Mind uploading Project:

[gabteron]

Ok so what I’m about to write in this article might sound a bit crazy and out there but considering the recent developments in technology and the general path humanity is currently on, I do consider that what I'm going to speak about will inevitably sooner or later become a reality, maybe even sooner than we think.

So here it is, let’s talk about mind uploading :

Just as a context, my background, is in psychology, computer science and programming, meaning I have a bit of knowledge in these fields.

I was always interested in cutting edge technology and computers, and also interested and fascinated by how our brain works. So, long story short, somehow I managed to go from a major in psychology to being a software developer.

My main motivation for switching to computer science was in fact artificial intelligence and especially mind uploading.

You see all throughout my collage years and after graduating the A.I. and neural networks craze really started to ramp up and got me increasingly curios and motivated about these ideas, so I started to do some research.

How these new artificial neurons work, how computers work, how programming languages work and so on. And what I discovered was a simple yet powerful idea:

A home computer nowadays has 100’s of times more memory and more computing power( speed) than a human brain. And so, why are they still dumb when it comes to what for us are considered relative simple tasks like driving a car or walking or identifying some objects in a picture. The answer is quite simple : algorithms and the way they process information.

A computer has much more memory and a lot of processing speed. For example, the maximum rate a human neuron can fire, is about 1000HZ or about 1000 times per second. A typical home PC on the other hand can get to 3,5 GHz that is 3.5 million times faster.

The main difference is that a computer algorithm processes information in a linear manner and the natural brains interprets information in a parallel manner.

Also, a computer has strict mathematics rules and operates based on digital logic gates that can have either a value of 1 or a 0.

A brain, on the other hand, has structures that computes information in an analog fashion, much like how vinyl record disks work, compared to CDs or DVDs.

On a CD or DVD, the information is stored digitally in 1 and 0 format. Vinyl records store audio information in an analog manner. The sound waves are physically engraved onto the surface of the vinyl disk in a continuous spiral groove.

The differences are quite major in structure, and function, but from what modern neural networks (ChatGPT, MidJourney for example) can do, we see that some “brain” functionality can be replicated on a modern computer. And what I do believe is that all functionality can be replicated.

Even if a computer can’t have the massive parallel processing a human brain has, it can simulate that parallel processing using the massive speed advantage it has over the human brain, remember it’s 3.5 million times faster and even more that.

Also, the examples of what humans can do better than computers are shrinking by the day with new versions of Tesla self-driving, ChatGPT, Sora and countless other AI models. They are proof that we are slowly but surly closing the gap.

So why not start thinking about storing and even fully simulating a human mind inside a computer system ?

For me, it seems like such an obvious path that humanity can take and that would solve a lot of our problems like for instance not dying , a lot of automation on a massive scale and so on, basically bring the next era of technological revolution.

But let’s not get too ahead of ourselves. The most important first question would be, can this actually be done?

Well if we approach the problem from a biological point of view and look at what nature has achieved, we find the same basic principles of neural communication conserved across different animals and insects , ranging from the most simple (Starfish about 500 neurons) to the most complex: Human brain about 90 billion neurons.

Of course, while neurons serve similar functions across different animal species, including insects, there are variations in their structures and functions based on the evolutionary adaptations. The main point here is that we already have a blueprint, a working model. And the model works based on a clearly defined set of biochemical and physical rules.

Rules that can be replicated or better put simulated in a modern computer system. As an example AMD MI300X graphics card has 153 Billion transistor, which of course a transistor is not doing as much as a neuron, but we are already creating structures as complex maybe even more complex than a human brain.

The massive barrier is that we can’t take apart a human brain as easily as a CPU to look inside and see how it is structured. But that can be overcome.


Also, if we look at the specs for a MI300X it has some ridiculous numbers in terms of operations per second, memory and speed that natural brains are just not able to do, so there is a lot of computing power to play with.

Modern neural networks do take advantage of this power but as spectacular as they appear to be, they have substantial shortcomings like needing huge volumes of data to be trained, not being 100% deterministic (aka we don’t know with 100% accuracy what they will do) and we don’t really know exactly how they work.


This is the main problem we are facing: the software is not good enough. Nature has had millions of years to create human and mammalian brains, we have computers for a couple of decades, there are still a lot of improvements to be made.

I do think we have not yet found, or designed algorithms good enough to be able to do what a human brain can do, and I do think some new ways of approaching the problem are needed in order to design systems that are truly useful, safe and reliable.

Now let's come back to mind uploading and the reason I’m writing all this. Simply put, I want to start a deliberate effort in this direction.

Over the years I have done some research on my own but it has become quite obvious this is not a 1-man project.

I know there are various efforts done in this direction like Neuralink , Human brain project, Carboncopies Foundation and a few others. But I feel like some fresh new perspectives are needed and a deliberate, bold effort in that direction.

What I want to do is start a project that is solely focused on this problem, how to first simulate and store a human mind in a computer system and second how to read a biological mind and transfer that mind in a simulated environment.


A project focused more on replicating what nature has already done, since the model is already there. It’s right in front of us and is working spectacularly well. We just need to emulate it on a silicon based substrate instead of a biological one.

I do believe that we already have the technology, the hardware to do the first part, that is to fully simulate and store a human mind. We just need some new creative ways in which we simulate neurons.

The second problem is a bit harder to solve, there are some solutions to it, for instance using devices like what Neuralink has, to read brain activity and then use AI to model the neurons, various imaging techniques and so on. But as difficult of a task it may be, history has shown us, what was once considered impossible or extremely difficult can be made trivial.

Humans for hundreds of years dreamed about the moon even before flight was still a thing and now here we are. What was once just an idea is now part of everyday life. We take huge machines into the sky every day, into the earth’s orbit and beyond.

I know it’s a super ambitious, crazy project but the world we live in, is becoming a bit crazy and yea why the hell not? We are already stumbling in that direction, might as well make it a deliberate and controlled effort.

My question to you all is. How can I get this project started?
From what I have researched, my best bet is on government research programs or some visionary millionaire wiling to fund a high risk, high reward project.

Any advice or feedback would be appreciated, thanks!

 

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[Bounce Back]

Besides me thinking people are absolutely insane for aspiring to do this sort of thing - why don't you buy something for a dollar and sell it for two first?

Have you read one of MJs books yet?

I don't know you but this seems like typical dreamer babble talk. I also don't get why you are proposing it as if it is novel when you mention multiple companies already working on chunks of the end-goal. If you are that interested in the topic and not business in general why not just go work at one of those companies?

 

[gabteron]

Besides me thinking people are absolutely insane for aspiring to do this sort of thing - why don't you buy something for a dollar and sell it for two first?

Have you read one of MJs books yet?

Well thank you for your input. But if you told people 20 - 30 years ago that you can enter a sentence into a prompt and have videos come out of it i think they would consider that insane and can give you a lot more examples. I'm just looking at where the technology is heading and have an open mind about it . If that makes me insane, well ok.

Yes I have read the books.
"Why don't you buy something for a dollar and sell it for two first?"
Done that, this is just a lot more fun, and will be a lot more profitable.

 

[heavy_industry]

So why not start thinking about storing and even fully simulating a human mind inside a computer system ?

You're starting from the uncertain premise that the human mind is nothing more than a biological computer that works with data.

We don't have the first F*cking clue what the mind is, what consciousness is, and what life is.

We have no idea.

You can go ahead and build a computer that emulates the mammalian brain, and you can even fill it up with data resembling your current memories, but you have no guarantees that once you "upload" your mind into it, your consciousness will magically transfer into it and leave your body behind.

You will most likely create a synthetic clone of your brain, and "you" will still be "you", in your own body, seeing the world through your own, biological eyes.

"Why don't you buy something for a dollar and sell it for two first?"
Done that, this is just a lot more fun, and will be a lot more profitable.

Great, it means that you will find a meaningful line of work doing scientific research in this field. This type of technology will never be a great business opportunity.

This would be the equivalent of trying to start a modern-day computer chip manufacturing plant. You need billions in funding and an army of PhDs to work for you.

A lot of money involved does not always mean a lot of profit.

History has shown that money was not made by the scientists who made the discoveries, but rather by the people who created useful shit out of it and sold it to the masses.

 

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[gabteron]

You're starting from the uncertain premise that the human mind is nothing more than a biological computer that works with data.

That is exactly what it is.

You can go ahead and build a computer that emulates the mammalian brain, and you can even fill it up with data resembling your current memories, but you have no guarantees that once you "upload" your mind into it, your consciousness will magically transfer into it and leave your body behind.

This doesn't need to be a transfer, of course you will still remain in your body. But more important than that we can have a backup of an entire brain,(much in the same way they freeze people heads), we will know how to make artificial inteligence that works orders of magnitude better than what we have now. For instance how much do you think that the company that can solve self driving cars will be worth?
This would not only solve self driving .. to put it mildly. It's a catch multiple rabbits at once with the same trap, type of thing.

I know the magnitude of the project, I also know it can be started in small steps. And what I'm proposing is a different path to take with AI and neural networks. A more direct path that will eventually lead to mind uploading and inevitably create a lot of "useful shit" along the way. Like self driving cars, actual useful chat and voice bots, and a lot more.

 

[heavy_industry]

I know the magnitude of the project

No, you don't.

The human brain is orders of magnitude more complex than any pathetic computer we can come up with.

Most of neurology is uncharted territory. We basically understand nothing about how or why it works, what is consciousness, or what is life.

Yet here we are talking about "uploading" our consciousness into a rudimentary electronic device that happens to be highly efficient at crunching numbers together.

I also know it can be started in small steps.

Good luck.

And by the way: psychology is not a real science and it tells you nothing about how the brain actually works.

 

[AceVentures]

A computer has much more memory and a lot of processing speed. For example, the maximum rate a human neuron can fire, is about 1000HZ or about 1000 times per second. A typical home PC on the other hand can get to 3,5 GHz that is 3.5 million times faster.

We don't quite know at what scale the organization takes place.

One theory of water for instance recognizes organization at the level of dipole waves within the matrix of water molecules.

In this instance life happens on a quantum spin level.

One more conservative estimate using the fatty tissues of the brain as the medium: The physical speed of information propagation in the mind can be approximated this way:

• Light travels at different speeds in different materials based on the material’s refractive index. The speed of light (photons) in wet fatty tissue like the brain is approximately ~73% of the speed of light in vacuum
• It takes approximately 2.2825 × 10^-10 seconds (228.25 picoseconds) for light to travel 5 cm in human tissue
• The frequency corresponding to this time period, and thus the upper bound of phenomenological refresh if photon interactions are the primary binding agents / mediators of consciousness, is approximately 4.38ghz

What I want to do is start a project that is solely focused on this problem, how to first simulate and store a human mind in a computer system and second how to read a biological mind and transfer that mind in a simulated environment

"Simulate and store a human mind" is a stony baloney idea.

What is a human mind?
What do you mean by store?

Actually step all the way back and start with this question:

What is life?

Don't worry - you won't be able to guess it correctly.

And it's precisely for that matter that you and nobody else can "store a human mind".

Because you can't do what you want if you don't know what you're doing.

And you don't know what you're even talking about.

If you really want to entertain the nature of your reality - you'll likely have better luck doing psychedelics than trying to program a mind onto a GPU.

 

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[RudyR]

What I want to do is start a project that is solely focused on this problem, how to first simulate and store a human mind in a computer system and second how to read a biological mind and transfer that mind in a simulated environment.

This was tried in Star Trek: The Next Generation season 2 episode 6 "The Schizoid Man" (1989), lets just say it didn't end well.

The Schizoid Man (Star Trek: The Next Generation) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Panos Daras]

I love it when people ask crazy questions!

I hope more people would push the barrier of thought the way that you do!

That being said if you want to make money in this lifetime I would 100% NOT go after it.

Unless it becomes your life research project or something that you do for fun and fulfillment.

Current scientific understanding and technology do not support it as a feasible endeavor.
Significant breakthroughs in neuroscience, computing, and our understanding of consciousness are required before mind uploading can become a reality.

So in one sentence:

This 99,999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% CANNOT be done.

It is like building a PC entirely out of wood.

Here are the challenges from ChatGPT using Consensus app if you want to investigate further (AI content Dah!):

1. Technical Limitations: While computers possess greater processing speeds compared to the human brain, replicating the intricacies of neural networks, consciousness, and human experiences in a digital medium is far from current capabilities. The brain's operations are deeply complex, not solely based on processing speed, but also on the intricate ways neurons connect and communicate. Despite advancements in computational power and neural network design, we are still far from understanding, let alone replicating, the full spectrum of human cognitive processes (Swan & Howard, 2012).
2. Understanding of Consciousness: The understanding of human consciousness is incomplete. Translating the subjective experience and consciousness of the human mind to a digital format, assuming such a translation is even fully comprehensible, remains a significant scientific and philosophical challenge. This lack of understanding translates into a significant barrier for mind uploading, as we cannot replicate what we do not fully understand (Hauskeller, 2012).
3. Simulation vs. Duplication: Even if a brain's structural and functional aspects could be perfectly simulated, it's an open question whether such a simulation equates to the original consciousness or merely creates a new, separate entity that behaves similarly. There is no consensus on whether a digital duplicate would actually "be" the same person or just a facsimile (Rothblatt, 2012).
4. Biological Complexities: The human brain's functionality is not only a product of electrical signals but also involves complex biochemical processes, which include hormonal influences, energy variations, and other factors beyond simple electrical activity. Replicating these aspects in a digital environment adds layers of complexity to the feasibility of mind uploading (Fuchs, 2021).

 

[EngineerThis]

Ok so what I’m about to write in this article might sound a bit crazy and out there but considering the recent developments in technology and the general path humanity is currently on, I do consider that what I'm going to speak about will inevitably sooner or later become a reality, maybe even sooner than we think.

So here it is, let’s talk about mind uploading :

Just as a context, my background, is in psychology, computer science and programming, meaning I have a bit of knowledge in these fields.

I was always interested in cutting edge technology and computers, and also interested and fascinated by how our brain works. So, long story short, somehow I managed to go from a major in psychology to being a software developer.

My main motivation for switching to computer science was in fact artificial intelligence and especially mind uploading.

You see all throughout my collage years and after graduating the A.I. and neural networks craze really started to ramp up and got me increasingly curios and motivated about these ideas, so I started to do some research.

How these new artificial neurons work, how computers work, how programming languages work and so on. And what I discovered was a simple yet powerful idea:

A home computer nowadays has 100’s of times more memory and more computing power( speed) than a human brain. And so, why are they still dumb when it comes to what for us are considered relative simple tasks like driving a car or walking or identifying some objects in a picture. The answer is quite simple : algorithms and the way they process information.

A computer has much more memory and a lot of processing speed. For example, the maximum rate a human neuron can fire, is about 1000HZ or about 1000 times per second. A typical home PC on the other hand can get to 3,5 GHz that is 3.5 million times faster.

The main difference is that a computer algorithm processes information in a linear manner and the natural brains interprets information in a parallel manner.

Also, a computer has strict mathematics rules and operates based on digital logic gates that can have either a value of 1 or a 0.

A brain, on the other hand, has structures that computes information in an analog fashion, much like how vinyl record disks work, compared to CDs or DVDs.

On a CD or DVD, the information is stored digitally in 1 and 0 format. Vinyl records store audio information in an analog manner. The sound waves are physically engraved onto the surface of the vinyl disk in a continuous spiral groove.

The differences are quite major in structure, and function, but from what modern neural networks (ChatGPT, MidJourney for example) can do, we see that some “brain” functionality can be replicated on a modern computer. And what I do believe is that all functionality can be replicated.

Even if a computer can’t have the massive parallel processing a human brain has, it can simulate that parallel processing using the massive speed advantage it has over the human brain, remember it’s 3.5 million times faster and even more that.

Also, the examples of what humans can do better than computers are shrinking by the day with new versions of Tesla self-driving, ChatGPT, Sora and countless other AI models. They are proof that we are slowly but surly closing the gap.

So why not start thinking about storing and even fully simulating a human mind inside a computer system ?

For me, it seems like such an obvious path that humanity can take and that would solve a lot of our problems like for instance not dying , a lot of automation on a massive scale and so on, basically bring the next era of technological revolution.

But let’s not get too ahead of ourselves. The most important first question would be, can this actually be done?

Well if we approach the problem from a biological point of view and look at what nature has achieved, we find the same basic principles of neural communication conserved across different animals and insects , ranging from the most simple (Starfish about 500 neurons) to the most complex: Human brain about 90 billion neurons.

Of course, while neurons serve similar functions across different animal species, including insects, there are variations in their structures and functions based on the evolutionary adaptations. The main point here is that we already have a blueprint, a working model. And the model works based on a clearly defined set of biochemical and physical rules.

Rules that can be replicated or better put simulated in a modern computer system. As an example AMD MI300X graphics card has 153 Billion transistor, which of course a transistor is not doing as much as a neuron, but we are already creating structures as complex maybe even more complex than a human brain.

The massive barrier is that we can’t take apart a human brain as easily as a CPU to look inside and see how it is structured. But that can be overcome.


Also, if we look at the specs for a MI300X it has some ridiculous numbers in terms of operations per second, memory and speed that natural brains are just not able to do, so there is a lot of computing power to play with.

Modern neural networks do take advantage of this power but as spectacular as they appear to be, they have substantial shortcomings like needing huge volumes of data to be trained, not being 100% deterministic (aka we don’t know with 100% accuracy what they will do) and we don’t really know exactly how they work.


This is the main problem we are facing: the software is not good enough. Nature has had millions of years to create human and mammalian brains, we have computers for a couple of decades, there are still a lot of improvements to be made.

I do think we have not yet found, or designed algorithms good enough to be able to do what a human brain can do, and I do think some new ways of approaching the problem are needed in order to design systems that are truly useful, safe and reliable.

Now let's come back to mind uploading and the reason I’m writing all this. Simply put, I want to start a deliberate effort in this direction.

Over the years I have done some research on my own but it has become quite obvious this is not a 1-man project.

I know there are various efforts done in this direction like Neuralink , Human brain project, Carboncopies Foundation and a few others. But I feel like some fresh new perspectives are needed and a deliberate, bold effort in that direction.

What I want to do is start a project that is solely focused on this problem, how to first simulate and store a human mind in a computer system and second how to read a biological mind and transfer that mind in a simulated environment.


A project focused more on replicating what nature has already done, since the model is already there. It’s right in front of us and is working spectacularly well. We just need to emulate it on a silicon based substrate instead of a biological one.

I do believe that we already have the technology, the hardware to do the first part, that is to fully simulate and store a human mind. We just need some new creative ways in which we simulate neurons.

The second problem is a bit harder to solve, there are some solutions to it, for instance using devices like what Neuralink has, to read brain activity and then use AI to model the neurons, various imaging techniques and so on. But as difficult of a task it may be, history has shown us, what was once considered impossible or extremely difficult can be made trivial.

Humans for hundreds of years dreamed about the moon even before flight was still a thing and now here we are. What was once just an idea is now part of everyday life. We take huge machines into the sky every day, into the earth’s orbit and beyond.

I know it’s a super ambitious, crazy project but the world we live in, is becoming a bit crazy and yea why the hell not? We are already stumbling in that direction, might as well make it a deliberate and controlled effort.

My question to you all is. How can I get this project started?
From what I have researched, my best bet is on government research programs or some visionary millionaire wiling to fund a high risk, high reward project.

Any advice or feedback would be appreciated, thanks!

We will NEVER be able to transfer consciousness into a machine. “Instrumentality” is sci-fi. It’s against the laws of nature and god. I believe it will be impossible… Not to mention the numerous negative consequences moving down this path brings..

Stick to reality… designing a pink grafix card for gamer girls would be a much better business venture.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

From a Fastlane perspective this can work, even if it is unsuccessful. There are a number of millionaires, billionaires, and many large companies that will:

A) Fund entrepreneurs pursuing anything in this area.
B) Acquire said company if it makes anything even remotely resembling progress.

As a reminder, Walmart invested $150M into Theranos. Rupert Murdock invested $120M+. Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos invested $100M.

Nearly $400M invested into a company that ultimately did not succeed, and was built on a lie. The point is not to build a business on a lie, but that people with a lot of money will and do invest in immortality-related ideas.

Elizabeth Holmes and the Theranos Case: History of a Fraud Scandal

Medical start-up Theranos promised to revolutionise blood tests but customers received wrong diagnoses and investors lost their money.

www.integrityline.com

 

[Aidan04]

Many scientists and philosophers say consciousness doesn't even exist, it's merely a feeling of "continuance" mixed with your prior experiences.

Someday in the far future, we may be able to upload individual synapses and thoughts, but we are light years away from that technology.

We would need breakthroughs in several scientific, medical, and technological fields.

How about you sit down and use your skills to improve someone's life for a profit?

 

[AceVentures]

From a Fastlane perspective this can work, even if it is unsuccessful. There are a number of millionaires, billionaires, and many large companies that will:

A) Fund entrepreneurs pursuing anything in this area.
B) Acquire said company if it makes anything even remotely resembling progress.

As a reminder, Walmart invested $150M into Theranos. Rupert Murdock invested $120M+. Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos invested $100M.

Nearly $400M invested into a company that ultimately did not succeed, and was built on a lie. The point is not to build a business on a lie, but that people with a lot of money will and do invest in immortality-related ideas.

Elizabeth Holmes and the Theranos Case: History of a Fraud Scandal

Medical start-up Theranos promised to revolutionise blood tests but customers received wrong diagnoses and investors lost their money.

www.integrityline.com

Lmao you mean fraud?

 

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[gabteron]

Ok, so as a clarification I did write my post starting from a very basic level and did left out, a lot of details. Some details are intentionally omitted, some just for brevity and some well.. I’ll try to address them here:


So yes from my research and not only the human brain is exactly that: a biological computer , and the processes that make neurons work can be simulated in a computer environment. Furthermore we don’t need to simulate all the molecular processes, that would be most likely impossible. But there are some RELEVANT high level mechanisms that are responsible for how neurons compute information like: transmission of signals , growing or shrinking connections , the myelination process , signaling, propagation and interaction with neurotransmitters.

Sorry but if there are people who think that our brain does some magical voodoo to work like it does either overestimate how the mind works and think we are some super duper beings or just don’t really have a clue about how the brain works.

Again there are a lot of details details I'm leaving out here, both on how computers work and how animal brains work. These explanations would probably take a few books to explain and understand.


We need to look at just how far technology has progressed in the last 20 years, and I can tell you for sure, things are not going to slow down, like we have machines (A.I.) that can draw a perfect photograph in a matter of seconds. A human would take a lot of hours to draw the same picture and would not be at the same quality. And the examples are abundant.

From the advancements in computer power , to A.I. , to advancements in neurobiology , imaging techniques, brain implants and brain computer interfaces. This is exactly the path we are on. I’m just thinking a bit ahead, but sooner or later people will realize that this is our future.

And there is another point I haven’t touched. Yes there is a lot of work to be done in this area but that is only because research here is very difficult because of the “fragile, squishy “ nature of brains, and also we don’t YET have the right tools for this kind of research and also not much effort has gone into it. Yes there are still tons of things we don't know about how brains work. This would be a main focus for this type of project:


Build tools to research better ways to find out how neurons do certain things. And a lot of this research can be simulated on a computer.

If we solve even a percentage of the problems, like how our brain learns, how it forms structures to recognize objects, patterns and so on, this would have a lot of practical applications.

The most basic example: even a bird has excellent navigation, it doesn’t bump into objects can follow a certain path to objects, they can learn etc , If we can replicate even the brain of a bird in a computer a lot o problems would be solved. Things like self driving cars would become a lot more feasible when you have a deterministic , 100% reliable and safe system.

So the business idea and the project can grow from small things like better algorithms for object detection, faster, easier to train, private AI assistant to solving self driving cars to… eventually mind uploading. The key point here is that all these projects have something in common : the basic architecture would be the same, just more layers of complexity added.

This is why it pays in the long term to figure out exactly how nature does things, it would solve a lot more problems with the same technology than to try and solve the problems individually. I don’t know how to explain it better…
Right now what we are doing is a bit like we are trying to invent a new programming language every time we want to "code" a new A.I. application.


Also it’s clear that current neural networks have major flaws.

In most of today neural networks we don’t even know how they compute information and they lack reliability, safety and are super hard to train, the need large amounts of data, for me that is unacceptable.

These neural networks seem to work, but there is a difference between something working well and working inefficiently. Like trying to cross the ocean in a boat when there is also the option of flying.

People have flocked to them because as of right now this is the low-hanging fruit , the low effort path and also computing power has gone exponentially up in the last years and helped things in this regard a bit.

The correct and most rewarding path is to put in the work to figure out the principles behind how natural neurons and brains work that is when we will see true , reality shaking advancements in this field.

Because the most important aspect is this: we already have intelligence, like I said, nature has done it millions of times, in all the species of animals and they all share the same basic functionality. Once we crack that code we don’t need these hard to train, unreliable neural networks we have today.

Even small advancements in this direction will lead to huge gains in the long term. But nobody is doing research in this area because right now there still are some gains to be had with current "learning" algorithms and humans are known to be flocking to the low effort, short term gains.

So yea there is some method to this madness , it’s not something I pulled out of my a$$ one night.

Also, consciousness, is not like a light bulb it’s on or off , it is on a continuum there are degrees of consciousness.

Is a monkey aware of itself , yes they seem to be, it’s a monkey aware that the heating of the earth is done by the sun and that earth is rotating around the sun? Probably not, because it doesn’t even has those concepts. Are we conscious and aware of the interactions at a microscopic level and even quantum level between particles , some people are ( those that work in this field ) some are not.

And also as a fun fact if you want some very interesting perspective into nature of consciousness and how our brain works, try and search the web or better yet some documentaries about feral children.

From Wikipedia: “ A feral child (also called wild child) is a young individual who has lived isolated from human contact from a very young age, with little or no experience of human care, social behavior, or language. “

So some of these kids are behaving exactly like the animals they were raised with, and those who lacked human contact for many years could not learn to speak or interact with humans properly ever again.

There are a lot of conclusions that can be drawn from these unfortunate events, and one very relevant to our case is that the brain is a learning, environment copying “machine”. And we can’t even talk about a “human consciousness” in these cases.

Yet again, this topic is not something I just casually started a conversation about. I have been at it for years studying not only psychology but neurobiology, imaging techniques, computer science, hardware architecture, software development . I made the switch from psychology and went to study computer science on my own for years and become a software developer just for this , to understand how computers work, how programming languages work, how neural networks work and so on .

In all these years I think I just might have grasped the magnitude of this project and the feasibility of it and I can tell you with certainty, right now we have the technology (as in hardware power) to simulate a full human mind if it’s done properly.

The somewhat uncertain and hard part is reading that relevant information from a brain.

Any way you look at it, in the next couple of years things are about to become really interesting, I’m on the side that if we are already going in this direction , might as well make a deliberate, responsible effort to make things as safe, and as reliable as possible.

 

[EngineerThis]

Ok, so as a clarification I did write my post starting from a very basic level and did left out, a lot of details. Some details are intentionally omitted, some just for brevity and some well.. I’ll try to address them here:


So yes from my research the human brain is exactly that: a biological computer , and the processes that make neurons work can be simulated in a computer environment. Furthermore we don’t need to simulate all the molecular processes, that would be most likely impossible. But there are some RELEVANT high level mechanisms that are responsible for how neurons compute information like: transmission of signals , growing or shrinking connections , the myelination process , signaling, propagation and interaction with neurotransmitters.

Sorry but if there are people who think that our brain does some magical voodoo to work like it does either overestimate how the mind works and think we are some super duper beings or just don’t really have a clue about how the brain works.

Again there are a lot of details details I'm leaving out here, both on how computers work and how animal brains work. These explanations would probably take a few books to explain and understand.


We need to look at just how far technology has progressed in the last 20 years, and I can tell you for sure, things are not going to slow down, like we have machines (A.I.) that can draw a perfect photograph in a matter of seconds. A human would take a lot of hours to draw the same picture and would not be at the same quality. And the examples are abundant.

From the advancements in computer power , to A.I. , to advancements in neurobiology , imaging techniques, brain implants and brain computer interfaces. This is exactly the path we are on. I’m just thinking a bit ahead, but sooner or later people will realize that this is our future.

And there is another point I haven’t touched. Yes there is a lot of work to be done in this area but that is only because research here is very difficult because of the “fragile, squishy “ nature of brains, and also we don’t YET have the right tools for this kind of research and also not much effort has gone into it. Yes there are still tons of things we don't know about how brains work. This would be a main focus for this type of project:


Build tools to research better ways to find out how neurons do certain things. And a lot of this research can be simulated on a computer.

If we solve even a percentage of the problems, like how our brain learns, how it forms structures to recognize objects, patterns and so on, this would have a lot of practical applications.

The most basic example: even a bird has excellent navigation, it doesn’t bump into objects can follow a certain path to objects, they can learn etc , If we can replicate even the brain of a bird in a computer a lot o problems would be solved. Things like self driving cars would become a lot more feasible when you have a deterministic , 100% reliable and safe system.

Also it’s clear that current neural networks have major flaws.

In most of today neural networks we don’t even know how they compute information and they lack reliability, safety and are super hard to train, the need large amounts of data, for me that is unacceptable.

These neural networks seem to work, but there is a difference between something working well and working inefficiently. Like trying to cross the ocean in a boat when there is also the option of flying.

People have flocked to them because as of right now this is the low-hanging fruit , the low effort path and also computing power has gone exponentially up in the last years and helped things in this regard a bit.

The correct and most rewarding path is to put in the work to figure out the principles behind how natural neurons and brains work that is when we will see true , reality shaking advancements in this field.

Because the most important aspect is this: we already have intelligence , like I said, nature has done it millions of time, in all the species of animals and they all share the same basic functionality. Once we crack that code we don’t need these hard to train, unreliable neural networks we have today.

Even small advancements in this direction will lead to huge gains in the long term. But nobody is doing research in this area because right now there still are some gains to be had with current "learning" algorithms and humans are known to be flocking to the low effort, short term gains.

So yea there is some method to this madness , it’s not something I pulled out of my a$$ one night.

Also, consciousness, is not like a light bulb it’s on or off , it is on a continuum there are degrees of consciousness.

Is a monkey aware of itself , yes they seem to be, it’s a monkey aware that the heating of the earth is done by the sun and that earth is rotating around the sun? Probably not, because it doesn’t even has those concepts. Are we conscious and aware of the interactions at a microscopic level and even quantum level between particles , some people are ( those that work in this field ) some are not.

And also as a fun fact if you want some very interesting perspective into nature of consciousness and how our brain works, try and search the web or better yet some documentaries about feral children.

From Wikipedia: “ A feral child (also called wild child) is a young individual who has lived isolated from human contact from a very young age, with little or no experience of human care, social behavior, or language. “

So some of these kids are behaving exactly like the animals they were raised with, and those who lacked human contact for many years could not learn to speak or interact with humans properly ever again.

There are a lot of conclusions that can be drawn from these unfortunate events, and one very relevant to our case is that the brain is a learning, environment copying “machine”. And we can’t even talk about a “human consciousness” in these cases.

Yet again, this topic is not something I just casually started a conversation about. I have been at it for years studying not only psychology but neurobiology, imaging techniques, computer science, hardware architecture, software development . I made the switch from psychology and went to study computer science on my own for years and become a software developer just for this , to understand how computers work, how programming languages work, how neural networks work and so on .

In all these years I think I just might have grasped the magnitude of this project and the feasibility of it and I can tell you with certainty, right now we have the technology (as in hardware power) to simulate a full human mind if it’s done properly.

The somewhat uncertain and hard part is reading that relevant information from a brain.

Any way you look at it, in the next couple of years things are about to become really interesting, I’m on the side that if we are already going in this direction , might as well make a deliberate, responsible effort to make things as safe, and as reliable as possible.

If you think you understand how the brain works, I’m not sure if you’re arrogant or ignorant..

 

[gabteron]

If you think you understand how the brain works, I’m not sure if you’re arrogant or ignorant..

You posted this like 4 minutes after i just posted. Pretty sure you did not read the hole thing. I did not said such a thing. In fact I said multiple times that there are a lot of things we still don't understand about the brain.
And sure I'm the ignorant one.

 

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