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Should I learn copywriting?

MJ DeMarco

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Nuh-uh Tudor. Test results first.

What are you, 12 years old? A fast way to lose credibility is to consistently demonstrate the emotional maturity of teenager. You want a picture of his dick too?

You've been banned from the thread.
 
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I would imagine it's common sense you should have a functional ability to communicate and convince people using written words.

Simply having "understandable" copy is enough to get by if you have any decent business. If there is a decent market, you're advertising decently, you have decent customer service, you have a decent product or service, then you should be okay with decent copy.

You should consider offering "copywriting" as a service if you are an extraordinarily talented communicator. Someone who can argue anything. Someone who can tell a captivating story and have everyone on the edge of their seats listening. Someone who can throw an egg at the teacher and somehow talk their way out of it in the principal's office.

If you're that type of person, offer your talents to the world and use that priceless skill for business purposes.

If that isn't you, or you are more like a kid with Asperger's, then maybe you should do something that is more 'up your alley'.

I keep hearing people talk about 'copywriting' all the time. Somewhere, someone is selling a course and throwing around buzzwords and people are eating it up....

When you think about business, think of it like sports. You can do things because you like them, but if you want to get paid for it, that is a different story. Which things are you good at? Are you good at building things with your hands? Are you good at managing people? Do you pickup computer related things really well? Are you an excellent writer and communicator? If you're at a 3/10 at something you might get it to a 6/10 skill but if you are at a 7/10 in something you can develop it to a 10/10 and really succeed. People are doing stuff because it's "hot" right now and not because they have any advantage or skill they can develop in that area.

Imagine if someone said "Do you think I should become a pro basketball player? It's really hot right now". That's what I hear when people say "should I do X? It's really hot right now". Is it a fit for you or your situation right now is the question.
 

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Should I build on this talent and dedicate myself to getting skilled in copywriting? Thank you
No.
Clearly.
Look at the mess it caused in this thread. :rofl:
 
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Sales always come first and are necessary in every business. You can always outsource coding and don't even need it in every business. Outsourcing copywriting is not so easy.

I'd definitely read at least a couple of classics on copywriting and see how you like it and if you want to learn more.
 

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If you're already good at writing entertaining shit then just go for it. You don't need to learn anything. Just start applying for copywriting gigs.

Most copywriters I've seen so far would be better off calling themselves "copypasters" because they all seem to regurgitate the same crap they read from X famous copywriting book or course. I know zero famous copywriters and took zero courses and I'm doing pretty good. I did, however, have a lot of business knowledge from my past successes and failures, and seeing as you're 17, I doubt you could say the same. Nevertheless, getting your hands dirty is the way to go.
 
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nothingness

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I personally recommend everyone learn copy as it changes your mindset significantly from a consumer to a producer, in all aspects of life. It makes life more calmer, more "zen" because you can see how your desires are manipulated desires and not your real desires. You don't really desire the lamborghini you desire what you think people will think of you driving the lamborghini...or rather what the adverts tell you people will think of you, when often the polar opposite is true and most people will think you're a nob who deserves to be robbed, due to their consumer mindset being influenced by expert copywriters shilling socialism...

Start with the Boron letters. You don't need to read them, just write them out by hand. Doing that causes neuron pathways to grown in the brain and is far more efficient than reading material.

If you want to see how effective copy is on the populace in general, I would refer you to the guy who sold cigarettes to women, and the guy who sold fluoride (a toxic waste byproduct) to the public as a dental aid.

"Torches of Freedom" was a phrase used to encourage women's smoking by exploiting women's aspirations for a better life during the early twentieth century first-wave feminism in the United States. Cigarettes were described as symbols of emancipation and equality with men. The term was first used by psychoanalyst A. A. Brill when describing the natural desire for women to smoke and was used by Edward Bernays to encourage women to smoke in public despite social taboos. Bernays hired women to march while smoking their "torches of freedom" in the Easter Sunday Parade of 31 March 1929,[1] which was a significant moment for fighting social barriers for women smokers.

 

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Copywriting doesn't have to be "verbose" -> usually straight-talking copy tends to outperform verbose copy. Copy that is aimed at getting a result out of people is different than copy aimed at brand-building for gigantic organisations.
Agreed.

6th grade reading level is fine 90% of the time.

Make statements that pack punches.
 

Speed112

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Over here, over there.
I've avoided engaging in this thread despite it being right up my alley, because you know... didn't really want to get associated with the monkeying around. I'm glad that's resolved now.

With that being said, I completely agree with @Johnny boy in that you shouldn't learn something with the expectation of being a professional at it, unless you've already got the aptitudes and predilections to eventually master it.

In my case, I was already a good communicator, writer, and conflict-resolver. I was the guy who argued with the teacher or the principal and got them (and the people behind me) to change their stance. And when I first started working with businesspeople, the easiest way for me to add value to their business was by improving their copy.

Way before I even knew what Copywriting was.

Only a year or so after practicing it professionally did I learn about its true value and potential, started "studying the greats" and skyrocketing my rates.

...and I started by copying out by hand great ads and sales letters. Including some of the Boron Letters.

It's definitely a good way to do it.

It's not "Practice makes perfect" but "PERFECT PRACTICE makes perfect." and emulating works that have already been proven effective, finding out what they have in common and makes them perform, is one way of doing that.

But, most importantly, I would recommend anyone, business owners especially, to study and learn copywriting. Not to master it, but to become aware of the techniques and principles of influence being used all over to control your behavior. You can use them yourself for good, to help more people, but you can also protect yourself from malevolent actors.

It helps you learn sales, marketing, persuasion. It teaches you about many topics you would otherwise be ignorant of, and forces you to research subjects thoroughly and identify both rational truth, and emotional desire.

And, most importantly, it helps you become a better communicator - to build better relationships, develop your emotional intelligence, and otherwise grow into a better person.

They don't teach you this stuff in school. Because it gives you awareness and power.

So you will have to teach yourself.

And if you discover that this is something you can perform well. If you enjoy it and can use it to help others...

Then you may dedicate yourself to it and turn it into a very lucrative activity.

Hope you learn a ton!
 

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Sales always come first and are necessary in every business. You can always outsource coding and don't even need it in every business. Outsourcing copywriting is not so easy.
This is true, without sales there is no business. At the same time, I think the skill of generating awareness at scale may be even more important. Many products and services these days sell without any “sales” in the traditional sense. Gary Vee, for example, built a $200M company on marketing, not sales. Grant Cardone built his entire “sales training” empire on pure marketing. Joe Rogan, and so on.

To a certain extent, sales is on the way out, as more and more people buy through inbound forms of marketing. They don’t need to be sold, they make the decision themselves.
 

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I had no idea who Gary Halbert was before opening this letter a few minutes ago to read a few paragraphs... And I found it pretty boring right from the start.
Well, just a guy who used to make millions in a single month... I guess being an ignoramus must be a virtue nowadays.

Gary Halbert is considered by many to be the best copywriter of all time.

Just because you can get clients, and write copy for them, some of which does well, doesn't mean you're great. Believe me, you're VERY far from a pro if that's your attitude. It's not hard to be average, all you have to do is not be a retard honestly.

You make $10K/mo writing copy... so what? That's still pennies...

But the whole point here is that it's not about the copy. Copy does shit. It's about what you're selling, and how (positioning). That's what Gary means by the BIG IDEA. Most "copywriters" these days have NO IDEA about positioning. NONE. ZERO.

Because they're charging their dumb clients, who have no idea what copywriting even is, just for writing words to sell an offer that's GIVEN to them by the client. None of the greats did that. They told the client what the offer should be... they changed the offer, they changed the positioning. Most copywriters these days do none of that.

Oh, here's a dildo. Write some copy for me to sell it.

Urghhh it uses RotateX technology to vibrate giving you the best orgasms, and ummm it's big and purple, and yummy, you almost want to lick it, and just in case you do, it tastes like strawberry.

Jeez Louise...

Here you go boss.

:D love the $10K

*facepalm* (and that dildo sells, most often, NOT because of the copy, but IN SPITE of it...)
 

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Well, just a guy who used to make millions in a single month... I guess being an ignoramus must be a virtue nowadays.

Gary Halbert is considered by many to be the best copywriter of all time.

Just because you can get clients, and write copy for them, some of which does well, doesn't mean you're great. Believe me, you're VERY far from a pro if that's your attitude. It's not hard to be average, all you have to do is not be a retard honestly.

You make $10K/mo writing copy... so what? That's still pennies...

But the whole point here is that it's not about the copy. Copy does shit. It's about what you're selling, and how (positioning). That's what Gary means by the BIG IDEA. Most "copywriters" these days have NO IDEA about positioning. NONE. ZERO.

Because they're charging their dumb clients, who have no idea what copywriting even is, just for writing words to sell an offer that's GIVEN to them by the client. None of the greats did that. They told the client what the offer should be... they changed the offer, they changed the positioning. Most copywriters these days do none of that.

Oh, here's a dildo. Write some copy for me to sell it.

Urghhh it uses RotateX technology to vibrate giving you the best orgasms, and ummm it's big and purple, and yummy, you almost want to lick it, and just in case you do, it tastes like strawberry.

Jeez Louise...

Here you go boss.

:D love the $10K

*facepalm* (and that dildo sells, most often, NOT because of the copy, but IN SPITE of it...)

Lol, calm down nerd. You sound like I F*cked your wife or something.

I don't care how much money he made. All I said was that I found it boring.

You mad?
 
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Simon Angel

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I personally recommend everyone learn copy as it changes your mindset significantly from a consumer to a producer, in all aspects of life. It makes life more calmer, more "zen" because you can see how your desires are manipulated desires and not your real desires. You don't really desire the lamborghini you desire what you think people will think of you driving the lamborghini...or rather what the adverts tell you people will think of you, when often the polar opposite is true and most people will think you're a nob who deserves to be robbed, due to their consumer mindset being influenced by expert copywriters shilling socialism...

Start with the Boron letters. You don't need to read them, just write them out by hand. Doing that causes neuron pathways to grown in the brain and is far more efficient than reading material.

If you want to see how effective copy is on the populace in general, I would refer you to the guy who sold cigarettes to women, and the guy who sold fluoride (a toxic waste byproduct) to the public as a dental aid.




You sold me on reading The Boron Letters.

It's funny how simply spreading knowledge in an articulate and fairly objective way did more to convince me than a sexually-deprived, authority-kneeling nerd throwing a temper tantrum. Thanks.
 
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MTF

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And I dare say that this is also the reason why Halbert was a feast and famine kinda guy... he was always broke because he never really built brand, and had to start from 0 with a new promo, even though he had promos that made him $1M/month.
If you make $1M a month and you go broke, it's not because you don't have a brand. It's because you have terrible money management skills (or don't have them at all).

In his time, saving the income from only one such big promo would set him up for life.
 

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Ultimately, OP - you should be asking yourself a strategic question. Don’t focus on yes/no; expand your vision. It’s not just about copy writing (or which I do for my own business while also paying 6 figures to my marketing company!). It’s about choosing what’s best for you.

Here is an example of a strategic question.

If you’re saying Yes to this,
what are you saying No to?
 

Andy Black

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Rule number one of copywriting, marketing, and sales?

Feed a starving crowd.

If you write some copy and no-one sees it then did you even write copy?


My advice for people who want to help people with copywriting (note I didn’t say “learn” copywriting):

Run paid search campaigns on Google.

Get the right people to the right offer at the right time.

Focus on keywords that indicate searchers are in the starving crowd.

Write relevant, eye catching, and compelling ads to appeal to the starving crowd.

Create a simple landing page that directs the starving crowd to take an action they want to take.

Tada!

You’re writing copy, with the aim of helping people *and* getting profitable (since you’re spending money each day).

More importantly, you're creating copy where it will be seen and where you’ll get real-time market feedback - which you need so you can iterate and improve.

Plus you’re limited to very few characters with Google Ads - which stops you writing too much.



Or you could have a goal to “learn” copywriting and become a student/consumer instead. There’s many books to study. Many courses to take. Maybe even certifications to pick up.

Just be aware “the market doesn’t pay for input” (Blaise Brosnan)


Get your goal right:
 
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Sure, but only if you feel the programming is not suitable for you. If you are able to learn both, go ahead. Usually a combination of two great skills open more opportunities than being superb in a single skill.
 

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I'm 17 and have been learning coding for just over a year now (see my first post) but recently came across copywriting that I think I'd be far better off learning and dedicating my time to to ultimately use as a profitable skill.
Watch out for shiny object syndrome.

Coding is a great skill. Copywriting can also be that.

But you don't need to be great at everything.

Pick one thing and stick to it.

If you've already been coding for one year, I say don't switch now.
 
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Hey guys,

I'm 17 and have been learning coding for just over a year now (see my first post) but recently came across copywriting that I think I'd be far better off learning and dedicating my time to to ultimately use as a profitable skill. As far as I understand, copywriting is essentially writing out text in a way that sells or advertises well. I think I'd be better suited for this as writing in a verbose tone has always been a pretty great talent of mine. I excel in these types of subjects at school. Should I build on this talent and dedicate myself to getting skilled in copywriting? Thank you for any responses or comments.
Here's an interesting letter from Gary Halbert that made me think about you @kgullu - what do you think?
 
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Here’s a challenge. I have a project for you. Write copy for it, and I will pay you $10K if you’re successful but I’m sharing your results publically. Interested? ;)

lol

Screenshot_70.jpgScreenshot_72.jpgScreenshot_71.jpg

$456,993.00 in 2 months for a business that was making zero with email marketing even though they were running campaigns. Although faced with skepticism, I've completely transformed their brand image.

We also have data that MOST of the customers who open our emails actually end up buying from the physical stores my client has. So the actual untracked sales are at least double.

This is from just ONE of my clients and only email marketing.

In just 1 year as a copywriter, I've written copy for every advertising medium you can think of, including TV.

And I'm barely even trying. I'm way more focused on enjoying life and competing in my hobby while doing all of this on the side.

If I made copywriting my #1 goal in life, you can bet your receding hairline I'd become the best there ever was. I've done plenty of "impossible" things in my life and this one is not even on that scale. And I'd still do it without having read any of the masters you look up to. But that's not something I want at the moment.

And in regards to helping you with your con artist "projects" - only in your dreams, son.
 

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If you make $1M a month and you go broke, it's not because you don't have a brand. It's because you have terrible money management skills (or don't have them at all).
That’s true. At the same time, look at someone like Bill Gates. Even if he HAD terrible money management skills 20 years ago, he’d still be raking in the dough due to the brand/asset he’s built (short of actually selling that brand/asset and then spending that money ofc)

Money management becomes more important if you don’t have an engine that consistently brings in the cash for you. In my opinion, building a real business is such an engine. I don’t see a successful sales letter, sales funnel, or promotion to be such a business, regardless of how successful it is. That will work for some time, and then stop working. Because ultimately it depends upon your genius to make it work, finding new product to sell and so on.

Imo, a CENTS based BUSINESS is always going to be a more reliable cash engine.
 

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As a sponsor of this forum, I've elected to delete my posts here as they derail the thread, and are probably upsetting for the OP.

Copywriting doesn't have to be "verbose" -> usually straight-talking copy tends to outperform verbose copy. Copy that is aimed at getting a result out of people is different than copy aimed at brand-building for gigantic organisations.

Copy or coding, either is a high-value skill though. However, please don't be deceived, in that neither coding nor copy are a business, and neither are enough to run a profitable business. Depending upon who you work with writing copy, you'll only do a small part of what makes a business successful. Which is why I encouraged you to read the copy greats, like Halbert. You'll get to understand much more about what makes for a strong business and how to create success in a predictable fashion (or as close to it as possible).

Is sales what comes first for a business? Maybe, but I do think copywriters tend to think of sales as a one-off event rather than a multiple-touch process. For most businesses, it takes multiple touches to convert a person into a paying customer. Which means that there is no trick to the sale... just multiple contacts and persistence. Whereas copywriters tend to think in terms of sales letters... mail this text, and get buyers.
Yeah I'm definitely not going to aim to make copywriting my cents based business goal I merely want to use it as a profitable skill as I know that can help on your fastlane journey
 
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That’s true. At the same time, look at someone like Bill Gates. Even if he HAD terrible money management skills 20 years ago, he’d still be raking in the dough due to the brand/asset he’s built (short of actually selling that brand/asset and then spending that money ofc)

Money management becomes more important if you don’t have an engine that consistently brings in the cash for you. In my opinion, building a real business is such an engine. I don’t see a successful sales letter, sales funnel, or promotion to be such a business, regardless of how successful it is. That will work for some time, and then stop working. Because ultimately it depends upon your genius to make it work, finding new product to sell and so on.

Imo, a CENTS based BUSINESS is always going to be a more reliable cash engine.

That's a good point and a good lesson for @kgullu as well. By all means learn copywriting, make money with your sales letters, etc. but ultimately remember that you need to build an ASSET.

IMO it doesn't necessarily have to be a brand (though a productive business with great reputation is definitely one of the strongest assets). If Halbert invested his earnings into real estate (to rent it and have consistent cashflow) he would have been fine financially as well.
 

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As I said, if you think you’re a pro without having studied the masters, you’re wrong buddy. To prove it to yourself, just try creating and selling your own product from scratch. Delusions will evaporate very soon, I promise.

Why would I need to create my own product when I'm a copywriter?

And I never implied I'm a pro or gave myself any of the labels you get off to. I just don't give a F*ck about the "master" copywriters you seem to worship. Apparently, this made me a blasphemous boogeyman in your eyes.

My clients are making money. I'm making money. Hell, numerous customers of my clients have posted screenshots on social media of the emails they got from me saying that they normally don't care for promo emails but can't wait to receive the next one and that they'd never seen anything like them before.

And yet, you're sitting here telling me that it's impossible that I'm a great copywriter because I'm not a nerd like you.

A nerd who's probably read 20+ books on copywriting, emulated all of the copy styles from the "masters", and yet is giving away all of his courses for "100% FREE" in the forum in a desperate attempt to build up his email list.

I'm so glad I'm not an insecure con man like you, lol.
 

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Also, remember that customers are not a good judge for copy. Most of them know even less than you about it. And customers even less than that. Who cares if they enjoy it? Only question is if they’re pulling out their wallets and what’s making them pull out their wallets.

Interesting coming from the guy who said just a little while ago that "Sales are overrated. Anyone can help a business make more sales. What's important is building up the brand name with quality content."

It seems you just like to argue for the sake of arguing even if that means contradicting yourself.

And just for the record, all of my clients are making more money since I began working with them. And we have plenty of ways to track and attribute my contribution to that upward trend.

Some went from bleeding money and doubting their prospects to earning a profit and loving me for making it possible for them to take their wives on vacation, effectively saving their marriage.

I'm really disappointed I wasted my time replying to you, you sad little man.
 

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As a sponsor of this forum, I've elected to delete my posts here as they derail the thread, and are probably upsetting for the OP.
Hey guys,

I'm 17 and have been learning coding for just over a year now (see my first post) but recently came across copywriting that I think I'd be far better off learning and dedicating my time to to ultimately use as a profitable skill. As far as I understand, copywriting is essentially writing out text in a way that sells or advertises well. I think I'd be better suited for this as writing in a verbose tone has always been a pretty great talent of mine. I excel in these types of subjects at school. Should I build on this talent and dedicate myself to getting skilled in copywriting? Thank you for any responses or comments.
Copywriting doesn't have to be "verbose" -> usually straight-talking copy tends to outperform verbose copy. Copy that is aimed at getting a result out of people is different than copy aimed at brand-building for gigantic organisations.

Copy or coding, either is a high-value skill though. However, please don't be deceived, in that neither coding nor copy are a business, and neither are enough to run a profitable business. Depending upon who you work with writing copy, you'll only do a small part of what makes a business successful. Which is why I encouraged you to read the copy greats, like Halbert. You'll get to understand much more about what makes for a strong business and how to create success in a predictable fashion (or as close to it as possible).

Is sales what comes first for a business? Maybe, but I do think copywriters tend to think of sales as a one-off event rather than a multiple-touch process. For most businesses, it takes multiple touches to convert a person into a paying customer. Which means that there is no trick to the sale... just multiple contacts and persistence. Whereas copywriters tend to think in terms of sales letters... mail this text, and get buyers.
 
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Mathuin

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Well that was an interesting read.

I'm reading Cashvertising whilst I'm at work and I feel I've learned a good bit so far.
 

FlorianR

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Hey guys,

I'm 17 and have been learning coding for just over a year now (see my first post) but recently came across copywriting that I think I'd be far better off learning and dedicating my time to to ultimately use as a profitable skill. As far as I understand, copywriting is essentially writing out text in a way that sells or advertises well. I think I'd be better suited for this as writing in a verbose tone has always been a pretty great talent of mine. I excel in these types of subjects at school. Should I build on this talent and dedicate myself to getting skilled in copywriting? Thank you for any responses or comments.

Both coding and copywriting are high income skills that can make you a lot of money.

Whatever you decide, stay 100% commited and focused on one of them for at least 2 years. Avoid shiny object syndrome, go deep and become a master in one area
 

Speed112

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Over here, over there.
Writing copy is limited to the number of hours that you can work on it.

This is not entirely true, but I guess the flipside is only limited to a top% of copywriters. You can create banger offers that become the control for some product or business and negotiate royalties based on gross sales or other forms of revenue-sharing.

A-list copywriters pretty much all have a portfolio of offers that generate continuous passive income (I've had a couple sales letters that held on for a few months) which can turn a 4 figure project into a 6 figure project with the same amount of hourly investment. I'd say about 10-15% of offers can fit that bill if you're adequately skilled.

With 20-30h investment per offer, if you do at least one per month, you can exceed $1k/hr average through royalties within a year or two. And once you've proven that and accrued some cashola, you can create your own products and sell those to get 80% profit margins instead of 3% royalties. In perpetuity and using other people's time/money.

You also get to build a ton of other skills on this journey that you can use to build a proper info-based business or amplify other businesses you can buy into.

I'd say the copywriting path is way more fastlane than software development, because the skills you need are tangential and complementary. With software you have to build multiple pillars of ability so to say in order to truly go fastlane, in my opinion. And I say that having started with a programming/engineering background and trying to build SaaS solutions 9 years ago or something. Copywriting is a lot more reliable, but takes longer to go passive and you can't really delegate the vertical as easily/cheaply.

Going passive right off the bat without the skills to build a solid team and manage an enterprise is quite tricky. I've failed multiple times at it. Maybe it's because I went way too hard on the Lean approach hm.
 

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