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While I think rents and property prices are still too high for the living standard of the population here in Lisbon (1 bedroom in a shared house takes half of the minimum wage), the rest is really really cheap.
Was amazed by that too... was looking at prices wondering how people buy a 3BR apt. on local wages there.

Lisbon is in all the "top 10 European cities" lists, so it has to be good, but so far I haven't found that 120k city centre apt. this thread is about. Can you chime in?
 

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Being do some more research as US citizen what are your thoughts on extended stays in Europe, is it difficult to get long term visas? I know there is schengen zone rules which apply to how long you can stay in Schengen zone for an then you need to leave for x # of months before you can come back. Especially with the refugee situation I have to imagine immigration issues are a huge problem in Europe right now, and they will not look kindly on people over staying visas?
 

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Lisbon, Portugal
Lisbon is in all the "top 10 European cities" lists, so it has to be good, but so far I haven't found that 120k city centre apt. this thread is about. Can you chime in?
There is no catch... Historically, the rents have always been high compared to the cost of living. I don't know about property prices compared to rent, but should be the international average. Most people spend more than 50% of their wage just in rent. It's hard to find a 2 bedroom for less than 700€/month, and that's what most people make monthly.

It's still one of the cheapest and nicest places to live in Europe IMO, specially from March to September where it's blue skies and sun almost all days, just not great for RE investment. I don't know any other country capital where you can drive and have a car inside the city and there's no trouble going anywhere.

Also, there's Uber and a carsharing service that is SUPER cheap (30 cents per minute, 10 eur an hour, 30 eur 6 hours: this is driving time, once you park it and unlock it for other users you stop paying (as long as it's in the city center), and you don't have to pay parking, it's already included... I would actually sell my car and use this if I only needed it in the city.

How's Medellin @GlobalWealth ? :D
 
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Was amazed by that too... was looking at prices wondering how people buy a 3BR apt. on local wages there.

Lisbon is in all the "top 10 European cities" lists, so it has to be good, but so far I haven't found that 120k city centre apt. this thread is about. Can you chime in?
You really need to juat go there and meet face to face with a local real estate agent. Most stuff you see online in English is targeted at foreigners. You want local pricing.

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There is no catch... Historically, the rents have always been high compared to the cost of living. I don't know about property prices compared to rent, but should be the international average. Most people spend more than 50% of their wage just in rent. It's hard to find a 2 bedroom for less than 700€/month, and that's what most people make monthly.

It's still one of the cheapest and nicest places to live in Europe IMO, specially from March to September where it's blue skies and sun almost all days, just not great for RE investment. I don't know any other country capital where you can drive and have a car inside the city and there's no trouble going anywhere.

Also, there's Uber and a carsharing service that is SUPER cheap (30 cents per minute, 10 eur an hour, 30 eur 6 hours: this is driving time, once you park it and unlock it for other users you stop paying (as long as it's in the city center), and you don't have to pay parking, it's already included... I would actually sell my car and use this if I only needed it in the city.

How's Medellin @GlobalWealth ? :D
Medellin is incredible. I am reluctantly leaving tomorrow. Its really nice, perfect weather, ridiculously cheap cost of living, very low property prices, very friendly people. Oh....and the women are not horrible on the eyes.

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I think this thread can use some concrete info.

@GlobalWealth: is this an example of a good search?

http://casa.sapo.pt/Apartamentos/T0-ate-T2/Lisboa/Santa-Maria-Maior/Venda/?sa=11&gp=100000
  • I google translated "buy apartment /city/" to the target language (here: Portuguese)
  • Googled the translated words to find (one of) the leading local real estate website(s)
  • Googled the districts of the city to determine prime locations. Compared to AirBnB listings (location, booking rate).
  • Searched for 0-2 bedroom apts, €0-€100k in prime locations.
Going there in person will yield more results, but is the above valuable to get a feel for pricing?
 
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Just a quick update for those interested. I just came back from Medellin, Colombia. My impressions of Medellin are very good.

Perfect weather, great food, great energy/vibe, big entrepreneurial community, huge digital nomad community, friendly people, beautiful women, and ridiculously low cost of living.

My 45 minute Uber ride from the airport to my apartment cost $21. The next morning a buddy and I went to breakfast, egg omelets, coffee, bottled water for both of us - $7 total. Uber ride in the city 10 minutes to a buddy's place - $2. Coffee (Colombia has the best coffee in the world) at a high end cafe - $1.50. Normal price dinner at mid price restaurant - $10-12.

Real estate prices are seriously low. One year ago 1800 COP (Colombian pesos) = $1usd. Now it is 3400 COP = $1. Colombian economy, and thus COP is closely correlated to the price of oil as they are a fairly large producer. When oil prices return to anywhere close to $40 or $50, the COP will correct up towards 1800/$ again.

In other words, if you buy a place for COP340,000,000 ($100,000), and the COP returns to 1800/$, your place is now worth $190,000, even if the Colombian property market stayed flat in COP terms.

I looked at a few apartments while there to get a feel for the market. For example, a really nice 2BR/2BA 1500ft2 penthouse apartment in the center of the city in the best neighborhood was selling for $115,000. It could easily rent for $1500/month. That is a 16% cap rate. Even if you rented short term, stayed there yourself part time, and rented the rest, you could easily manage a NCY (net cash yield) of 8%, which big upside and a really cool place to spend time.

Downsides for Medellin. The biggest one I can see is the (wrong) negative media perception as being an unsafe place. I was out late at night alone and saw many single women walking alone on the streets as well. If it were unsafe, I seriously doubt I would have seen that many single women walking alone at night (enter your jokes here). Seriously, I had no issues and felt perfectly safe. Safer in fact than many big US cities.

Language. You will need to learn Spanish. Only 4% of all Colombians speak English. Traffic sucks. It really sucks. If I needed to commute to a job, this may be enough to make me less interested. Luckily, like me, most of you interested in this lifestyle or foreign investment aren't looking for local jobs.

Feel free to ask questions.
 
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Considering this thread is about combining investing and adding to your quality of life:

Does anyone have experience with the Canary Isles? (aka islands with the most moderate climate in the world).
 

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@MichaelGrey, what would you like to know? I'll be going there (Tenerife) soon for vacation and to get a feel for possible real estate opportunities.
 
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@MichaelGrey, what would you like to know? I'll be going there (Tenerife) soon for vacation and to get a feel for possible real estate opportunities.
Talk about coincidence.

I have a cousin who moved to Tenerife a couple years ago and was planning on visiting come summer to do some homework. He works at a hotel so I figure it can be a valuable source of info.
Gran Canaria is also on my list (climate seems a tad better, also lots of things to do). I've seen some small properties on AirBnB with stunning views and decent rates and occupancy.

Going in order to get a feel for how things would work if I bought a place there. What type of properties are you looking it? You can PM me or reply here.

Michael
 
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Absolutely brilliant thread @GlobalWealth. Reps given!

This is the direction I've been wanting to move in for a few years now - this thread really resonates with me. I've been looking at Montenegro, Panama and New Zealand. NZ is a long term plan (buy a farm there for some income diversity, set it up as high-end farmstay accommodation for additional income when I'm not around).

Panama is slipping from my "to buy" list though as it's damn expensive for what it is. Buying an apartment in Panama City could be the pay off of the century if the place does turn into a Central American Singapore, but as it stands prices are ridiculous for the standard of the country (opinion only).

I'm looking for somewhere slightly warmer for when I'm over the mountain Winters, hence Montenegro. Lots to learn and my fear steps in before I get too serious, but this is the year for massive change. If I take a trip to that part of the world, do you recommend checking out Croatia too, anywhere else in the region? I'm not expecting you to do the research for me, just interested in areas to begin looking.
 

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Absolutely brilliant thread @GlobalWealth. Reps given!

This is the direction I've been wanting to move in for a few years now - this thread really resonates with me. I've been looking at Montenegro, Panama and New Zealand. NZ is a long term plan (buy a farm there for some income diversity, set it up as high-end farmstay accommodation for additional income when I'm not around).

Panama is slipping from my "to buy" list though as it's damn expensive for what it is. Buying an apartment in Panama City could be the pay off of the century if the place does turn into a Central American Singapore, but as it stands prices are ridiculous for the standard of the country (opinion only).

I'm looking for somewhere slightly warmer for when I'm over the mountain Winters, hence Montenegro. Lots to learn and my fear steps in before I get too serious, but this is the year for massive change. If I take a trip to that part of the world, do you recommend checking out Croatia too, anywhere else in the region? I'm not expecting you to do the research for me, just interested in areas to begin looking.
Read above about Colombia. Highly recommended.

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Actually, a question on tax. I don't need to know *your* specifics, but a hypothetical would help.

If someone has properties all around the world and only one AirBNB account, how would they split that up into tax returns for multiple countries? Or do they declare it only in the country that they are resident?
 
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Actually, a question on tax. I don't need to know *your* specifics, but a hypothetical would help.

If someone has properties all around the world and only one AirBNB account, how would they split that up into tax returns for multiple countries? Or do they declare it only in the country that they are resident?
You are required to voluntarily report income associated with each country.

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I really liked Colombia when I was there in September but as you mentioned learning Spanish really is a must, I had a hard time communicating my Spanish is elementary at best. I was in Cartagena another great city, but that's more of a tourist destination but I feel you could make some good money renting out short term. The food was excellent as you mentioned, and the woman are very beautiful if that's a concern ha ha.
 
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If you search for the location on AirBnB, make your search revisions (eg: 2 bedroom, whole apartment), then paste that URL into Import.io, you can export the data to CSV.
What do you do once you have the CSV? Make it visual with a graph?
 

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What do you do once you have the CSV? Make it visual with a graph?
I was using it to find the median price. I guess the benefit of data is that you can do a lot with it.

At this point in time it looks as though there is no way to scrape the availability calendar.
 
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I've been working on my own spreadsheets, trying to systemize this process.

I stumbled across https://www.import.io

If you search for the location on AirBnB, make your search revisions (eg: 2 bedroom, whole apartment), then paste that URL into Import.io, you can export the data to CSV.
Great find. Thanks.

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Anyone tried already leasing it long term and make the markup on short term renting via AirBnB?

In tourist areas you often get quite a good discount when you rent long term and you would still make a hefty % ROI each month and don't have your cash sitting in the property and free to rent a few more. That's how a fellow entrepreneur did it, started with one and now after 6 months got several properties and makes $10k+ net profit each month.

All of them are in the same city and he hired a crew to do all the cleaning/maintenance stuff. Cost for rent around $10k and the rest around $2-3k. So he makes nearly a 100% ROI each and every month. Also nearly completely passive income after the setup.

Need to make my own calculations soon, how I can achieve it in Europe. Currently I'm thinking about this idea to start it lean. I would lease an App in an eastern European country, with the right math behind it. Live in it and then start renting it out. When I get enough ROI for the first one each month, buy the next in the same city and live there, then do the same over and over again and when you have enough cashflow outsource everything and start the same in a new city. Could work, need to calculate everything over the next days.

Anyone looked into SEA for potential cities, something like Thailand, Bali etc?
 
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Anyone tried already leasing it long term and make the markup on short term renting via AirBnB?

In tourist areas you often get quite a good discount when you rent long term and you would still make a hefty % ROI each month and don't have your cash sitting in the property and free to rent a few more. That's how a fellow entrepreneur did it, started with one and now after 6 months got several properties and makes $10k+ net profit each month.

All of them are in the same city and he hired a crew to do all the cleaning/maintenance stuff. Cost for rent around $10k and the rest around $2-3k. So he makes nearly a 100% ROI each and every month. Also nearly completely passive income after the setup.

Need to make my own calculations soon, how I can achieve it in Europe. Currently I'm thinking about this idea to start it lean. I would lease an App in an eastern European country, with the right math behind it. Live in it and then start renting it out. When I get enough ROI for the first one each month, buy the next in the same city and live there, then do the same over and over again and when you have enough cashflow outsource everything and start the same in a new city. Could work, need to calculate everything over the next days.

Anyone looked into SEA for potential cities, something like Thailand, Bali etc?
I have considered it here in Latvia. It can be very lucrative with little upfront cash and low risk.

Finding a landlord willing to allow subletting may be a challenge but that stuff can be a negotiating point.

I have looked at a few apartments here but so far no go on allowing sublets.

If I were here all the time I am certain I could make it work but I travel a lot and my PM cannot make those types of decisions.

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I have considered it here in Latvia. It can be very lucrative with little upfront cash and low risk.

Finding a landlord willing to allow subletting may be a challenge but that stuff can be a negotiating point.

I have looked at a few apartments here but so far no go on allowing sublets.

If I were here all the time I am certain I could make it work but I travel a lot and my PM cannot make those types of decisions.

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Yeah, for this type of business it would be mostly good to have some local partner in it, who can manage most of the things and expand the business, while you are away. He does it with 2 other business partners and at least one of them is all the time around. They recently bought again 3 new Apt. in LA and have a turnover of 24h now, with their own decorator, who does everything for them. They only focus now on getting the right deals and put the listings up and all the rest is passive basically.

Will try to do the math on Canary Islands, dunno if they are any good deals. But I researched the market recently a lot, as I want to move there over the winter. Found some websites where I can get luxury Arp. with min. 12 months rent quite cheap. Lets see if the numbers add up.
 
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Will try to do the math on Canary Islands, dunno if they are any good deals. But I researched the market recently a lot, as I want to move there over the winter. Found some websites where I can get luxury Arp. with min. 12 months rent quite cheap. Lets see if the numbers add up.
PM'd you, would love to exchange ideas! Just read your last posts and (as you can read in my other posts) I'm planning on letting/subletting on AirBnB. I'm eyeing the Canary Isles: I have a cousin who has been living/working on Tenerife for years and I believe I could set something up.
 

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I spent a week on Tenerife last month. While I didn't look specifically into prices and places to rent or buy, I do have some general insights about the island as I also went there to learn if it should stay on my radar for a possible future investment:
  • the southern part of the island is sunnier and warmer, so most tourists go there. However, in my opinion it's super ugly. Since there are few trees there, it's also windier than the northern part (by northern I mean the region nearby Santa Cruz de Tenerife, not Icod de Los Vinos). Personally I wouldn't like to have a place there. It's full of tourists, horrible resort towns and all the worst you can expect from mass tourism. It might be a good business decision to have a place for rent in such a region, but not a good lifestyle decision (at least not for me) if you want to spend a part of a year there.
  • the northern part of the island is much more beautiful and while the weather isn't as great (there's much more rain and it's colder even by a few degrees Celsius), I felt much more comfortable there. Santa Cruz de Tenerife is a beautiful city, and it's very well connected with the rest of the island. The cities and towns nearby are also nice, and definitely much nicer than all the ugly resort towns in the south. It's also the biggest city on the island, so the best shopping and culture is there.
  • Tenerife, and primarily its northern part, isn't really that warm in March/April (22-23 degrees Celsius during the day), which means that it can be below 20 degrees during winter. It's still warmer than the south of mainland Spain, and the island is so diverse that you can switch climates within 30 minutes. However, if you're looking for a super warm place to escape winter, Tenerife (and other Canary Islands) isn't it. Don't get me wrong, it's still much better than mainland Europe, but during the winter months don't expect to wear only shorts and a t-shirt (or at least not every single day).
  • I wouldn't consider the region around Icod de Los Vinos at all investment-wise. It's the coldest part of the island, and while it's very green and beautiful, as a tourist I wouldn't like to spend time there during the winter (if it's 15 degrees Celsius during the day in April there, it's a warm day; temperatures drop below 10 degrees if it's raining). It's also difficult and takes a lot of time to access other parts of the island from there (while it's easy from Santa Cruz and surrounding places).
  • After my visit there, I'm not entirely sure I would like to invest there. I don't think you would have a problem renting out the place in the south. However, if you're like me and you're not into spending your time in a resort town, then you'd have to look for a place in the north. It would probably be more difficult to make a good return on your investment with a place to rent in the northern part of the island. Most people who read about Tenerife learn that the southern part is much sunnier and warmer, so they go there. I'm pretty sure there's much less demand for places to rent in the more beautiful, but colder northern part most of the sun-deprived tourists overlook.
  • Last but not least, Tenerife IMO isn't really a beach destination. If you love black sand beaches, then okay - you'll probably enjoy it. However, there aren't that many great beaches as you probably think (I personally couldn't stand all the ugly commercialized beaches in the south while enjoyed the wild, undeveloped beaches of the north). In my opinion, Tenerife is primarily a hiking destination. If you're into beaches, go to Fuerteventura and its endless stretches of natural yellow sand beaches.
 
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I spent a week on Tenerife last month. While I didn't look specifically into prices and places to rent or buy, I do have some general insights about the island as I also went there to learn if it should stay on my radar for a possible future investment:
  • the southern part of the island is sunnier and warmer, so most tourists go there. However, in my opinion it's super ugly. Since there are few trees there, it's also windier than the northern part (by northern I mean the region nearby Santa Cruz de Tenerife, not Icod de Los Vinos). Personally I wouldn't like to have a place there. It's full of tourists, horrible resort towns and all the worst you can expect from mass tourism. It might be a good business decision to have a place for rent in such a region, but not a good lifestyle decision (at least not for me) if you want to spend a part of a year there.
  • the northern part of the island is much more beautiful and while the weather isn't as great (there's much more rain and it's colder even by a few degrees Celsius), I felt much more comfortable there. Santa Cruz de Tenerife is a beautiful city, and it's very well connected with the rest of the island. The cities and towns nearby are also nice, and definitely much nicer than all the ugly resort towns in the south. It's also the biggest city on the island, so the best shopping and culture is there.
  • Tenerife, and primarily its northern part, isn't really that warm in March/April (22-23 degrees Celsius during the day), which means that it can be below 20 degrees during winter. It's still warmer than the south of mainland Spain, and the island is so diverse that you can switch climates within 30 minutes. However, if you're looking for a super warm place to escape winter, Tenerife (and other Canary Islands) isn't it. Don't get me wrong, it's still much better than mainland Europe, but during the winter months don't expect to wear only shorts and a t-shirt (or at least not every single day).
  • I wouldn't consider the region around Icod de Los Vinos at all investment-wise. It's the coldest part of the island, and while it's very green and beautiful, as a tourist I wouldn't like to spend time there during the winter (if it's 15 degrees Celsius during the day in April there, it's a warm day; temperatures drop below 10 degrees if it's raining). It's also difficult and takes a lot of time to access other parts of the island from there (while it's easy from Santa Cruz and surrounding places).
  • After my visit there, I'm not entirely sure I would like to invest there. I don't think you would have a problem renting out the place in the south. However, if you're like me and you're not into spending your time in a resort town, then you'd have to look for a place in the north. It would probably be more difficult to make a good return on your investment with a place to rent in the northern part of the island. Most people who read about Tenerife learn that the southern part is much sunnier and warmer, so they go there. I'm pretty sure there's much less demand for places to rent in the more beautiful, but colder northern part most of the sun-deprived tourists overlook.
  • Last but not least, Tenerife IMO isn't really a beach destination. If you love black sand beaches, then okay - you'll probably enjoy it. However, there aren't that many great beaches as you probably think (I personally couldn't stand all the ugly commercialized beaches in the south while enjoyed the wild, undeveloped beaches of the north). In my opinion, Tenerife is primarily a hiking destination. If you're into beaches, go to Fuerteventura and its endless stretches of natural yellow sand beaches.
Great info. Have you been to Gran Canaria too? It seems it has the best climate of all the islands, sand beaches and the most variety in landscape.
 

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I haven't been there. As far as I know it's similar to Tenerife in many aspects. The sunnier and warmer southern part is the touristy part (resorts everywhere), the colder and rainier northern part is the "local" part. Temperatures are pretty much the same on Tenerife and Gran Canaria, but Tenerife gives you more diversity (due to Teide).

Out of all the islands, I think that Tenerife and Gran Canaria are the best choices because of variety and accessibility (while still offering quieter places like the northern part of Tenerife).

Fuerteventura is windy (I dislike windy places) and very dry, but has the best beaches of the archipelago.

La Palma is beautiful and perfect for hiking but much colder and rainier than other islands.

La Gomera is off the beaten path (no direct flights from mainland Europe), so might not be the best investment choice as it's relatively hard to get there. I've read it's a very nice place, though (also northern colder part and southern warmer part, but much fewer tourists).

El Hierro is very small, hard to get to and doesn't really have anything exceptional except for scuba diving.

Lanzarote has some nice beaches, but it's too dry for my liking and looks like a big wasteland.

In the end, it all depends on how often you'd like to visit and who is your target visitor. If you'd rather offer a premium experience for people who don't mind getting off the beaten path, then La Palma and La Gomera might also be good choices.
 

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@GlobalWealth, have you heard about anyone investing in houses in more secluded places to appeal to a different type of a tourist? Do you think it could work or is it crucial to get a place in a central location?

Also, what is your process of looking for a property manager? Do you just go to the top real estate companies and ask? I guess it's key to find somebody you can trust as you can't really control what's happening on a daily basis and a few bad reviews can ruin your profile on Airbnb.

And just curious: do you offer welcome baskets to guests? As a guest, I always think it's a nice touch (and actually started expecting it in each place) but it obviously adds to expenses, plus somebody has to go to the store and buy it.
 
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@GlobalWealth, have you heard about anyone investing in houses in more secluded places to appeal to a different type of a tourist? Do you think it could work or is it crucial to get a place in a central location?

Also, what is your process of looking for a property manager? Do you just go to the top real estate companies and ask? I guess it's key to find somebody you can trust as you can't really control what's happening on a daily basis and a few bad reviews can ruin your profile on Airbnb.

And just curious: do you offer welcome baskets to guests? As a guest, I always think it's a nice touch (and actually started expecting it in each place) but it obviously adds to expenses, plus somebody has to go to the store and buy it.
I have seen remote vacation properties for short term rental. I am sure it can be done but just like in any real estate investment - location is critically important. If you find some property that gets a lot of tourists but remote I am sure it can work.

As for pm's. You do whatever it takes to find someone you trust. That is key. Ask around with locals. Meet some real estate agents. Stay at some airbnbs and talk to other owners. It requires work. No real formula here.

We don't really do baskets but we do leave the place stock with some food essentials like coffee, tea, condiments, etc.


@GlobalWealth, have you heard about anyone investing in houses in more secluded places to appeal to a different type of a tourist? Do you think it could work or is it crucial to get a place in a central location?

Also, what is your process of looking for a property manager? Do you just go to the top real estate companies and ask? I guess it's key to find somebody you can trust as you can't really control what's happening on a daily basis and a few bad reviews can ruin your profile on Airbnb.

And just curious: do you offer welcome baskets to guests? As a guest, I always think it's a nice touch (and actually started expecting it in each place) but it obviously adds to expenses, plus somebody has to go to the store and buy it.

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Thanks, @GlobalWealth. I'm looking at some opportunities in the Canary Islands so I guess that remote should be fine in this case due to the high number of tourists coming pretty much all year round.
 

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