The Worldwide C0VlD-19 Coronavirus Pandemic Discussion Thread...

[Thoelt53]

So what would you suggest? Bob is diagnosed with C0VlD-19 and refuses to stay home. What is your proposed solution?

Assuming it is a crime to do as Bob has done (I don’t know), then police would have to arrest Bob, charge him with a crime, and a court of law would determine if he is innocent or guilty. Until he is proven guilty he is in fact innocent. Only after proven guilty can Bob be punished for his actions.

 

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[Kak]

Okay, did a little legal research and the government does hold the right to apprehend individuals who might be infected with a communicable disease that could further a public health emergency.

Thats not really the question. They can and do grant themselves whatever powers they deem necessary. The true question should be whether that is OK with everyone. Evidently it is with the majority which is all that matters.

The majority is also what killed millions of Jews in the holocaust. Totally legal.

 

[Thoelt53]

Honest question: wasn't it a judge that issued the order to make those people wear ankle bracelets?

No, I believe it was an executive order signed by the governor.

 

[Jon L]

Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

I had a few points.

You previously mentioned Abe Lincoln and the Civil War, which I felt was a prime example of the danger that central governments pose. This is speculation, however, a divided nation could in fact lead to tyranny. Our history has shown us how far our own government will go to preserve itself.

Tying into my previous point is that a lack of care or knowledge of history is extremely dangerous. Most people understand the Civil War to be about slavery and state’s rights. Neither is really true. The war was fought over secession due to completely unfair taxes in the form of tariffs. Knowing this completely changes the narrative of US history. History tends to repeat itself when people forget the past.

The Civil War killed ~700,000 people, meanwhile C0VlD-19 is forecast to kill a fraction of that in the US.

Which is the bigger threat? C0VlD-19 or our own government? What if our choices today lay the ground for a totalitarian regime in the US 20 years from now?

Are you familiar with democide?

20th Century Democide

www.hawaii.edu

That's a lot of points. In all of what has happened in US history, none of it led to totalitarian rule. That's not to say that it can't or won't at some point, but we have proven pretty resilient so far.

I think you would say that what we are doing with coronavirus is scary and not worth the potential costs. I think the costs you're talking about won't happen.

I'm not going to get into a discussion on the history. You know more about it than I do, but I also know a fair amount. And, you're coming across as condescending when you talk about it. That's not something I want to participate in.

One thing that is VERY good in all of what is going on is that the state governors have stepped up in a major way. Trump has let them, and done things that empower them to lead.

 

[ChrisV]

The true question should be whether that is OK with everyone. Evidently it is with the majority which is all that matters.

Some douchenozzle going around coughing on everyone when there’s a public health crisis being told to stay home for 2 weeks? yea honestly I’m fine with it

if there are real civil rights violated anywhere I’ll be the first to speak up though (ie the encryption bill)

 

[1step]

No, I believe it was an executive order signed by the governor.

I live in Kentucky, judges are issuing these ankle bracelets

 

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[Jon L]

No, I believe it was an executive order signed by the governor.

the one I just googled was signed by a judge:

4th Louisville resident ordered to self-quarantine with ankle monitor due to coronavirus

The person refused to sign an agreed order to quarantine and his sister says the individual "leaves the home often."

www.courier-journal.com

 

[Thoelt53]

That's a lot of points. In all of what has happened in US history, none of it led to totalitarian rule. That's not to say that it can't or won't at some point, but we have proven pretty resilient so far.

I think you would say that what we are doing with coronavirus is scary and not worth the potential costs. I think the costs you're talking about won't happen.

I'm not going to get into a discussion on the history. You know more about it than I do, but I also know a fair amount. And, you're coming across as condescending when you talk about it. That's not something I want to participate in.

One thing that is VERY good in all of what is going on is that the state governors have stepped up in a major way. Trump has let them, and done things that empower them to lead.

Care to point out where I was condescending? Was it where I used the term “most people” or asked you some thought provoking questions?

Yes I too am glad that the governors have stepped up to exert the full extent of their powers. We must obey whatever Dear Governor says. Dear Governor knows what is best.

There’s some condescension for ya.

 

[Kak]

Some douchenozzle going around coughing on everyone when there’s a public health crisis being told to stay home for 2 weeks? yea honestly I’m fine with it

if there are real civil rights violated anywhere I’ll be the first to speak up though (ie the encryption bill)

Due process is the 4th amendment right in the constitution. It’s kind of a big deal.

 

[Thoelt53]

the one I just googled was signed by a judge:

4th Louisville resident ordered to self-quarantine with ankle monitor due to coronavirus

The person refused to sign an agreed order to quarantine and his sister says the individual "leaves the home often."

www.courier-journal.com

I stand corrected.

 

[ChrisV]

Due process is the 4th amendment right in the constitution. It’s kind of a big deal.

I really don't know the specifics of the case; how do we even know he wasn't given due process? If the state government has the right to quarantine people who are at risk of spreading an infectious disease then he broke the law. Everyone is assuming he wasn't given due process and I don't see the evidence.

 

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[Kak]

I really don't know the specifics of the case; how do we even know he wasn't given due process? If the state government has the right to quarantine people who are at risk of spreading an infectious disease then he broke the law. Everyone is assuming he wasn't given due process and I don't see the evidence.

You are absolutely are right about that. Due process really is arbitrary at this point and subject to what the majority decide it means.

Jews probably got Nazi due process too.

 

[Thoelt53]

I really don't know the specifics of the case; how do we even know he wasn't given due process? If the state government has the right to quarantine people who are at risk of spreading an infectious disease then he broke the law. Everyone is assuming he wasn't given due process and I don't see the evidence.

Louisville is forcing unwilling coronavirus patients to self-isolate. Is it right?

City officials have employed the use of court-ordered ankle bracelet monitoring for coronavirus patients who refuse to self-quarantine.

www.courier-journal.com

Health officials complained to a judge who issued the order without a trial because no crime was committed.

People are complying out of fear.

FYI, this doesn’t mean I don’t think the guy is an a**hole. But let facts be facts.

 

[Jon L]

Care to point out where I was condescending? Was it where I used the term “most people” or asked you some thought provoking questions?

Yes I too am glad that the governors have stepped up to exert the full extent of their powers. We must obey whatever Dear Governor says. Dear Governor knows what is best.

There’s some condescension for ya.

We don't know each other, and that's a conversation better had in a different context

I much prefer a governor doing that to the president. If Trump started declaring martial law, I'd be concerned. I like local power a lot more than centralized power.

 

[Thoelt53]

We don't know each other, and that's a conversation better had in a different context

I much prefer a governor doing that to the president. If Trump started declaring martial law, I'd be concerned. I like local power a lot more than centralized power.

What?

 

[Kak]

 

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[reedracer]

Due process is the 4th amendment right in the constitution. It’s kind of a big deal.

I assume you would have no trouble him being arrested and refused bail to await trial for failure to follow a lawful quarantine order? This way he can stay at his house and not infect the inmates and everyone else. NBD in my book

 

[ChickenHawk]

Assuming it is a crime to do as Bob has done (I don’t know), then police would have to arrest Bob, charge him with a crime, and a court of law would determine if he is innocent or guilty. Until he is proven guilty he is in fact innocent. Only after proven guilty can Bob be punished for his actions.

But in the meantime, he's allowed to walk around, knowingly spreading a highly contagious disease? This is silly. Do we let people walk around a school naked? Do we let people walk around cursing at strangers? Do we let people walk around spitting on people? The people in this idiot's vicinity have rights, too, and this jackass is infringing on them.

As a society, we restrict behavior all the time in line with our norms, customs, and public safety. For example, the naked guy has due process, too. Okay, fine, arrest him or whatever. But he isn't allowed to walk around naked while his court case is pending.

 

[MoneyDoc]

All some people in this thread see is what’s being fed to them. You don’t see what’s quietly happening in the background and that’s what 99% of people fail to see.

THIS PANDEMIC WILL END. LIVES HAVE BEEN LOST AND MORE WILL BE LOST. ITS LIFE. BUT WHAT HAPPENS AFTER WILL LEAVE A BIGGER SCAR THAN THIS VIRUS WILL EVER BE ABLE TO. THINK ABOUT POST-COVID 19.

It’s too late to think of “what if we did this”, “what if we contained it better”, “what if we have a national lockdown”. It’s over. You’re in the middle. There’s no going back. Think AHEAD.

 

[TheCj]

I've been trying to figure out why you think this way ... what is it that you believe that brings you to this conclusion. I believe its likely that we will prevent people from getting it if we quarantine for a bit longer, and then do massive testing afterwards. We'll keep the percent of the population that gets it to the single digits. That will save millions of lives in the US alone. Sounds like you don't think that's possible?

We know this started in China in Dec 2019 and it wasn't till Mid or Late January that China shut down Wuhan region.

So lets be optimistic and say only one infected person from that region flew from China to the USA in Mid January. This virus is known to have a doubling rate of over 2 every three days, lets be optimistic and say its 2. So in a one month span there will be 10 doubling periods. Which is 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 1024. So if only one infected person on one plane on one flight came to the USA from China lets say optimistically on the 15th of January. Then by the 15th of Feb through that one person about 1000 people will now be infected. Then a month later Mar. 15th those people would have infected more people at the same rate 1000 x 1000 gives a million people infected. The NBA closed on Mar. 11th i believe. To give a timestamp of when most peoples lives began to get disrupted. That is the most optimistic best case scenario.

Which leads to today that million would have doubled 6 more times at the optimistic rate. Maybe it's doubled less since some people have been in self isolation since, the NBA shut down etc.. Giving a range of anywhere from 1-64 million people being infected as of today with about 200k to 12 million people sick enough that they would get tested and show positive.

The reality is there would have been hundreds of flights from China to the USA between the time the Virus broke out and China shut down. Not to mention all the people who travel all over and contact people who contact people who came from China etc.. etc... All you need is 300 people to be infected to be in the USA before Middle of January and boom 300 x 1,000,000 and 300 million people are now infected. Also the infection rate is closer to 2.4 or something like that so that is why the testing will uncover so many infected people. If go with someone infected setting foot in the USA in middle of December a month earlier etc.. Then that is why you realize the numbers never made sense. Since that would mean every person on earth would have basically come into contact with a person that is infected etc...

Of course this doesn't take into consideration the realities of the real world where some people live in more isolated areas etc..

The assumption that North America has acted early enough is pretty false. The testing is uncovering how behind governments are here. The only reason the numbers aren't higher is because the count is limited by the number of tests being done. The number of tests being done are being controlled by governments. As well as the numbers they are reporting again controlled by government.

Also early numbers were saying 80% of cases will be mild, show no signs etc.. and a person would just think they had a normal flu. So if they are only testing people who are showing serious signs, then can multiply whatever the tested discovered number is by 5 to get the total number of people that were most likely infected.

Basically the day China locked down Wuhan, the whole world needed to lock down everything, to get a handle on this.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Kentucky is forcing coronavirus patients to wear ankle monitors

This is messy.

futurism.com

Edit: this is causing some confusion. These ankle bracelets were only given to people who're repeatedly refusing to quarantine.

Coronavirus patient put on house arrest for refusing ‘stay-at-home’ order

Some judges are now ordering C0VlD-19 patients who are refusing to stay home to wear GPS ankle bracelets.

fox4kc.com

I’m not afraid of the virus. I’m convinced I know several people who have had it.

What I’m worried about is how far our woke world will go to “protect” us.

 

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[Xeon]

 

[Kak]

But in the meantime, he's allowed to walk around, knowingly spreading a highly contagious disease? This is silly. Do we let people walk around a school naked? Do we let people walk around cursing at strangers? Do we let people walk around spitting on people? The people in this idiot's vicinity have rights, too, and this jackass is infringing on them.

As a society, we restrict behavior all the time in line with our norms, customs, and public safety. For example, the naked guy has due process, too. Okay, fine, arrest him or whatever. But he isn't allowed to walk around naked while his court case is pending.

You might be surprised by my response to this... But you shouldn’t be. I have consistently supported freedoms and individual liberty for 11 years on this forum. I believe what I preach. We will 100% certainly disagree, hopefully respectfully. Keep in mind the lynchmob is on your side so my opinions don’t really matter. You will get your way.

Here goes: I don’t want to lock someone up, arrest someone, throw tracking devices on their ankles or imprison anyone for “walking around” in public. I don’t think he should be locked in his home like a convicted criminal. This is NOT OK WITH ME.

By leaving our homes we, the healthy, are taking calculated risk. We obviously know this. Chances are there are 5 more infected, yet undocumented, cases in that same grocery store.

This is all made more interesting by the likelihood that most of us will get this. So this guy, Bob, gets basically imprisoned by the government to put off the inevitable when the rest of us get this?

Now when he/she is purposely coughing on or spitting on people we have an assault problem and a completely different scenario.

 

[ChickenHawk]

I have consistently supported freedoms and individual liberty this entire time. I believe what I preach. We will 100% certainly disagree, hopefully respectfully. Keep in mind the lynchmob is on your side so my opinions don’t really matter. You will get your way.

Quite true. You have supported freedoms the entire time, and normally I agree with you 100%.

And you're right in that once a government asserts a power, they don't relinquish it lightly. Maybe part of the difference with me is that I fully support medical quarantines in times of a pandemic and don't believe it's inevitable that we'll all get this. Plus, I don't see the ankle bracelet as a punishment so much as a better quarantine method.

Now when he/she is purposely coughing on or spitting on people we have an assault problem and a completely different scenario.

But isn't this the case here? Given the fact that we're not really testing people without symptoms, isn't this guy coughing, hacking, talking, etc. all over people whenever he goes out? Yes, he might not purposely time his coughs so it's in someone's face, but isn't he going out and spreading the disease every time he opens his mouth?

I know it's unlikely we'll agree on this issue, but I totally respect what you're saying and am thankful there are people like you who take such a strong stand for individual liberties. Normally, I'd be right there by your side, and hopefully the next time around, I will be.

 

[Kak]

Quite true. You have supported freedoms the entire time, and normally I agree with you 100%.

And you're right in that once a government asserts a power, they don't relinquish it lightly. Maybe part of the difference with me is that I fully support medical quarantines in times of a pandemic and don't believe it's inevitable that we'll all get this. Plus, I don't see the ankle bracelet as a punishment so much as a better quarantine method.


But isn't this the case here? Given the fact that we're not really testing people without symptoms, isn't this guy coughing, hacking, talking, etc. all over people whenever he goes out? Yes, he might not purposely time his coughs so it's in someone's face, but isn't he going out and spreading the disease every time he opens his mouth?

I know it's unlikely we'll agree on this issue, but I totally respect what you're saying and am thankful there are people like you who take such a strong stand for individual liberties. Normally, I'd be right there by your side, and hopefully the next time around, I will be.

I have definitely noticed your strong support for liberties as well over the years. I think, at this point, we are going to be splitting hairs and coming up with what if’s. We just disagree on this. It’s ok because it did actually put me in a pressure cooker and challenged me.

We are all learning and that is point of this place, because of that, I would say this discourse was successful.

 

[GPM]

Now when he/she is purposely coughing on or spitting on people we have an assault problem and a completely different scenario.

Some douche in Canada was doing exactly this, and was in fact charged with assault. Good.

If some a**hole coughs on me in public to be funny I think I should be able to defend myself accordingly. Too bad this is Canada though so the government expects me to take it or just go to jail myself.

 

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[Everyman]

All some people in this thread see is what’s being fed to them. You don’t see what’s quietly happening in the background and that’s what 99% of people fail to see.

THIS PANDEMIC WILL END. LIVES HAVE BEEN LOST AND MORE WILL BE LOST. ITS LIFE. BUT WHAT HAPPENS AFTER WILL LEAVE A BIGGER SCAR THAN THIS VIRUS WILL EVER BE ABLE TO. THINK ABOUT POST-COVID 19.

It’s too late to think of “what if we did this”, “what if we contained it better”, “what if we have a national lockdown”. It’s over. You’re in the middle. There’s no going back. Think AHEAD.

Hey Man - nice to see someone like-minded. Yep, global economy has been obliterated and we need to think about how to act after restrictions are lifted (if they are .......)... because freedoms once taken are usually not restored...

 

[Ernman]

Admittingly the odds of death in the young are extremely low but as a father we worry regardless. I listened to a recent podcast where the Doctor being interviewed stated that children now had a licence to kill. That really struck a cord. Just through the nature of being a child it made it so easy for them to pass the virus on. I think all schools should have been shut down sooner as I believe the spread would have been reduced by a significant factor which would have increased the available preparation time.

@RazorCut as the saying goes, hindsight is 20/20. And we're still a long way from having any real hindsight on this virus. We're all trying to make the best decisions we can based on the information available at the time. As we learn something new, we adjust - at least that is what intelligent people do.

 

[Thoelt53]

But in the meantime, he's allowed to walk around, knowingly spreading a highly contagious disease? This is silly. Do we let people walk around a school naked? Do we let people walk around cursing at strangers? Do we let people walk around spitting on people? The people in this idiot's vicinity have rights, too, and this jackass is infringing on them.

As a society, we restrict behavior all the time in line with our norms, customs, and public safety. For example, the naked guy has due process, too. Okay, fine, arrest him or whatever. But he isn't allowed to walk around naked while his court case is pending.

If the judge chooses to hold an infected individual without bail, which he or she probably would, that’s totally fine. It’s within the bounds of due process.

What we’re seeing here is someone being tracked via ankle bracelet without ever appearing before a judge. The article I linked to even stated the union representing the correction department wasn’t even sure they could legally apply the ankle bracelet.

 

[Ernman]

All some people in this thread see is what’s being fed to them. You don’t see what’s quietly happening in the background and that’s what 99% of people fail to see.

THIS PANDEMIC WILL END. LIVES HAVE BEEN LOST AND MORE WILL BE LOST. ITS LIFE. BUT WHAT HAPPENS AFTER WILL LEAVE A BIGGER SCAR THAN THIS VIRUS WILL EVER BE ABLE TO. THINK ABOUT POST-COVID 19.

It’s too late to think of “what if we did this”, “what if we contained it better”, “what if we have a national lockdown”. It’s over. You’re in the middle. There’s no going back. Think AHEAD.

@MoneyDoc - I don't disagree with you that we need to be thinking ahead. But please help me understand where you intended this comment to take us. Your lead in is telling us to pay attention to what's happening behind the scenes, but your ending says to think ahead. Please clarify.