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The consequences of this massive cash injection

hellolin

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I agree 2008 was systematic meltdown. I agree this is a naturally occurring global disaster.

If I'm understanding you correctly, I don't think it is gonna be ok in a few months. We were already long overdue for an economic contraction. This global disaster is much more than a catalyst for said contraction. The ripple effect has already been catastrophic in regards to the stock market, emergency fiscal policy (government packages), and the Fed's monetary policies (slashing rates and so on). I think @Rabby and @PizzaOnTheRoof are on to something. Btw, Rabby's second post was on point - thanks for that.

Its a very interesting time indeed. I see the functioning of the economic machine not nearly prepared for something like this. I think its gonna be worse than 2008 because there's a lot more wrong with our economic house of cards than just subprime loans and bank bailouts. I don't see it being apocalyptic or anything but I foresee a lot of economic pain going forward.

Every aspect of our macroeconomy is going to slow way down. It is going to continue to contract in a sort-of "domino effect". It will not be able to rebound as fast as it fell. It will be a long volatile process as the inertia has shifted and the momentum needs to be built back up again. That takes time. As far as when the recovery will begin... I think the panic will subside in the next couple months and people will shift from fear of what's going to happen to acceptance of the situation and making the necessary incentivized changes. Once that happens, the contraction will start to slow down.

Deflation is possible. Which is worse than inflation. What will probably happen is what @PizzaOnTheRoof said in #22.

Before all of it though, I see a moratorium. If not at the federal level than at the state or local levels.


I am surprised that you said a lot of nothing in a lot talking points, and I thought all this is going to lead to how we can finally have a proper deflation is good for the economy in the long term but short term pain can not be avoided, but then you also end up saying that deflation is worse than inflation. This made your entire point kind of confusing to be honest. You pointed out how you feel about the near future without saying a lot specifics, to be honest.

To say that I have confidence in american workers and businesses are a bit PC, let me praise it more clearly:

I have confidence in the ability of the american consumer to bounce back and consume once this pandemic is over, which it will be in 2 month, 3 month at the most (This is based on a reference point of China), then the bail out money and consumers will kick the economy into gear again. This means that lots of ads on TV and Radio about using your "Trump $1000 checks" for no money down on those 22 inch rims and 80 inch TVs, and houses with 0 down for everyone (Don't laugh, this is what the US do all the time to boost economy), especially at this time.
 

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I am surprised that you said a lot of nothing in a lot talking points, and I thought all this is going to lead to how we can finally have a proper deflation is good for the economy in the long term but short term pain can not be avoided, but then you also end up saying that deflation is worse than inflation. This made your entire point kind of confusing to be honest. You pointed out how you feel about the near future without saying a lot specifics, to be honest.

To say that I have confidence in american workers and businesses are a bit PC, let me praise it more clearly:

I have confidence in the ability of the american consumer to bounce back and consume once this pandemic is over, which it will be in 2 month, 3 month at the most (This is based on a reference point of China), then the bail out money and consumers will kick the economy into gear again. This means that lots of ads on TV and Radio about using your "Trump $1000 checks" for no money down on those 22 inch rims and 80 inch TVs, and houses with 0 down for everyone (Don't laugh, this is what the US do all the time to boost economy), especially at this time.
I agree that the US will bounce back 10 fold.

However, I think we will see a mindset shift in the US consumer after this is all over, which may have lasting effects since we’re the worlds greatest consumer.
 

hellolin

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I agree that the US will bounce back 10 fold.

However, I think we will see a mindset shift in the US consumer after this is all over, which may have lasting effects since we’re the worlds greatest consumer.


I hardly agrees with that, consider most of our rants, including Mj himself on this forum, is about how mindless consumerism goes in the US, and we should not expect less this time around. Matter of fact, this is what I believe those 2 'free checks' coming in April and May is about. The line of thinking goes like this: what happened is already happening and there are nothing we can do about it anymore, but, we can do something that will help kick start the future if we can anticipate when this will be over. So why not give everyone on the main street some helicopter money when the recovery is likely to start in a month or 2 at the worst? Those $2500 or so for EVERYONE can be a nice down payment on a car or any home repair/shopping, and that can kick start a lot things into gear once this is over. We will have the luxury of not having to debate which regulation we will have to impose on wall street this time as well, and it sure is a lot easier for a politician to rally around an issue that everyone will be affectedly equally than some wall street vs main street stuff went on in 2008.

Now, if this temp recession end up blowing some Madoff shit overboard, like if we discovered that the entire thing Ray Dialo is running is a fraud or something ridiculous like that becoming true....well, well, then you might be right.
 
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sonny_1080

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I am surprised that you said a lot of nothing in a lot talking points, and I thought all this is going to lead to how we can finally have a proper deflation is good for the economy in the long term but short term pain can not be avoided, but then you also end up saying that deflation is worse than inflation. This made your entire point kind of confusing to be honest. You pointed out how you feel about the near future without saying a lot specifics, to be honest.

To say that I have confidence in american workers and businesses are a bit PC, let me praise it more clearly:

I have confidence in the ability of the american consumer to bounce back and consume once this pandemic is over, which it will be in 2 month, 3 month at the most (This is based on a reference point of China), then the bail out money and consumers will kick the economy into gear again. This means that lots of ads on TV and Radio about using your "Trump $1000 checks" for no money down on those 22 inch rims and 80 inch TVs, and houses with 0 down for everyone (Don't laugh, this is what the US do all the time to boost economy), especially at this time.
As soon as I pressed "Post reply" I thought to myself... "wow, I just used so many words to say absolutely nothing". I apologize for my pretentiousness everybody.

What I should've said was, we're in for harder times than 2008 for the majority of 2020 in my opinion. I don't see a way around it. Yes people will consume and shit will continue to function, but every economic metric will fall.
 

hellolin

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As soon as I pressed "Post reply" I thought to myself... "wow, I just used so many words to say absolutely nothing". I apologize for my pretentiousness everybody.

What I should've said was, we're in for harder times than 2008 for the majority of 2020 in my opinion. I don't see a way around it. Yes people will consume and shit will continue to function, but every economic metric will fall.


I think you are under estimate american consumers.

I think what is gonna happen in 6 month, is that you are gonna see a post here made by either MJ or Andy, complaining about how on their way driving to their business, they see all those shinning new Mercedes and Bimmers lined outside some dumpster apartment complex, funded by the down payment available mode by the Trump free money to the main street. This happens every time there is an economic recovery of some sort.
 

valuecreator

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Whether or not you believe this is a psy-op, the US$ is dead as a world reserve currency and we are seeing the end of the debt monetization. They are just squeezing the lemon real hard. It's called a financial reset.

They will blame this one on a virus and Orange Man Bad, but the bankers never take the blame anyways.

America's middle- class is about to disappear.

The real rich (the ones that own real assets, not paper assets) will be ok, the poor will still be poor.reservecurrency.jpg
 
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valuecreator

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btw, in a financial crisis, the pecking order of assets changes and Liquidity is king (Exter pyramid, below).

After the covert Minsky Moment we just experienced, people go in cash (or cash equiv.). That' when they pull the plug on the currencies and do the reset.

the coming one will be a crypto with social credit and carbon footprint components, brought in along with the universal basic income.

It's all laid out in Event 201 and 2030 Agenda.

exter pyramis.jpeg
 

tpuffer

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btw, in a financial crisis, the pecking order of assets changes and Liquidity is king (Exter pyramid, below).

After the covert Minsky Moment we just experienced, people go in cash (or cash equiv.). That' when they pull the plug on the currencies and do the reset.

the coming one will be a crypto with social credit and carbon footprint components, brought in along with the universal basic income.

It's all laid out in Event 201 and 2030 Agenda.

View attachment 31600

Do you have the link to the article the reverse pyramid is from?
 

hellolin

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There ain't gonna be any reset on world reserve currency, especially crypto. The Fed does not back up our $$$, it is the mighty military power of the US navy that backs it up. I have seen it up close for 5 years serving in 3 different aircraft carriers. There are now 2 of them in the Gulf right now waiting for "interesting party" to stri up shit while we are down and out and 1 out in Guam right now only due to the Virus outbreak on-board the ship. Financial power at the end, are just like all other forms of power, and as Mao ZeDong used to say: "All power comes from under the barrel of the gun". The USD won't start to lose its statues as the world's reserve dollar until our military suffers a crashing blow.
 
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Rabby

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btw, in a financial crisis, the pecking order of assets changes and Liquidity is king (Exter pyramid, below).

After the covert Minsky Moment we just experienced, people go in cash (or cash equiv.). That' when they pull the plug on the currencies and do the reset.

the coming one will be a crypto with social credit and carbon footprint components, brought in along with the universal basic income.

It's all laid out in Event 201 and 2030 Agenda.

View attachment 31600

Not sure I follow this pyramid chart. Is gold supposed to be good here, or credit default swaps and small business? I assume gold, given the color scheme. But I can't eat gold, not can I produce much with it (well, I can make very heavy bullets, but...), so why why is it so far removed from commodities, diamonds and gemstones, and small business? Where is medium sized and huge non-listed (private) business? I guess I'm just trying to see what the underlying logic is here.
 

lewj24

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The Fed does not back up our $$$, it is the mighty military power of the US navy that backs it up.

What does our military have to do with economics? Are we going to declare war on the countries that don't use our currency? Force it down their throats?
 
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Matt Sun

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What does are military have to do with economics? Are we going to declare war on the countries that don't use our currency? Force it down their throats?
You heard about Saddam Hussein and Gadafi ?

Anyway, i heard that trump united the FED with the treasure department.
 
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argelast

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Whether or not you believe this is a psy-op, the US$ is dead as a world reserve currency and we are seeing the end of the debt monetization. They are just squeezing the lemon real hard. It's called a financial reset.

They will blame this one on a virus and Orange Man Bad, but the bankers never take the blame anyways.

America's middle- class is about to disappear.

The real rich (the ones that own real assets, not paper assets) will be ok, the poor will still be poor.View attachment 31597

So what currency do you expect to substitute the dollar ? The only possible substitutes will be the Yuan or the Euro. I think the Yuan is not strong enough and the Euro doesn't want it or have posibilities. So I think it will take more years to see a change in the currency, I think the Dolar is the strongest currency by far ( oil, military, diplomacy, controled territory, PIB, ... ) compared to the next two Yuan and Euro. Maybe, maybe this could be the begging of the change, but I suppose it will take years.
 

tpuffer

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So what currency do you expect to substitute the dollar ? The only possible substitutes will be the Yuan or the Euro. I think the Yuan is not strong enough and the Euro doesn't want it or have posibilities. So I think it will take more years to see a change in the currency, I think the Dolar is the strongest currency by far ( oil, military, diplomacy, controled territory, PIB, ... ) compared to the next two Yuan and Euro. Maybe, maybe this could be the begging of the change, but I suppose it will take years.

The SDR - Special Drawing Right - has a strong potential to do so. (Special Drawing Right (SDR))

Any ideas where The IMF and World Bank are headquartered? Washington DC. We could theorize, given this that there will be a continuance of Fiat currency in that form. Which means there will still be manipulation in favor of the creators.

This article does a great job on explaining the evolution of the above -

(Death of the Dollar: A New World Money - The Daily Reckoning)

2008 really accelerated us along this path starting with Quantitative Easing. This was increased in velocity starting in September 2019. This is the time I believe that it was noticed something was very wrong and was the start of the recession we will be in. The virus didn't cause it - but it certainly looks to have brought the avalanche down.

I'm betting that the SDR, or equivalent will become the new reserve currency, and maybe our (the United States) primary currency. There will probably be a % of the currency backed by actual physical Gold again. This could explain central banks buying physical Gold like crazy the past many years. (Central Banks Buying Gold to Prepare for Economic Shock)

Gold has been valuable for thousands of years - He who owns the gold makes the rules.
 

hellolin

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What does our military have to do with economics? Are we going to declare war on the countries that don't use our currency? Force it down their throats?


Wow you never heard of petrodollar recycling? This has been the way the world is running since we abandoned the gold standard. To answer your question, yes! Don't believe me? Ask Saddam how did that one go, trying to sell his petros using Euro.
 
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valuecreator

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I am curious to see all these debates of inflation/deflation.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

I submit that this is a Hyper-Inflationary Depression.

What they've been doing in the last 10 years in unheard of...

It's the same with what coming up. Inflation AND Deflation at the same time.
 

Rabby

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I am curious to see all these debates of inflation/deflation.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

I submit that this is a Hyper-Inflationary Depression.

What they've been doing in the last 10 years in unheard of...

It's the same with what coming up. Inflation AND Deflation at the same time.

With... the same currency? So the value of currency stays the same compared to goods and services? Or does one currency inflate and others deflate, or something?
 

Mattie

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I'm a little worried about holding masses of cash right now. It's a good time to have assets in resilient business operations (especially relocatable ones), and/or perhaps to be a net debtor (since presumably you'd be paying back with cheaper money than you borrowed).

I listened to an enlightened representative on the radio earlier, vomiting her brilliant economic theory (it began with a rancid wet burp of Karl Marx).

HER idea was that we need to inject lots and lots of cash into the economy. But absolutely not into successful people's hands... they would waste it by "just sitting on it." No, she asserts, we need to give money to people who will "spend it all right away." Because somehow spending money on crap and not producing anything will save us all, obviously.

Where does the cash come from? We take it away from people. Why do we take it away from people? So we can give it to people? Why do we give it to people? For votes. #fml

So, that's an elected official, with direct inputs into the direction of our economy. If people like that gain full control... start saving money so that you can burn it for fuel in the winter. That's all it will be good for.
Why i don't think they'll be sitting on it. I hear people talking about wasting their money and having a good time online. Oh, they're so excited to go spend it .
 
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lewj24

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Short term, inflation, devaluation and downgrade of the USD isn't much of a risk, but long-term, things could get ugly If the Fed doesn't have the fortitude to sell off assets before the next expansion. And THAT'S when the power of the US dollar will see risks.

This is the thing right here. The Fed couldn't sell of their assets after 2008. I can't imagine them being able to do it now.

I also want to clarify something that I believe is causing the most confusion when it comes to inflation.
Google says the current definition of inflation is:

Inflation:
  1. 2.
    ECONOMICS
    a general increase in prices and fall in the purchasing value of money.
    "policies aimed at controlling inflation"
This definition is what's confusing everyone. People think inflation is higher prices. This is wrong. If you sell widgets for $10 and then decide you want to sell them for $20 that is not inflation. That's just you raising your price. And lowering your price isn't deflation.

Webster's Third New International Dictionary published in 1961 defined inflation as:
An increase in the volume of money and credit relative to available goods resulting in a substantial and continuing rise in the general price level.
Here's an interesting article where I pulled that from.

When you use the old definition of inflation everything becomes crystal clear. The gov't printing money IS inflation. Inflation CAUSES higher prices.

We currently are having massive inflation. Be prepared for higher prices.
 

hellolin

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Middle class Americans with W-2 income better brace yourself for huge tax increases.


I work in a quasi-government organization, you guys have no idea how many pork is coming down the pipe from our "small government" republicans right now, holy shit sometimes I wonder if I never left my socialist former country at all.

It's either tax increases or giant national debt increases, pick your poison. There is very little talk about growing our way out of this mess, no inspiration whatsoever.
 
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tpuffer

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I work in a quasi-government organization, you guys have no idea how many pork is coming down the pipe from our "small government" republicans right now, holy shit sometimes I wonder if I never left my socialist former country at all.

It's either tax increases or giant national debt increases, pick your poison. There is very little talk about growing our way out of this mess, no inspiration whatsoever.

Let's repeat Weimar Germany, the Roman Empire, or any other time fiat currency has failed - print into oblivion.
 

hellolin

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Let's repeat Weimar Germany, the Roman Empire, or any other time fiat currency has failed - print into oblivion.


My opinion with that is that the US fiat is still backed by the might power of our military...hence why the SEVNAV was so pissed off when the skipper of an aircraft carrier told the world they were not mission capable, all while the FED was printing trillions paper fiat into the market.

We were in Wiemar Germany mode ever since 2008, the blogger Rod Dreher explicitly talked about this in his blog.
 

tpuffer

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My opinion with that is that the US fiat is still backed by the might power of our military...hence why the SEVNAV was so pissed off when the skipper of an aircraft carrier told the world they were not mission capable, all while the FED was printing trillions paper fiat into the market.

We were in Wiemar Germany mode ever since 2008, the blogger Rod Dreher explicitly talked about this in his blog.

I'll have to read that blog!

We have military bases in what, about 2/3 of all the countries in the world?

It's interesting to think about 2008 still. By them not allowing the market to fully shakeout and continue lower it has created something that is looking like it could end up worse than what that would have yielded.

Quantitative easing = print tons of paper currency and create tons of digital currency.
 
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hellolin

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I'll have to read that blog!

We have military bases in what, about 2/3 of all the countries in the world?

It's interesting to think about 2008 still. By them not allowing the market to fully shakeout and continue lower it has created something that is looking like it could end up worse than what that would have yielded.

Quantitative easing = print tons of paper currency and create tons of digital currency.


I think Trump actually did try to shrink the government and surrounded industries that was bloated by the 08 crisis, but as soon as he started to touch them, he found out the legions of people that was already employed by them are calling him Hitler on it. So the discussion dies as soon as he touches them. Look at the public now criticizes him for defending the pandemic program...The people in the US do not want a small government, period. The vast majority of people like how the government is taking care of them right now, even though it is shitty.
 

valuecreator

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The latest update is that, from now, on the Treasury will skip putting Bonds on the markets to finance the gov and will just pay for everything straight out of the "printing press". This is a "temporary" measure... ok, boomer!
 

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