Pity for Society

[GMSI7D]

they came up with the bystander effect, which is the tendency for hesitance to help to increase when there are more bystanders around.

.

the solution is to point at someone and give him an order with authority





" you , do that" " : call the police, do this things etc.

this is the official solution that studies found beause now the spectators are feeling concerned

there is no hesitation anymore about who should do this or that or nothing





social engineering has been officialy created because people are stupid and need to be managed to avoid a messy society


this is why there are dozens of institute and think tanks.

 

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[Aardvark]

social engineering has been officialy created because people are stupid and need to be managed to avoid a messy society

this is why there are dozens of institute and think tanks.

Never has a truer word been spoken.

 

[loop101]

That's an entirely different debate. Me, I'm glad guns aren't legal here. It would only lead to more murder and deaths - IMO.

They wouldn't have jumped out of the van with knives. They would have been armed to the teeth with freely available guns.

In America,we have the right to Bear Arms in order to guarantee our Free Speech. The 2nd Amendment protects the 1st Amendment. We have guns so the Government will fear us. Guns are what prevents citizens from becoming subjects. The right to own guns has nothing to do with protecting yourself from criminals or from hunting rabbits. The Revolutionary War started when the British were trying to confiscate weapons the colonists were hoarding.

Idiots shooting innocent people, or each other, is a sad price we have to pay in order to guarantee we have a "free" country. A "Free" country will almost always be violent if people enter it without assimilating in to it.

As for terrorists in Europe, they do often use illegal guns in their attacks.

You can't have a Free country without the possibility of violence. If I remember correctly, that's what the movie A Clockwork Orange was about.

 

[LucasJames]

We have guns so the Government will fear us. Guns are what prevents citizens from becoming subjects.

I hate to be that guy, but good luck protecting yourselves from tanks, jets, drones, choppers, etc with only guns. If the government does come after you I honestly dont think they'll be too fearful. Also if you've read unscripted you're probably aware that we're effectively subjects already anyway.

We have armed police in England as a seperate unit, they come when they're needed and they come quick. There is abosultely no reason for all UK policemen and woman to have guns. I could understand the argument for tazers but not guns.

 

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[Sfbloo]

As for terrorists in Europe, they do often use illegal guns in their attacks.

Im aware.

In the UK we don't have zero gun crime. We have very little in comparison though.

I won't go into it here it's another debate and everyone will have conflicting opinions. I don't live in the states so I don't mind nor care on the subject. Personally though I am appreciative that I live in a country where it isn't legal.

 

[MidwestLandlord]

^^^^^ What your thread title reminds me of @SteveO

You can't have a Free country without the possibility of violence.

You can't live with people without the possibility of violence.

As I often tell my kids: That's just the way the world works.

 

[scottmsul]

We have armed police in England as a seperate unit, they come when they're needed and they come quick. There is abosultely no reason for all UK policemen and woman to have guns. I could understand the argument for tazers but not guns.

Why not? In any serious conflict, the guys with the guns always have the upper hand. Even if the armed police arrive in five minutes, how many people have to die before they get there? And at a more fundamental level, is it not unfair to the citizens to actually have no way of defending themselves until the police show up?

 

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[V8Bill]

You know, I have to say this high flying thread has me thinking. I hope I can regain composure fast enough in a situation to do something which is different to the hope I had until now (tbh self preservation). A seed has been planted. I've had a good relatively long life and hope I'd be willing to think about people in more immediate danger than me. If I cop it I cop it. Hope I never have to test it but the longer I live the higher the chances I'll get a chance to test my metal.

 

[SquatchMan]

Hard times make hard people,
hard people make easy times,
easy times make soft people,
soft people make hard times.

Guess which cycle we're in at the moment?

You don't even have to look at the (lack of) response to the attack. Just look at some of the posts in this thread and some of the posts from younger members here.

In a different thread, one 19 year-old worked a whooping 26 hours over five days and got burned out so he took a day off... Oh yeah, he wakes up at 3PM everyday.

I don't think young people that grew up before WW2 were taking a day off after working 5 5 hours days. Could be wrong. I don't think I am though.

Hopefully we exit these hard times somewhat soon. The good thing is I think the generations born after 9/11 are somewhat hard people. Pendulum could be swinging....

Too bad they'll just be the hardest people on Xbox Live or Skyrim or whatever videogame people play (I don't play them. My parents never let me, which I hated at the time. I now thank them.).

 

[V8Bill]

Hopefully we exit these hard times somewhat soon.

I don't think we're in hard times. A few misguided lunatics with severe mental issues aren't going to change my belief that we're living in the best of (incredible) times and it's just going to keep getting better.

 

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[JWelch]

Another UK Member here, just outside of Manchester.

I have slightly different views, I believe that because we have become so tied by Political Correctness that we are trying to shut the door after the horse has bolted so to speak. Again without getting into politics here, especially after the last few weeks of campaigning I do feel that we are right on the edge of oblivion.

The Police have been so limited in what they can do without fear of upsetting anyone that they have been unable to perform their duties. What exists now is a massive, and I mean massive undercurrent of anti-west views, opinions and beliefs and we are too late to do anything. It's like trying to treat someone with pneumonia with cough syrup. They have been allowed to peddle their belief that we are inferior, demonic people who belong to die and go to hell for too long and now it is so rooted within their groups that we have no chance to deal with it.

By all accounts there are approximate 35000 people who have links to terrorist activities, influence or places of interest. 10% of these are being actively monitored whatever that means which suggests that they are dangerous, even if 1% of the overall amount of 35000 people of interest are highly dangerous that leaves 350 potential terrorists. 350 people isn't difficult to deal with, but the police cannot do anything until they break the law or have evidence, even if they know they are plotting something they can't touch them.

Look at the Rotherham Grooming Gang, the authorities knew about it. They actually knew about it but they couldn't do anything because of the PC world that we live in in the UK.

Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal - Wikipedia

We used to be taught to fight back, to stand up for what we believe in and to be proud of who we are. Now we are taught that if someone hits you you run and tell a teacher, you don't defend yourself. If you beliefs do not align with the most vocal of the population e.g. recently that Jeremy Corbyn is the messiah then you are racist or xenophobic. Unfortunately in the UK we are being brainwashed.

For more examples you can just look at any UK paper. E.G. one of the politicians over here (Dianne Abbott) completely fluffed up figures on numerous interviews, she got called out about it and labelled as inept. Do you know what the response was? They were racist and chauvinistic. Look, I don't care if someone is white or black, if they are male or female, if they are gay or straight, I really don't give a rats a$$. What I do care about is that they are capable of their job.

Sorry this has turned into a bit of a ramble, just getting things off my chest.

In short, people didn't fight back because we've been taught all our lives that if we stand out from the crowd in one way or another than we are in the wrong.

Being totally unpolitical here but that's exactly why I love my President.

 

[JWelch]

I hate to be that guy, but good luck protecting yourselves from tanks, jets, drones, choppers, etc with only guns. If the government does come after you I honestly dont think they'll be too fearful. Also if you've read unscripted you're probably aware that we're effectively subjects already anyway.

We have armed police in England as a seperate unit, they come when they're needed and they come quick. There is abosultely no reason for all UK policemen and woman to have guns. I could understand the argument for tazers but not guns.

Of course people can't by and large defeat jets and tanks etc. but these things are being deployed by PEOPLE and a tyrantical government are nothing more than people in buildings and 10,000,000 people heavily armed can certainly overwhelm that building security and take out evil leadership. That's the point. If you decapitate the head the body will follow.
Of course this is an unlikely situation but the idea is the same. People giving orders to an army CAN be taken out by a multitude of armed people. (Muammar Gaddafi is a perfect example of this).

 

[Sfbloo]

Hard times make hard people,
hard people make easy times,
easy times make soft people,
soft people make hard times.

Guess which cycle we're in at the moment?

You don't even have to look at the (lack of) response to the attack. Just look at some of the posts in this thread and some of the posts from younger members here.

In a different thread, one 19 year-old worked a whooping 26 hours over five days and got burned out so he took a day off... Oh yeah, he wakes up at 3PM everyday.

I don't think young people that grew up before WW2 were taking a day off after working 5 5 hours days. Could be wrong. I don't think I am though.

Hopefully we exit these hard times somewhat soon. The good thing is I think the generations born after 9/11 are somewhat hard people. Pendulum could be swinging....

Too bad they'll just be the hardest people on Xbox Live or Skyrim or whatever videogame people play (I don't play them. My parents never let me, which I hated at the time. I now thank them.).

Im struggling to see what your implying here. You've somehow linked footage of people evacuating an area or people rightly fearing their life with a lazy work ethic and love of computer games. Never mind pre ww2 most people now don't burn out after 25 hours work.

I don't know what media coverage you get stateside but I'm guessing it's around this perceived "lack of response". There was likely many selfless acts that night. Just because it isn't on video doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Without being there it's for no one to judge. If I met someone who ran or someone who stayed and fought I wouldn't think of them any less. I would hope my instinct would be to fight and help but as I've said my priority is safe guarding family by any means.

At the Manchester bombing two homeless men ran into the devastated scene and helped and comforted injured people. Some died in their arms. These lads had people climbing over them to flee with their children.

I don't know why they are homeless and what decisions have played in their lives. Undoubtedly they spent every day judged by some for being homeless.

These lads acted like heroes and have been rewarded with fundraising and chance of a fresh start. Those that weren't there to help at the time have helped these lads now. An opportunity to get back on their feet. Some people fight and some help in any other way they can, and some walk on. Everyone's different.

I don't believe we live in hard times. Life is good despite the actions of a minority.

 

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[windchaser]

I don't know if you guys have heard about who has been called by the media "the skateboarding hero" but he has been in the news of my country (Spain) all over this week and got me thinking a lot.

When he say the first attacker with the knife attacking a woman he went to fight him with his skateboard, unfortunately, both he and the woman died and that gave the opportunity for a lot of people to to escape and save their lives.
He made the ultimate sacrifice and died as a hero and that got me thinking a lot. What if the rest of the people chose to fight as well instead of run to safety? What would I have done?

That reminded me a time when a friend of mine was mugged (with violence but no weapons) in the street in plain sunlight and surrounded by a lot of people and no one did anything.

If in smaller situations we don't do anything, imagine is life or death ones, I don't know if it is a problem with society or that everyday each of us is becoming more and more selfish or maybe is just human nature.

It is very difficult to really know what you would do, I would like to think I would be one of the fighters but probably, facing the situation, unless they were directly attacking me or someone I love, I would be one of the majority, the runners.
That is why heroes make the headlines, because they are the outliers, it is sad but very true.

 

[ChickenHawk]

In 1964, a girl named Kitty Genovese was murdered in New York by a man with a knife. According to police investigations, the local residents heard her cries for help but they failed to get help until it was too late.

I see your point. But actually, much of this has been debunked. Neighbors did try to help, and multiple calls to the police were ignored until it was too late. The story was mostly made up by the Police Commissioner to distract people from the department's own sorry response to violent crime. The New York Times reported this story as fact, without really checking. From there, the story took on a life all its own. As a result, the neighbors of this poor woman were falsely vilified, all because a corrupt government official was trying to cover his a$$, and a lazy, sensationalist reporter couldn't be bothered to check the facts.

http://nypost.com/2014/02/16/book-reveals-real-story-behind-the-kitty-genovese-murder/
Some of the real thoughtlessness came from a police commissioner who lazily passed a falsehood to a journalist, and a media that fell so deeply in love with a story that it couldn’t be bothered to determine whether it was true.

 

[ChickenHawk]

I have slightly different views, I believe that because we have become so tied by Political Correctness that we are trying to shut the door after the horse has bolted so to speak. Again without getting into politics here, especially after the last few weeks of campaigning I do feel that we are right on the edge of oblivion.

This is all true. In fact, one guy, hunkering down in a pub while it's literally under assault by terrorists, was scolded by a fellow countryman for simply saying disparaging things about his attackers. This sissy-a$$ PC-scolding occurred DURING the attack. So, rather than fighting, oh, i dunno, actual terrorists, this douchebag word-polices the guy next to him.

r/K selection theory: There is a growing theory that people are either "r-selected" like rabbits, or "K-selected" like wolves. The rabbits will hunker down and hope the predator eats their neighbor instead, while the wolves will organize and fight back. The book that details it was one of the most thought-provoking things I've ever read. (I'd post a link, but the book is political in nature.) But right now, rabbit behavior is rewarded, while wolf-behavior is discouraged. This is because times are still relatively good, and courage is undervalued. If/when times become hard, wolf-behavior will once again become favored. In fact, there's signs of that, even now.

 

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[loop101]

I hate to be that guy, but good luck protecting yourselves from tanks, jets, drones, choppers, etc with only guns. If the government does come after you I honestly dont think they'll be too fearful. Also if you've read unscripted you're probably aware that we're effectively subjects already anyway.

We have armed police in England as a seperate unit, they come when they're needed and they come quick. There is abosultely no reason for all UK policemen and woman to have guns. I could understand the argument for tazers but not guns.

The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 was enacted to prevent the military from enforcing laws domestically.

For example: Army reviews shows troop use in Samson killing spree violated federal law

"The Department of Army Inspector General found a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act, which restrains the use of the military for civilian law enforcement purposes.

The Aug. 10 report says it does not appear the historic tradition of limiting direct military involvement in civilian law enforcement activities was analyzed or considered.

It says the intent was to be a good Army neighbor."

 

[CycleGuy]

Psychology time.
I rip on academics, but there was an interesting thing I learned in Psychology.
In 1964, a girl named Kitty Genovese was murdered in New York by a man with a knife. According to police investigations, the local residents heard her cries for help but they failed to get help until it was too late. When it was further investigated by Latane and John Darley, they came up with the bystander effect, which is the tendency for hesitance to help to increase when there are more bystanders around.

Suppose you see an accident and you are in a large crowd You are busy shopping and you are rushing to get things done, so you think 'never mind, someone else can help.' You might have some guilt pangs, but there are so many people around, surely someone else more skilled can help the victim? You hope that someone else will do the job, as in most cases if you help, there is no reward or even worse, 'punishment' in the form of injury and even public disapproval. This is cost analysis, the role of reinforcements.

The helpers are few because they choose not to follow the crowd, and their choices made them the outliers, something that science cannot document or measure well enough to replicate, because again, there are too few to sample. Theoretically if there were more people, the situation would have been diffused very quickly, but as I have said, the bystander effect will start working when there is a large crowd and will reduce crowd efficiency in offering assistance.

Now to think of it, I think this is a very crucial mental working in the SCRIPT framework, to keep everyone inactive and mediocre in the happy little lives. When everyone lives in the same conventional thinking and lifestyle, they decide not to go for the big goals or wealth as 'someone else will do it, there's a lot of people around me' or 'not me, I'm less skillful and I might lose'. But yup, as those heroes have shown, you can beat conventional mediocre science and statistics just by simply choosing to act.

This really hit me hard reading this, because I know it's true. It's almost the 2 year anniversary of a deadly accident I responded to outside of the business. A large SUV traveling at 60mph, hit a small passenger car that failed to yield. I heard the accident happen and ran outside as the vehicles were coming to a stop. I called 911 instantly and sprinted across the 4 lane highway. The small car had 4 people inside and was completely mangled. A 3 month old was stuck in the car while the mom was crying and yelling her baby wasn't breathing and they couldn't get out of the car. I jerked the stuck rear door open with all my strength. As I am pulling the baby's car seat out, a 31 year old man lay bloody and motionless in the front passenger seat. I remove the car seat and I held the motionless baby in my arms as another bystander who just happened to be a nurse started CPR. Standing there with the baby cradled in my arms felt like an eternity, seconds felt like minutes, minutes like hours. He lay unresponsive in my arms as the nurse tried her absolute best to revive the little guy. Finally the paramedics arrive and take the baby away.

He died at the hospital two days later. Just writing this brings me to tears.

Your outlier statement hit me hard. I didn't or don't see myself as an outlier. I just simply did what I felt was right. I know the little guy didn't make it but I like to think he saved some other babies since his organs were donated.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Here's a related thread, I believe this was started because of the Paris attack at the concert venue. (Which BTW, if you learn what the terrorists did to their victims, you might never be the same.)

Notable! - Imminent Threat Survival

As for this attack scenario, it's too easy to armchair my reaction to it and say I'd be one of the few with courage. Too simple of a conclusion in hindsight amidst more information that came later.

However not absent the situation, not absent the adrenaline, and not absent the chaos around me, I think all the ideas of "courage" become replaced with a self-preservation instinct. Too many variables -- my guess is I'd guess that the attackers would be armed with bombs as well ... if you're on a suicide mission, why not finish with a boom instead of a bullet to the head?

 

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[Jonathan C]

Here's a related thread, I believe this was started because of the Paris attack at the concert venue. (Which BTW, if you learn what the terrorists did to their victims, you might never be the same.)

Notable! - Imminent Threat Survival

As for this attack scenario, it's too easy to armchair my reaction to it and say I'd be one of the few with courage. Too simple of a conclusion in hindsight amidst more information that came later.

However absent the situation, absent the adrenaline, and absent the chaos around me, I think all the ideas of "courage" become replaced with a self-preservation instinct. Too many variables -- my guess is I'd guess that the attackers would be armed with bombs as well ... if you're on a suicide mission, why not finish with a boom instead of a bullet to the head?

I feel the same way but you said it better than I could think to.

 

[Runum]

I feel the same way but you said it better than I could think to.

Just thinking out loud, there is a need for a personal, portable shield. One that could stop a standard bulltet(kevlar?) and deflect shrapnel from a small blast at a certain distance. The shield could also be used as an offensive tool in close fighting.

Something like a personal force field ala Star Trek comes to mind.

I have not done any research so debate nicely. Just spit balling ideas to be proactive and maybe a new market?

Also @SteveO is right, overall our society looks down upon self defense. When I was in school the coaches would let you put on gloves and duke it out to settle differences. A little scuffle was no big deal. Now if two boys get to pushing each other it is immediately shut down. I know it is not PC but sometimes the other person needs to get his eye dotted to understand to leave each other alone.

 

[V8Bill]

What about kevlar umbrellas? I'd buy one! The design already exists, just needs toughening up.

 

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[Contrarian]

My worry is that I look around and I see so many my age or younger (I'm 30) who believe the world owes them a living and they deserve to be rich, drive that Ferrari they see, order bottles of Grey Goose on nights and that somehow someone somewhere will give it them. Talking briefly about the election just gone I think so many young people voted because they heard "FREE UNIVERSITY", "WIPE OFF YOUR STUDENT DEBT", "FIGHT AGAINST BREXIT".

Quietly observing Faceache at election time is always a great way to induce this reaction:

It's the shortcut scam writ large. Want to feel important? Kind? Generous? On the "right side of history" (whatever the hell that even means)?

Aren't willing to do the hard work, soul-searching self examination and constant struggle that actually becoming any of those things requires? That's OK - for a deposit of your vote and 12 easy payments of distributing your would-be slavemaster's viral marketing propaganda all over the interwebs, YOU TOO can instantly achieve enlightenment.

And at a more fundamental level, is it not unfair to the citizens to actually have no way of defending themselves until the police show up?

That's it in a nutshell for me. It's almost irrelevant whether better outcomes would be produced by an armed or unarmed populace. There's a huge moral difference IMO between being killed through misfortune and being killed because you were forcibly prevented by "law" from defending yourself.

The question is not whether everyone walking around with loaded rifles slung over their shoulders would make for a better world (IMO, it would definitely not). The question is whether there is any moral justification for dragging a peaceful person out of their home and throwing them in prison for ten years for merely owning a tool to defend themselves.

 

[Jonathan C]

Below is a relevant article. Its about military veterans who found a better way to fight terrorism via entrepreneurism. According to "50 Ways to Create Great Relationships", the US military considers love to be the most powerful psychological weapon. The article below exemplifies that principle.

These Military Vets Have Found A Smarter Way To Fight The War On Terror

 

[ZF Lee]

This really hit me hard reading this, because I know it's true. It's almost the 2 year anniversary of a deadly accident I responded to outside of the business. A large SUV traveling at 60mph, hit a small passenger car that failed to yield. I heard the accident happen and ran outside as the vehicles were coming to a stop. I called 911 instantly and sprinted across the 4 lane highway. The small car had 4 people inside and was completely mangled. A 3 month old was stuck in the car while the mom was crying and yelling her baby wasn't breathing and they couldn't get out of the car. I jerked the stuck rear door open with all my strength. As I am pulling the baby's car seat out, a 31 year old man lay bloody and motionless in the front passenger seat. I remove the car seat and I held the motionless baby in my arms as another bystander who just happened to be a nurse started CPR. Standing there with the baby cradled in my arms felt like an eternity, seconds felt like minutes, minutes like hours. He lay unresponsive in my arms as the nurse tried her absolute best to revive the little guy. Finally the paramedics arrive and take the baby away.

He died at the hospital two days later. Just writing this brings me to tears.

Your outlier statement hit me hard. I didn't or don't see myself as an outlier. I just simply did what I felt was right. I know the little guy didn't make it but I like to think he saved some other babies since his organs were donated.

Your story hit me harder
I have seen similar cases, bad or worse too, but most of the time everyone just drove by or paused to take photos, creating jams that would block the medics vehicle on the way.
Pretty infuriating and sad. It is actually the social norm to do that shit, evil as it is.

I see your point. But actually, much of this has been debunked. Neighbors did try to help, and multiple calls to the police were ignored until it was too late. The story was mostly made up by the Police Commissioner to distract people from the department's own sorry response to violent crime. The New York Times reported this story as fact, without really checking. From there, the story took on a life all its own. As a result, the neighbors of this poor woman were falsely vilified, all because a corrupt government official was trying to cover his a$$, and a lazy, sensationalist reporter couldn't be bothered to check the facts.

http://nypost.com/2014/02/16/book-reveals-real-story-behind-the-kitty-genovese-murder/
Some of the real thoughtlessness came from a police commissioner who lazily passed a falsehood to a journalist, and a media that fell so deeply in love with a story that it couldn’t be bothered to determine whether it was true.

Yes, hehe, my psychology course ommitted that out. Not because of bias or anything, but it was an academic syllabus, a general pre-uni course where you couldn't go too deep down the rabbit hole. If there were any criticisms to be made, it might have ended up on a research paper or literature review. I find that the subject tends to beat around the bush with loopholes, overhype and the same shit that mirrors the biases and bullshit theat Fastlaners complain on the wealth book industry.
But the researchers behind it simulated the scenerio once more, this time simulating an accident victim, and the similar results occured. Over time, more studies were done, and yes, the results were repeated.
But whether Kitty was helped or not, the social diffusion and bystander effects have been there since time immortal.

Thanks for popping up. Psych is not that boring in that way.

Here's a related thread, I believe this was started because of the Paris attack at the concert venue. (Which BTW, if you learn what the terrorists did to their victims, you might never be the same.)

Notable! - Imminent Threat Survival

As for this attack scenario, it's too easy to armchair my reaction to it and say I'd be one of the few with courage. Too simple of a conclusion in hindsight amidst more information that came later.

However not absent the situation, not absent the adrenaline, and not absent the chaos around me, I think all the ideas of "courage" become replaced with a self-preservation instinct. Too many variables -- my guess is I'd guess that the attackers would be armed with bombs as well ... if you're on a suicide mission, why not finish with a boom instead of a bullet to the head?

You and I rip on Robert Kiyosaki.
But he said some things that stick with me to this day. In his ebook Rich Dad's Prophecy, although it was full of filler material and fluff, he mentioned in his discussions concerning future predictions, that terrorism, one of the shit that comes along with a more globalised world, is not only bad because of the killing and bombs, but because it's cheap.

You don't need to be of a certain race or affliation to be a terrorist.
You don't need heavy ordnance or expensive funding to be a terrorist.
All you need is a choice to inflict fear.

Yup, fear is the real bullet and the real casualty. When terrorists dress up normally like ordinary Joes or in khakis or uniforms like the police or security forces that protect us, they just turn the good guys into monsters. We begin to fear our neighbours and the security forces protecting us because we can't trust them. For all you know, a wolf is hidden among the shepherds or even sheep.

And yup, you talked a lot about FEAR's impact and destruction in UNSCRIPTED , so I will not go there...it's a rabbit hole that goes down for a long time.

Concerning terrorism one last time, you can just be drunken man under the influence and yet cause enough panic and chaos just by muttering some wrong words with no basis.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/31/world/australia/malaysia-airlines-bomb-threat.html?_r=0
A flight got disrupted because some Sri-Lankan just blubbered crap about a bomb which was just a charger device.....

 

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