Is India a non time sensitive culture?

[Flatlander]

I've been dealing with this guy from India and everything is always, "By the end of business today," which I've learned means, "Maybe next week, maybe the week after that. Maybe."

Here in America when we say, "By the end of business today," that is taken to mean by 5 pm or so, not the next day and certainly not a week or two in the future.

So I'm wondering if I'm dealing with a lazy bastard OR is that just how things are done in India? I can deal with the latter but if he's just screwing off then I'll escalate the matter. So do people in India view time differently than most Americans?

 

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[AJ.]

I don't have experience with India and their culture to comment, yet I think you can 'escalate' the matter and get what you want.

Be overly polite, and let them know they're dropping the ball.

I find that if one flies off the bat when escalating matters, the higher-up people receiving the eMail will think "Well, obviously this person is not easy to work with."

Yet, if you send an overly polite eMail, the higher-up people receiving the eMail think "There is no way this person has done wrong... obviously, we are at fault."

I once had a reservation at a Hilton hotel for 3 days.
I wanted to shift the reservation to two days in the future (with over a month of anticipation).
The hotel staff, and the managers told me it wasn't possible.

So, I sent a superbly written letter to two Hilton head quarters (I think one department was "Customer Relations" and the other I can't remember).
In my letter I explained how it was a shame that the hotel chain "the great Conrad Hilton started" wasn't acommodating* guests.
The punch line was, I told them we wouldn't be staying at their hotel the given date, and that they could keep the money "and maybe spend it in some customer service courses".
I received replies from both departments in Hilton Corp, and a call from one of the managers that previously had told me it couldn't be done.
They changed the date.
We stayed at the hotel... with a nice fruit basket in our room.

Good luck!

*Wow... apparently, "accommodate" and "acommodate" are both correctly spelled. =\

 

[Flatlander]

Well I've been polite for a while now, but I wouldn't send a rude email, I just plan on talking to his boss if necessary. I hate to rat someone out so it is a last resort to me. At the same time, this is literally a 10 minute job that he promised would be done a long time ago.

So far my emails have been like...

Hi _______,

Just checking to see how this is coming along, thanks.

Rich

I never get a reply and when I call the guy a day or two later he gives me the "end of business today" line. It's getting old.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I had two projects outsourced to India and know exactly what you are talking about. BTW, both projects where miserable failures and a waste of my money, and my time. While the developers had rave reviews, their work wasn't up to the quality I demanded -- absolutely NO attention to detail and yes, "By the end of the day" which meant another 2 weeks.

 

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[Flatlander]

I had two projects outsourced to India and know exactly what you are talking about. BTW, both projects where miserable failures and a waste of my money, and my time. While the developers had rave reviews, their work wasn't up to the quality I demanded -- absolutely NO attention to detail and yes, "By the end of the day" which meant another 2 weeks.

Okay, thanks, dang it anyway. I'll give him one more day then I'll hit up his boss and see if that helps.

 

[dkt91]

I've worked a lot with companies from India and I can really relate to what you're writing, Flatlander. A "I'll send you the finished work tonight" or "We'll be done by the end of this week" doesn't mean anything.

I think I've read once that this has to do with the fact that Asian cultures have a different time perception than western cultures. Therefore you're not necessarily dealing with lazy people but with people who have not (yet) adapted completely (and probably never will adapt) to the way we perceive time in the western world.

What usually works quite well are small (!) bonus payments you're giving them if they manage to finish a task until a defined date. Talking to the boss will most likely work as well but this is not the first option you want to choose if you'd like to have a good employer-contractor relationship.

Hope this helps!

 

[MikeC]

I too have had terrible experiences with outsourcing to India.

Every time I did so the work ended up taking twice as long as it would've had I done it myself, and then I had to pay them. Never again.

 

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[FxInvestor]

I agree with DK, punctuality is not something you will find in South East Asian countries. Delays are expected and normal, however what you are facing is not. Perhaps the guy is just plain lazy, he needs someone to kick his backside.

I wouldnt put Japan, Korea in the same category though, they operate at the other end of the spectrum. They probably plan out their exact time of birth before they are born.

I think Indians handle Indians well and it might speed up things if you took it up with this boss.

That being said, it is unfortunate that lot of people have issues with work outsourced to India. But outsourcing to India and other Asian countries means trying to get same quality work done at lower cost. And there are plenty of companies doing a phenomenal job considering what they are getting paid.

Just to give an example : There is content writing being outsourced to India where they are expected to write like "Native writers" (whatever that means), at something like 1.5$ per 500 word articles. And they have no problem paying 10-75$ for the same from a "Native Writer". Where is the motivation for them to get something done at the same level?

Same with BPO services where Multi billion dollar companies outsource work to India and Phillipines with the expectation of saving millions of dollars for themselves.They are training Indians to talk in American accents. It is hilarious though watching them do it. They are trying to fake it till they make it.

Anyway, the point is that there are cultural, geographical, linguistic and other issues that one needs to consider.

I am not making excuses for the guy. But you have given just half the story. If it needs to be sorted out, just do it.

I still work with several Americans, Europeans, till date work has been above mark and on time. I guess that might be because I have spent most of my adult life being abroad.

 

[Neon]

I will tell you something I've learned outsourcing to India (which by they way, I won't do again).

There is very much a culture of appeasement and ego. What I mean by that is that every person I've worked with seems to tell you whatever they THINK you WANT to hear whether it's true or not.

"Oh yes, sir! We can have the application completely coded by Friday!"

In reality, they have no idea what they are doing or any schedule for completion.

When they get really stuck and you call them on it- they tend to simply stop communicating with you and vanish leaving the project incomplete.

If you go to a place like Rentacoder you will see some of the top Indian firms simply bid on EVERY project regardless of their experience.

The only time I had a quick turnaround with good communication from an Indian coder it turned out the whole thing was copyrighted code and we had to scrap it all.

For coding at least I've had much better work with people from areas like Eastern Europe. You'll pay more but they are brutally honest ("no that would be stupid- here's the right way to do that") and actually know what they are doing. In my personal experience their business sensibilities are more in line with what most of us would expect, they are blunt and do good work.

 

[jbar]

It's a very sad fact but true. I was born in India raised in the States. I have a company that imports products from overseas and everyone asks me why I don't buy from India instead of China, Korea and Taiwan. My answer is that India will promise the world and say they can deliver. They'll maybe do it the first time but when something goes wrong it's always your fault somehow. Or they will find something else to blame it on. It's never their fault. This is not the case with my other overseas vendors. They will take the blame and make things right (most of the time).

The only good vendor experience I've had in India was from a printing press. But that was my cousin's company.

I think the attitude in India will eventually change but it will take them some time for them to realize that they can't take jobs and people for granted.

 

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[kwerner]

:iagree:
Totally agree with what the others have said here; don't waste your time / money outsourcing projects to India.

They're a pain in the arse and it's not worth trying to stay up until 4 AM (because of the time differential) to Skype them and re-re-re-explain what it is you need them to do.

 

[Nicola]

I wonder if it is something about being in India? Or working for "westerners"?

I ask because over here (UK) Indians who live and work here are stereotyped as being hard workers.

There is a rather racist joke that illustrates the point:

Why are Indians bad at football

Because every time they are awarded a corner they open a shop on it!

Corner shops (I think Americans would call them something like Mom & Pop neighborhood stores) are known to be long hours and hard work to run.

I also wonder if it might be a language problem - perhaps over there "end of the business day" means something else?

It may be a cultural difference, in that your e-mails are too "friendly", so he thinks you are Ok with delays, and he doesn't realise you are not happy.

My suggestion for dealing with the guy is simply be firm, clear and no nonsense. Try an e-mail which says something like:

You have had ample opportunity to complete this work, and missed many deadlines that you have promised yourself. if this work is not completed by 16:00 Indian time (find the right time zone info), then I will have to escalate this matter to your superior.


I have no real idea though so take my advice with as much salt as you require! I have never outsourced anything to India, and never really worked with an Indian (to my knowledge) So I am just giving you a few thoughts and ideas to consider.

Hope that helps

 

[Flatlander]

Just got the email saying it is done, unfortunately, it is only half done. sigh.

 

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[Flatlander]

Oh, btw, thanks for the input everyone. I can't wait forever for this project to be done so I think I'm going to cut him loose and try something else.

 

[FxInvestor]

Trying to justify this would be like trying to act innocent when caught red handed!

Just unfortunate comments, some legitimate and some just down right "what the heck are you talking about"?.

I am sure there are so many out there who have benefited tremendously from outsourced work to India.
Where the heck are they when you need them..lol?

Too bad India is getting such a bad rep, not good for business.
Anyway, I do hope some of you get the opportunity to change your opinion. Surely, you cannot categorize 1Billion people just under one category.

 

[marvin_etc]

Yes, it is...just to scratch the surface.

 

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