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Reality catches up. (Rant about healthcare system)

daivey

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Ain't worth arguing with people that think fundamentally different than you

using the word "argument" is giving credit to the people who's only posts in this thread are you should die if you can't afford it cause it's your responsibility.

that's not an argument. that's just being a donkey.
 
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SteveO

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using the word "argument" is giving credit to the people who's only posts in this thread are you should die if you can't afford it cause it's your responsibility.

that's not an argument. that's just being a donkey.
That's me. Simple jackass. Don't stand behind me...
 

SteveO

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@daivey
I have been a bit of an a**hole for much of my life. Been trying to change that. I'm sorry for the "uncalled for" remark.
 

Kevin88660

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Came across this and it reminded me of the reality and why I’m on this journey. It showed me why not to give in to the dogma.
View attachment 39049
The system is designed to be expensive because every special interest wants their turf protected.

In my country the government recognized certifications from more countries to practice medicine in Singapore.

So we have foreign doctors here to drive the cost lower.

Locals who spent years studying medicine might not like it. As a result doctor’s pay/hour worked didn’t change much for the past ten years.

It is all about political will to fix the special interest. I think in U.S. it is generally harder as power is much more decentralized and dispersed.
 
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Inimitable

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What really bothers me is that my family has to pay $25 for a primary care visit and $50 to see a specialist. My son has some complex medical issues, so he needs quite a lot of medical care - including physical therapy sessions, which we're capped at 35 per year even though he requires 2x per week.

Meanwhile, people I know are getting totally free healthcare with $3 copays for primary care, a little more for specialists, and free PT. They purposely have more kids and don't get married to qualify. And my taxpayer dollars are paying for that, too.
 

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using the word "argument" is giving credit to the people who's only posts in this thread are you should die if you can't afford it cause it's your responsibility.

that's not an argument. that's just being a donkey.
If it’s not my responsibility to take care of myself, who’s is it?
 

SteveO

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Do we want freedom or do we want to be taken care of?
 

Kak

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I think that you're missing the forest from the trees with an overly generalized statement like that.
I think you’re a little hot and heavy with emotional nonsense. You’re barking at everyone like a total dick.

Answer the question… Who’s responsibility is your care? Mine? Everyone in America? Or yours?

You saw my first post. You liked my post. I think we might as well just be single payer with all the taxes we have and the BS we have already done. Of course, intelligent people will supplement with private insurance and ironically a lot of care would become more privatized.

That doesn’t make that the best answer to this question. Not by a long shot. I’m resigning that it might be the only answer we have in Amerizuela to write it off as a lost cause.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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Yes the US Healthcare system is fraught with problems.

In fact, I just had an ER room visit and the insurance and doctor bills all came to $6,200. I was there for 3 hours. The insurance company wrote-down most of it and billed me for $2G.

However, something is odd about the statement (from the OP about going bankrupt), namely, all health insurance plans now have an out of pocket max, which usually isn't that much after deductibles are hit. This is usually like 20 or 30K. Sure, spending an extra $30k a year is a big financial hit for most people.

Sounds like this poor guy didn't have much savings to begin with -- and if your savings amount to 30 or 60K., then yea, things can go south fast.

I could understand by Slowlane metrics that you spent 30k in months, and it took you 8 years to save it. Hell that would frustrate me, but it is more indicative that you adopted the “wrong system” within a flawed system. In other words, what would one expect as a rat in the rat race? You're playing by the system's default rules which means there are mostly losers, and few winners.

But generally speaking, yea, the healthcare system is really screwed up, between the high deductibles and the excessive cost. The entire slate needs to be wiped clean, which is impossible due to cronyism with health care providers and insurance companies.

In America, not having health insurance is the biggest threat to monetary wealth, even wealth in the millions. That would disappear in a matter of weeks.
 
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Kak

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I’m on a health share, not a traditional insurance plan. So I have already kind of opted out. Although even this could be cheaper, if of course there was legitimate competition in healthcare driving down the cost. There certainly is competition among health share organizations.

I pay about $400/m for this now that my son is here, but it was like $280/m for just my wife and I.

My wife just had a baby, the entire ordeal from start to finish was about $45-50k. This was at the best hospital in the area and the best rated doctors in town.

My health share plan has an $8,000 per year personal responsibility, beyond that they cover everything except inconsequential copays of $50-100.

I think we had less than $9k out of pocket for this entire thing. Not that big of a deal. If it had cost $350k, I’d probably still be out $9 ish.
 

socaldude

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I’ve noticed more and more Canadians and Americans are seeking medical care in Mexico.

This guy should of taken his wife to Mexico. My girlfriend is a Mexican nurse so I hear all kinds of stories.

Remember when you used to go down to the border to go to the dentist LOL.
 

daivey

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I think you’re a little hot and heavy with emotional nonsense. You’re barking at everyone like a total dick.

Answer the question… Who’s responsibility is your care? Mine? Everyone in America? Or yours?

You saw my first post. You liked my post. I think we might as well just be single payer with all the taxes we have and the BS we have already done. Of course, intelligent people will supplement with private insurance and ironically a lot of care would become more privatized.

That doesn’t make that the best answer to this question. Not by a long shot. I’m resigning that it might be the only answer we have in Amerizuela to write it off as a lost cause.
is it not hot and heavy to come into a thread about a guy losing his life savings to save his wife - and claim "bUt, WoRk HaRdEr".?

Seriously, what does that do to move the needle for any argument?- for, or against a universal health care system?

I didn't answer your question because it's not a binary answer. And, I'm sure you could deduce some of the basic rationale from my lengthy post before.

The people promoting pure capitalism, don't live in a pure capitalist system to begin with. The Ayn Rand ideologies that they are espousing don't exist. And even Ayn Rand herself wrote about that - it's crony capitalism, exactly what MJ wrote above....This is what is comical, because we're quoting "individualism vs. collectivism" as somehow it makes you amazing to acknowledge you're an "individualist" on social media (these forums) vs. the collectivism that got you to where you are in the first place.

The problem with asking this question is that it's too broad:
Who’s responsibility is your care? Mine? Everyone in America? Or yours?
Who's responsibility is your care if someone comes and shoot you in the face?
Maybe the doctors should let you die on the street if you don't have insurance?

Why stop there?
Who's responsibility is to to teach your kids? why do we have schools? Why do we have roads? Why should anything be done collectively? We should all be for ourselves!! Why should I pay for a road I don't use on the other side of the country?
Yeah, I'm being rediculous now, but it's when you take the arguments to the extreme (such as 'whos responsbility it is") you start to see the holes.

So you're looking for an answer, but not wanting to look at the complexities of all things that have to do with this. This is why your question is broken to begin with. It's a stacked question that doesn't work. And funny enough, the very author Ayn Rand, even talks about government functions in policing, intellectual property, etc.

Anyway, the answer is, ITS COMPLiCATED. So when people say "work harder" or "do better" or "it's your responsibility", these are just 'hot phrases' to win likes, with no depth.
 
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daivey

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Yes the US Healthcare system is fraught with problems.

In fact, I just had an ER room visit and the insurance and doctor bills all came to $6,200. I was there for 3 hours. The insurance company wrote-down most of it and billed me for $2G.

However, something is odd about the statement (from the OP about going bankrupt), namely, all health insurance plans now have an out of pocket max, which usually isn't that much after deductibles are hit. This is usually like 20 or 30K. Sure, spending an extra $30k a year is a big financial hit for most people.

Sounds like this poor guy didn't have much savings to begin with -- and if your savings amount to 30 or 60K., then yea, things can go south fast.

I could understand by Slowlane metrics that you spent 30k in months, and it took you 8 years to save it. Hell that would frustrate me, but it is more indicative that you adopted the “wrong system” within a flawed system. In other words, what would one expect as a rat in the rat race? You're playing by the system's default rules which means there are mostly losers, and few winners.

But generally speaking, yea, the healthcare system is really screwed up, between the high deductibles and the excessive cost. The entire slate needs to be wiped clean, which is impossible due to cronyism with health care providers and insurance companies.

In America, not having health insurance is the biggest threat to monetary wealth, even wealth in the millions. That would disappear in a matter of weeks.
While I agree overall, it doesn't have to be that way.
And it's not that way in many other countries around the world - in countries that do have universal health care.
E.g. Canada.
The health care system isn't perfect up here, but you're sure as shit not going to go bankrupt or drop $50,000 for an operation. And despite what CNN/FOX news, and other jaded personalities want you to believe - the treatment is quite good.

but i dunno.. i'm ok paying more for junk food, if it means my neighbor gets his heart surgery.. personally.
 

Antifragile

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I’ve noticed more and more Canadians and Americans are seeking medical care in Mexico.

This guy should of taken his wife to Mexico. My girlfriend is a Mexican nurse so I hear all kinds of stories.

Remember when you used to go down to the border to go to the dentist LOL.
Our system in Canada is great for really scary bad stuff and emergencies. But if you have something that’s not urgent, the wait times can be years. Those who have financial means, tend to go for private treatment locally or even other countries. A close friend needed a surgery to repair his shoulder after a mountain bike crash. Wait time in Canada was 2 years, he flew to Germany and got that done same month at a private hospital.
No system is perfect. Having financial means is important even in Canada.
 

daivey

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Our system in Canada is great for really scary bad stuff and emergencies. But if you have something that’s not urgent, the wait times can be years. Those who have financial means, tend to go for private treatment locally or even other countries. A close friend needed a surgery to repair his shoulder after a mountain bike crash. Wait time in Canada was 2 years, he flew to Germany and got that done same month at a private hospital.
No system is perfect. Having financial means is important even in Canada.
is that during covid though?
all surgeries got fuked cause of Covid, so a black swan event gonna screw up a lot of things.
 
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Kak

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Who's responsibility is your care if someone comes and shoot you in the face?
Maybe the doctors should let you die on the street if you don't have insurance?
What incredible hyperbole. This doesn’t happen now and would never happen. They get care and are billed later.

A gunshot victim without insurance is now who we are discussing? A sub segment of a sub segment.

With true capitalism, emergency services would be a highly competitive business. They, like every other business, would set prices LONG in advance of such an event based on what the market would bear considering their competition. The service would be cheap, much cheaper than today, and much cheaper than Bush era policies too. The insurance that buys such service and all other kinds of health related services would likewise be cheaper.

Under such a system there are people that will choose not to be insured. Some because they want to self insure, are healthier than average, and would rather not pay the insurance company profit margins, others will choose not to because they would rather buy tattoos and a new TV.

The only thing I agree with you on this is that it is nonsense that supporting the collectivist system, as it currently stands, somehow makes someone an individualist. I also don’t believe anyone here is making that argument so that point is straw.

So what you’re saying is that it is my (or all of our) responsibility to insure people that are choosing to be uninsured… I disagree. That is tantamount to me (or us) buying their tattoos and TVs.

We have already discussed the fact that care comes first, billing second… So letting him “dIe iN tHe sTrEet” is not happening.

What is in it for me to financially bail out the bills of some random, uninsured, person I’ve never met after they get “sHoT iN tHe fAce?” The reality is, it is unfortunate for them, but it isn’t my problem and shouldn’t be. Do I want to force them to get insurance? No. That’s their decision to make.

Who's responsibility is to to teach your kids?
Mine.
why do we have schools?
To manufacture collectivists, like you, by the thousands. My kids won’t set foot in a public school.

is it not hot and heavy to come into a thread about a guy losing his life savings to save his wife - and claim "bUt, WoRk HaRdEr".?
The funny part, you based your entire crusade on this comment that triggered you…

I’m 99% sure the guy that posted that was making a sarcastic drive-by, as I have known him to come up with left wing drivel more than not. Unless of course he has had a recent change of heart.
 
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Mammoth

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is that during covid though?
all surgeries got fuked cause of Covid, so a black swan event gonna screw up a lot of things.
My mom has been waiting years to get her knees replaced. They told her they want to wait til she's a certain age so that they don't have to do it again. Rationed healthcare, so amazing!
 

Antifragile

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you're assuming that in any other country you would die? lol....so be grateful you didn't die, in america, but are now bankrupt??

but yes.. your only choice in America is make FU money, or yeah, die of tiny tumor that you would have removed for free even in the hospitals in Favellas of Brazil....... literally ANY country in the world can do cancer treatements nowadays and u dont have to be a trillionaire to do it..

but yes, tell me more about individualism

Read your own post there hotshot. And tell me again about stupid and flawed / false generalizations.
 
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Antifragile

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is that during covid though?
all surgeries got fuked cause of Covid, so a black swan event gonna screw up a lot of things.
Nope. Before covid.

I can share more stories just like that. But if you live in Canada, you should already know.
 

Thoelt53

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Somebody paid for it. Ignoring where it came from doesn't make it cheaper. You just can't see it.
Obviously the insurance company paid for it, utilizing my premium and the premiums of their millions of other customers.

I think you missed my point.

No one disagrees that the US healthcare system is broken. I’m saying that it could be worse.

I’m also saying that blaming the system is an external locus of control.
 

Thoelt53

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Keep circle jerking yourself to this non-sense.

You are responsible for your family? Oh ok, so if someone comes up to you and shoots you in the head, is it your fault too cause you didn't take responsibility into your own hand by driving an armored car?/ right??

Oh BuT dAiVeY tHaTs NoT tHe SaMe ThInG.

Actually it is. You getting cancer severe enough that requires intervention which costs 100's of thousands of dollars is LITERALLY just drawing the short stick.. Flipping a coin if you will. SURE some of your life choices may contribute to it.. and sometimes it's just the short stick - genetics. So to casually sit back and say "HuR DuR I'm responsible" is just a cop out non-sense which is being shoved down your throat by FOX News and CNN...

Spare me the Ayn Rand bullshit about collectivism vs. individualism and this pure capitalist ideologue bullshit. You don't live in pure capitalism, so the stupidity you espouse by making these dumb dumb comparisons shows how naïve you are and how much the system has ingrained into your head this non-sense... that somehow you think you're smart and 'enlightened' because 'HuR DuR WoRk HaRdEr" "it's your responsbility"...

you live in a system in which lobbyists and people like PHarma Bro f*ck you over daily and have fuked up the system so bad that you are being manipulated to agree to it... So to sit there and claim that you're this moral superior person cause "I would spend every dollar I have and not complain about" is asinine and bullshit. No, you would complain about it, if it bankrupted you. you wouldn't be skipping around with a shit earing grin on your face, that's for damn sure.
If your wife got cancer and died and you bankrupted yourself, you sure as shit wouldn't be sitting there typing out your keyboard warrior non-sense about individualism vs. collectivism... But it's easy to sit there and do that, when it hasn't hit you..

"We waited only 4 weeks, for a totally non life-threatening surgery and it cost me $500 out of pocket. The cost of the operation is between $65,000-$90,000 TBD."
You're lucky enough that that surgery wasn't something not covered by insurance. Or I'm sure your whole post of 'work harder' would end there.

The point is, that "take responsibility" and "work harder" is true, but, there also has to be some balance. We are no longer living in caves, and spending 99% of time hunting for food.

Lastly, the part that alludes you guys the most, and this will not stick to you cause you're so far down the rabbit hole of this "individualism" non-sense:... and trust me, this is a tough pill to swallow for many of you, so I know a good chunk of you won't get it:

All those cancer treatments, and science experiments that have yielded all these amazing drugs, were PUBLICLY FUNDED.
Oh but how?? Pfizer paid for it!!11
Yes, all this science takes it roots from PUBLICLY funded campaigns. You can trace the origins of all of these medicines back to Wars (R&D), and University research - which is publicly funded.
You sit there and espouse capitalism and individualism and "pay your own way" when, 100% of this stuff was all discovered in the PUBLIC sector or with PUBLIC money.
Yes, the private sector marketed it and sold it to you in a nice convenient package. But the science was developed with PUBLIC money.
(and yes, you can certainly argue that capitalism helped motivate these scientists to develop this stuff on behalf of governments, etc)

anyway, these types of posts on these forums always turns into this weird group of "hard core capitalists" where "dying cause you can't afford treatment" is your fault.

capitalism does work. its a great system. except there has to be a balance. and it's clear that some of you don't understand what balance means. hence your posts "hurr durrrrrrrr responsibility". yeah, sure.
I read maybe 25% of your garbage, nonsense post and couldn’t continue.

Why are you on this forum? You belong on Reddit, crying with the rest of the losers.

Can you change the system? No you can’t.

When you begin to accept that the only person responsible for you is YOU, you’ll begin to understand. We have to work within our means, right? Bitching doesn’t do shit

All your quasi-intellect accusing me of “hurr durr” is a baseless and effortless argument. My point about private insurance was that it’s working for me today. My private insurance that I and millions of other pay into worked for me and my family. Rather than recognize that fact, you’re complaining about the faults within the system that we are all aware of and masquerading as some superior intellectual.

As for my wife getting cancer, God forbid, I would actually die for her if it would save her life. Some things are more important than money. Obviously you don’t have a wife or kids. If you do, you’re just like the guy in OP’a post, an a**hole.
 
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Thoelt53

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strange, you're in this thread labelled "rant"?

for all that individualism, you're on a forum benefiting from collectivism.
on the internet..
developed by public sector...
to benefit all man kind.

go johnny go go, goo go gogo johnny goo
Who is paying for this forum? It didn’t appear out of thin air, paid for by tax dollars.

You’re a loon. Go back to Reddit.
 

Thoelt53

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is it not hot and heavy to come into a thread about a guy losing his life savings to save his wife - and claim "bUt, WoRk HaRdEr".?

Seriously, what does that do to move the needle for any argument?- for, or against a universal health care system?

I didn't answer your question because it's not a binary answer. And, I'm sure you could deduce some of the basic rationale from my lengthy post before.

The people promoting pure capitalism, don't live in a pure capitalist system to begin with. The Ayn Rand ideologies that they are espousing don't exist. And even Ayn Rand herself wrote about that - it's crony capitalism, exactly what MJ wrote above....This is what is comical, because we're quoting "individualism vs. collectivism" as somehow it makes you amazing to acknowledge you're an "individualist" on social media (these forums) vs. the collectivism that got you to where you are in the first place.

The problem with asking this question is that it's too broad:
Who’s responsibility is your care? Mine? Everyone in America? Or yours?
Who's responsibility is your care if someone comes and shoot you in the face?
Maybe the doctors should let you die on the street if you don't have insurance?

Why stop there?
Who's responsibility is to to teach your kids? why do we have schools? Why do we have roads? Why should anything be done collectively? We should all be for ourselves!! Why should I pay for a road I don't use on the other side of the country?
Yeah, I'm being rediculous now, but it's when you take the arguments to the extreme (such as 'whos responsbility it is") you start to see the holes.

So you're looking for an answer, but not wanting to look at the complexities of all things that have to do with this. This is why your question is broken to begin with. It's a stacked question that doesn't work. And funny enough, the very author Ayn Rand, even talks about government functions in policing, intellectual property, etc.

Anyway, the answer is, ITS COMPLiCATED. So when people say "work harder" or "do better" or "it's your responsibility", these are just 'hot phrases' to win likes, with no depth.
Dude the more posts of yours I read the more I am dumbfounded.

Are you 16?

If you “work harder” and amass a wealth of $20M, which is totally possible, what concern is it of yours to pay for a $300,000 operation?

I don’t think you understand locus of control.
 
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Antifragile

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As for my wife getting cancer, God forbid, I would actually die for her if it would save her life. Some things are more important than money. Obviously you don’t have a wife or kids. If you do, you’re just like the guy in OP’a post, an a**hole.

This.

How hard is it to understand this simple message?
 

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Obviously the insurance company paid for it, utilizing my premium and the premiums of their millions of other customers.

I think you missed my point.

No one disagrees that the US healthcare system is broken. I’m saying that it could be worse.

I’m also saying that blaming the system is an external locus of control.
Move to somewhere with lower healthcare cost if that bothers you. That could be an option. I read about young American moving to Australia as they have relatives there.

Another option is to get a job with a good insurance coverage. But I don’t really know how good is the group coverage for employees in U.S.

In Singapore the best private insurance cover is group insurance for employee because they can cover pre-existing conditions.

Also Singapore government has put in a lot of measures to make sure the sector stays price competitive. Hospitals hire doctors from India, nurses from Philippine, and public hospitals could group bargain to drive medical cost low. Mandatory public insurance as well as private insurance insurance premiums are rather affordable for the average.

We also follow the UK laws on litigations unlike U.S. doctors prescribe screening and checks for a 1 percent possibility of a big illness because otherwise they will be sued .

There is also an option to fly to India for treatment which has a very good and affordable private healthcare system for foreigners. I am not sure if anyone has been exploring this option. I know cases where the entire trip, flight plus a shoulder operation plus accomodation cost around 10k usd.

Instead of complaining about being screwed by oligarch monopolies this could a thread itself on affordable healthcare options.
 
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daivey

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What incredible hyperbole. This doesn’t happen now and would never happen. They get care and are billed later.

A gunshot victim without insurance is now who we are discussing? A sub segment of a sub segment.

With true capitalism, emergency services would be a highly competitive business. They, like every other business, would set prices LONG in advance of such an event based on what the market would bear considering their competition. The service would be cheap, much cheaper than today, and much cheaper than Bush era policies too. The insurance that buys such service and all other kinds of health related services would likewise be cheaper.

Under such a system there are people that will choose not to be insured. Some because they want to self insure, are healthier than average, and would rather not pay the insurance company profit margins, others will choose not to because they would rather buy tattoos and a new TV.

The only thing I agree with you on this is that it is nonsense that supporting the collectivist system, as it currently stands, somehow makes someone an individualist. I also don’t believe anyone here is making that argument so that point is straw.

So what you’re saying is that it is my (or all of our) responsibility to insure people that are choosing to be uninsured… I disagree. That is tantamount to me (or us) buying their tattoos and TVs.

We have already discussed the fact that care comes first, billing second… So letting him “dIe iN tHe sTrEet” is not happening.

What is in it for me to financially bail out the bills of some random, uninsured, person I’ve never met after they get “sHoT iN tHe fAce?” The reality is, it is unfortunate for them, but it isn’t my problem and shouldn’t be. Do I want to force them to get insurance? No. That’s their decision to make.


Mine.

To manufacture collectivists, like you, by the thousands. My kids won’t set foot in a public school.


The funny part, you based your entire crusade on this comment that triggered you…

I’m 99% sure the guy that posted that was making a sarcastic drive-by, as I have known him to come up with left wing drivel more than not. Unless of course he has had a recent change of heart.
LOL
"They get care and are billed later."

MURICA!

good post,.

And, like typical USA fashion: "me me me me me me"
"why should I pay for someone else".
"it's not my problem they got shot in the face".

Exactly. Exactly right there is your problem.
"as long as I get mine".
And this is USA vs. rest of the world. Which coincides perfectly with what it's perfectly ok for someone to go bankrupt in the USA due to medical bills. Cause it's not your problem.
United we stand. Divided we fall.

You're not wrong. It's just a different way of thinking that the rest of the developed world doesn't think like. Other than a few groups e.g. people from Canada like AntiFragile, that believe in the USA system.
 
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daivey

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Clearly very difficult.

It’s not limited to this one douchebag, the majority of humans are morons, by design.
Lol, yeah, I know critical thinking is hard for some people, that's why you need to retort with attacks "douchebag and moron"... LoL.

lots of first world economies that have socialized health care there bud. Just cause CNN/FOX news sold you on a broken system, doesn't mean it's the only way.

let us know when you get that $20million of liquid net worth. Don't think too many people on these forums have accomplished that feat. Let alone 0.01% of the population.
 
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