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NOTABLE! What's the difference between Slackers and Go Getters? The answer may have to do w/ brain chemistry.

ChrisV

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I don't like when people post stuff like this because it gives slackers excuses for being slackers.

Even if this is true that "slackers" and "go-getters" have different brain chemistry (which I don't know for certain it is) that doesn't mean that we aren't the cause of said brain chemistry. The brain has the ability to change itself (neuro-plasticity) based on repeated thoughts and actions.

So if you let yourself consistently have weak thoughts, then your brain will literally change itself to accommodate for it. It will prune unused/lightly used neural pathways and strengthen the prevalent neural pathways. The problem with the slackers is that they have allowed themselves to have weak thoughts and ,over time, this changed their brains making it easier to fall into the weak thought patterns.



"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."
-Aristotle


"Watch your thoughts, they become words.
Watch your words, they become actions.
Watch your actions, they become habits.
Watch your habits, they become your character.
Watch your character, it becomes your destiny."
-Chinese proverb
 
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ChrisV

ChrisV

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Neuroplasticity is one thing, and it's touted in Self Help books as hard science, but dopamine is almost completely responsible for our reward system. People with low dopamine aren't driven by reward systems at all. There have been experiments where scientists gave rats drugs to block their dopamine receptors. They put them right next to food. The rats didn't even have the motivation to eat the food that was right next to them as they sat there and died.

The less dopamine the rats had, the less drive they had to seek rewards.



It's not about excuses, it's about finding the actual cause of things so that you can apply a solution. For example, you can influence dopamine through diet, which is one way to boost motivation where all the positive thinking in the world wouldn't do any good.

You have a kid with ADHD (a condition caused by low dopamine,) and he lacks the drive necessary to do well in school. You give him Adderal or Ritilin, TEN MINUTES later he will be functioning amazingly.

It's not about excuses. it's about finding answers that actually work.

The "excuses" mentality reminds me of this cartoon:



This is the old way of thinking. People used to think "oh you're depressed?! just cheer up" but we now know that depression is a actual, PHYSICAL problem and no matter how much cheering up and rays of sunshine and "think of butterflies," that person will never get better unless their brain chemistry issue is addressed. To call "Brain Chemistry" an excuse is like calling Diabetes an excuse.

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ChrisV

ChrisV

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And dopamine isn't regulated by your thoughts. It's synthesized by an amino acid called L-Tyrosine which converts to L-DOPA and finally Dopamine.


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Gsuz

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I think it very much has to do with your initial driving factors. Pull Motivations always work a lot more than Push Motivation. You can learn more about what I mean here
You would get a better response if you actually took the time to explain those concepts within your posts or a thread and then drop a link at the end, in case someone wants a more detailed read.

Looking at the analytics of your bitly link: https://bitly.com/1F1ELD0+ we can see 24 totally worthless clicks in a spawn of 2 months. I'd increase my efforts and create content that people actually want to read and share. Good luck
 

Chazmania

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That cartoon was pretty funny though.

I do agree about the brain plasticity thing because let's say I've had a real shitty day and I'm feeling down. I go to the doctor that very day and they test my brain chemistry. Then the doctor prints out the report comes back in and says "yes you have lower than normal dopamine levels, the proof is right here. Let's get you on some of these expensive meds that will pay for my new porsche that I've been eyeing up."

If I went into the doctor for the same test after an awesome day the chemistry results would no doubt be much different.
 
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ChrisV

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Completely agree, but pthe idea of doctors getting kickbacks from the drugs they prescribed is a myth. It's completely illegal for doctors to receive payments for what they prescribe.

My only problem with the neural plasticity idea is that self-help authors take that one little tiny bit of science that they know and abuse the shit out of it and try to use it as evidence that positive thinking is all you need to succeed. Try positive thinking when you're clinically depressed and your serotonin levels are almost 0… You will never be able to do it no matter what Rhonda Byrne said about neural plasticity. Your brain is a physical machine and all the laws of physics apply to it

Self-helpism is not science and it actually agrivates me when they blaspheme the name of science with their pseudoscience.

To be frank… They honestly just make shit up with no regard to actual facts and actual research.

One other example is serotonin. Serotonin is derived from the amino acid tryptophan. Tryptophan is a protein. There have been studies where they fed people meals with every amino acid except tryptophan fora
Day or so. Every single person in the study developed depression. 100%. Just by depriving them of tryptophan, which lowers serotonin levels in the brain.

No amount of positive thinking will ever fix that.
 

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If thats true, someone should make a pill that makes your dopamine go to the striatum and ventromedial prefrontal cortex and turn you into a "go getter" ...action taker instead of action faker.
 
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If thats true, someone should make a pill that makes your dopamine go to the striatum and ventromedial prefrontal cortex and turn you into a "go getter" ...action taker instead of action faker.
They do. Adrenal and Ritalin are designed to do that.

But that's a really bad idea if you don't actually have ADHD because your body because your body become accustomed to them and you wind up with way LESS motivation than you started with. Bad news.

If you really wanna boost dopamine in a natural way, look into L-Tyrosine.

http://nootriment.com/l-tyrosine-uses/

http://www.limitlessmindset.com/nootropic-ingredients/323-l-tyrosine.html
 

Chazmania

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One other example is serotonin. Serotonin is derived from the amino acid tryptophan. Tryptophan is a protein. There have been studies where they fed people meals with every amino acid except tryptophan fora
Day or so. Every single person in the study developed depression. 100%. Just by depriving them of tryptophan, which lowers serotonin levels in the brain.
Very good to know
 

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this looks like an excuse a slacker would use
Not necessarily...I sometimes have "slacker" periods, having this information tells me there's a possible fixable REASON for it, makes me look into how to boost my levels of L-tyrosine, what else can I do?
 

Chazmania

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Not necessarily...I sometimes have "slacker" periods, having this information tells me there's a possible fixable REASON for it, makes me look into how to boost my levels of L-tyrosine, what else can I do?
Absolutely nothing wrong with knowing how to keep yourself healthy and functioning naturally without meds
 
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TheSilverSpoon

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Disappointing article. The big problem I had with it was how they chose to define the go-getters and slackers.

"Participants would be labeled as “go-getters” if they accepted harder challenges for more money, even when they were told they had a slim chance of winning, whereas less motivated participants would skip an attempt at a task if it cost them too much effort."

Rather lame definition of go-getters. Let's throw some numbers to it for example.
Challenge A: 10% chance of winning. $10 payout.
Challenge B: 50% change of winning. $3 payout.

Calculating the EV (which most true "go-getters" should have some innate sense of...)
Challenge A: +$1
Challenge B: +$1.50

The true go-getter should be choosing challenge B 100% of the time. I would, because that's the option that should net the highest lifetime yield. Yet that makes me a slacker in this study. The gamblers (slowlaners anyone?) would be the ones most likely to pick Challenge A, and be labeled as the go-getters here.

But gamblers are not go-getters. They do however, tend to have higher levels of dopamine than non-gamblers. Same rings true for addicts. Higher levels of dopamine than non-addicts.

The link between dopamine and impulsivity
Most dopamine medication has some warning about increasing impulsive behaviour. Levodopa (a leading dopamine agonist) for example
"may cause impulse-control disorders in some people. Impulse-control disorders include uncontrollable or problem gambling, sexual behavior, and shopping. Binge eating is another example."
http://www.webmd.com/parkinsons-disease/levodopa-medications-for-parkinsons-disease

This research didn't show or prove anything with regards to slackers and go-getters and the effect that dopamine may play on them. If anything, they have the results completely backwards.

Instead of
More dopamine -> harder challenges w/ lower outcomes of success -> being a 'go-getter'
Less dopamine -> easier challenges w/ higher outcomes of success -> being a 'slacker'

It should be
Less dopamine -> less impulsivity -> more rational thoughts -> better chance of 'go-getting'
More dopamine -> more impulsive -> more shiny object / binge watching / bong rips -> more slacking

PS if you don't know what EV is drop everything you are doing and go read this.
http://foreverjobless.com/ev-millionaires-math/
 
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ChrisV

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That's not the only study that's been done. Dopamine is responsible almost completely for our reward system.

And I think their definition was fair.

Code:
Participants would be labeled as “go-getters” if they accepted harder challenges for more money, even when they were told they had a slim chance of winning, whereas less motivated participants would skip an attempt at a task if it cost them too much effort. 

"Past studies in rats have shown that dopamine is crucial for reward motivation but this study provides new information about how dopamine determines individual differences in the behavior of human reward-seekers," study author Michael Treadway, a post-doctoral student, said in a university news release.

While, dopamine has generally been linked to motivation, researchers said that they were surprised to find that participants increased dopamine activity in the insula were the least likely to put in effort.







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CommonCents

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Brain and hormone science will be transformational. If you have a physiological problem, there is no amount of will power that will help. Cheaper more available and accurate diagnosis will make a big positive impact, IMHO. For most people without some major specific problems, eating better, being hydrated and working out makes big improvements.

interesting presentation, he does a series on PBS as well, probably online somewhere.
http://danielamenmd.amenclinics.com/media/dr-daniel-amen-at-tedx-orange-coast-the-most-important-lesson-from-83000-brain-scans/
 

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Ahhh, I have Dr. Amen's book - Change Your Brain, Change your Life. In it he tells a great story about a man who was always fun loving, caring, gentle until he suffered a head injury. All of a sudden he became violent, aggressive and would hurt his friends and family. It really makes you question the whole fabric of morality and even free will. How much free will do humans actually have?

Oh wow, he covers the case study of Andrew, the violent kid with the Cyst at 12:40.

Everyone needs to watch that video.


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The-J

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If you're here, this study doesn't apply to you. You're motivated enough to be here, which means your brain is capable of generating enough dopamine for you to get off your a$$.

Get back to work.
 

The Abundant Man

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Somebody gets angry and murders a person...oh it was just his/her amygdala/hypothalamus. No big deal
 
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ChrisV

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Wow, I posted this thread like 3 years ago. Before I was even active on the forum. Wonder why it just got bumped.

we've got a linker
Well they suspended his account. And I was actually curious what his article said. Oh well.
 
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ChrisV

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Somebody gets angry and murders a person...oh it was just his/her amygdala/hypothalamus. No big deal
And if there were a medication that could prevent those with violent tendencies from acting on those.. you don’t think society would benefit from investigating that avenue? Regardless,
 
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ChrisV

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Not necessarily...I sometimes have "slacker" periods, having this information tells me there's a possible fixable REASON for it, makes me look into how to boost my levels of L-tyrosine, what else can I do?
It’s a long topic but Google “Things to do to boost Dopamine” or “scientific ways to increase willpower"

I may on making a thread on this topic because it’s a ridiculously important and overlooked part of achievement.
 

rogue synthetic

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I don't like when people post stuff like this because it gives slackers excuses for being slackers.

Even if this is true that "slackers" and "go-getters" have different brain chemistry (which I don't know for certain it is) that doesn't mean that we aren't the cause of said brain chemistry. The brain has the ability to change itself (neuro-plasticity) based on repeated thoughts and actions.
Yeah. There are three takeaway lessons from this kind of reporting:

1. It is pop-science reporting, which means it is inevitably wrong or misleading, and drawing conclusions from it puts you further down the path of wrong. The Gell-Mann effect is real, folks.

2. The replication crisis that hit over the last 2-3 years has stuck a knife in a LOT of trendy psychological research. This is beyond a quick post. To be quick about it, most of the trendy pop-culture books and reporting and TED-talk-tier psychological and neuroscience feel-goods that came out over the last 5-15 years have proven hard or impossible to replicate in the lab. Also see 1, 2, 3. It is open season now on what psychological science really "knows" about any of these topics.

3. Even if we could take the findings at face value, the psychological sciences don't tell us much about the kinds of explanations they can offer. Pop-culture interpretations aside, no empirical psychological findings have ever been in the position to decided questions about "free will" or choice, or even whether there is a causal relationship between brain stuff and thought or behavior stuff. Obviously there is SOME connection, but the details are likely to be more complicated than simple if-X-then-Y cause and effect.

We're the only animals that can get physiologically stressed out worrying about death or TV shows. That little factoid makes it very hard to say that neuro-whatevers are the cause of feelings, thoughts, or behaviors.
 

The Abundant Man

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To me this is just another form of excusitis
 

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