Should I learn copywriting?

[juanalou]

Copywriting is writing entertaining words to influence someone to make a decision.

Brain surgery is all about precision, facts, and procedures.

Bro, you're an insult to the profession and an amateur LMAO.

 

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[kebman]

Somebody said "you can always outsource your coding" but.... You can always outsource your copywriting xD In fact that's how my friend made a living for years. He'd juggle copywriters left and write to make a buck. It really just depends on what you'd like to have the most control over. With that said, I've tried my hand at copywriting, and tbh it's not really worth it compared to what you can earn as a freelance programmer or consultant, unless you start a copywriting firm. But then you have to be technical either way, and know the silos and not least the people, at least if you want those big contracts.

 

[Kaan Gullu]

Somebody said "you can always outsource your coding" but.... You can always outsource your copywriting xD In fact that's how my friend made a living for years. He'd juggle copywriters left and write to make a buck. It really just depends on what you'd like to have the most control over. With that said, I've tried my hand at copywriting, and tbh it's not really worth it compared to what you can earn as a freelance programmer or consultant, unless you start a copywriting firm. But then you have to be technical either way, and know the silos and not least the people, at least if you want those big contracts.

How was your experience with copywriting could you expand further on that?

 

[Ed Schimmel]

There is one important benefit for learning to code above writing copy. When you master coding you can write a system that earns money for you, like a SaaS product. Once the product is ready, you won't need to spend a lot of time on it anymore. It is earning money for you, just as MJ describes in his books. Writing copy is limited to the number of hours that you can work on it.

But as you are 17 years old and more looking for a side hustle, this probably not really applicable. In your case, I would choose copy-writing as it seems it gives you more joy.

 

[bracknelson]

If you're already good at writing entertaining shit then just go for it. You don't need to learn anything. Just start applying for copywriting gigs.

Most copywriters I've seen so far would be better off calling themselves "copypasters" because they all seem to regurgitate the same crap they read from X famous copywriting book or course. I know zero famous copywriters and took zero courses and I'm doing pretty good. I did, however, have a lot of business knowledge from my past successes and failures, and seeing as you're 17, I doubt you could say the same. Nevertheless, getting your hands dirty is the way to go.

I like your point "if you're good at writing then go for it". and yeah if you have an interest in writing then start with copywriting.

 

[Ed Schimmel]

This is not entirely true, but I guess the flipside is only limited to a top% of copywriters. You can create banger offers that become the control for some product or business and negotiate royalties based on gross sales or other forms of revenue-sharing.

A-list copywriters pretty much all have a portfolio of offers that generate continuous passive income (I've had a couple sales letters that held on for a few months) which can turn a 4 figure project into a 6 figure project with the same amount of hourly investment. I'd say about 10-15% of offers can fit that bill if you're adequately skilled.

With 20-30h investment per offer, if you do at least one per month, you can exceed $1k/hr average through royalties within a year or two. And once you've proven that and accrued some cashola, you can create your own products and sell those to get 80% profit margins instead of 3% royalties. In perpetuity and using other people's time/money.

You also get to build a ton of other skills on this journey that you can use to build a proper info-based business or amplify other businesses you can buy into.

I'd say the copywriting path is way more fastlane than software development, because the skills you need are tangential and complementary. With software you have to build multiple pillars of ability so to say in order to truly go fastlane, in my opinion. And I say that having started with a programming/engineering background and trying to build SaaS solutions 9 years ago or something. Copywriting is a lot more reliable, but takes longer to go passive and you can't really delegate the vertical as easily/cheaply.

Going passive right off the bat without the skills to build a solid team and manage an enterprise is quite tricky. I've failed multiple times at it. Maybe it's because I went way too hard on the Lean approach hm.

I hadn't thought about the possibility to write and sell 'standard' letters. That indeed changes things. Making and selling a SaaS product is indeed not easy. I am working on one for a few years now and have to do the marketing, which I realize will be a lot more difficult for me.

 

[Ed Schimmel]

Does this product sell itself?

Unfortunately not. But copy-writing skills don't sell themselves either.

There is always work involved, but less, once a SaaS product is running. I didn't take into account the possibility to write and sell standard copy/letters that is prepared beforehand, as Speed112 mentioned. That might change things in favor of copy-writing.

 

[kebman]

Thanks for the detailed response. I'm basically asking because I'm juggling what skill to commit myself to. I DO NOT intend to make copywriting or programming my career but just use it as a way to gain side income and now that I think about it I guess build up my network as well. I'm 17 and have been learning coding for just under a year and a half but I started to question it because i don't truly have a passion for it and because to be deeply honest I don't know if I want to step up to that next level to start earning actual decent income but I'm not fully sure on that feeling yet. So basically here's a rundown, I've been learning frontend for just under a year and a half and am starting to doubt it, Copywriting seems to me to match my traits and skills and something I could do pretty well in. Someone also recommended backend development to me but I haven't looked into that yet.

If you hate progging then copywriting might do you good, especially if you step up your game and start to juggle. But why stop there, when you can also learn how to shoot video and record good audio. It's the natural extension of copywriting. See it all starts with writing a good script, but the way to really get out to the masses is through video and audio. But you have to keep up the pace, and mass produce the output. For that you need more people. And bigger contracts. I think you can do this!
Now let's take this one step further. Can you get access to GPT3? Why write articles, when you can have AI do it for you? Just clean it up and give it a human eyeball before you send the bill.

 

[kebman]

This is not entirely true, but I guess the flipside is only limited to a top% of copywriters. You can create banger offers that become the control for some product or business and negotiate royalties based on gross sales or other forms of revenue-sharing.

A-list copywriters pretty much all have a portfolio of offers that generate continuous passive income (I've had a couple sales letters that held on for a few months) which can turn a 4 figure project into a 6 figure project with the same amount of hourly investment. I'd say about 10-15% of offers can fit that bill if you're adequately skilled.

With 20-30h investment per offer, if you do at least one per month, you can exceed $1k/hr average through royalties within a year or two. And once you've proven that and accrued some cashola, you can create your own products and sell those to get 80% profit margins instead of 3% royalties. In perpetuity and using other people's time/money.

You also get to build a ton of other skills on this journey that you can use to build a proper info-based business or amplify other businesses you can buy into.

I'd say the copywriting path is way more fastlane than software development, because the skills you need are tangential and complementary. With software you have to build multiple pillars of ability so to say in order to truly go fastlane, in my opinion. And I say that having started with a programming/engineering background and trying to build SaaS solutions 9 years ago or something. Copywriting is a lot more reliable, but takes longer to go passive and you can't really delegate the vertical as easily/cheaply.

Going passive right off the bat without the skills to build a solid team and manage an enterprise is quite tricky. I've failed multiple times at it. Maybe it's because I went way too hard on the Lean approach hm.

IMHO going passive a.k.a. "juggling" within copywriting is not passive. It's anything but. You have to constantly look for more writers. Then you have to make sure they're good enough by making them send you tests. Then you actually have to read those tests. Then you have to edit them and send them feedback to improve them, etc, etc, etc. It was this chore that burnt out my buddy. But I saw something in it myself. I saw the possibility of starting my own company, with a team of vetted and skilled copywriters. So I encouraged him to do it, while I was busy with other things. But he didn't want to. And I didn't want to step on his toes, also I was busy with other things. I know it's kind of an excuse, but that's how it was. If he continued, and I had the balls, I'd have asked to take over his portfolio of writers, and gone off myself, but it's too late now. Anyhoo, the writers you get in, even if they quit on you, you've still made a contact. That contact goes into your portfolio of vetted writers. This is the starting point of a good juggle, that you can then take into your own company. Then the most difficult part is finding an administrator who both knows administrating, who wants to do it cheaply (because he doesn't know better - sorry it's the truth), and who also knows editing and some HR, so you can go completely passive. Even if you get there, you'll still have to keep tabs on things, and create a system that keeps things in check and pays for itself. And you're still responsible for getting new contracts. I doubt you could find someone willing to do that for you, or cheaply. Just a few notes on "going passive" with copywriting. Break a pen!

 

[st.julian]

Hey guys,

I'm 17 and have been learning coding for just over a year now (see my first post) but recently came across copywriting that I think I'd be far better off learning and dedicating my time to to ultimately use as a profitable skill. As far as I understand, copywriting is essentially writing out text in a way that sells or advertises well. I think I'd be better suited for this as writing in a verbose tone has always been a pretty great talent of mine. I excel in these types of subjects at school. Should I build on this talent and dedicate myself to getting skilled in copywriting? Thank you for any responses or comments.

Late to the conversation…you’re 17, try anything that interests you. You won’t know until you try. The wisdom that says bc you’ve been coding for a year, don’t jump into something different…why not? Good luck and keep going.

 

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[st.julian]

This is true, without sales there is no business. At the same time, I think the skill of generating awareness at scale may be even more important. Many products and services these days sell without any “sales” in the traditional sense. Gary Vee, for example, built a $200M company on marketing, not sales. Grant Cardone built his entire “sales training” empire on pure marketing. Joe Rogan, and so on.

To a certain extent, sales is on the way out, as more and more people buy through inbound forms of marketing. They don’t need to be sold, they make the decision themselves.

Respectfully, marketing is NOT how GC built his business. He built his business through sales - knocking on doors and cold calling. 1000% without a doubt. No two ways about that. You and I now both know him today because of marketing. Which he discovered after he already had traction and mastered sales. Speaking of sales, it’s definitely not on the way out.

 

[Speed112]

IMHO going passive a.k.a. "juggling" within copywriting is not passive. It's anything but. You have to constantly look for more writers. Then you have to make sure they're good enough by making them send you tests. Then you actually have to read those tests. Then you have to edit them and send them feedback to improve them, etc, etc, etc. It was this chore that burnt out my buddy. But I saw something in it myself. I saw the possibility of starting my own company, with a team of vetted and skilled copywriters. So I encouraged him to do it, while I was busy with other things. But he didn't want to. And I didn't want to step on his toes, also I was busy with other things. I know it's kind of an excuse, but that's how it was. If he continued, and I had the balls, I'd have asked to take over his portfolio of writers, and gone off myself, but it's too late now. Anyhoo, the writers you get in, even if they quit on you, you've still made a contact. That contact goes into your portfolio of vetted writers. This is the starting point of a good juggle, that you can then take into your own company. Then the most difficult part is finding an administrator who both knows administrating, who wants to do it cheaply (because he doesn't know better - sorry it's the truth), and who also knows editing and some HR, so you can go completely passive. Even if you get there, you'll still have to keep tabs on things, and create a system that keeps things in check and pays for itself. And you're still responsible for getting new contracts. I doubt you could find someone willing to do that for you, or cheaply. Just a few notes on "going passive" with copywriting. Break a pen!

Not sure why you replied to me in regards to juggling, since I didn't talk about that at all. Juggling = being a manager with copywriting experience =/= being a copywriter. I was talking about high quality offers that generate long-term royalties.

Having cash flow while you sleep = passive. Managing a workforce is anything but. Obviously.

Respectfully, marketing is NOT how GC built his business. He built his business through sales - knocking on doors and cold calling. 1000% without a doubt. No two ways about that. You and I now both know him today because of marketing. Which he discovered after he already had traction and mastered sales. Speaking of sales, it’s definitely not on the way out.

Whenever I see GC and Sales next to each other...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVXK74k_FNw

 

[kebman]

I was talking about high quality offers that generate long-term royalties.

Having cash flow while you sleep = passive. Managing a workforce is anything but. Obviously.

Sorry, not a jab at you. Your post merely inspired me.

How easy is it to get those high quality offers? I saw you said something about top-tier copywriter. Is it worthwhile aiming for, say, compared to how "easy" it is to become an above average earning coder? And how do you get those high quality offers? Who do you call?

Also, do you know how well it compares to writing a book and self-publishing it (also relatively passive once you get it out there)? Say, "How To Ace Obscure Test X" or "How To Become X Profession," etc?

I guess I like the not-so-passive route, because once you have a company up and going, if the cashflow allows it, you can hire people to ease off your burden 4HWW-style. But yes, there's also up-front work in starting a company. Potentially a lot of up-front work. OTOH the upside of owning a cash-flowing company is pretty dang good, though. So that's one reason for doing it. IDK the other might be that it just feels good to be the baws xD