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HOT TOPIC Why I despise Pickup Artistry, and how to have a fulfilling sex life.

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Bhanu

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Hi Chris ,
Thanks for enlightening post.

Anyway great write up ,showing crazy times we are living in .
 
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ChrisV

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Now your remedy to the needy guy who has never had a girlfriend in his life or can't even get a girl to make out with on a night out is: Instead of pretending to be cocky/funny/confident, JUST BE CONFIDENT.
:O

That's rather silly. We would all love to have confidence oozing out of our ears, but it's not exactly teachable. It takes a long time to become confident in yourself, you have to face your fears, you have to become unaffected by it.
It's not though, if you real my second post.

I think we need to break down the work 'confidence' and make a distinction between Self-Efficacy and Self-Esteem.

Self-efficacy is a person's ability to do a task. Self-Esteem is a person's perceived self worth. When talking to girls, it's a combination of both, but Self-Esteem is a much larger factor. If someone is stuttering and stammoring while talking to a hot girl, it's not so much because he doesn't have 'practice' it's because he doesn't value himself in relation to her. If you were talking to a homeless person you wouldn't be stuttering and stammering and worrying what he thought. Those behaviors come from feeling you're in the presence of someone superior. It's a self esteem issue. Sure practice has something to do with it, but Self-Esteem is the biggie.

"Nice Guy" syndrome is exactly that. You feel like you have to defer to superior men and women.

And that's the point. Why is she 'out of your league.' Why do you value your league so little and hers so much? Who defines 'below average'... what makes you feel like you're below average? Why do you look for validation outside yourself.

I'll quote Eckhart Tolle on this:

A beggar had been sitting by the side of a road for over thirty years. One day a stranger walked by. "Spare some change?" mumbled the beggar, mechanically holding out his old baseball cap. "I have nothing to give you," said the stranger. Then he asked: "What's that you are sitting on?" "Nothing," replied the beggar. "Just an old box. I have been sitting on it for as long as I can remember." "Ever looked inside?" asked the stranger. "No," said the beggar. "What's the point? There's nothing in there." "Have a look inside," insisted the stranger. The beggar managed to pry open the lid. With astonishment, disbelief, and elation, he saw that the box was filled with gold.

I am that stranger who has nothing to give you and who is telling you to look inside. Not inside any box, as in the parable, but somewhere even closer: inside yourself.

"But I am not a beggar," I can hear you say.

Those who have not found their true wealth, which is the radiant joy of Being and the deep, unshakable peace that comes with it, are beggars, even if they have great material wealth. They are looking outside for scraps of pleasure or fulfillment, for validation, security, or love, while they have a treasure within that not only includes all those things but is infinitely greater than anything the world can offer.
That feeling people get when a hot girl is stroking their ego? Someone with high Self-Esteem feels like that all the time. They don't seek approval, because they just approve of themselves. And a side effect of that is that girls throw themselves at them as well.
 
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Brian Suh

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Went into pua for a bit and got some good out of it. Of course a lot of it is scummy but you have to filter the gold from the shit. Basically the good things you get is stop seeking approval, do what makes YOU happy and make you laugh. Stop being ashamed of your desires. Apply this to all areas of life and watch your life skyrocket
 

bibbysoka

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Dude my thread got moved into the mens locker which i dont have access to. I created a thread about something similar, I ended up going on a date with this girl and it went great. and you actually came in and helped me with good advice by telling me: be confident but honest and present. thanks man. F*ck johnny boy
 

Real Deal Denver

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Dude my thread got moved into the mens locker which i dont have access to. I created a thread about something similar, I ended up going on a date with this girl and it went great. and you actually came in and helped me with good advice by telling me: be confident but honest and present. thanks man. F*ck johnny boy
@Johnny boy is one of the top contributors here and is my personal favorite, whether his posts relate to something I am directly involved in or not. I've never encountered someone so prolific, so honest, and damn near genius when it comes to business acumen.

It's too bad that you need advice in the first place, and it's incredibly sad that you slam one of the best contributors here. I rate you accordingly, so back at ya.
 
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ChrisV

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Dude my thread got moved into the mens locker which i dont have access to. I created a thread about something similar, I ended up going on a date with this girl and it went great. and you actually came in and helped me with good advice by telling me: be confident but honest and present.
No problem man.

I wonder why you can't see that forum. Try setting your sex in your profile.

And wow, I'm really glad things went well with that chick... congrats!
 

bibbysoka

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@Johnny boy is one of the top contributors here and is my personal favorite, whether his posts relate to something I am directly involved in or not. I've never encountered someone so prolific, so honest, and damn near genius when it comes to business acumen.

It's too bad that you need advice in the first place, and it's incredibly sad that you slam one of the best contributors here. I rate you accordingly, so back at ya.
This forum is all about advice exchange. For you to say that its too bad that I needed advice is pretty sad mate.

Dont take things personal.
 

Rosebudd

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It's not though, if you real my second post.

....If you were talking to a homeless person you wouldn't be stuttering and stammering and worrying what he thought. Those behaviors come from feeling you're in the presence of someone superior. It's a self esteem issue. Sure practice has something to do with it, but Self-Esteem is the biggie.
I'm not disagreeing with you here, but society drills into our heads from a very early age that women, in particular very beautiful women, only go for a certain type of guy. I am to assume you never struggled getting girls, and man, good for you! Because not being able to get a single date in a whole year makes you feel like you are a disgusting, useless human being!

You identified the problem, and i'm in accordance with you, but you haven't provided the right remedy. Reason why we try to "fake it until you make it" is because while you are faking it (i mean the confidence, the swagger, the vocal tonality, body language, etc... I never told anyone to lie to girls to seduce them, that's pathetic) you are also working on making yourself a MAN OF VALUE. I told you on my previous post on how the only reason I had the will to quit my job is because I felt like I deserved more than a 9-5 and went after my goals, and studying seduction taught me to go for what I truly desired in life. I still have my own issues to work on, but I am 500x more confident in myself as a person than when I started in the journey. I now read more books, work on my body and health, took up new hobbies, became better with people in general to a point where I tell people at parties that i'm extremely introverted and they all laugh, because they can't believe it. But it's the little steps along the way.

One of the exercises I did was embodying a persona. Like Don Draper or James Bond or whatever and when I went out I pretended to be that person, using the same mannerisms, vocal tonality and etc... and it really worked! I wasn't being true to myself but after a while you realize....hey...that's ME talking to her, that was ME getting her number, that was ME going on a date with her. As you're starting out, these little rewards mean everything.

I just ask that you think of the guys you are bashing and where they came from and why we decided to take up these studies. The flashy douchebags don't speak for the whole community.


"Nice Guy" syndrome is exactly that. You feel like you have to defer to superior men and women.
Right. I believe "Nice Guys" are manipulative and weak men. When I said those men were nice people I meant in the original sense of the word, genuine guys that were just looking for a real and solid relationship with one woman. But if you've been in the dating scene as I have, you'll know that a lot of women love to prey on guys who aren't sure of themselves, or confident. A lot of men end up in abusive relationships because they're afraid to leave and never find anyone again. You don't hear about it because they're afraid to speak out and have people making fun of them. I read a lot of e-mails from them and it's really sad. Like I said, it's sad you chose to bash people trying to help others and just labeling regular people like me "psychopaths and creeps". I treat all women in my life with the utmost respect and decency and never had to bullshit anyone to get something, I am honest with every girl I meet, sometimes things just don't work out, or we want different things in life, but it's really upsetting to hear that a few men give such a bad rep to this community.
 
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ChrisV

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I am to assume you never struggled getting girls, and man, good for you!
No I sucked with girls in High School lol

And furthermore, regarding the 'psychopath' or 'creep' thing sometimes a little selective focusing is necessary to make a point. Sometimes you have to point to the most extreme end of things, and realize there are shades of grey. I don't think that every guy that wants to attract better women is a 'psychopath' or a 'creep,' but on the extreme end it is psychopathic. Even the term 'pickup.' Going to 'pick up' chicks. You're picking them up? What's wrong with meeting women. Some of those guys ever refer to women as 'Targets.' Yo well your 'target' just lost her grandmother last week and is depressed and can't think straight so she's at risk of flunking out of college. But she probably just needs another 'neg.'

I'm aware that there are shades of grey and levels of manipulation and it's not all evil. Actually, most of it probably isn't.

But aside from all that, on a functional that whole dating community seems to be obsessed with symptoms. Body language? Voice tone? Those are all symptoms of confidence. People who have high self esteem do that stuff naturally. I mean sure you can do it that way and approach 1000 girls and fake it til you make it and suck it up.. or you can go to Therapy for a few months, and actually build real self esteem. Self-Esteem that's not dependent on how a girl reacts. The irony is that people who are happy with themselves like that naturally have girls throwing themselves at them. Because they have real confidence and genuine confident body language, and they're actually assertive so they don't talk little betamales.

I've read "The Game" and after everything I remember how Neil Strauss spoke to Mystery's mom and she basically said "Listen... Mystery's dad abandoned us at a young age.. now I think he does all this 'girls' stuff to fill an empty void." Those are the types of voids that Therapy fills, which builds real confidence.

Again, I'm totally with hooking up with pretty girls. I really am. I just don't think building a false self is the best way to do it. Like I know totally nerdy guys who love The Avengers that have girls all over them. The point is to accept who you are and ERASE the social conditioning rather that adding a new layer on top of that. And that's what things like Therapy, Mindfulness and Tolle does.
 
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Bearcorp

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I'm not disagreeing with you here, but society drills into our heads from a very early age that women, in particular very beautiful women, only go for a certain type of guy.
Society drills into us to get a job, get a mortgage, work for a boss, go to college etc etc. Don't be limited in your beliefs, or do, if thats the way you want to roll.
 

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Rosebudd

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I never discounted therapy as a way to help people overcome their issues. It's very valuable for sure. It is a tool, just how learning to communicate effectively with women, is a tool. I know people are big in the Eckart Tolle guy, i'm personally not, so I will not mention anything about that.

Confident people do those things naturally. But what do you tell the guy who isn't yet confident? Go to therapy and just sit in your room until then? There are many tools to just help guys communicate and behave more effectively. Most guys who seek help are introverts (at least 70% ! ), there is a reason why it's mostly introverts. We don't know how to really express ourselves, we are awkward, we are shy and timid. I haven't really found an extrovert guy that has really serious issues getting girls, they're usually always out there, even if they're insecure, they can play it off like they're the life of the party, do some really dumb stuff to seek attention and some girls will be drawn to them.

Success is not whether you get a girl in bed or not, it is whether you managed to go for what you wanted. Whenever you see a pretty girl, you get that fire in your stomach, that drive to at least give it a shot and seeing where things go. I know not every woman will be interested in me, and that's fine, but it's taking that first step that matters, eventually, one of the girls I talk to, will be interested in me, but I have to put myself in a position where I can at least meet them.
Same in dating as in business. As long as you're trying and learning, eventually you'll get there.

Talking to girls, in general, is a good way of just learning to get comfortable with the opposite sex. I don't see a point in going out to talk to girls I'm not interested in because I wouldn't want to mislead them either and waste their time.
I am a straight male and I am always trying to find the right girl for me, as most of us are, that's why we want to meet as many girls as we can, so when the girl of your dreams comes by you, you will have the means to at least have a shot at getting her interested in return.

These days I still use a lot of tools. I learned how to tell captivating stories. Learned how to give a proper massage. Learned some astrology. You may laugh and say that's ridiculous, that i'm just covering up for something, that I don't need all that bullshit, and honestly, I don't NEED it. But why not? In my head it makes me more interesting, it gives me more depth and if I believe it is interesting, she will too.

I wish I could be a natural like you and not have to resort to these things, I wish I was born a 6 pack ab having Chad with a chiseled jawline. I wasn't. I was born a nerdy introverted fat kid with really shitty coarse hair and crooked teeth, so confidence for me wouldn't knock on my door, I had to work on myself. Learn new things, become a more interesting man, learn how to talk, learn how to captivate, learn how to read people and calibrate situations, learn how to diffuse bad situations when she gets offended or some jealous guy comes trying to fight you...etc... all these things I learned by studying the art of seduction, and that's why i'm so passionate about it, because it changed my life completely.

With the "power" that you acquire, you can use it to manipulate girls and become the douchebag I despised in high school, or become a cool guy that girls naturally want to hang out with but that also knows how to say no and be a man. It's up to each individual to choose which path to take in life.
 

Real Deal Denver

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This forum is all about advice exchange. For you to say that its too bad that I needed advice is pretty sad mate.

Dont take things personal.
LOL

It's not all about you.

You were slammed - a tiny bit - because you slammed @Johnny boy. How did you miss that? Possibly because you can't see how you treat others? Instead, you only see the comment that was directed at you.

It's not all about you.

It's not personal in the least. Nothing was taken as an insult directed to me. However, I'm not going to sit by and have you insult someone that I highly respect. Get that? It's not all about you all the time.

And yes, it is kind of sad that you feel you need advice to - talk - to women. No shame in that - we've all been there.

Now, back to important topics. I'm here for business, not for shy developing males trying to scrape up the confidence to talk to women...
 
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FierceRacoon

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People who have high self esteem do that stuff naturally. I mean sure you can do it that way and approach 1000 girls and fake it til you make it and suck it up.. or you can go to Therapy for a few months, and actually build real self esteem.
Do you know what you are talking about? Have you tried street sales or anything with a cold approach? Go tomorrow to a mall and tell 20 people that they look gorgeous, ask their name and shake their hand. Can be men or women. Then report how your confidence has helped you, and if you managed to complete it in one day :)

It's like the Law of Attraction. Sounds good in theory, but doesn't work. No, it's not enough to "manifest internal confidence". No business builds itself, and people that you want to attract don't just materialize in your life either, unless you make it happen. And it's hard, because — sic! — it takes a process. A process of learning more about people; whatever you do for that end, it has to involve a lot of human interaction over many years.

If you've accomplished the above exercise, here's more for some extra points: take $1 and give it to a random person at the mall as a gift. Ideally to a well-dressed woman. Do you really think you have enough confidence for something like that? Actors and salespeople spend many years doing brutal but innocently-looking exercises; this stuff is hard. Or go to Starbucks and ask for a free coffee. For no reason... If it sounds easy, it is because you have never tried it. All the therapy in the world will not help you, just as it will not make you a business.
 
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FierceRacoon

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Someone with high Self-Esteem feels like that all the time.
Unfortunately, one more correction. You only feel confident all the time if you never try anything new.
As soon as you venture into a new field, you suddenly become an incompetent idiot... most of the time. Your concept of Self-Esteem is called "Comfort Zone".

Besides, buying a Lamborghini after .5-10-15 years of hard effort feels good. Winning a chess competition feels good, and so does getting attractive women, whatever "getting" means. If you are a Buddhist monk, you can perhaps transcend the attachment to stuff, after excruciating work over, similarly, 5-10-15 years. I frankly don't believe you are that far along the spiritual to journey to teach people to just be confident.

Ultimately, any advice that you have to just be yourself and not try is armchair philosophy. Everything worthwhile is hard, and it's okay to want it. Just because other people want other stuff does not mean they are shallow or stupid: or in a way, so is the desire to get rich. Money does not buy happiness; does poverty? Why try to escape the rat race? We will all die anyway, why not just work 9-5, then mediate? After all, anything unpleasant can open the gateway to enlightenment, so why not make 9-5 your gateway to enlightenment?...
 
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ChrisV

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I have to admit I'm getting a little bored with this thread, so forgive me if I stop responding. I'll respond to the last few comments, but I'm probably not going to be paying much attention to this thread going forward.

I never discounted therapy as a way to help people overcome their issues.
It's pretty much the answer. It's a essentially complete fix to what those guys call 'inner game.'

I wish I could be a natural like you and not have to resort to these things
So then go for it. I've literally spelled out the formula for it in my second post. That was the entire point of making that post.

Do you know what you are talking about? Have you tried street sales or anything with a cold approach? Go tomorrow to a mall and tell 20 people that they look gorgeous, ask their name and shake their hand. Can be men or women. Then report how your confidence has helped you, and if you managed to complete it in one day :)
I strike up conversations with people all day. Pretty girls, old women, cashiers, whatever.. and yes when I was like 18 I wasn't as comfortable with it. I never said people shouldn't push their comfort zones, and I'm not sure where that's implied.

And the Law of Attraction comparison is a total strawman. It's totally different. Women are actually attracted to confidence, in the same way that men are attracted to an hourglass figure. This PUA stuff addresses the symptoms of low self-esteem (body language, voice tone) while ignoring the self-esteem itself. They use this Alpha Male vs Beta Male dichotomy, and if we go with that metaphor the "Alpha Male" just says what's on his mind. The "Beta Male" feels ashamed. Take assertiveness training. Read books on Toxic Shame. The body language and voice tone will improve as a result of that. It's easier, faster and more effective.

That said, I appreciate the multiple perspectives in this thread. To anyone who wants to learn ethical and effective methods of improving their ability to meet women (although he has programs for women too!) I highly suggest the work of David Tian. He's a PhD who studies actual academic psychology and helps people make the inner transformations I've talked about.

Also, I have a friend who teaches this stuff from a female perspective. Her name is Marni Kinrys, and she too is awesome. She holds no bars about this stuff, and won't give you the typical fluffy advice women can often give.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-p9Z-Ekfn4


Good luck.
 

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I agree the shit is bad man.

I must admit I did it when I was younger and we'll it F*cking works!

Then why did I stop doing it?

Even with the success I was getting it seemed so off, and everything was strategic, knowing what I say would lead to, th n lead to X for example.it felt robotic and weird, and I dropped hard as something was wrong with. It in my mind.

it I didn't feel any better with success I had I felt empty. A guy I used to go out with hit me up one night to go out and hit on girls with pua stuff. I ejected hard and I think he got the picture haven't heard from him since.
 

lordpyro777

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The biggest thing about PUA is that it works...in the short term. The problem is that you are perpetually insecure because you never really know if she wants you because of you or because of who you are "acting to be". So you go through sleeping with lots of women but you never really know yourself or the women - so its a never ending cycle, that you have to maintain.

You also are constantly depending on other women for your self esteem. A girl who is a 7 who really loves you for who you are gets ignored because you need a 10 - the challenge of the 10.

You have to force yourself to ultimately be a shallow individual. Its much better to build something for yourself that is real, that gives you real self-esteem regardless if you sleep with a girl or not.
 

Rosebudd

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The biggest thing about PUA is that it works...in the short term. The problem is that you are perpetually insecure because you never really know if she wants you because of you or because of who you are "acting to be". So you go through sleeping with lots of women but you never really know yourself or the women - so its a never ending cycle, that you have to maintain.

You also are constantly depending on other women for your self esteem. A girl who is a 7 who really loves you for who you are gets ignored because you need a 10 - the challenge of the 10.

You have to force yourself to ultimately be a shallow individual. Its much better to build something for yourself that is real, that gives you real self-esteem regardless if you sleep with a girl or not.
Lol, short term uh ? I have been studying and applying concepts i've learned throughout the last 10 years and have been doing just fine. If you call that short term, suit yourself, because life is short I guess.

I can't speak for others but at least the goal of the majority of guys I have worked with, wasn't to sleep with as many women possible, they just wanted to be in a position where if they did meet the RIGHT ONE, they'd be confident enough to have a shot at attracting her.

After you get past the looks phase where you're trying to impress your friends with the hot girls you're getting, you really start trying to just find a girl with a decent personality. A kind hearted, caring and easy going 7 gets my text replies and further dates while an entitled, bitchy 10, gets blocked.

It's not shallow to want better things for yourself. I rather be "shallow" by your definition than have to settle with a mediocre woman and live a miserable life because I had no options or was afraid of dying alone.
 

Successful Steve

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Love it or hate it, there’s a reason why it’s a multi-million dollar industry. It works.

And if you guys knew how the pickup industry even started, you would know that it was in direct correlation to women who talked about how to manipulate men and some guys decided to turn the tables and became legends.

Same as the new manosphere, it’s a direct correlation to the new feminist movement.

Cause and effect.

ChrisV- Marni Kinrys worked with a lot of those pickup artists that people despised at one time.
 

guy93777

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. We are all breaking out of the box and embracing one another in perfect harmony.

i don't think so.

i have been studying social engineering for 10 years. this is the worst time ever for harmony between men and women in the western world.

harmony is perfect balance between yin and yang. this is not the case at all in western societies .

and i won't explain the roots of problems because of that rule from the 48 laws of power " law 38 : think as you like but behave like others ".



i can't go against shared beliefs in this forum or society. i have to respect people's beliefs whether they are true or false because i will be punished like every guy who speaks above the crowd.



but i can point at material for people who want to work in order to know the truth and stop being pawns

25677




quotation :

"The political elite are members of the class of people who are incapable of accurately understanding, by themselves, the complex "unseen environment" wherein the public affairs of the modern state occur; thus, Lippmann proposes that a professional, "specialized class" collect and analyze data, and present their conclusions to the society's decision makers, who, in their turn, use the "art of persuasion" to inform the public about the decisions and circumstances affecting them.[2]

Public Opinion proposes that the increased power of propaganda and the specialized knowledge required for effective political decisions have rendered the traditional notion of democracy impossible "




famous case study :


View: https://youtu.be/b7XbrYkf4Z8




quotation :

"This excerpt from Adam Curtis' documentary "Century of the Self" produced in 2002 for BBC illustrates how Edward Bernays, the founder of the field of public relations, manipulated the masses into considering that the idea of women smoking must be associated with that of freedom. The background mechanism is being explained very clearly, and Edward Bernays himself, in an interview filmed in 1991 admits to what public relations really are at the origins. "




.
 
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Schwarz

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Great post.

My problem with PUA's is that they make needy people to believe that their neediness is right. That if you are not approaching the pretty girl on the street, you're a coward and you're missing out. I believed in all of this for a while, it only ended up making me feel miserable.

Sure, that pretty girl looks attractive. And maybe she would be interesting. I probably want to know more about her because she is a pretty thing. I also want a hamburger, lol.

I do, however, believe that some PUA's are really brilliant. Some of them have great life advice. RSDTyler and RSDJulien for example, have almost completely switched over from PUA to Self Help. Although self help has its own issues, these people do have interesting life philosophies.
 
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ChrisV

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Great post.

My problem with PUA's is that they make needy people to believe that their neediness is right. That if you are not approaching the pretty girl on the street, you're a coward and you're missing out. I believed in all of this for a while, it only ended up making me feel miserable.

Sure, that pretty girl looks attractive. And maybe she would be interesting. I probably want to know more about her because she is a pretty thing. I also want a hamburger, lol.

I do, however, believe that some PUA's are really brilliant. Some of them have great life advice. RSDTyler and RSDJulien for example, have almost completely switched over from PUA to Self Help. Although self help has its own issues, these people do have interesting life philosophies.
Yes, my criticism does not extend to guys like the RSD camp. Those guys are big advocates of Eckhart Tolle and Personal Development.

I think it boils down to the following: are you more focus on improving your advertising, or are you more focused on improving your product. Traditional PUA focuses on the advertising, where I advocate improving the product. Advertising is important too, but without a great product, its manipulation.

And I laughed so hard at your sig.
 

Schwarz

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I think it boils down to the following: are you more focus on improving your advertising, or are you more focused on improving your product. Traditional PUA focuses on the advertising, where I advocate improving the product. Advertising is important too, but without a great product, its manipulation.

And I laughed so hard at your sig.
Hahaha, it's true

Your comparison with marketing and products is totally spot on
 

Mattie

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"This excerpt from Adam Curtis' documentary "Century of the Self" produced in 2002 for BBC illustrates how Edward Bernays, the founder of the field of public relations, manipulated the masses into considering that the idea of women smoking must be associated with that of freedom. The background mechanism is being explained very clearly, and Edward Bernays himself, in an interview filmed in 1991 admits to what public relations really are at the origins. "
Thank you for the resources, I will take a look at it. I'm open to new information all the time. I assure you, I'm very familiar with the different conscious levels of relationships since I have a Human Service Degree and have talked with the Masculine and Feminine since 2007, and have studied a lot, but you can never have enough information and always upgrading is necessary.

I really am not one to manipulate others into thinking anything. Really, what I understand from my experience, isn't you have three/four generations with different views on relationship styles. We've entered a time where technology is playing a huge part in interfering in the natural process of relating with one another in huge ways.

I believe there is a rise in domestic violence and child abuse in the side walk and perhaps Middle Class, but there is a process we each go through. As we know with entrepreneurship, business, and even a job, when your in a relationship, this ties together, because the feminine and masculine usually do well, and more in harmony, unity, and peace if they're headed in the same direction in life, both educated, and have the growth mindset instead of the fixed mindset.

Most of us go through a process of events with the masculine and feminine throughout our life time. This does have to do with the culture, society, parenting, and environment one is raised.

I'm personally not afraid to rock the boat, because I know this is my personality. I know the masculine and feminine don't always like what I have to say when I give them advice. Some of them don't want to hear it. Some of them are resistant, and some are open to it and listen.

Statistics are nice, numbers are nice, but I'm more one who will walk on the front lines, hear the masculine and feminine from both sides, hear their stories, and see the bigger picture, the long-term games, and the consequences of their choices and actions. The family as a whole.

While that has been a major task in studying, doing observational research, and studying everything, this is the only way, you can really get in depth of what is happening.

Depression, Anxiety, PTSD, all play into this as well. With stress being a huge factor in different social classes in different ways.

What works and what doesn't work? Why?
 

Successful Steve

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Yes, my criticism does not extend to guys like the RSD camp. Those guys are big advocates of Eckhart Tolle and Personal Development.

I think it boils down to the following: are you more focus on improving your advertising, or are you more focused on improving your product. Traditional PUA focuses on the advertising, where I advocate improving the product. Advertising is important too, but without a great product, its manipulation.

And I laughed so hard at your sig.
I’m sorry, but how are you gonna one minute write a post about how bad the pickup industry is but then exclude RSD, who are one of the most misogynistic groups around. Different members are banned in various countries, they have lawsuits against them where I live, and some of them were in the original group that started it all.
 
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ChrisV

ChrisV

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Statistics are nice, numbers are nice, but I'm more one who will walk on the front lines, hear the masculine and feminine from both sides, hear their stories, and see the bigger picture, the long-term games, and the consequences of their choices and actions. The family as a whole.
The problem with that is you don't get a representative sample. Our own biases make us selectively choose who to interview. It's fine to interview people to see the human side, but statistics are more accurate.
 

Mattie

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The problem with that is you don't get a representative sample. Our own biases make us selectively choose who to interview. It's fine to interview people to see the human side, but statistics are more accurate.
True, I but I don't usually select them. I'm in forum or group, just answer questions, and people choose me. I suppose I do choose who I answer. Although, I've been on so many forums. I don't always agree or see eye to eye with people, just because I interact with them. I believe survey's are good, you can ask a lot of questions and have them answers and get statistics. Which I know lately, I decided perhaps to keep some records on stuff, but just a lot of work to be entering data every day. I speak to so many people around the world. Ha ha..but I honestly think I should at times.

People love the statistics, but I think you'd have to have a good sample. I just watched a person do this with 69 people, and I didn't really trust the information, because it was such a small sample and statistics based off a small portion in particular niche. When your talking about relationships diversity, this I believe is too small.
 

bizkitgto

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I'm not surprised men are flocking to PUA/Game type stuff they find on the internet, it's because they have no where else to go or turn to. The core problem in my opinion is men don't understand women, especially young men. Guys will often ask girls for help or their opinion, only to watch women go and do the complete opposite of what they say. This frustrates men, especially young guys because they are doing what they think is right, only to watch the girl of their desires routinely going out with *Bad Boys*, getting hurt, over and over - hoping, expecting her to realize he is the guy of her dreams. But it never happens, and this is how Nice Guys^(TM) are born. Nice Guys repress so much anger and emotion over the years that it leads to a life of *incel* or *Forever Alone*. We've seen this stuff manifest in various growing communities online like: MGTOW, Incel, Red Pill, etc. There's a lot of salt in there, mostly from Nice Guys who don't get it, but there's also a lot of hurt guys in there as well (divorce, cheating, etc).

I expect PUA to lose relevance, people aren't going to bars and clubs like they used to in the past. OLD and Tinder are taking over, we're seeing lower rates of marriage as *hook-ups* and FWB's become more common. Will this work in the long run? Probably not. We've all seen the report 30% of the men aged 18-30 aren't getting any sex (in the last year), and that number has grown steadily for the last ten years where the women's number has been unchanged. So what's happening?

I think this goes back to the root cause: men have nowhere to go to learn about women. And with the rise in things like social media, the internet, video games, etc guys will choose to retreat into these virtual worlds and porn, rather than pursue women because of a few bad experiences. Women aren't exactly kind when they eject men, so I can't blame them for retreating like this. The problem today is too many men are doing this, and at the same time you have the media going on a full anti-male tirade labeling all men as rapists, misogynists, over-privileged etc (remember the famous Gillette ad?), this further angers a lot of these guys. So we have this situation in the gender war where men and women are more divided than ever, and men don't really understand women all too well, and women on the other hand are proving to not understand men.
 

Schwarz

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I’m sorry, but how are you gonna one minute write a post about how bad the pickup industry is but then exclude RSD, who are one of the most misogynistic groups around. Different members are banned in various countries, they have lawsuits against them where I live, and some of them were in the original group that started it all.
There are a lot of people that would like to see Jordan Peterson banned from colleges. Does that mean those people are right? No. There are a lot of people who hear about a man approaching a woman in public and saying how not okey that is. Are those people right? No. Some of those people happen to be working for a government.
 

Real Deal Denver

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I'm not surprised men are flocking to PUA/Game type stuff they find on the internet, it's because they have no where else to go or turn to. The core problem in my opinion is men don't understand women, especially young men. Guys will often ask girls for help or their opinion, only to watch women go and do the complete opposite of what they say. This frustrates men, especially young guys because they are doing what they think is right, only to watch the girl of their desires routinely going out with *Bad Boys*, getting hurt, over and over - hoping, expecting her to realize he is the guy of her dreams. But it never happens, and this is how Nice Guys^(TM) are born. Nice Guys repress so much anger and emotion over the years that it leads to a life of *incel* or *Forever Alone*. We've seen this stuff manifest in various growing communities online like: MGTOW, Incel, Red Pill, etc. There's a lot of salt in there, mostly from Nice Guys who don't get it, but there's also a lot of hurt guys in there as well (divorce, cheating, etc).

I expect PUA to lose relevance, people aren't going to bars and clubs like they used to in the past. OLD and Tinder are taking over, we're seeing lower rates of marriage as *hook-ups* and FWB's become more common. Will this work in the long run? Probably not. We've all seen the report 30% of the men aged 18-30 aren't getting any sex (in the last year), and that number has grown steadily for the last ten years where the women's number has been unchanged. So what's happening?

I think this goes back to the root cause: men have nowhere to go to learn about women. And with the rise in things like social media, the internet, video games, etc guys will choose to retreat into these virtual worlds and porn, rather than pursue women because of a few bad experiences. Women aren't exactly kind when they eject men, so I can't blame them for retreating like this. The problem today is too many men are doing this, and at the same time you have the media going on a full anti-male tirade labeling all men as rapists, misogynists, over-privileged etc (remember the famous Gillette ad?), this further angers a lot of these guys. So we have this situation in the gender war where men and women are more divided than ever, and men don't really understand women all too well, and women, on the other hand, are proving to not understand men.
Excellent post. I'm so glad I'm not 20-30 in the world today.

To sum up why people don't/can't understand the opposite sex, I'd say it has so much to do with the information overload that is constantly being fed into young minds today. Hell - have a relationship? So many can't even figure themselves out. What do you identify with this week? I know the feeling - I once felt like a male trapped in a woman's body - then I was born and it went away!

I don't need all the studies and analysis to explain the effect on people today. Just shut OFF the noise - the damn constant noise - so you can think for yourself for a change.

Nobody has a chance to let their brain to fully develop when it is plugged into a cell phone/internet/video game/movie every day. And they sure are inhibited on personal development with all the information that is constantly streaming to them. To make matters worse, so much of the information is garbage.

Do you think this is funny? You might think I don't know what I am talking about? Try eating McDonalds straight every day, and see how you feel after a month. There is a documentary about what happened with this, and it isn't good.


Keep playing those video games - keep listening to garbage music - keep letting yourself be distracted by every little thing in social media - keep feeding your mind junk food. Will the results surprise. Anyone?

The only good thing about all of this is that it's so unbelievably bad that it's almost impossible to not see it for the crap that it is. I recently took a 20-year-old guy out for lunch with my Wife and I. I had to meet him, congratulate him, and offer him a meal as a small reward for being an outstanding man. Only 20 years old, and he performed a feat of magnificent maturity that I rarely see in anyone of any age. The details don't matter here. I am only using that as an example of someone so young that is so aware of improving himself that he has unplugged himself from the barrage of crap/information/noise that so many are consuming on a daily diet. And he has become a fantastic person because of this, and he has instead directed efforts towards improving himself. I told him that by the time he reaches 30, I have no doubt that he will be enormously successful, and maybe a genius to boot.

So many here "think" they are so smart. Go to a few lectures - read a few books - and all of a sudden you understand the human psyche. It isn't complicated, but that's the way they sell it. Look at the source.

When you start eating healthy, there are immediate responses and results from your body. Do the same thing with your mind and see what happens; the same thing.

I have unofficially "adopted" this young man, and let him know I am there for him in any way that I can be. After this story spread - guess what happened? Other people also stepped forward and took a similar stand. Now people where he works actually fight over him because they want him in their departments. What he did is far from impossible - but so rare in today's culture. It's not rare for those among us that have high standards and expectations, and that's why I, and others, recognized the strength and quality of character this young man has.

Be that man (or woman).

I assure you that there are others that will appear out of nowhere to help and support you. Just as many animal species will come to the aid of their own, quality people will appear to come to the aid and support of quality people - especially young ones that need the support in their developing years.

Leave the gamers, the players, the scammers, the braggarts, and the fakes where they belong - in the dust.

And leave those that would take a simple concept like "growing up" if you will, and elevate it to a complicated mess, entrenched in studies and deep psycho-analysis. Leave that behind. It will only waste your time, confuse you, and needlessly complicate matters.

Cut to the core, and it isn't complicated or difficult at all.
 
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