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HOT TOPIC Why I despise Pickup Artistry, and how to have a fulfilling sex life.

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Primeperiwinkle

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Oh man this whole concept has my brain exploding.

On this forum ppl discuss the extreme importance of validating a business idea pre launch.

In this thread you mentioned how the unstable types try to earn validation through others but it’s just .. empty.

So really the question I’m gonna be contemplating is, how does one go about validating one’s self?

How do you validate yourself?!?

Hmmmmmmm..... I stayed up too late.
 

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Kevin88660

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I was going to post this in the “Men’s Room” forum, but decided against it because I want women to be included as well.

While this isn't business related, I’ve been noticing a lot of this “Pickup Artist” philosophy creeping in on the forums as of late and I have to admit I’m a little disappointed in it.

Just to be clear, I have absolutely no issue with casual sex. When I’m single I do the same thing. It’s whatever. Go get a new girl every night. Whatever you want. I really genuinely have no issue with it.

What I do have an issue with is the ways they go about it. For those that don’t know what “Pickup Artists” teach.. it’s essentially stuff like “Be cocky and funny” (a certain brand of humor where you bust a girls balls while acting like you’re totally ‘the shit.’) Advice like: “Don’t act too needy,” “Be mysterious,” “be unpredictable,” “don’t text her back too quickly” … essentially addressing symptoms of low self-esteem while not addressing the self-esteem itself.

But you see the Pickup Artist mentality on reddit and forums. A guy comes on the forum and says "there's this girl i really like.. what should I do?" And he’s relentlessly made fun of. The guys chime in, tell him to stop being a little bitch, and diagnose him with ‘oneitus.’


View attachment 25600




In their view, liking one girl is a disease, and if you go and f— 10 girls, you’ll realize how ‘unspecial’ the first girl was. Make no mistake, this is pure psychopathic behavior. Literally. I have a friend who is a diagnosed sociopath, and he does things like this. The Pickup Artist community is literally trying to mold psychopaths.

Every woman is special. They all have unique personalities and quirks and each one of them is interesting in their own way. You should learn to love each and every one of them, rather than listening to some idiots trying to tell you that they’re all disposable f*ckdolls. Again, there’s nothing wrong with having sex with them, but the mentality promotes treating them as objects rather than real unique people with thoughts, feelings, fears, hopes, dreams and desires. This is the psychopathic part.

And don’t get it twisted. These Pickup Artists don’t really care about the sex. If they just wanted sex, there are much easier and less time-consuming ways to go about it. Just get a prostitute. Or get a girlfriend. But they don’t just want the sex. They want the ego validation. They want to earn the sex. Actually earning the sex shows they’re good enough to ‘get her.’ If he can get he attention of the hottest girl in the room, he’s finally ‘good enough.’ He’s finally one of the cool guys. But this feeling of validation is short lived, and it won’t be long until he’s out looking for another girl to validate him.

And every night they’re out trying to go out to get their more validation. If they fail with one girl they will spiral and get depressed until they get another girl who does validate them. They want new ones all the time, because there’s no validation in the ones you’ve already had. Where’s the challenge there?

It’s no different than a crack-cocaine addiction. A crack addict acts the same way. They go out every night trying to score a hit, and if they can’t get it, they spiral into depression.

And to be clear, it’s not just men that are the issue. There are just as many female Narcissist as well. So yes, there are Female Pickup Artists. Women just go about it differently. They get all dolled up to go out to the club, look as sexually enticing as possible and take a guy home with them. Similarly, these women aren’t so much after the sex as they are looking for the same thing the men are: Ego Validation. Feeling desirable. Getting all dolled up, get tons of attention at the bar, and take a guy home with them is all validation that they’re good enough. But similar to the men, they never exposed the ‘real her’ to that person. The makeup, the low-cut dress, the sexy heels… it’s just as much of a facade as the man who feigns a ‘cocky/funny’ demeanor and fake confident body language in order to take the girl home with him.

On the male end, all of this ‘Pickup Artistry” stuff is learning to pretend to be a confident guy. Pretending to be a leader. Taking confident body language, and confident voice tones, all the while refusing to expose how you really feel. Why? Deep down, they don’t like themselves. And again, it’s the same with women. They won't expose themselves becasue they don't like who they are. I knew this girl in High School who was so deeply insecure she wouldn’t leave the house without perfectly doing her makeup. She wouldn’t smoke a bowl with friends without doing her makeup first. She wanted no-one to see what she really looked like. And she wasn’t ugly by any stretch of the imagination. She just thought she was. And I think it’s a perfect mirror image of the Pickup Artist facade.

Listen, I’ve been there. I’ve been at the point where I always needed to show up in the nicest car, always had to look perfect, always had to be dressed perfect, always had to have the flyest chick on my arm… and of course, I could never have the same one for too long.. I wanted people to know I had a constant, fresh supply of pretty girls. Why? Pure validation. I mean if I pulled up in a normal car, with an average looking girl I couldn’t rub it in people’s faces how awesome I was. It was no different from the girl who couldn’t go to the deli without spending 20 minutes on her makeup. And it’s a horrid way to live. Like I said, it’s no different from a drug addiction. That’s why Pride is listed as one of the 7 deadly sins along with greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth. Aside from wrath and sloth, ALL 7 of those are addictive behaviors. Pride is just as much of an addiction as the others.

So what am i saying here? Am I saying that casual sex is wrong? Am I saying to not do it? Am I saying to just settle for an average life eating Chinese food out of the carton with a fat wife who doesn’t shave her armpits. No, not at all. I like pretty girls and nice things as much a the next guy. Men will always like pretty girls and nice things. It's literally built into our DNA. Again, what I’m warning against is the way these guys go about it: through manipulation and denial of who they are.

The pickup ‘industry’ preys on needy guys, and tries to teach them to act in a way that doesn’t seem needy. But it’s not genuine. They’re still left with the same insecure feelings and emptiness that you were before. They’ve just learned to manipulate women better, and for a few hours they get some very brief relief from that emptiness.

So what’s the solution? Simple. Rather than trying to pretend to be confident and non-needy, actually learn to be confident and non-needy. Actually develop yourself at the core so you actually are the cool person these PUA guys are trying to get you to pretend to be.

Rather than acting like you’re ‘not needy’ take care of the psychological roots of neediness. In psychology, attachment styles are broken into 4 categories.

anxious-preoccupied (needy)​
dismissive-avoidant​
fearful-avoidant​
secure (confident)​

If you want fulfilling relationships where you can present who you really are and still be accepted for it, I suggest on working on developing a secure attachment style.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP-nPJbTgTs


Getting to the point of of developing a secure attachment style often involves grappling with potentially deep psychological issues, but it’s really the only viable option. Besides the fact that manipulation is just plain wrong and psychopathic, it’s dangerous. Putting on a facade is no basis to meet a woman that might potentially be your wife one day. It’s like building a house on quicksand. Not only will the home likely crumble, but you will be in that home when it does finally collapse, putting yourself and everyone involved in harms way. And if you end up having children, they will be in harms way too. This may sound like hyperbole, but ask anyone who’s gone through a divorce how absolutely devastating it is to everyone involved.

When you’re secure attachment with genuine confidence, you just rock up to a chick, make it obvious you’re trying to take her home with you, and 9 times out of 10, she will. And it will be based on who you are. None of this cocky/funny body language bullshit.. none of this silly ‘hard to get’ nonsense. She’s there trying to meet someone to go home with. It’s the entire reason that bars and clubs exist.

If you like a girl for more than something casual. you tell her ‘hey I’m really intrigued by you.. maybe you’d like to go out later in the week and get to know each other?’ No games. No bullshit. You just put it out there and let her take the offer. And again, it will be based on who you are. It's a home built on a solid foundation.

The key is not to act like somebody else to, but to actually become your best self. And by being your best self you will be naturally attractive to women or men without having to act like someone else, and you’ll be significantly more attractive than those sleazy Pickup Gurus.
Some of your points are spot on. Some I disagree. But this is a meaningful conversation.

Ya the PUA thing is about female validation. It is to earn attraction and sex to feel being validated. I think you are spot on about that. I disagree that Pua is about just getting casual sex. I think there was an interview with a dating coach saying those guys who spent about 2k on a boot camp were mainly about age 35 dudes who already had their financial things in place. They felt that they missed out things in their life. They want to have a bit of fun and mostly wanted to look for a girlfriend. As you said if you want sex just pay.

PUA is dying now because chicks (sub 26) do not go to bars any more. Its is all about knowing people thru “social circle” and “social media approval”. It is another big topic to be talked another day.

A lot of PUA manipulation are not necessary and could backfire. Ya but seriously you kid yourself when you believe in the opposite- there should be absolutely no manipulation and all about direct intention? What about job interview and business marketing? There has never been anything without any slight degree of manipulation. As long as it is done without lying about things material in nature and it is done with grace, it is the norm now. High quality girls have guys hitting on then all day and if you cannot impress them you would not be given the time to continue the conversation.

What I think is really bad about the pua industry is their empty promises. (Even in the good days when young chicks still go to bars). A lot of fckibg bullshit. Extremely rarely has someone been living fantastic sex life using the stuff. You see online guys brag about all these crazy numbers of chicks they bang that people NEVER see in real life.

The reason for the disappointment is very simple. Despite whatever sexual empowerment that modern society has brought about less than ten percent of the girls are willing to engage in casual sex with strangers. So in the casual sex market you have a flood of hungry young men trying all tricks to impress a small group of low quality girls who have all the ability to choose. So end up they routinely spend a lot of time, getting a lot of rejections and finally landed on an emotionally needy below average looking boy crazy girl to boost their lay numbers and brag to friends.

It is not really a good investment of time to look for sex using what they teach. But the community still provides a lot of education values for guys on how to sell themselves to girls and understand girls better.
 

D.Navi

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The fear of rejection is what keeps people from asking women out, In my opinion everyone should look at the situation in two ways:

Best case scenario - You introduce yourself, she likes you and get a date.
Worst case scenario - She rejects you and you lost 2 minutes of your life and a small punch to the ego.

Literally there are 3 billion women aside from her.
I'd rather live with rejection than living with "What If".
Reminds me of a quote from a TV show I like:

25610
 

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Oh man this whole concept has my brain exploding.

On this forum ppl discuss the extreme importance of validating a business idea pre launch.

In this thread you mentioned how the unstable types try to earn validation through others but it’s just .. empty.

So really the question I’m gonna be contemplating is, how does one go about validating one’s self?

How do you validate yourself?!?

Hmmmmmmm..... I stayed up too late.
Grab a drink of green tea. After that, just ponder about what your values are and how they look like in reality. Once that's done, live by them.

For example, one of my values is compassion. When I think of how compassion might look like in reality, I think of different groups of people being helped to alleviate their suffering, such as giving clothes and food to the homeless or listening to senior citizens at a nursing home to give them some company. Then I try very hard to live these acts out since they reflect my understanding of the value of compassion. Each and every time you live by your values, your confidence grows in a direction based on genuineness and authenticity.

This, my friend, is one of many ways to gain validation. However, it is one of the best type of validations because it is strictly from you. Seek validation from others, and your emotions, your worth are at their mercy. Seek validation from yourself and you answer to no one else.

MJ talks about commandment of control. It is scary if your business can die so easily from outside circumstances. However, if your business is built on a system that you mostly control, it will be difficult to kill it. Likewise, confidence based on validation from doing things you believe in will make you mentally STRONG and self-assured, but most importantly, happier. But if you seek validation from others, then prepare yourself for your own burial. You are no longer living your life, but instead living theirs.
 

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I don't think that trying to manipulate people for personal gain is a hallmark of a psychopath. There are LOTS of people who spend a large portion of their time and energy trying to manipulate others -- politicians, people who work for advertising companies, employers, negotiators, etc.

If trying to manipulate people made you a psychopath, a large portion of the population would likely fit into that category.

Let me also add that I don't know too many people who don't try to manipulate others in some way, shape or form. I would argue that it's human nature and part of our natural instinct. @Johnny boy was just being honest about his doing it...
when you are a nice guy, or lets say got out of a long relationship and forgot how to just go for it, you manipulate, but from very far away, so faint that you think no one will even notice, but everyone knows that you want it, and its taking you a long time to ask for it, and they go 'i wonder when, cause i do know.'

so yeah, you're right.

Didnt read the rest of this thread, wouldnt even look if I didnt see MJ and you post here. Whats going on with this forum and these pua topics? Havent been here in awhile.
 

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Didnt read the rest of this thread, wouldnt even look if I didnt see MJ and you post here. Whats going on with this forum and these pua topics? Havent been here in awhile.
Completely agreed with that. I can't figure out why I decided to get involved in this thread...bad decision on my part...
 

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Completely agreed with that. I can't figure out why I decided to get involved in this thread...bad decision on my part...
Well, I supposed it's because we are men...?

when you are a nice guy, or lets say got out of a long relationship and forgot how to just go for it, you manipulate, but from very far away, so faint that you think no one will even notice, but everyone knows that you want it, and its taking you a long time to ask for it, and they go 'i wonder when, cause i do know.'

so yeah, you're right.

Didnt read the rest of this thread, wouldnt even look if I didnt see MJ and you post here. Whats going on with this forum and these pua topics? Havent been here in awhile.
It's not just the forum that's into picking up girls now. This time of the year seems like the season for it, where I am.

I should declare my entirety of my social media feeds a quarantine hazard zone.

I'm seeing my old school friends and present age peers getting into relationships left, right and center, and judging from the photos of candlelight dinners, declarations of '100 day anniversaries' and so on, they aren't going into it for the right reasons.

Even now I am having relatives and family members asking me about getting a girl, 'networking' and even asking me to go on courses that teach you how to 'ensnare' the girl....

I consider it a blessing to be stuck in deserts of desertion for Fastlane (even now, as I figure out how to write another white paper FROM SCRATCH for an Upwork client). Keeps us concentrated on the right things, besides molly-coddling girls who haven't even gotten their first battlescars in life.

I'm not against getting a girl, but not when you still have issues about honesty, honour, respect and compassion.
 

Mattie

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there is a big market for dating advice and seduction

famous entrepreneur Eben Pagan won thanks to the seduction market

View attachment 25607

View attachment 25608


so you guys are saying that this is " bad ". everyone is unique .


but the market says "this is a good thing". millions of guys are buying products

so who is right ? you or the market ?

we are on the business forum but you are saying that the markets are wrong.

there is a problem


.
I think you really have to follow your own navigation system, intuition, and be objective about what you hear, read, and take in. I have studied stuff since 1989 in webinars, workshops, books. blogs, vlogs, and a million products out there with a diversity of advice. Depends on what size you want to try on, or niche, category, and of course the advice you're given is trial and error. Based on the author's experience, research, their personal experience, their focus.

There's something you learn from many informational products, there is no 100% secret sauce to relationships.
 

Mattie

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It's not just the forum that's into picking up girls now. This time of the year seems like the season for it, where I am.
Must be mating season....Summer time is when you see all the women in bikini's and men chasing them. Watched it for years in my hometown. Summer romance. Summer love. At the end of the summer a broken heart, when Romeo sails off on a yacht into the Horizon of Lake Michigan.
 

Mattie

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There's little charity in business and in dating. Businesses work or fail because of the market. Somebody can tell you all day that you have a good business idea but it only counts when they hand over their money. And girls can tell you you're a sweetie pie all day long, but the real truth comes out when it's time to see who goes home with who. That's why I like dating. There's no charity. It's brutal and competitive.
I would tell my 19 year old self today, to focus on the Entrepreneurship and building and empire and forget the romance, the love, and wait until everything was established and the men were more mature and myself.
 

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Mattie

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I think it’s important to note that the unstable types are attracted and attractive to other unstable types.
What I have to say about this from life experience is most masculine and feminine have some emotional and mental issues to work out within themselves. Most material out there doesn't tap into the masculine being independent, self-reliant, and standing on their own two feet. Usually most feminine and masculine have to go through the natural passages of rites growing up, maturing, evolving, and reaching their full potential. While there might be a certain amount of the population who might have had healthy home environments, there are very few at times that teach their children to be healthy person within themselves and with the opposite sex.

I think when you say Unstable, this is kind of spectrum of different shades of emotional and mental issues. Then there are some who have severe mental impairments.
 

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Men will spend a small fortune trying to have sex with women. I'm not going to fault anyone for captilazing on that ambition. I have nothing but respect for anyone who is able to make money selling pick up advice. That's the whole point of information marketing. To make money.

And I see nothing wrong with young men learning how to pick up women. That's what they should do. Educate themselves and improve their methodology. No different than what we endeavor to do in business.

In my opinion, the art of picking up women, applies the same principles of marketing you would use in connection with the selling of any other product or service. The only difference here being the product in question is you.

More power to em.
 
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Oh man this whole concept has my brain exploding.

On this forum ppl discuss the extreme importance of validating a business idea pre launch.

In this thread you mentioned how the unstable types try to earn validation through others but it’s just .. empty.

So really the question I’m gonna be contemplating is, how does one go about validating one’s self?

How do you validate yourself?!?

Hmmmmmmm..... I stayed up too late.
This is a really complex question, but the short answer is to see my second post in this thread.


Didnt read the rest of this thread, wouldnt even look if I didnt see MJ and you post here. Whats going on with this forum and these pua topics? Havent been here in awhile.
Well, to answer your question, the story has been that I haven't been on here for a while and I come back and every thread I read has some reference to PUA crap, which I've never seen before. That's all that's going on.
 
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Mattie

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Biggest key right there.
 

Primeperiwinkle

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Still thinking about this... lol. The metaphysical ramifications are deeeep! I don’t care that I’m all by myself over here with my chin in my hand!
 
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And if anyone thinks that I’m not using the term ‘psychopathic’ figurately, I’m absolutely not. Perhaps a little hyperbole to emphasise my point, but at the extreme end, it literally is psychopathic behavior.

In real life, psychopaths aren’t like the movies.

"Psychopathy (otherwise known as sociopathy) is a personality syndrome or condition that is used to describe people who are extremely selfish, callous, socially manipulative, and narcissistic. They have little regard for social norms or rules or ethical codes, and instead are rather hedonistically motivated; more or less doing whatever it is that feels good to them. Their interpersonal relationships are accordingly quite shallow and lacking in any real intimacy as a rule, not that the average sociopath cares all that much that this is the case.

[…]

Outwardly, however, they may be perceived as socially skillful and charming, these being qualities based on a capacity to manipulate others, rather than a desire to join with them. Accordingly, sociopaths can make for effective salesmen, politicians and con-artists if they are bright enough to pull off the manipulations required. When they come to the attention of psychologists or psychiatrists, they will generally be diagnosed with Antisocial or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

- Mark Dombeck, Ph.D."


Please explain how it is that psychopaths can manipulate people if they have no empathy - Personality Disorders



In real life, they live among is. In fact, these are the top professions most likely to attract Psychopaths:

1. CEO
2. Lawyer
3. Media (Television/Radio)
4. Salesperson
5. Surgeon
6. Journalist
7. Police officer
8. Clergy person
9. Chef
10. Civil servant



Professions with the lowest rates of psychopathy:


1. Care aide
2. Nurse
3. Therapist
4. Craftsperson
5. Beautician/Stylist
6. Charity worker
7. Teacher
8. Creative artist
9. Doctor
10. Accountant



More info:

 
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ChrisV

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From the same link, and I think it very much underlines @Andy Black 's comparison of closing prospects and converting clicks:

"It doesn’t typically trouble them that in the process of conning someone into sleeping with them, or making a sale that they might be very consciously lying to that other person. If it does trouble them, they manage to compartmentalize their discomfort so that it doesn’t interfere with their instrumental and manipulative behavior."

 

Mattie

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From the same link, and I think it very much underlines @Andy Black 's comparison of closing prospects and converting clicks:

"It doesn’t typically trouble them that in the process of conning someone into sleeping with them, or making a sale that they might be very consciously lying to that other person. If it does trouble them, they manage to compartmentalize their discomfort so that it doesn’t interfere with their instrumental and manipulative behavior."

I put this in the forum a few years back somewhere, but I thought it was interesting.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vF5PtdiiCo
 

Mattie

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Come on, girls like to be F*cked and like to F*ck others. I like the swingers community, what is your opinion on them? They share everything from women, men, feelings, stories, etc.
Seriously...I believe it's more so in 2019...different breed of women and men. While by human nature we can have the urge to merge, I believe it's more extreme these days than it was with Generation X. Why the Millennial's have been exposing things I never even thought about for the last nine years. :rofl:

I wasn't taught to be that way in my experience. And really thankful it wasn't this bad when I was in my twenties. We were told we were the worst class in 1989 when I graduated. And I look today thinking we were nothing compared what I've seen online and talking to the masculine and feminine.

There's human nature and exploring and be adventurous, but really all I see is the masculine and feminine in this generation crashing and smashing, and than wonder why they're in so much emotional, mental, pain in the aftermath.


I think they take it to a new level. And I've seen so many women and women from this generation crying and quite screwed up from the games this generation play.

Not that we didn't have similar situations, but I don't remember it this bad.
 

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ChrisV

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I like the swingers community, what is your opinion on them?
No issue whatsoever. If that's what people are into, I think that's great. Again, I'm not here to moralize about sex.. I just kinda made this as a Public Service Announcement because I've been seeing a lot or PUA stuff on here, and this is a business forum. And furthermore, it's a business forum predicated on honesty and the genuine offering of value, not shallow tricks to get your prospects to click based on trickery and psychology, and I think 'pickup' is the dating equivalent of that.
 

Mattie

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No issue whatsoever. If that's what people are into, I think that's great. Again, I'm not here to moralize about sex.. I just kinda made this as a Public Service Announcement because I've been seeing a lot or PUA stuff on here, and this is a business forum. And furthermore, it's a business forum predicated on honesty and the genuine offering of value, not shallow tricks to get your prospects to click based on trickery and psychology, and I think 'pickup' is the dating equivalent of that.
You better make the 2019 version: :rofl:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxBOSdl-b54&t=43s
 
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ChrisV

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Seriously...I believe it's more so in 2019...different breed of women and men. While by human nature we can have the urge to merge, I believe it's more extreme these days than it was with Generation X. Why the Millennial's have been exposing things I never even thought about for the last nine years. :rofl:
Actually, believe it or not, this generation (in the anglosphere) has significantly less sex than previous generations.


They have sex less, they drink less, they do drugs less.

25618

25617

25616
It's really weird and we're actually working on a few papers diving into this effect. A few studies found it's due to Netflix etc, but it seems to go back further than that.

 

Mattie

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Actually, funnily enough, this generation (in the anglosphere) has significantly less sex than previous generations.


They have sex less, they drink less, they do drugs less.

View attachment 25618

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It's really weird and we're actually working on a few papers diving into this effect.
I see those statistics I keep seeing, but fortunately, when you're coaching them, they're telling a different story. And usually I'm teaching the masculine how to discipline themselves and not be addicted to sex and pornography.
 

Real Deal Denver

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Wake up call. It's a given you won't like it - but that doesn't matter.

If you want to justify yourself, go ahead and try. But the old saying that you can't fool all the people all the time comes into play. And speaking of play, let's call you what you are; a player. Maybe that's a dated term for you and you are not aware of it.

The truth of the matter is that dating is a PROCESS of finding your life long PARTNER and perhaps even soul-mate if you are lucky enough. Once that is accomplished, you can move on to building a solid, loving, and nurturing relationship - and getting on with life.

When you get to that point, you will know what full maturity is. Until then, you will be playing the game, for your own selfish reasons, which only delays moving on to the next phase of life.

Speaking of maturity - here is the hierarchy of it, just so you know; caring for yourself without the need for support systems (parents, friends approval, etc.), then caring for someone else more than you care for yourself (a wife or husband), then caring AND providing for your wife and children. When you are mature and strong enough to do all of that, you have arrived at one of the supreme purposes of your life. Until then, you are playing a game, wasting time, and worst of all - as you describe it - using people. When you have a daughter of your own that is hit on by the players, you will understand this.

The whole Pickup Artist community seems like a sham to me. A bunch of grown (mostly) men following a script of pre-ordained lines and actions (talk about SCRIPTED), wearing uniforms basically and wasting their time on what might as well be considered a public performance. I don't care if you want to have an adventurous and active sex life so long as no one gets hurt. Go for it; I really don't care. The PUA world just rubs off as inauthentic, pathetic and wildly superfluous.
That's true IF they stay at the phase and are unable to move on. That's what separates the real men from the players. One of the purposes of the dating phase is to be able to identify the players and act accordingly. Sure, there are both women and men players only living for the moment. The serious ones, looking for something substantial and real, will go through the dating phase until they find what they are looking for. Sadly, many stay in the game, playing, playing, playing...

In this thread you mentioned how the unstable types try to earn validation through others but it’s just .. empty.
Been there - done that. Dating should not be a life long ambition. There is much more to the game, once the game part is over. The players will argue with what you have said - which is why they are players...

The reason for the disappointment is very simple. Despite whatever sexual empowerment that modern society has brought about less than ten percent of the girls are willing to engage in casual sex with strangers. So in the casual sex market you have a flood of hungry young men trying all tricks to impress a small group of low quality girls who have all the ability to choose. So end up they routinely spend a lot of time, getting a lot of rejections and finally landed on an emotionally needy below average looking boy crazy girl to boost their lay numbers and brag to friends.
Some never grow out of this phase. I know men past 50 that should have things figured out by now - but don't.

When I think of how compassion might look like in reality, I think of different groups of people being helped to alleviate their suffering, such as giving clothes and food to the homeless or listening to senior citizens at a nursing home to give them some company. Then I try very hard to live these acts out since they reflect my understanding of the value of compassion. Each and every time you live by your values, your confidence grows in a direction based on genuineness and authenticity.

This, my friend, is one of many ways to gain validation. However, it is one of the best type of validations because it is strictly from you. Seek validation from others, and your emotions, your worth are at their mercy. Seek validation from yourself and you answer to no one else.
Are you trying to say that there are things important in life that can make you a better person, besides living the player life? Say it isn't so! Who would have ever guessed that? GREAT insight - thank you! Loved. Every. Word.

I'm not against getting a girl, but not when you still have issues about honesty, honour, respect and compassion.
Thank you for listing the components of maturity. Fully mature men don't have problems relating and interacting with fully mature women - so there goes the whole game playing thing out the window. If you don't have these qualities, then you play the game as best you can. Whatever it takes...

I would tell my 19 year old self today, to focus on the Entrepreneurship and building and empire and forget the romance, the love, and wait until everything was established and the men were more mature and myself.
There's that big M word again. Maturity. It's important. In fact, it's critical.
 

Seamster

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I had my own system of picking up women before all that pickup artist crap came to be popular back in 2006 or so. I had half a book written and guys who wanted to learn from me. (Nothing to teach....just go talk to a bunch of girls and don't be weird!)

After just skimming the OP, I do believe that his conclusion is correct: most "PU artists" wanted the ego-boost from other PU artists. I was out there banging hot chicks. They were out there rating ugly girls 10s and doing weird magic tricks, etc.
 

Mattie

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I was going to post this in the “Men’s Room” forum, but decided against it because I want women to be included as well.
Love this kid, he knows wisdom comes from both the masculine and feminine. Keep it in balance. Equal value of insight, wisdom, knowledge, and shared experiences. 2019 is no longer about segregation. We are all breaking out of the box and embracing one another in perfect harmony. :) Thanks for sharing.
 
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EPerceptions

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Thank you Chris for diving into a subject I try to avoid here, and which was one of the impetuses for the private forums. Some of the objectification that occurs here from some of the young boys is utterly disturbing...
FWIW (and this may be better in a separate thread) I feel like the segregation just contributes to the problem. Gender is not a business skill. When you separate the boys from the girls, you encourage the boy talk/girl talk that is not conducive to the business world. No one gets checked for their language/attitude, thus they may never learn the proper way to talk/respond and behave in public.

It also hides what could be some fantastic insight that's actually useful in the business sense, i.e. how a woman/man thinks is valuable information, particularly marketing and product development.
 

Rosebudd

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As a Dating author myself, I have to say that while I have many gripes with the "Pickup Artist Community" and perhaps even with some of the points you touched.

Now your remedy to the needy guy who has never had a girlfriend in his life or can't even get a girl to make out with on a night out is: Instead of pretending to be cocky/funny/confident, JUST BE CONFIDENT.
:O

That's rather silly. We would all love to have confidence oozing out of our ears, but it's not exactly teachable. It takes a long time to become confident in yourself, you have to face your fears, you have to become unaffected by it.

The majority of guys I worked with/spoke to when I launched my book were genuinely NICE GUYS, genuine people who were just frustrated with their non-existent or toxic love lives. They simply didn't know how to translate their awesomeness in a language a woman would find appealing or interesting.

So when one girl finally displayed some interest in them, they'd grasp onto her and would end up becoming clingy and displaying very needy and jealous behavior. This is what we would call "one-itis". There's nothing wrong with loving just one woman, 95% of them actually wanted meaningful relationships, the problem is that for those guys, they had no choices, no options, so they thought that if that girl left, they'd be back in the pit of loneliness with no means of escape. Their neediness and jealousy would eventually either push the girl away and make her lose the initial attraction she had, or she would become manipulative and abusive.

You can't just point your fingers and laugh at those trying to help. Yes, some of the tactics or philosophies are rather immoral, but in general, most seducers/PUAs I've known were genuinely trying to help others better themselves.

Is the ego involved in most cases? Of course! Once you know you can just finally talk to the cute girl at the bar, you get a rush from hooking up with someone who society deems "out of your league".

I'm just a below average Joe and getting with a girl like that really strokes your ego. But had I not had those past experiences, I would end up just settling for someone mediocre but who was nice, even if it wasn't someone I was crazy for.

I do recommend at least talking to / flirting with other women. As I'm writing this, I am absolutely head over heels with a certain girl i met a couple weeks ago, but I have been going on dates simply because I am not sure the girl i'm crazy for is totally interested in me. We have hung out and shared some intimacy, but she isn't THERE yet. I got there emotionally way before her because she checks every item on my list, so it would be very easy to just get emotionally attached right away.
By going out with other girls, it allows me to not become so attached to THIS ONE MAGIC PERSON. Now, once I see that she actually wants to pursue something serious and is interested in me, i'll drop all other girls and dating apps without an issue as i've done in the past, but until then, it would be very counterproductive to just make her my world.

I get what you're trying to say, but until you have been in those shoes like I have, you would never understand why one would try to learn that kind of skill. The reason why I started my own business (nothing to do with dating btw) was because by learning pickup/seduction, I learned how to break out of my introverted shell and go out to networking events and make new friends and connections, something I always struggled with.
 
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Devampre

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I despise a fair amount of it although there are some things positive about it too. I used to read more into it until I realized that I knew enough to get the results that I wanted from dating. There's way too much fluff and perceived value molestation in that market for me to appreciate it as much anymore.

Also I recommend taking some people's advice lightly. Not all PUA's live the life they teach so well. I believe doing a little due diligence on whoever is giving the advice.
 
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