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Moved From WP To Hardcore Coding

Amro

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Oct 5, 2018
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Hi all,

I f*cked up. Wanted to go for wordpress but found myself with different issue's involving plugins which didn't suit eachother. Lesson learned. Let's go hardcore. Need to reteach myself coding again but will start from scratch. HTML, CSS, Javascript, PHP and MYSQL here I come. Need to get to know you again but we were good friends in the past :).

W3schools is a good source if you ask me. They also got an exercise part now which gives you massive time profit if you have some experience with coding. I hope i'll learn enough in the coming 2-4 weeks so I can start developing the system I'm planning to build.

What do you guys advice? Start building while learning or learn first and then start building?

All the best,
Amro
 

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Xeon

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If you don't mind sharing, what WordPress plugins did you use? I remembered you were starting an auction site?

If you code the whole beast from scratch, it feels like it may distract you from the goal which is marketing.....you may end up working IN the business, maintaining the code and fixing bugs on days with no end....instead of getting traction and more and more people to sign up and use your site.....

And before you know it, you're no longer running an auction biz, but have written a piece of auction website app.....which you may then consider changing your business and sell that auction software to others instead.....

I could be wrong though, as seeing how MJ coded his Limos website from scratch, but then again, tech was a lot more straightforward and basic back then.
 
Last edited:

rogue synthetic

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If you code the whole beast from scratch, it feels like it may distract you from the goal which is marketing.....you may end up working IN the business, maintaining the code and fixing bugs on days with no end....instead of getting traction and more and more people to sign up and use your site...
Seconding this. I'm as decent with code as any weekend warrior coder. There is absolutely a trade-off in time and focus between coding tasks and every other business task. I don't even think that marketing-focused folks should be dealing with customer service and other basic admin tasks if they can afford to outsource it.

Trying to pick up a big framework, and yeah you'll need to build on something like Laravel, Django, ROR, some such, is going to be a project in itself. This is a personal demon I've had to wrestle with myself.

Do I want to be guts-deep in PHP and CSS code all day to make some pretty-looking Wordpress sites?

Or do I just want the thing to work while I get on with the part of the business that makes money (the part which is creating offers and selling them)?

OP you need to ask yourself these questions. Do you want to code or do you want to get down to business?
 

jon.M

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IMO you should check out Django, a web framework for Python. It's high level and allows you to focus on the big picture and get up and running quickly.
 

daru

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IMO you should check out Django, a web framework for Python. It's high level and allows you to focus on the big picture and get up and running quickly.
Yeah, and the documentation is outstanding for that project.
 
OP
OP
Amro

Amro

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Hi folks,

But how about the "process" guys? Process make the entry more difficult right? And since my auction system has unique angles it's more save if I create it myself then outsource the darn thing. And last but not least, How long will it take to code on online auction? Once I have a grasp of the code?

@Xeon. I use the following plugins:
YITH WooCommerce Auctions | YITH
and others I need to make it frontend entering for members.

The reason I want to code it are because of the following reasons:
-Loadingspeed of the website (All those plugins make the site load slow)
-A lot of unnecessary code which is not needed and not used
-Plugins haven't got exactly what I need which means another plugin needs to be created
-Plugins have a lot I don't need
-Have plugins from different suppliers makes a mess of overview
-Which on it's term makes it difficult for support staff later on to get a grasp

So what are the advantages of coding it from scratch:
-I can something which loads very fast since it's ultra lightweight :) User experience :)
-Everything there is is needed
-All code is used so google is happy too
-I can organize things nicely so support will have an easier job in finding stuff too
-I can splittest different includes so even the auction page where a product is auction can be splittested in different parts at the same time

I'm only deciding if I code it from scratch or as a complete wordpress plugin but then again a lot of code which is unused. I can also outsource it to a programmer. I have the money to do this. But then again, in the TMF was written that process is one of the CENTS commandments which makes an entry barrier. What do you say @MJ DeMarco?

All the best,
Amro
 

RazorCut

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My opinion would be farm it out. You are the captain not the bloody engineer. Leave the work below decks to those that do it for a living. They will do a far better job than you in a fraction of the time. Concentrate on delegating.

You think that if you learn to code and make it yourself it creates a higher barrier to entry? If you can learn and build in a couple of months what could someone who is already a kick arse coder do? It's not a barrier.

I could be wrong though, as seeing how MJ coded his Limos website from scratch, but then again, tech was a lot more straightforward and basic back then.
I would be surprised if MJ would do it himself in today's market.

Are you building a business or creating a hobby?
 
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OP
OP
Amro

Amro

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Hi @RazorCut,

Basically outsourcing the darn thing is also time profit since you can focus on developing the business indeed instead of learning code.

Thanks.

All the best,
Amro
 

RazorCut

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Basically outsourcing the darn thing is also time profit since you can focus on developing the business indeed instead of learning code.
Exactly. Your job is to get the ship to its destination as safely, quickly and efficiently as possible.
 
OP
OP
Amro

Amro

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Oct 5, 2018
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Hi @RazorCut,

So basically outsourcing what you can outsource wins it from doing it yourself? I learned a few things from a cool guy called Scott Hallman who had some interested angles on certain things but he said that if you can outsource the whole thing you'll sell the company at the highest price since the new owners don't need to invest 100 hours a week into it since it's running as an oiled machine.

All the best,
Amro
 

fhs8

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Moving from WP to scratch would be a complete waste of time. WP has it's issues but it's solid from a security standpoint and has so many functions that might be needed. Outsource it if you want the end product to be crap or get ripped off. Lots of devs also put in backdoors to make sure they get paid and don't care about security. If your site is ever seen as "infected" by google you can kiss any revenue it might generate for at least a few months.

As for loadspeed there is so much involved. Bad coding can make the site run 10x slower. I've seen plugins add tons of db entries slowing everything down when none should've been added in the first place. At first the site will seem fast but eventually slow down as you get more customers/products/orders.

Even WP has this kind of issue. See this: #33885 (meta_form performs a potentially expensive query) – WordPress Trac
Yes 10x faster loading of pages with meta keys when it's fixed by changing the database. No update for WP fixed the issue and it's been going on for years.

If you want something done you better do it yourself and you better know how to stop someone from hacking your site.
 

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Last edited:

jpn

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@Amro why did you choose Wordpress? There are quite a few specialized platforms out there that allow you to build market places and I would expect that with a few plugins or a custom plugin you could get all the features you want. Maybe look at magenta with a multi-vendor plugin or Mirakl.

This is assuming you will have other people put items for sale on the site. If you are the only seller you should be able to build it with simpler setups. Without Wordpress, but with solutions that are designed to run sites that sell things.
 

Xeon

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The reason I want to code it are because of the following reasons:
-Loadingspeed of the website (All those plugins make the site load slow)
What web hosting are you using now?
Give something like Cloudways or Runcloud a try. They're basically based on Digital Ocean/Linode/AWS/Google servers without the traditional cpanel cloud hosting setup.

I used to be on those traditional web host, then switched over recently.
Page load speed is insane & literally instant.
E.g: you type in the URL and the pages shows up right after you tapped Enter, and I'm testing it from San Francisco servers here from Singapore. My site has 31 plugins and it doesn't affect the speed at all.

The lowest tier plan which I'm using is only $10 a month, so money wise, it's very sustainable.

Anyway, since you say you've the money to farm it out, maybe the best option is to do the bulk of it on WP, then hire a firm to code the custom plugin, instead of literally doing the whole thing from scratch?

I mean, if you've your own team of elite devs, I can understand, but if it's a 1-man show and you're not on that high-tier coder level, then....

Let's not forget. If you intend to code this yourself, besides fixing the bugs and dealing with code maintenance, you ALSO have to keep yourself constantly up to date with the latest advancements in tech : new API, new stacks, backwards compatibility if you upgrade part X....and that's not including the hardware side. It's not just code-and-forget.

As if that's not enough....you also have to review the code architecture and UI/UX/design (which is insane by itself), and have to plan for new versions of your auction software.

At that point in time, maybe it's time to flip open the newspapers, and try the following:

 

GIlman

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If you have the ability to code it, I would code it. At least the initial version.

If not, outsourcing is a good option. As someone said above, if your wanting to sell the business later it might be easier to do it if then operations can run without you.

As far as being scared away from using outsourced labor, with out a doubt there are bad player out there. But using word press doesn’t fix this either because someone who writes a plug in or module can add malicious code - i.e. any code you personally don’t write could exploit you. Using wordpress is just another form of outsourcing.

There are also a huge number of honest hard working devs out there. I own an outsourcing company in vietnam with 20 employees, and i can tell you we have never once inserted a back door in our code. I would fire anyone on the spot that tried to. All of our teams (usually 2-3 coders) submit their work daily to the team lead who reviews it all, and would identify and remove anything like that. I’m sure a lot of dev teams work the same way.

Also, from your post it sounds like you know how to code. So why not just audit the commits daily yourself? I’ve done this with projects, and you will produce much better software if you do. You’ll notice sooner when the dev doesn’t understand your spec. And on top of it they aren’t going to slip any malicious code in if they know your looking and giving them feedback on their code directly.

Personally I would avoid word press like the plague for a project like this. The database schema is in no way optimized for this type of project, and you’ll have significant scaling issues. It really shouldn’t be hugely hard to code an auction site. I know I could code a fairly functional app like that is 7-10 days. Not a huge investment to have a solid MVP.

Good luck
 
OP
OP
Amro

Amro

Contributor
Oct 5, 2018
94
82
68
Schoorl
Hi,

@Amro why did you choose Wordpress? There are quite a few specialized platforms out there that allow you to build market places and I would expect that with a few plugins or a custom plugin you could get all the features you want. Maybe look at magenta with a multi-vendor plugin or Mirakl.

This is assuming you will have other people put items for sale on the site. If you are the only seller you should be able to build it with simpler setups. Without Wordpress, but with solutions that are designed to run sites that sell things.
The reason I used wordpress because of the blackbox principle as well as global usage. And indeed it skips a lot of stuff which you will be need but is allready developed.

What web hosting are you using now?
Give something like Cloudways or Runcloud a try. They're basically based on Digital Ocean/Linode/AWS/Google servers without the traditional cpanel cloud hosting setup.

I used to be on those traditional web host, then switched over recently.
Page load speed is insane & literally instant.
E.g: you type in the URL and the pages shows up right after you tapped Enter, and I'm testing it from San Francisco servers here from Singapore. My site has 31 plugins and it doesn't affect the speed at all.

The lowest tier plan which I'm using is only $10 a month, so money wise, it's very sustainable.

Anyway, since you say you've the money to farm it out, maybe the best option is to do the bulk of it on WP, then hire a firm to code the custom plugin, instead of literally doing the whole thing from scratch?

I mean, if you've your own team of elite devs, I can understand, but if it's a 1-man show and you're not on that high-tier coder level, then....

Let's not forget. If you intend to code this yourself, besides fixing the bugs and dealing with code maintenance, you ALSO have to keep yourself constantly up to date with the latest advancements in tech : new API, new stacks, backwards compatibility if you upgrade part X....and that's not including the hardware side. It's not just code-and-forget.

As if that's not enough....you also have to review the code architecture and UI/UX/design (which is insane by itself), and have to plan for new versions of your auction software.

At that point in time, maybe it's time to flip open the newspapers, and try the following:

I am using strato.nl. It's a european hosting company. A daughter company from T-Mobile. I'll check those hosts you mentioned.

All the best,
Amro
 
OP
OP
Amro

Amro

Contributor
Oct 5, 2018
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Schoorl
Hi @GIlman,

If you have the ability to code it, I would code it. At least the initial version.

If not, outsourcing is a good option. As someone said above, if your wanting to sell the business later it might be easier to do it if then operations can run without you.

As far as being scared away from using outsourced labor, with out a doubt there are bad player out there. But using word press doesn’t fix this either because someone who writes a plug in or module can add malicious code - i.e. any code you personally don’t write could exploit you. Using wordpress is just another form of outsourcing.

There are also a huge number of honest hard working devs out there. I own an outsourcing company in vietnam with 20 employees, and i can tell you we have never once inserted a back door in our code. I would fire anyone on the spot that tried to. All of our teams (usually 2-3 coders) submit their work daily to the team lead who reviews it all, and would identify and remove anything like that. I’m sure a lot of dev teams work the same way.

Also, from your post it sounds like you know how to code. So why not just audit the commits daily yourself? I’ve done this with projects, and you will produce much better software if you do. You’ll notice sooner when the dev doesn’t understand your spec. And on top of it they aren’t going to slip any malicious code in if they know your looking and giving them feedback on their code directly.

Personally I would avoid word press like the plague for a project like this. The database schema is in no way optimized for this type of project, and you’ll have significant scaling issues. It really shouldn’t be hugely hard to code an auction site. I know I could code a fairly functional app like that is 7-10 days. Not a huge investment to have a solid MVP.

Good luck
Thanks for the constructive feedback. Having backdoors can also be noticed in a few different ways. Let others scan different parts of the code. Etc etc.

Do you have php/mysql experience?

All the best,
Amro
 

GIlman

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Hi @GIlman,



Thanks for the constructive feedback. Having backdoors can also be noticed in a few different ways. Let others scan different parts of the code. Etc etc.

Do you have php/mysql experience?

All the best,
Amro
For a site like yours php/mysql would work fine. Years ago i use to use that stack exclusively. There is a variant of php called phalcon which is super fast if people know how to use it. It provides MVC structure to compete with Ruby on Rails, but unlike RoR won’t fight you if you need to break the structure pattern to code something.

However now I prefer Node on the backend, any database is fine but I personally use mongoDb, and on the front end everything is programmed in react which is all javascript. React allows you to make apps in the browser, think google docs or spreadsheets. Of course that’s not necessary for every project.

But any language built for the web can create a solid platform.
 
OP
OP
Amro

Amro

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Oct 5, 2018
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Hi,

Hmmmm. Now you make me secondguess again. I guess validating forms and securing forms for sql injections would allready sufice right? Offcourse you'll have the sophisticated hackers but let's just hope they stay away long enough.

All the best,
Amro
 

GIlman

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You’ll get lots of opinions. None are right or wrong, it just depends on the direction your going with your product.

Wordpress is a content management system for blogs. People have written modules to hack the functionality and add extra features. This method is probably not too bad if the scope of features you need to add is relatively small.

Once these are done will you be happy with it? Do you envision continuously adding new features to make it a more robust, integrated, and feature rich system. If the answer is yes, in my opinion a custom project wins hands down.

The more you code, the more of a limitation wordpress will be.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Amro

Amro

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Oct 5, 2018
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Hi,

Thanks. I was thinking the same. Do you have any suggestions for php/mysql coders?

All the best,
Amro
 

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rogue synthetic

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@Amro I don't know anything about your hosting or your plugin situation but I can tell you from experience that WP will go as fast as anything if you treat it right.

What usually happens: grab some cheap shared hosting, add plugins until the dashboard won't load, maybe grab a bloated ThemeForest theme, and then blame Wordpress for being "too slow".

What you should do: put it on a snappy VPS server, get your caching sorted, don't install plugins for every minor function you think you need, get a quality theme, and Wordpress will go as fast as anything you're likely to code for yourself.
 

404profound

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After trying many sources to learn js, I highly recommend eloquentjavascript.net as a starting point to learn the language. Doing that interactive book prepped me to jump into one of the main frameworks. Just my two cents.
 

404profound

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For a site like yours php/mysql would work fine. Years ago i use to use that stack exclusively. There is a variant of php called phalcon which is super fast if people know how to use it. It provides MVC structure to compete with Ruby on Rails, but unlike RoR won’t fight you if you need to break the structure pattern to code something.

However now I prefer Node on the backend, any database is fine but I personally use mongoDb, and on the front end everything is programmed in react which is all javascript. React allows you to make apps in the browser, think google docs or spreadsheets. Of course that’s not necessary for every project.

But any language built for the web can create a solid platform.
Currently using Vue / Node / Express / Mongo... wouldn't change for anything
 
OP
OP
Amro

Amro

Contributor
Oct 5, 2018
94
82
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Schoorl
Hi all,

Thanks for the replies and feedback. To give you some more info. I have good knowledge of HTML and basic understand of CSS, PHP and MYSQL. I only need to learn javascript/jquery/ajax and practisch and apply. I think 1-2 months max if I apply what I learn since you can find everything you need online. I must say that wordpress is a good platform but I also think that @GIlman is right about it to be a blogging platform and not for auction or ecommerce sites or whatever although woocommerce is popular though. Creating something from scratch will be better and this will be the way to go for me for now. If I find it to hard and I loose to much time i'll divert to outsourcing on Upwork.

Thanks all.

All the best,
Amro
 

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