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NOTABLE! What's the difference between Slackers and Go Getters? The answer may have to do w/ brain chemistry.

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Edwin Fernandez

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I didn't read a single post in this thread but wanted to chime in...

I noticed when I change my food intake to eating more whole non-processed foods, less sugar, and a little more caffeine( black, no sugar ), and exercise everyday, I become a go getter.
 

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I didn't read a single post in this thread but wanted to chime in...

I noticed when I change my food intake to eating more whole non-processed foods, less sugar, and a little more caffeine( black, no sugar ), and exercise everyday, I become a go getter.
That’s funny because we were literally just talking about that:

if you go back in the thread I listed a number of wats to boost dopamine without using prescription substances,
Can you point me to them or relist please?
Exercise - Not only does it boost DA, but in addition exercise increases the number of receptors in the brain which actually has very very very pronounced effects.. it essentially raises DA neurotransmission exponentially [1] [2] [3]
setting small goals (breaking your big goals into chunks)
eat protein (foods high in phenylalanine/tyrosine)
reduce saturated fat [1] (but saturated fat is NOT as evil as the media make it out to be so wouldn’t go crazy)

One study found that rats that consumed 50% of their calories from saturated fat had reduced dopamine signaling in the reward areas of their brain, compared to animals receiving the same amount of calories from unsaturated fat
Probiotics [1] [2]
Velvet Beans [1] Parkinsons is caused by dopamine dysfunction
8 hours sleep
Listen to music [1] [2] [3]
Meditation [1] (This study found a SIXTY-FIVE PERCENT increase in dopamine release after meditation!
Plenty of sunlight! [1] [2]
Reduce sugar (sugar causes a dopamine spike, but down regulates receptors.. causing really bad long-term effects)
Supplements: L-Tyrosine, L-Phenylalinine, L-theanine, Phosphatidylserine, Curcumin, Ginkgo Biloba, Mucuna Pruriens, More: 54 Supplements & Drugs/Agonists to Increase Dopamine - Selfhacked (Selfhacked is a great resource for stuff like this

Sorry I didn’t cite everything but it’s easily verifiable. Like if you type in “Sleep and dopamine” or “small goals dopamine" into Google the studies should pop right up.
 

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I didn't read a single post in this thread but wanted to chime in...

I noticed when I change my food intake to eating more whole non-processed foods, less sugar, and a little more caffeine( black, no sugar ), and exercise everyday, I become a go getter.
Get rid of breads and pastas too if you eat them.

Then add in a bowl, one bigger than your head, of leafy greens like spinach for the iron. Do this the night before, for dinner. No later than 10PM. You'll wake up the next morning like coffee is a primitive tool. If you've ever wondered why people get up at 5 in the morning, you'll find it's not all about willpower and alarm clocks.
 

Edwin Fernandez

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Oh and another big thing was stopping drinking booze and smoking the hoo-ha, I was waking up way too groggy and it just slows me down all around, mentally, physically.

Meditate, too to kill the stress and anxiety. All these have probably already been mentioned but I didn't read anything.
 
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Evaluation of the effort-related motivational effects of the novel dopamine uptake inhibitor PRX-14040

Abstract
Psychiatric disorders are often marked by effort-related motivational symptoms such as anergia, fatigue, psychomotor retardation, and alterations in effort-based decision making. Animal studies of effort-related choice behavior are being used to model these symptoms. With these procedures, animals are offered a choice between high effort instrumental actions leading to highly valued reinforcers vs. low effort/low reward options. In the present experiments the motivational effects of a novel dopamine (DA) uptake inhibitor, PRX-14040 (PRX), were assessed using tests of effort-based choice in rats. For the two experiments, rats were tested using the concurrent fixed ratio 5 (FR5)/chow feeding choice task. In the first 2 experiments, the vesicular monoamine transport (VMAT-2) inhibitor tetrabenazine (TBZ), which blocks dopamine storage and depletes dopamine, was used to produce a shift in effort-related choice, decreasing lever pressing and increasing chow intake. Co-administration of PRX reversed the effects of TBZ, increasing lever pressing and decreasing chow intake in TBZ-treated rats. In experiment 2, PRX was compared with the catecholamine uptake inhibitor and antidepressant bupropion (Wellbutrin), the stimulant drug methylphenidate, and the wakefulness agent modafinil. All four drugs reversed the effects of TBZ, and PRX compared favorably with these compounds. In the final experiment, PRX was assessed for its ability to increase work output in rats responding on a progressive ratio (PROG)/chow feeding choice task in rats that were otherwise untreated. PRX biased animals towards greater exertion of effort, increasing PROG lever pressing output while decreasing chow intake. In summary, PRX was able to reverse the effects of TBZ, and to increase selection of high effort activities. Taken together, these results suggest that PRX could be useful as a treatment for effort-related motivational dysfunction in humans.


English translation: when given drugs to decrease dopaminergic transmission, rats became lazy and unmotivated. When given drugs to reverse the original drug they become much more motivated to expend energy for a reward.


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Okay guys, I organizing all this into something coherent when I have time, and I know we’re hitting on some complex stuff, but I wanted to talk about another very important topic which is genetics.

I’m gonna make this very clear right now because I know what’s gonna happen already. “GENES MEAN NOTHING... ACHIEVEMENT IS A DECISION.. YOU CAN’T USE THAT AS AN EXCUSE”

No, you don’t want to use it as an excuse, but you do have to realize the realities of genetics in order for you to beat them. Generics are real. They affect your personality. They affect your achievement. The reason you aren’t a sloth or a frog is because of a double helix. A sloth can’t think himself not being a tiger. But there are things you can do to beat your genetics to become an achiever, even if you’re not born one.

A lot of what we’ve been talking about comes down to an enzyme called COMT which is controlled by a gene of the same name.

Worrier or Warrior? Explaining The COMT V158M Gene (rs4680) - Selfhacked

678648.fig.001.jpg

This is from Dr Ben Lynch’s book Dirty Genes. He does a good job of talking about the two variants of this gene.

COMT is the main enzyme responsible for clearing dopamine from the prefrontal cortex (the part of the brain responsible for higher level thinking.)

Essentially people with the slow COMT gene are go-getters (worriers) and those with the fast COMT gene are slackers (warriors.) There’s also a COMT variant that’s in the middle which is considered ideal. Essentially people exist on a spectrum of “Too wired/stressed,” “too laid back/lazy” or “just right.” But the people who are too wired can often be high achievers.

weinbergercomtseesaw_35652_1.jpg

15-Figure1-1.png

(Source)

From Dr Lynch’s book (I cut a lot out, so be sure to get the book!):

When Margo and I met, her exuberant personality seemed to fill the room. She smiled at me enthusiastically, but she looked tired and drawn, though she was only in her midthirties.

She had a demanding job as a high school administrator, which she loved, but which left her feeling burned out and exhausted at the end of every week.

Margo's personality and health assessment fit the profile of slow COMT SNPs so perfectly that I wasn't surprised when her test results came back. I explained to her that her particular inheritance of a dirty gene was loaded with both pros and cons:

Strengths
  • Natural enthusiasm and exuberance
  • Altruism and generosity
  • Energy and productivity
  • The ability to focus for long periods of time
Weaknesses
  • Trouble winding down
  • Sleep challenges
  • Workaholism
  • Difficulties metabolizing estrogen (which can lead to menstrual issues, fibroids, and female cancers)
When I met Blake the following hour, I was struck by the ways in which he was almost a mirror image of Margo. A carefree young man in his late twenties, Blake was the ultimate laid-back personality. He slept deeply but even after a good night's sleep, he rarely felt energetic. He loved his coffee a few times a day to energize him.

He had trouble focusing on any one activity for very long.

Strengths

  • Natural calm and ability to relax; high tolerance for stress
  • An undemanding and accepting nature
  • A broad focus; a wide range of interests
  • An ability to sleep well

Weaknesses
  • Trouble revving up
  • Difficulty maintaining focus; distractibility
  • Weak memory
  • Tendency toward depression

The COMT gene determines your ability to process catechols, estrogen, and some major neurotransmitters: dopamine, norepinephrine (noradrenaline), and epinephrine (adrenaline).

Dopamine

Dopamine is a neurotransmitter involved in excitement, thrills, and uncertainty. A burst of dopamine is a huge reward; it makes you feel terrific! When I tell you that falling in love is accompanied by a huge dopamine rush, you can see how good it makes you feel. Dopamine is also present in high levels when you're gambling, riding a roller coaster, or getting ready to meet a big challengecany high-stakes activity where the outcome feels uncertain.

Norepinephrine and Epinephrine

Norepinephrine and epinephrine are your two key stress neurotransmitters. They help you rev yourself up for big challenges anything that requires extra physical or emotional effort. I

Margo's slow COMT was slow to clear catechols, estrogen, dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine from her system. As a result, her levels of these compounds tended to be high. The extra estrogen gave Margo glowing skin and good sexual function, but it also caused monster PMS and put her at risk for breast and ovarian cancer.

Only half-joking, I told Margo, Most of the time, you're Superwoman. You’ve got tons of energy, drive, and focus.

Blake's dirty COMT the mirror image of Margo's, as I noted earlier was fast. It metabolized catechols, estrogen, and stress neurotransmitters so quickly that Blake's levels were usually low.

Meanwhile, Blake's low levels of stress neurotransmitters gave him an enviable serenity and calm an admirable ability to shake off the little irritants of life that so often bother the rest of us. Most things genuinely didn't bother Blake; he was wired for acceptance, adjustment, and compromise.

The downside was that he often lacked the ability to focus, bear down, and get things done. He didn't mind if you were an hour late to an appointment but he didn't necessarily mind if he was, either. And since his dopamine levels tended to be low, he often lacked energy and confidence. I do my best,” he told me, but I don't expect that much to come of it.
I have a confession: I’m a Blake. I have a fast COMT. I’m very relaxed, but I have to work extra hard to stay focused. Untended to, I’ll literally get nothing all day. Some of the strategies in this thread can help if you have those tendencies as well, or we can discuss more.
 
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Get rid of breads and pastas too if you eat them.

Then add in a bowl, one bigger than your head, of leafy greens like spinach for the iron. Do this the night before, for dinner. No later than 10PM. You'll wake up the next morning like coffee is a primitive tool. If you've ever wondered why people get up at 5 in the morning, you'll find it's not all about willpower and alarm clocks.
Can someone (or @ApparentHorizon directly) elaborate on this? Thank you
 

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Can someone (or @ApparentHorizon directly) elaborate on this? Thank you
Processed grains are basically poison. They prevent your body from absorbing important minerals. Including iron, zinc, magnesium, calcium, and a few others.

(I'm being dramatic. they won't kill you....too quickly)

If you need the carbs, eat whole grain like steel cut oats.

Iron helps your cells carry oxygen around your body. Including your brain!

The majority of people in the world have an iron deficiency and they don't even know it.
 

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I have a confession: I’m a Blake. I have a fast COMT. I’m very relaxed, but I have to work extra hard to stay focused. Untended to, I’ll literally get nothing all day. Some of the strategies in this thread can help if you have those tendencies as well, or we can discuss more.
Great thread. This stuff fascinates me and allowed me to dive a bit deeper into some areas I was already digging in.

I'm a Blake as well, and I just googled "COMT inhibitors" and saw that they are medications used for Parkinson's.

My grandpa had Parkinson's and it kind of worries me that I might get it, since I'm already aware of dopamine-related issues I have. (I also have uncontrollable leg muscle twitches that don't change no matter how much I try to manipulate my electrolytes... they're not bad enough to affect my movement at all, but I know they are there, and it's very visible to the naked eye if I point it out to someone)

I've tried Adderall before (got my hands on a month's supply), and it was a miracle drug for me. But I'm not the type to want to treat myself with pharmaceuticals and prefer more natural/less risky methods.

Any recommendations you can give me, or more things to look into? I already eat a high-protein diet loaded with tyrosine/tryptophan. I saw you said matcha tea helps as well for COMT inhibition.

Thanks man! Loving the thread.
 
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Hannibal Lecter was down with some Velvet Beans!
 
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Great thread. This stuff fascinates me and allowed me to dive a bit deeper into some areas I was already digging in.

I'm a Blake as well, and I just googled "COMT inhibitors" and saw that they are medications used for Parkinson's.

My grandpa had Parkinson's and it kind of worries me that I might get it, since I'm already aware of dopamine-related issues I have. (I also have uncontrollable leg muscle twitches that don't change no matter how much I try to manipulate my electrolytes... they're not bad enough to affect my movement at all, but I know they are there, and it's very visible to the naked eye if I point it out to someone)

I've tried Adderall before (got my hands on a month's supply), and it was a miracle drug for me. But I'm not the type to want to treat myself with pharmaceuticals and prefer more natural/less risky methods.

Any recommendations you can give me, or more things to look into? I already eat a high-protein diet loaded with tyrosine/tryptophan. I saw you said matcha tea helps as well for COMT inhibition.

Thanks man! Loving the thread.
Yep.. Parkinson’s is a dopamine related disorder which is why they use COMT Inhibitors. There's actually a reduced pd risk if you drink tea or cocoa:

Protective Mechanisms of Flavonoids in Parkinson's Disease

Neuroprotective effect of bioflavonoid quercetin in 6-hydroxydopamine-induced oxidative stress biomarkers in the rat striatum.

Cocoa is one of the most rich sources of bioflavonoids, and green or matcha tea is great too.

But this thread is almost 4 years old. I have seriously updated and organized all this in recent weeks:


I wrote about COMT here, but there are a bunch of different genes affecting the DA system. MAOB, DRD2, MTHFR, etc.

Then diet, exercise, habit.

I added a bunch of new solutions there. Any questions it may be better asking there

Parkinson's is a little different than other dopamine disorders because it involves death of dopamine producing cells. If it's that serious, I'd talk to a neurologist, since only they'll be able to know for sure. One thing they prescribe is L-DOPA, which bypasses a rate limiting step of Tyrosine:

26616

Essentially the body limits the amount of Tyrosine that can be metabolized, but it doesn't do that (as much) with L-DOPA.

Might be worth getting a $99 23andme test to see what you're working with genetically.

And I agree, Adderall isn't a great long term solution, but since you felt relief that does indicate that other methods of raising DA should work for you.
 

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Neuroplasticity is one thing, and it's touted in Self Help books as hard science, but dopamine is almost completely responsible for our reward system. People with low dopamine aren't driven by reward systems at all. There have been experiments where scientists gave rats drugs to block their dopamine receptors. They put them right next to food. The rats didn't even have the motivation to eat the food that was right next to them as they sat there and died.

The less dopamine the rats had, the less drive they had to seek rewards.



It's not about excuses, it's about finding the actual cause of things so that you can apply a solution. For example, you can influence dopamine through diet, which is one way to boost motivation where all the positive thinking in the world wouldn't do any good.

You have a kid with ADHD (a condition caused by low dopamine,) and he lacks the drive necessary to do well in school. You give him Adderal or Ritilin, TEN MINUTES later he will be functioning amazingly.

It's not about excuses. it's about finding answers that actually work.

The "excuses" mentality reminds me of this cartoon:



This is the old way of thinking. People used to think "oh you're depressed?! just cheer up" but we now know that depression is a actual, PHYSICAL problem and no matter how much cheering up and rays of sunshine and "think of butterflies," that person will never get better unless their brain chemistry issue is addressed. To call "Brain Chemistry" an excuse is like calling Diabetes an excuse.

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...
Imagine your childhood, you're about 7 years old. You're spending the weekend with your grandmother, she lives in the inner city. You had to beg and fight for your parents to allow you to take your new bike with you for the weekend.

You're at your grandma's. You ride your bike before dinner. After you've eaten, you go outside. You panic. Your bike is gone.

Your parents were right. Not only that you're not getting a new one. So out of her basement closet, grandma pulls out a gift wrapped box.

Hesitant, you unwrap it slowly, fighting back tears. Knowing it's not a bike.

"It was for your birthday," swallows your grandma with a smile...

You tilt your head, 'Nintendo 64,' & 'Super Mario 64...'

If one develops an addiction to video games, it would be this. Anytime they feel violated, they will jump on the game. But without knowing why they lose control. Like a magician. If the person doesn't know how the trick is performed, it seems real.

"Power lies in 'Why' it is the most powerful question in existence." - Ba Roje

My point is getting out of depression takes work. To have someone there to say "Cheer up," is a blessing. Everyone gets depressed, even dogs. The people telling you to cheer up are telling you to fight. And when you win, you realize you were being stupid.
 
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So you assume I'm a layperson. Assumptions are very dangerous, someone in your profession should know that ;)

I'm not interested in a debate either, but I felt compelled to say something because I KNOW how dangerous and disempowering those things I pointed out that you said are, and I don't want people to pick them up as an excuse, and suffer needlessly because of it.
About the chart: Adderall is not a nootropic, it is a hard drug. It contains meth. METH. Yes, there are many drugs that will make a person feel motivated. That doesn't mean that it's a good idea to depend on a substance.

That aside, I take issue with these statements, that I think are very dangerous:



I would be very careful with blaming stuff on brain chemistry. I've been down that road.

I've read the article you linked in the other thread. It mostly just says: "We set up some games where you can win fictional money by doing a task, and the ones that were more motivated to play that particular game had more dopamine 'here', and the ones who didn't make as good an effort had more dopamine 'there'".

It's easy to twist that to mean: "Some people are naturally more motivated because they naturally have more of neurotransmitter X in location Y"

Which would be convenient, because it enables a victim mindset, letting people think: "See, finally there is proof that things are just harder for me, because others have more of neurotransmitter X in location Y. That's it, it's decided. My life is hard."
Very dangerous trap indeed.

I know, because I spent many years believing that I have AD(H)D, and so concentration and motivation was harder for me. Until I figured out that that belief itself was the trap, the only reason I was not motivated/focused is because society had invented an excuse for me, and I had gladly accepted it, not knowing what I was doing to myself.

But this is a trap. In no way does the research say that this is something that is fixed to the person.

It doesn't say that someone is born with it.

It doesn't even prove a causal link, whatsoever!

Actually the only thing it says, is that if you try hard at a certain game, you have a certain dopamine profile.

The causal link may just as well be the other way: "If you pick the harder challenges in a game, YOU GET more dopamine in your striatum and ventromedial prefrontal cortex, and less dopamine in the anterior insula."

Just as likely, from the research.

See how different it sounds, though? Suddenly it's no longer something to blame stuff on, but to take action on!!!


Confusing correlation for a causal link is a trap you see everywhere in science journalism.

Don't be a victim of it!!!
Here, I'll reply to this here just to show I'm not being a dick.

First - there's no meth in Adderall. There's amphetamine in adderall, but not methamphetamine. This is different because it doesn't hit the brain as fast and create as much euphoria. That being said, Adderall isn't the best solution for low motivation, in my opinion. It releases dopamine in a depleting way.

That being said - the link between catecholamines like dopamine and norepinephrine and motivation is causal. The initial study linked may have been correlational, but there are tons of experimental studies on this. For instance, if you selectively destroy dopamines in rodents they lose all motivation to do anything. They won't eat, they won't drink and need to be artificially nourished. In humans if you prescribe dopamine blockers such as seroquel or abilify, the same happens. An almost complete loss in motivation, depending on the dose. If you breed rodents with certain dopamine-lacking genes, they'll refuse to exercise, while other rodents with the same genes (aside from the hypodopamenergic ones) will run on their stupid wheel for infinity days.

Furthermore dopamine projects to the prefrontal cortex, which is the seat of willpower. Damage to the prefrontal cortex (physical or chemical) leads to an almost complete destruction of willpower. The most famous case is Phineas Gage.

That said, chemicals are a two way street; thinking affects chemicals; chemicals affect thinking. But there are a bunch of genotypes that cause people to have lower levels of reward chemicals.
 
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I'm not interested in a debate either, but I felt compelled to say something because I KNOW how dangerous and disempowering those things I pointed out that you said are, and I don't want people to pick them up as an excuse, and suffer needlessly because of it.
But it's not disempowering. Saying ADHD or motivation issues are 'all in your head' is like saying depression is 'all in your head.' People often need actual treatment and a realistic view of whats going on in order to combat it. Sure to an extent if they make an identity out of it itcan make it worse, but people are born with ADHD. According to over 30 twin studies, ADHD is 76% heritable, and the remaining 24% is due to brain injury. Note there are no factors such as 'he only believes he has ADHD'

This is all stuff I've gone over in other threads, hence my reluctance to go over it again
 

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But it's not disempowering. Saying ADHD or motivation issues are 'all in your head' is like saying depression is 'all in your head.' People often need actual treatment and a realistic view of whats going on in order to combat it. Sure to an extent if they make an identity out of it itcan make it worse, but people are born with ADHD. According to over 30 twin studies, ADHD is 76% heritable, and the remaining 24% is due to brain injury. Note there are no factors such as 'he only believes he has ADHD'

This is all stuff I've gone over in other threads, hence my reluctance to go over it again
As someone that's struggled with depression and who has immediate family members with ADHD, understanding the totality of what's going on is very helpful. (that includes the 'sickness' aspect of it, whats happening in brain chemistry, but also how an individual's behavior contributes to the problem).

For both conditions, there are things that the person struggling with the condition can do that will dramatically improve things. Drugs can also help dramatically. Often the two working together will be even more effective. (but not always). In both conditions, drugs and therapy are often used in conjunction with each other for a while, and then, sometimes, the patient is weaned off the drugs, leaving only the new thought processes and behaviors learned in counseling.

The thing, though, is that those behavioral and thought changes are not obvious to the person suffering. Trying harder doesn't work. At all. It just makes things worse. What does work are very specific techniques, changes in thought processes, catching thoughts before they become obsessions, etc that can really only be learned through counseling.
 

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ADHD is absolutely real. I take Welbutrin xl450mg a day and 80 mg of Strattera as well. I was actually prescribed valium when I was 6 before going to a specialist and becoming one of the earliest users of ritalin in 1967.

Went off the drugs to join the Navy. Fast forward 20 years and I'm at yet another job trying to figure out why I cannot get anything done. Got back on meds and was able to do much more.

@ChrisV keep dishing out the good info! I'm building a framework so I can succeed in the TMF life
 
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As someone that's struggled with depression and who has immediate family members with ADHD, understanding the totality of what's going on is very helpful. (that includes the 'sickness' aspect of it, whats happening in brain chemistry, but also how an individual's behavior contributes to the problem).

For both conditions, there are things that the person struggling with the condition can do that will dramatically improve things. Drugs can also help dramatically. Often the two working together will be even more effective. (but not always). In both conditions, drugs and therapy are often used in conjunction with each other for a while, and then, sometimes, the patient is weaned off the drugs, leaving only the new thought processes and behaviors learned in counseling.

The thing, though, is that those behavioral and thought changes are not obvious to the person suffering. Trying harder doesn't work. At all. It just makes things worse. What does work are very specific techniques, changes in thought processes, catching thoughts before they become obsessions, etc that can really only be learned through counseling.
Thanks for putting that out there. Depression is no joke. I had serotonin related depression for ~10 years and it wrecked havok on my life. People told me to 'cheer up' but the only thing that worked was fixing the chemicals and CBT. Fast forward 4 years and the same story with my ADHD.

ADHD is absolutely real. I take Welbutrin xl450mg a day and 80 mg of Strattera as well. I was actually prescribed valium when I was 6 before going to a specialist and becoming one of the earliest users of ritalin in 1967.

Went off the drugs to join the Navy. Fast forward 20 years and I'm at yet another job trying to figure out why I cannot get anything done. Got back on meds and was able to do much more.

@ChrisV keep dishing out the good info! I'm building a framework so I can succeed in the TMF life
I love it. Seriously. Wellbutrin and Strattera are amazing meds. Strattera changed my life when I was on it.

69019727_1611434168987230_695135680853966848_n-2.jpg

(Note: thats not me lol)
 

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Thanks for putting that out there. Depression is no joke. I had serotonin related depression for ~10 years and it wrecked havok on my life. People told me to 'cheer up' but the only thing that worked was fixing the chemicals and CBT. Fast forward 4 years and the same story with my ADHD.


I love it. Seriously. Wellbutrin and Strattera are amazing meds. Strattera changed my life when I was on it.

View attachment 27849

(Note: thats not me lol)
The reason most people say to 'cheer up' is because that works for them. When they get sad, they can start thinking happy thoughts, and that makes them happy.

For depressed people, saying that same thing is like telling an animal in a tar pit to just pick up their feet and walk out. The more the animal tries, the deeper they sink.
 
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ChrisV

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The reason most people say to 'cheer up' is because that works for them. When they get sad, they can start thinking happy thoughts, and that makes them happy.

For depressed people, saying that same thing is like telling an animal in a tar pit to just pick up their feet and walk out. The more the animal tries, the deeper they sink.
Yep... people equate depression with sadness, but that's not really what it is for people with actual depression.

In the same vein when peoplehave ADHD/motivation problems people say 'you just gotta try' becasue of course... that's what works for them.

Reddit: Apparently ADHD doesn't exist and we're just lazy and need to try harder

But when there are legit chemical imbalances at the heart of those issues, you unfortunately can't just change them.
 

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Great thread. Thanks to whoever bumped it.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately because my little girl has adhd (inattentive type). Ultimately I plan to give her medication regularly. I’ve been putting it off though because everyone I mention it to acts horrified that I’d give “drugs” to a little kid, and then I doubt the decision all over again.

Granted, Medication does have side effects. So I’ve decided to push it off while I can.

So far she’s been keeping up in school - she’s super bright. The moment she starts to fall behind though we are starting meds.
 

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Here, I'll reply to this here just to show I'm not being a dick.

First - there's no meth in Adderall. There's amphetamine in adderall, but not methamphetamine. This is different because it doesn't hit the brain as fast and create as much euphoria. That being said, Adderall isn't the best solution for low motivation, in my opinion. It releases dopamine in a depleting way.

That being said - the link between catecholamines like dopamine and norepinephrine and motivation is causal. The initial study linked may have been correlational, but there are tons of experimental studies on this. For instance, if you selectively destroy dopamines in rodents they lose all motivation to do anything. They won't eat, they won't drink and need to be artificially nourished. In humans if you prescribe dopamine blockers such as seroquel or abilify, the same happens. An almost complete loss in motivation, depending on the dose. If you breed rodents with certain dopamine-lacking genes, they'll refuse to exercise, while other rodents with the same genes (aside from the hypodopamenergic ones) will run on their stupid wheel for infinity days.

Furthermore dopamine projects to the prefrontal cortex, which is the seat of willpower. Damage to the prefrontal cortex (physical or chemical) leads to an almost complete destruction of willpower. The most famous case is Phineas Gage.

That said, chemicals are a two way street; thinking affects chemicals; chemicals affect thinking. But there are a bunch of genotypes that cause people to have lower levels of reward chemicals.
You were replying to a different thread. I get it now
 
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ChrisV

ChrisV

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I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately because my little girl has adhd (inattentive type). Ultimately I plan to give her medication regularly. I’ve been putting it off though because everyone I mention it to acts horrified that I’d give “drugs” to a little kid, and then I doubt the decision all over again.

Granted, Medication does have side effects. So I’ve decided to push it off while I can.

So far she’s been keeping up in school - she’s super bright. The moment she starts to fall behind though we are starting meds.
So here's the thing. Medication is considered safe for children as young as 5!


But I agree... people usually do freak out. Doctors don't though.

When medication is prescribed, the AAP recommends starting children ages 4-5 on a methylphenidate medication trial beginning with a low dose. Because children respond differently to medication, what may work for one child may not work for another. The health care professional can adjust the dose to determine if it is helping, if a different medication is needed or if any side effects are present. Treating ADHD is complex, and it is important to continually monitor children to see if the treatment is working. This includes periodically repeating the rating scale assessments to make sure the medication and behavioral therapy are having the desired effect. Additionally, the AACAP Preschool Pharmacology Working Group recommends that preschoolers who are taking ADHD medication have their medication stopped (under the prescribing doctor’s direction) after 6 months to reassess the symptoms and to consider whether the medication should be continued.
Methylphenidate is considered a better alternative than Adderall at that age.

Side effects should be negligible if the dose is right. ADHD meds are notorious for having a low side effect profile. ADHD is usually cause by low dopamine and the meds simply raise it. So it's basically normalizing the levels, which is why it's so well-tolerated side effect wise. I know there are pediatricians that specialize in ADHD, so that may be an option.
 

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Yep we’ve been working on medication since she was 5. I’ll try one medicine, either it doesn’t have an effect or the side effects are too crazy and then I wait to start on the next one. She’ll be 7 next month and I feel better about having waited until she got a drop older.

The medicine we’re working on now is quillivant. It’s a long acting form of Ritalin. I think that’s the medicine you were referring to?
 
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ChrisV

ChrisV

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The medicine we’re working on now is quillivant. It’s a long acting form of Ritalin. I think that’s the medicine you were referring to?
Yea, methylphenydate.

If you want to get real fancy you can get a genetic test done which will tell you exctly which medications or combincations eill work perfectly.

I spoke about that approach here.

I love how open you are and that you actually go with the recommendations of the medical community rather than the peanut gallery who think they understand this.
 

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Here, I'll reply to this here just to show I'm not being a dick.

First - there's no meth in Adderall. There's amphetamine in adderall, but not methamphetamine. This is different because it doesn't hit the brain as fast and create as much euphoria. That being said, Adderall isn't the best solution for low motivation, in my opinion. It releases dopamine in a depleting way.

That being said - the link between catecholamines like dopamine and norepinephrine and motivation is causal. The initial study linked may have been correlational, but there are tons of experimental studies on this. For instance, if you selectively destroy dopamines in rodents they lose all motivation to do anything. They won't eat, they won't drink and need to be artificially nourished. In humans if you prescribe dopamine blockers such as seroquel or abilify, the same happens. An almost complete loss in motivation, depending on the dose. If you breed rodents with certain dopamine-lacking genes, they'll refuse to exercise, while other rodents with the same genes (aside from the hypodopamenergic ones) will run on their stupid wheel for infinity days.

Furthermore dopamine projects to the prefrontal cortex, which is the seat of willpower. Damage to the prefrontal cortex (physical or chemical) leads to an almost complete destruction of willpower. The most famous case is Phineas Gage.

That said, chemicals are a two way street; thinking affects chemicals; chemicals affect thinking. But there are a bunch of genotypes that cause people to have lower levels of reward chemicals.
Those findings do indicate a causal link, unlike the article you linked. I'm glad we agree. You have shown that you were quote not just being a dick, ha ha.

Now what would be interesting is to see studies that explore it the other way! What happens to dopamine when you display motivated behaviour!
 

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Action is emotions and emotions are like water in a vase (your body). If it sits there too long things get moldy and will turn out terribly. You have to be like a river. Constantly moving and bringing in fresh nutrients constantly. Making life feel new. This is the difference. If your feeling stuck literally jump up and down furiously. Sing your brains out in public. Do SOMETHING. That’ll kick start your a$$.
 
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ChrisV

ChrisV

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Those findings do indicate a causal link, unlike the article you linked. I'm glad we agree. You have shown that you were quote not just being a dick, ha ha.

Now what would be interesting is to see studies that explore it the other way! What happens to dopamine when you display motivated behaviour!
it's released; but releasing it can deplete it for later use.
 

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Amazing thread, I loved reading every bit of it, thank you.

This thread reminds me of a book that I meant to read and was related to diet and mood, but I forgot about it (the one time I don't write it down). All I remember is that it had "Mood" in the title, and it was suggested in this forum, so maybe someone can help me out.
 

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Amazing thread, I loved reading every bit of it, thank you.

This thread reminds me of a book that I meant to read and was related to diet and mood, but I forgot about it (the one time I don't write it down). All I remember is that it had "Mood" in the title, and it was suggested in this forum, so maybe someone can help me out.
Was it the mood cure? I read that one several years ago. There have been loads of updated books released since though.
 

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