High MPG Cars

[Runum]

Have you noticed the MPG of cars? I see that the popular push now is hybrid cars. I see that in 2007 the highest MPG rating for a hybrid car was the Honda Civic with 50 mpg combined. That's good mpg but I used to own a Geo Metro that got 50 mpg and it was far less sophisticated. It didn't require multiple batteries and it was simple to repair. It was powered by a 3 cyl Suzuki engine and a 5 speed trans. The cost was substantially less that anything hybrid being sold today.
Compare Hybrid Cars

Also, when hybrid technology was being researched and introduced, didn't the people promoting hybrid technology throw out mpg numbers closer to 70 mpg? What happened?

The other push is high mpg diesels. Great. Didn't they have a high mpg VW Jetta diesel around the beginning of this decade? Wasn't it advertised over 50 mpg?
2000 VW Jetta TDI - 2000 Volkswagen Jetta - Epinions.com

My point is that I am all for high mpg. But shouldn't current technology be able to yield us more mpg than the old technology of just about 10 years ago? Seems to me that we are not making any progress in mpg. Instead we are paying more for more complex cars that don't get better mileage.

What do you think?

 

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[Bilgefisher]

Chevy volt came out this year 100mpg. What doesn't make sense to me is why they held back the technology so long. It takes longer then 1 year of high gas prices to see such a drastic change in mpg. Technology is fast, but not that fast. Also the way I understand it, all previous hybrids had very long wait lists. Wouldn't that make a manufacturer want to produce more. I know there has to be some variable in this equation I am missing.

 

[Eric]

My first car was a 89 chevy sprint. Same 1.0L 3cyl as the metro, the only problem was the power. it had something like 50-60hp and a 0-60 time of about a week.

It takes fuel to make power.

When I started reading your post, I immediately thought of the jetta diesel! Only problem with that car is, its a diesel and they aren't exactly the cleanest cars on the planet. With the strict emissions nowadays, the auto makers have to do something to clean them up.

the 2008 jetta diesel has bluetech technology which cuts down on nitrogen oxides and still gets 45+mpg. Last I heard, they are legal in 45 states.

I don't know why VW does not advertise this in the commercials! Maybe because they aren't allowed in 5 states? Dont know.. but IMO its a huge selling point.

 

[Bilgefisher]

FYI

The Model T had a front mounted, 177 |in3 (2.9 L) four-cylinder en bloc motor (that is, all four in one block, as common now, rather than in individual castings, as common then) producing 20.2 hp (15 kW) for a top speed of 40-45 mph (64-72 km/h). The small four cylinder engine was known for its L heads. According to Ford Motor, the Model T had fuel economy on the order of 13 to 21 mpg (5 to 9 kilometres per litre or 11.1 to 18.7 litres per 100 km).[7] The engine was capable of running on gasoline or ethanol,[8][9] though the decreasing cost of gasoline and the later introduction of Prohibition in the United States made ethanol an impractical fuel.

- Wikipedia

 

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[yveskleinsky]

I don't get why most people just don't go out and buy a 2004 or so Honda Civic. The MPG is great, the car will last you around 250k miles+ and you can pick one up for under $7k.

A new Prius will run ya around $23k, Honda around $7k. Difference in MPG is minimal.

...There's something to be said for a cost/benefit analysis here.

 

[AroundTheWorld]

Yea... I drove a Jetta in the 90's and got about 50 MPG. (It was a diesel).
I drive a Jetta now and get 25.

Hmmm.

 

[Allthingznew]

In the 70's a friend of my dad's bought a Cadillac, (70's + Cadillac = gas hog) and he always got great gas mileage, way above average. At some point in the first year of ownership he took the car to the Cadillac dealer for something, and when he got it back the gas mileage sucked. After a little research, he found that he had been sold a car with a "test" carburetor and that it had been missing, until he drove in with it. That's his story anyway.

I also understand that Europeans have cars with much better gas mileage than we do, and I seem to recall once hearing about Sally Jesse Rafael not being allowed to import a vehicle that got 70 mpg back in the 80's, who knows if that's true or not.

Take it with a grain of salt.

 

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[Bilgefisher]

Its funny you mention that. My buddy had a silverado. Was having issues with the catalytic converter. Punched them out and got great gas mileage afterwards. I have never done the calculations, but I wonder the difference of CO and CO2 put into the air with cats vs the better gas mileage without them.

 

[JesseO]

I had a 1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse with the 1.8L 4 banger and it got literally 45 MPG highway! Now I drive a 1995 Toyota Avalon V6 and get 28 MPG highway. I really want a 1989 CRX with the tiny engine and 1600lb weight. Great gas mileage comes from small engines, light weight, and aerodynamics. I should post a link to the 50 MPG Renault that was modified with a supercharger and different aerodynamics...

 

[wildambitions]

My 2003 Mitsubishi DE Coup gets about 38 mpg. But it is really a noisy vehicle. We had a GEO Metro back in the early 90's and yes it did get 50 mpg or better. Where did those go?

 

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[Bilgefisher]

In looking up an older car my buddy drove. (Subaru Justy) I found that 2008 mpg estimates are actually different and lower then previous years. This may actually explain why we are all seeing somewhat lower numbers now.

2008 Fuel Economy Tests

They have a short video that explains is fairly well. I guess the old rating system was devised in the 60's for 55mph, few accessories, little to no ac and less rapid acceleration.

 

[hatterasguy]

My 87 300SDL does about 23mpg around town, and will hit 30 on a highway trip. My friends 1999 E300D will do high 20's around town and low to mid 30's on the highway. These cars are very old technoligy, big and heavy.

Mercedes Enthusiast just tested the new C220CDI and that returned 48mpg, which is about 40mpg US since the Brit's use imperial gallons.

So for 40MPG I can get a RWD C class Mercedes with all the bells and whistles, screw hybrids. Or for 10mpg less I can get an E320CDI which is larger.

It simply is crazy that we continue to try to outlaw diesels in this country. Ford's new diesel Focus will do 65mpg, but we can't get it in this country.

If Americans knew all the good very high MPG cars in Europe that we can't get over here they would revolt. There is no good reason on Earth why you shouldn't be able to go out and get a proper mid sized family sedan that will get 35mpg all day long, except that the EPA and CA want's to get rid of diesels.

 

[Russ H]

AllThingsNew and Bilgefisher-

I grew up in Detroit, and was living there in the 1970s, when emissions stuff first began going on cars.

There was a BOOMING business amongst the locals to strip the clean air stuff off of the cars, as removing the cat converters, exhaust gas recirculators, and other things improved the miles per gallon by like 30-40% (no lie).

So a 13 mpg car would get well over 20 mpg as soon as you removed the emissions controls.

My 2000 Excursion gets sucky mileage (12 city, 14 highway), but it's output is freaky-- there is almost no CO, or other particulates. Ford over-engineered the beast since it was so un PC to come out w/such a big, heavy vehicle.

I use it as a pick up truck, w/a built on cap (picked up over 1000# of tile in it today, hauled 5 sinks and a vanity cab in it yesterday, etc), so this doesn't bother me.

It does crack me up when I see an old VW w/bumper stickers talking about gas guzzlers. I own a few VWs, so I know how crappy the emissions are (I have the smog tests, passed within legal limits, to prove it). I can drive my Excursion about 40-50 miles before it pollutes the air as much as driving one of my VWs down to the corner store and back (about a mile).

Interesting discussion. I'd say that today's hybrids are much more "peppy" and have amenities like AC and power windows and auto trans, where the high mpg cars of yesteryear had slower acceleration, manual everything, and no air conditioning.

Yves has it right, though-- if your primary concern is mpg, go ahead and get an old Honda CRX HF. Awesome mileage, cheap to fix, and they run forever.

-Russ H.

 

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[JesseO]

I think that was the car I was talking about

 

[Allthingznew]

I think gas has an impact on mileage too. I had an 89 Celica and drove from California to Colorado so I started with California gas and had gas from each state in between. I found I'd get the best gas mileage off the tanks of gas I'd get in Nevada. Must have been their mix.

 

[Luke12321]

My 2003 Mitsubishi DE Coup gets about 38 mpg. But it is really a noisy vehicle. We had a GEO Metro back in the early 90's and yes it did get 50 mpg or better. Where did those go?

Wildambitions, the DE Coup....referring to the Mirage? I had one of them in high school (a 98 model). It was a good car and never gave me any problems. I have a Eclipse GT now that is v6 24 valve so it doesn't get great. I did slow down a bit and see how high I could get it (without cutting the motor off going down hills and such) and I got around 32mpg (with very little highway driving). Normal driving, would be high 20's.

 

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[RaceDriver]

Part of the trouble with hybrids is the weight. The energy density (kW/lb) is FAR lower with batteries than with ethanol or gasoline. In order to make REALLY efficient hybrids, we will need to develop batteries that are far lighter than the current technologies.

Meanwhile, my Triumph 955 gets better gas mileage than any car I know of, is easier to park, and out-performs almost any high-performance car.