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Kak

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This was a great article for me. I don't make a habit of bombing business relationships, but I sure want to sometimes.

People will let you down. That is fact. How you deal with it separates the leaders from the hotheads.

I voice my displeasure with Warren Buffet often, but this is sage advice.

 

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Imgal

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This is really sage advice. The one thing that has destroyed relationships in business and my personal life is not being emotionally mature enough to breathe instead of immediately reacting.

It's also important to realise that doesn't always mean exploding with anger in the moment. It's been just as damaging when you don't take the time to pause and reflect instead of immediately taking offense / beginning the snowballing effect of holding a grudge. I've ruined far more relationships by allowing my negative feelings about someone build and build.
 

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The relationships I have with some of my favorite clients started out with me wanting to tell them to kick rocks. Sometimes my job is to muck through the bs until we get to the gold...
 

Imgal

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The relationships I have with some of my favorite clients started out with me wanting to tell them to kick rocks. Sometimes my job is to muck through the bs until we get to the gold...
That is very true. I think that after a while in business your bs radar gets really tuned in and you can figure out what is the bs worth wading through and in which cases you should run for the hills.
 

GigMistress

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Years ago, a friend who had been fired (not for the first time) called and asked me how I would have handled the situation that led to her termination and ended with something like, "But everyone is different. There's nothing magical about my approach," and she said, "Well, I think there must be, because you're just as stubborn and opinionated as I am, but you never get fired."

The epiphany point for her in that conversation was when she described what her boss had said and her (admittedly ill-advised) response and then followed it up with "But I couldn't just let her insult me."

I said, "Sure you can. You don't have to care enough about her opinion of you to get sidetracked into an argument."

LONG moment of silence. That had simply never occurred to her. Then, I suggested to her that with the worst of "opponents," declining to engage in the conflict was a bit of a superpower, since that type of person doesn't know how to change gears and ends up looking like an idiot ranting alone while you remain cool and professional and keep calmly circling back to the point. That was about 15 years ago, and she's changed jobs a few times since, but always on her own terms.

I suspect Buffet's point has more of an element of human kindness in it than what I've described here, but it is worth noting that restraint can also be a powerful weapon.
 

Imgal

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LONG moment of silence. That had simply never occurred to her. Then, I suggested to her that with the worst of "opponents," declining to engage in the conflict was a bit of a superpower, since that type of person doesn't know how to change gears and ends up looking like an idiot ranting alone while you remain cool and professional and keep calmly circling back to the point. That was about 15 years ago, and she's changed jobs a few times since, but always on her own terms.
This 100 times over! When you put it into action, it is a GLORIOUS moment as they have nowhere to go with their ranting. The speed at which it extinguishes them and can often lead to them respecting you a whole lot more (and not quite knowing why) will try blow you away.
 

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This was a great article for me. I don't make a habit of bombing business relationships relationships, but I sure want to sometimes.

People will let you down. That is fact. How you deal with it separates the leaders from the hotheads.

I voice my displeasure with Warren Buffet often, but this is sage advice.

Thanks for the article!
You have no idea how this advice to keep your calm saved me a good number of times.

Holding back from blasting a crappy client about their shitty treatment for 1 day, helped me to calmly and tactfully discuss my withdrawal from the job with him.

Result: Got paid money that I didn't expect ( a few grand for a couple hours' of work), plus a decent Upwork rating- 3.9 instead of 1 or 2.

This works for personal life as well.

For some reasons, the family had a huge row recently, and there were many times I just wanted to move out and never come back, ever.

But I stuck it through, listened to both side, did my best to negotiate differences and compromises (the first few chapters of Never Split the Difference are GOLD, especially on what tone of voice to use, and how to extract and voice out all parties' motives and pain-points)...and at least today, they aren't tearing at each other's throats.
 

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This was a great article for me. I don't make a habit of bombing business relationships relationships, but I sure want to sometimes.

People will let you down. That is fact. How you deal with it separates the leaders from the hotheads.

I voice my displeasure with Warren Buffet often, but this is sage advice.

Ironically, I was kicked out of the building where Buffet has his office in Omaha. His security guard (being a dick) had me FUMING so I ended up calling him a fat fk! lmao
 

GigMistress

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I struggle with the emotional control. Obviously, I know that controlling is the right thing to do, but in the moment, it’s easier said than done. Applies in so many areas of life.
My friend had the same issue. That is why I made the suggestion to her that restraint could be a weapon. If you can internalize the feeling that you ARE fighting back and ARE gaining the upper hand in the discussion by remaining calm and professional, it may alleviate that. It did for her.

Of course, ideally you will reach a point where you are actually not reacting emotionally to people whose opinions you have no reason to give credence to, but until then, perhaps you could try staring placidly at the other person while thinking, "Ha! F you! You have no idea that I'm in control here and you're making an a$$ of yourself while I give nothing back."
 

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Real Deal Denver

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My friend had the same issue. That is why I made the suggestion to her that restraint could be a weapon. If you can internalize the feeling that you ARE fighting back and ARE gaining the upper hand in the discussion by remaining calm and professional, it may alleviate that. It did for her.

Of course, ideally you will reach a point where you are actually not reacting emotionally to people whose opinions you have no reason to give credence to, but until then, perhaps you could try staring placidly at the other person while thinking, "Ha! F you! You have no idea that I'm in control here and you're making an a$$ of yourself while I give nothing back."
Not to be sexist, but let's call it the way it is - that's a skill women seem to be particularly good at. Let's call it what it is - passive confrontation and control. Or, so they think, anyway.

Be careful with this. Several times I have just pulled the plug on good relationships because of the other parties refusal to work things out. It didn't start out bad, but they seemed to enjoy holding back their participation, mistakenly thinking there were in control - very much like you describe - except I did not look like an idiot in the process. Sometimes, to make progress, a push is required to get results. If everyone was intelligent and mature, there would be no need for managers - but that's not the case.

That technique works for a while. Until it doesn't. Then, to their surprise, I broke the stalemate and just gave up. Game over. They win if that makes them happy. The point is - they didn't win - and neither did I. But they stood their ground - for a while, anyway.

The older (more experienced) I get the less tolerance I have for egos and games. Somewhere along the way, I came to realize that I am trading a day of my life today for whatever happens today - and that has dramatically changed my opinion of people that want to play games and/or waste time.

I'm much happier, much more productive, and much more successful, now because I play the game to win - without going into overtime. Win - move on - and yes, it is possible for everyone to be happy in the process. Yet I still encounter the game players. Two days ago some clown told me he only had five more minutes to talk to me because his lunch was coming up. I immediately said to have a good lunch and brought the conversation to a very fast close - no sale for him - no future contact allowed either. He doesn't DESERVE my business. Ah - it's so nice not having to reach to make things work like I used to do. I will meet someone 75% of the way - and if that's not good enough - goodbye.

I don't insult people, nor do I get into a pissing match. But I do require that things move forward. I just thought you would like to hear "the other side of the story" that your friend might have not considered. To her, she was being attacked. I doubt it was that at all. If and when she takes the stance to over-deliver, she will gladly be receiving praise. Every business needs and every manager wants, good people to work with, whether they are workers or customers. Make it so.
 
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Kak

Kak

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The older (more experienced) I get the less tolerance I have for egos and games. Somewhere along the way, I came to realize that I am trading a day of my life today for whatever happens today - and that has dramatically changed my opinion of people that want to play games and/or waste time.

I'm much happier, much more productive, and much more successful, now because I play the game to win - without going into overtime. Win - move on - and yes, it is possible for everyone to be happy in the process. Yet I still encounter the game players. Two days ago some clown told me he only had five more minutes to talk to me because his lunch was coming up. I immediately said to have a good lunch and brought the conversation to a very fast close - no sale for him - no future contact allowed either. He doesn't DESERVE my business. Ah - it's so nice not having to reach to make things work like I used to do. I will meet someone 75% of the way - and if that's not good enough - goodbye.

I don't insult people, nor do I get into a pissing match. But I do require that things move forward. I just thought you would like to hear "the other side of the story" that your friend might have not considered. To her, she was being attacked. I doubt it was that at all. If and when she takes the stance to over-deliver, she will gladly be receiving praise. Every business needs and every manager wants, good people to work with, whether they are workers or customers. Make it so.
Agreed the game playing is horrendous. I love to just be as straightforward and have as much candor as possible.

I just wish for once I could just send this email:

"I have something you guys use. We have a good price and it will be worth your while to see if we can improve your bottom line. Let's discuss.

Regards,

Kak"

@MJ DeMarco I nominate RDD for a featured post.
 
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BellaPippin

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Not to be sexist, but let's call it the way it is - that's a skill women seem to be particularly good at. Let's call it what it is - passive confrontation and control. Or, so they think, anyway.

Be careful with this. Several times I have just pulled the plug on good relationships because of the other parties refusal to work things out. It didn't start out bad, but they seemed to enjoy holding back their participation, mistakenly thinking there were in control - very much like you describe - except I did not look like an idiot in the process. Sometimes, to make progress, a push is required to get results. If everyone was intelligent and mature, there would be no need for managers - but that's not the case.

That technique works for a while. Until it doesn't. Then, to their surprise, I broke the stalemate and just gave up. Game over. They win if that makes them happy. The point is - they didn't win - and neither did I. But they stood their ground - for a while, anyway.

The older (more experienced) I get the less tolerance I have for egos and games. Somewhere along the way, I came to realize that I am trading a day of my life today for whatever happens today - and that has dramatically changed my opinion of people that want to play games and/or waste time.

I'm much happier, much more productive, and much more successful, now because I play the game to win - without going into overtime. Win - move on - and yes, it is possible for everyone to be happy in the process. Yet I still encounter the game players. Two days ago some clown told me he only had five more minutes to talk to me because his lunch was coming up. I immediately said to have a good lunch and brought the conversation to a very fast close - no sale for him - no future contact allowed either. He doesn't DESERVE my business. Ah - it's so nice not having to reach to make things work like I used to do. I will meet someone 75% of the way - and if that's not good enough - goodbye.

I don't insult people, nor do I get into a pissing match. But I do require that things move forward. I just thought you would like to hear "the other side of the story" that your friend might have not considered. To her, she was being attacked. I doubt it was that at all. If and when she takes the stance to over-deliver, she will gladly be receiving praise. Every business needs and every manager wants, good people to work with, whether they are workers or customers. Make it so.
You lost me at "Not to be sexist, but ______"

Obviously those weren't good relationships to begin with and you've learnt from it.

You're generalizing.

I know people just like that from the opposite sex as well. And I'm not going around suggesting men are good at X or Y.

Because it's sexist.
 
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Kak

Kak

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You lost me at "Not to be sexist, but ______"
Yeah, agreed on that one. What came later wasn't even sexist, but he made it sound like it was going to be.

That's why I cut it in half for the nomination.
 

BellaPippin

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Yeah, agreed on that one. What came later wasn't even sexist, but he made it sound like it was going to be.

That's why I cut it in half for the nomination.
Yes I agree with the excerpt you chose. That is valuable.
 
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Real Deal Denver

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You lost me at "Not to be sexist, but ______"

Obviously those weren't good relationships to begin with and you've learnt from it.

You're generalizing.

I know people just like that from the opposite sex as well. And I'm not going around suggesting men are good at X or Y.

Because it's sexist.
It is sexist because women are not only well known for this technique but are very skilled at it. Men and women are different - and it's not BAD to compare those differences. Get used to it. If you can live out the rest of your life without making a generalization, then you may indeed be near perfect. I'm not, and I don't worry about it. And I'm not going to apologize for it. Ooooooooo.

Same for race. I don't recall EVER having a discussion about race with any white person I know, but to black people race is a very big issue. Is that racist? No - that's the way it is - fact.

If a trait does not apply to you - great. You get a cookie. BUT if you have the trait of POINTING OUT how some opinion of some certain TYPE of people acts a certain way - THAT'S a trait in ITSELF! Ha Ha - by trying to avoid being "opinionated" you create yourself as being opinionated - and that's fine, by the way. Think about that! It's kind of deep, isn't it?

Can YOU have the OPINION that you hate people that have opinions?

We all have opinions - and there's NOTHING wrong with that. You can't escape that completely. You are human and you have OPINIONS about things. So go ahead and attack what I've said - that's your opinion and certainly your right - and I'm perfectly OK with that.

Funny. Thanks for a moment of entertainment.
 

GigMistress

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Not to be sexist, but let's call it the way it is - that's a skill women seem to be particularly good at. Let's call it what it is - passive confrontation and control. Or, so they think, anyway.
It seems that your sexist assumptions have caused you to entirely misinterpret everything I've said. I'll try again in response to your various comments below, but as a starting point I would like to say that throughout my 30+ year career I have consistently been told by colleagues of both sexes, employers, friends and family that I "don't think like a woman" and that the reason I don't experience a lot of the gender bias many women complain of is that I have a "male brain," whatever the hell that means. So, pros or cons of what I've said aside, it's extremely unlikely that it has anything whatsoever to do with my vagina.

Be careful with this. Several times I have just pulled the plug on good relationships because of the other parties refusal to work things out. It didn't start out bad, but they seemed to enjoy holding back their participation, mistakenly thinking there were in control - very much like you describe - except I did not look like an idiot in the process. Sometimes, to make progress, a push is required to get results. If everyone was intelligent and mature, there would be no need for managers - but that's not the case.
There's so much wrong with this short paragraph I barely know where to start, but I'll go with the assertion that your second sentence is entirely false, since what you describe is in no way a "good relationship."

Second, the power game you describe here is NOTHING like what I described. What I suggested was refraining from engaging in ranting, shouting, name-calling, finger-pointing, etc and consistently redirecting the conversation to the point at hand. In short, to WORKING THINGS OUT instead of getting caught up in someone else's drama.

That technique works for a while. Until it doesn't. Then, to their surprise, I broke the stalemate and just gave up. Game over. They win if that makes them happy. The point is - they didn't win - and neither did I. But they stood their ground - for a while, anyway.

The older (more experienced) I get the less tolerance I have for egos and games. Somewhere along the way, I came to realize that I am trading a day of my life today for whatever happens today - and that has dramatically changed my opinion of people that want to play games and/or waste time.
It's funny that you say this, while consistently speaking in terms of the "game" and "winning." I personally don't enter into a conversation to win, and I find it's rarely productive to engage with someone who is focused on winning the conversation.

The person playing power games is the one wasting time and energy. I simply opt not to waste my time and energy alongside them, and to stay entirely focused on the issue that needs to be solved. If you find that offensive, consider it game, or see it as a strategy that will ultimately backfire, that raises serious concerns for me.

It's worth noting that I am 53 years old, have had success in multiple fields, and have never once had an experience in which remaining steadfastly calm and focused on the issue "backfired." If it did, I would likely conclude that the person with whom I was attempting to communicate was either mentally ill or 11 and so not someone I should be engaged in business with.

I'm much happier, much more productive, and much more successful, now because I play the game to win - without going into overtime. Win - move on - and yes, it is possible for everyone to be happy in the process. Yet I still encounter the game players. Two days ago some clown told me he only had five more minutes to talk to me because his lunch was coming up. I immediately said to have a good lunch and brought the conversation to a very fast close - no sale for him - no future contact allowed either. He doesn't DESERVE my business. Ah - it's so nice not having to reach to make things work like I used to do. I will meet someone 75% of the way - and if that's not good enough - goodbye.
And I'm much happier, more productive and more successful having opted out of playing games at all and not seeing my interactions with other humans as something to win.

Your story here is funny to me, because you're saying "no game players" while proudly describing how you played a game that to me appears childish and pointless. If you get something out of that, go for it. But, that doesn't mean that people who choose to engage rationally and without the need to "win"are doing something wrong.

I don't insult people, nor do I get into a pissing match.
I strongly suspect that people you engage with would say otherwise--your assumptions here are very insulting and your descriptions of how you seize power in small situations that don't matter at all could serve as illustrations of what "pissing match" means.

But, again, to each his own. You want to win. I want to solve problems. Different approaches for different goals.
 

Real Deal Denver

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I have consistently been told by colleagues of both sexes, employers, friends and family that I "don't think like a woman" and that the reason I don't experience a lot of the gender bias many women complain of is that I have a "male brain," whatever the hell that means.
Sexist pigs. You associate with people like that? Why?

Or, maybe they have a formed opinion about differences between men and women. No harm, no foul. Get over it. It's not a bad thing.

Laughable.
 

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This was, actually, one of the biggest tips I took from reading "How to Win Friends and Influence People"

Quote from the book itself:

"Don't criticize, condemn, or complain. Human nature does not like to admit fault. When people are criticized or humiliated, they rarely respond well and will often become defensive and resent their critic. To handle people well, we must never criticize, condemn or complain because it will never result in the behavior we desire. "
 

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I guess that MJ should add gender biases to the list of forbidden topics.
 

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My tenant went on vacation for a week and didn't tell me. I ended up getting my rent check late on the 8th but let it slide because they are usually on time and were patient with me when I applied epoxy to the garage floor.

The smell was bad for about a week and they stayed elsewhere during that time. Yes I notified them ahead of time and they were ok with the idea, neither of us realized the smell would linger. Yes I reimbursed them pro-rata for that month.

I was tempted to lash out because of the late rent but they also just had a kid and it was their first vacation as a family - lots of stress.

Patience and delaying judgements/anger is a skill, people are human and have their own issues. We do not need to take everyone's opinion personally. Sometimes people are just shitty bosses and don't know how to manage, more a reflection of them than you.

It is also helpful to look at a person's baseline. If they're an a**hole to everyone then it probably isn't you and striking back is probably a waste of energy.

Other times people have bad days and have pent up emotional energy and taken it out on the wrong people.

PS now I have next months rent check ahead of time too
 
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SarahO

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My friend had the same issue. That is why I made the suggestion to her that restraint could be a weapon. If you can internalize the feeling that you ARE fighting back and ARE gaining the upper hand in the discussion by remaining calm and professional, it may alleviate that. It did for her.

Of course, ideally you will reach a point where you are actually not reacting emotionally to people whose opinions you have no reason to give credence to, but until then, perhaps you could try staring placidly at the other person while thinking, "Ha! F you! You have no idea that I'm in control here and you're making an a$$ of yourself while I give nothing back."
I do yoga and meditation. Not sure it’s working:rofl:
 

BellaPippin

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So go ahead and attack what I've said
Looks like you are calling for a pissing contest. Sorry, not gonna humor you. I only got facts, not pee to argue with.

It is sexist because women are not only well known for this technique but are very skilled at it. Men and women are different - and it's not BAD to compare those differences
sex·ist

characterized by or showing prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

You are showing prejudice and generalization in your comment, not just stating something like "men have more capacity to build more muscular growth than women" "people of X race have more incidence of Y disease" or something of the kind. Go ahead and prove your statement with supporting facts other than "your personal experience".

Get used to it.
Nah. I'll point it out, because it may be your opinion, but it's also a fallacy, and I don't get crap spoon fed and don't question it. Your unhealthy relationships don't reflect the rest of us out there. You're just prejudiced and resentful. You will pass down your retrograde stereotypes and perpetuate them instead of teaching younger people to be more emotional inteligent, like Warren did. This article/topic was not about gender at all, you brought it up on your own and there's ladies on this forum you don't know and have no right to paint in any fake like that you choose.

If you can live out the rest of your life without making a generalization, then you may indeed be near perfect. I'm not, and I don't worry about it. And I'm not going to apologize for it. Ooooooooo.
Nah I'm not, and don't worry about being perfect either. But when I do make a generalization I acknowledge it, apologize and move on. Because my mind isn't square and scripted. It's open for improvement.

BUT if you have the trait of POINTING OUT how some opinion of some certain TYPE of people acts a certain way - THAT'S a trait in ITSELF!
Yeah the trait of pointing out invalid and unsound arguments. I see no difference between what you said and "It is a well known fact vaccines cause autism, I had the flu after I had my flu shot. You mad I have an opinion? Get over it"

Congratulations on having an opinion, it's super biased though. I have as much right to point it out as you have to have it. Get over it. :)
 

BizyDad

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Great advice. I have a variation of this I do.

Just this morning I was going to send a "go to hell" type email. The guy deserves it. I got the words out to move on with my day... aaaaaaaand I saved it to my drafts.

I'll give it thought, maybe I'll send it Monday. Maybe I'll rewrite it. Maybe I'll forgive the guy for being a self sabotaging idiot who makes my job harder. Maybe I'll use this moment to up my rate on him, since he creates more work for me.

I don't have to decide today. The Monday version of me will probably handle it much much better, faster, more efficiently.

And the Friday version of me has been a lot happier and more productive than if I had actually sent that email and instigated the fight.

The write it down and save it for later tactic has definitely helped me since I implemented it 2 years ago.

I'm thinking some people maybe missed the whole point of the original post...
 

BellaPippin

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I'm thinking some people maybe missed the whole point of the original post...
Well I mean, it's a very well known fact that men tend to miss the point of things, and are very skilled at it too. /s ;)

The point of the article is to be emotionally intelligent and not lose temper and say stupid stuff. Not have someone stereotype and belittle you and your forum peers and suck it up. Sorry not sorry.
 

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