid. That's why we fought it with all we had. Nobody shook hands with anyone, even friends. Even in church. No hugging, no high fives. Every office and health center had handwash points outside the buildings, hand sanitizers were the highest selling product anywhere. Everyone used it severally during the day...