Have you ever outsource to India?

[canadiangal]

I am thinking of getting a website up soon. I have considered using the service of a local freelancer but also thought of using a development firm in India.
What do you think about using freelancers in India rather than local web developpers?
I am thinking of a price comparison, but also quality, performance, ect.
Thanks,
Canadiangal

 

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[James Fake]

Depends on what you are needing done. Anything that takes more than 20 hours; I would say keep it local or somewhere else: Phillipines, etc.

The biggest thing you'll find with Indians is there is a big cultural difference when it comes to work ethic. And also a poor communication language barrier. Even if they speak English, their accent is so strong that it makes it very hard to understand.

 

[canadiangal]

Needs to get a website up, but it may be a little more work than just basic pages. They are charging 1500$. Is this reasonable? What kind of site would cost that much, especially built from scratch? Am I being ripped off?
I have seen websites at 350$ on flippa. The more established ones were more expensive.
Other than the heavy accent, are they reliable? do they do good jobs? I have never worked with them, that's why I am asking.
And where do I find freelancers from the Philipines?

 

[mmmoney]

I had a very bad experience couple of years back when I outsourced a project to an Indian company I found through a freelance website.

1. they tried to con me into buying a project they downloaded off the internet(they were so lazy that they did not even try to hide it by customizing the layout etc.)when I confronted them they acted surprised and lied to me that their developer used code from an old project he had done
2. none of the features I asked were in the project they showed me
3. did not communicate well
4. kept pushing deadlines

fortunately I was using the websites escrow service and did not lose any money,but I did lose time and eventually my investors backed out of the project

that being said I cant really judge all of them based on this as I have also heard good thing from other about their outsourced projects to India.

whoever you outsource to ensure the following

1. cheapest is not always the best
2. if possible get references from others
3. if possible get references from the developers and follow up with them
4. check their rating on the freelance website
5. always make your terms and conditions clear i.e. your project requirements,payment etc.
6. call them if possible and have a quick chat before awarding them the project

that's all I can think of right now

If your website is just a little more than few basic pages in my opinion $1500 is a rip off.

 

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[BeachBoy]

I have bought a groupon replica not long ago from an indian company.

yes it works, but it is very "unclean" code... they have hacked the template files while a clean way would have allowed to update the ecommerce platform, which will be quite hard with their modifications. I had to hack the code even more to remove/change stuff as a lot was hardcoded instead of being available from the control panel.

for the price, it gave our project a very big jumpstart (no the project is not a groupon copy, but there is a coupon part of the site). It has probably cut two months of development, and because we need a pilot before aiming for a $20mil investment, it is worth the expense.

We'll definitely code something better with a north american company once/if we get the funding.

 

[cashflow3000]

Needs to get a website up, but it may be a little more work than just basic pages. They are charging 1500$. Is this reasonable? What kind of site would cost that much, especially built from scratch? Am I being ripped off?
I have seen websites at 350$ on flippa. The more established ones were more expensive.
Other than the heavy accent, are they reliable? do they do good jobs? I have never worked with them, that's why I am asking.
And where do I find freelancers from the Philipines?

Hey Canadiangal -

I suggest you put your project up for bid on Odesk.

For the price you are paying you could well end up with an American!

Also, you can find good workers from Philippines there.

Good luck!

 

[canadiangal]

how much did you pay for the groupon replica?

 

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[BeachBoy]

~$500
if you have no clue about scripts (php) I would not advise it as it's not very easy to tailor afterwards.

 

[university007]

I've dealt with two indian companies..and both were terrible experiences. Cheap doesn't mean anything when you end up wasting so much time sending review points and just trying to get them on the same page as you. Time is money and dayum..you lose SO much time dealing with outsourced indian companies. It seems they are also starting to learn how to fraud people as well, as I feel my last transaction, I was being deceived. When I confronted him about it, with HARD proof that he was lying to me, he never admitted to it. Luckily american express is the absolute best and I won't be losing my money. But what a waste of time...

@Beachboy - this groupon project - was it a groupon grabbing script that the indian company offered? If so, can you please PM me. I'm curious as to whether it's the same individuals...

 

[canadiangal]

We agreed on 2000$ for 2 sites. I guess I got ripped off :-(

 

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[kwerner]

We agreed on 2000$ for 2 sites. I guess I got ripped off :-(

Where did you find this company, and did you get multiple, competitive, bids on the project before committing to them?

 

[BeachBoy]

@Beachboy - this groupon project - was it a groupon grabbing script that the indian company offered? If so, can you please PM me. I'm curious as to whether it's the same individuals...

no it was a clone of groupon, based on magento e-commerce. Basically, hacking the templates and some of the scripts to make a website that can do coupon deals (coupons that you create or the merchants creates).

the coupons are only 20% of my project's site but it's quite huge to build from scratch so I'm glad we skipped that for the first trial.

 

[domular]

I use oDesk and have had much better luck with people in the Philippians.

 

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[FastNAwesome]

I am thinking of getting a website up soon. I have considered using the service of a local freelancer but also thought of using a development firm in India.
What do you think about using freelancers in India rather than local web developpers?
I am thinking of a price comparison, but also quality, performance, ect.

Well if dilemma is India or local, let me solve it for you right now - go local.

Of all the countries I don't know why so many people have a view that outsourcing = India.

In general, with all due respect to professionals, here's what to expect:

The cultural difference is huge, the way of operating extremely inefficient - you'll talk to one person, another person will do the work, and they'll get back to you in about 2 days with something that works, but the code likely can be pure trash.

It's also very hard getting constructive feedback, they're very polite and you can write whatever you want, they'll "Yes Sir" you.
If you're not happy they'll politely say yes and fix what you asked for, but you'll again wait for it, and likely again end up with suboptimal solution.

Needs to get a website up, but it may be a little more work than just basic pages. They are charging 1500$. Is this reasonable? What kind of site would cost that much, especially built from scratch? Am I being ripped off?

Depends on who you work with (different hourly rate) and what needs to be done (sometimes what seems like not a big deal to client, is in fact very hard and serious work, and vice versa ). It also depends HOW it's done. Things can just work, or can work and be secure, scalable etc.

Cannot be told without at least a little more description of the project. But if it is indeed as you say just a little bit above few basic pages, it's ripoff definitely, even if you work locally.

 

[James Fake]

and this (thread) my friends is the perfect example why I am building Freelanceful.

He wouldn't have gotten ripped off if he had this whole discussion thread prior to him awarding his project beforehand. He would of had the knowledge and advice in the Q&A section (feature of Freelanceful) before he would of ever started getting bids so he would know what and what not to do.

 

[canadiangal]

I have placed the ad on Odesk after Cashflow3000 suggested it.
I have received a few bids already, much lower than the 1500$ the other guy was asking for.
But most of them are from India still, except from one who is from the Phillipines.
I hate to judge people based on where they are from, but I am just afraid of sending the money and not getting the job done, or getting something of poor quality.
I have heard of bad stories where people would not receive the product/service for which they paid.
But Shell outsources in India, many electricity, oil and gas companies outsource to India;but not with individuals.
Although people may have a company registered, they may still be the only person working there.
This guy, who is charging 1500$ has called me on skype like 100 times since yesterday, trying to get me to pay the third of the project cost in advance. I don't like that.
He is planning to use Joomla or Magento and needs 20 days. He promised to build the site from scratch, no clones. The guy from the phillipines plans to use php and css, mysql and charge me close to 700$ for a week worth of work.

Not sure which road to take... india, phillipines, canada, usa or what?
The risk I see with Canada or usa is one: someone reproducing my idea for themselves. Most people are business minded....

 

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[canadiangal]

Cannot be told without at least a little more description of the project. But if it is indeed as you say just a little bit above few basic pages, it's ripoff definitely, even if you work locally.

It is a Classified website. Is that not basic when you think of all the templates available?

 

[canadiangal]

and this (thread) my friends is the perfect example why I am building Freelanceful.

He wouldn't have gotten ripped off if he had this whole discussion thread prior to him awarding his project beforehand. He would of had the knowledge and advice in the Q&A section (feature of Freelanceful) before he would of ever started getting bids so he would know what and what not to do.

Keep up the good work.
But freelanceful isn't working yet, right? Is it kind of like Odesk?

 

[FastNAwesome]

I hate to judge people based on where they are from, but I am just afraid of sending the money and not getting the job done, or getting something of poor quality.

Most outsourcing sites offer to secure funds, so that you don't pay until you get a quality product that is promised, but also so that you cannot withdraw money if worker done the job right.

But Shell outsources in India, many electricity, oil and gas companies outsource to India;but not with individuals.

Exactly.

This guy, who is charging 1500$ has called me on skype like 100 times since yesterday, trying to get me to pay the third of the project cost in advance. I don't like that.

Run! Run away while you can. This is not what professionals do, especially those in demand.

He is planning to use Joomla or Magento and needs 20 days

Run I said. Run. This is an amateur!

The risk I see with Canada or usa is one: someone reproducing my idea for themselves. Most people are business minded....

Not necessarily, some people are programmers, they do programs. Unless you're planning something not seen yet, no need to worry. Everything is out there already.

It is a Classified website. Is that not basic when you think of all the templates available?

I didn't have a need to use templates for this, so can't tell how good they are. But yes, in this case $1500 price can be realistic, or maybe even more depending on exact specifics.

It's not just about making it work, it's about keeping it work when your site becomes very visited, it's about dealing with spammers and other users who don't behave as you planned etc.

PH guy sounds most realistic in both price and the way he'd do it.

 

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[mmmoney]

Not sure which road to take... india, phillipines, canada, usa or what?
The risk I see with Canada or usa is one: someone reproducing my idea for themselves. Most people are business minded....

canadiangal , most of the time I do not care about this ,

they can steal your idea but they can't steal your vision and passion for it

which makes a big difference to the success of your project

 

[domular]

Not sure which road to take... india, phillipines, canada, usa or what?
The risk I see with Canada or usa is one: someone reproducing my idea for themselves. Most people are business minded....

If most people were business minded places like oDesk wouldn't exist.

Let me tell you a story. I went to a Stompernet Live conference. At the time to be part of Stompernet you paid close to a thousand dollars a month to be part of Stompernet which has online coaching, live help desk, free conferences, etc - it's changed since this conference occured. I got to go because I subscribed to the magazine and they opened the conference if you wanted to pay to get in so I did.

Now there were over 700 people there. So one of the speakers got up and asked "how many have made your 1st hundred online" almost every hand went up.

"How many have made over a thousand in the last year" Surprisingly a noticible number of hands went down.

"How many made over $5,000 in the last year" at this point about half the hands were down.

"How many have made $10,000" by now only about 25% were left.

"$50,000" the hands up were getting thin.

"$100,000" there were about 20 hands left

"$500,000" maybe 10

" A million or over" you could count them on one hand.

Now this was a crowd of over 700 people who mostly paid over $10,000 a year to be part of this program. Most people weren't even making enough to cover the cost to be members.

At that moment I relieved how rare online success is, for that matter any business success.

It's all a fricken facade. If you think most people are doing better than you, you're wrong.

Go take a look at how many people join this site every day. Then look at how many people post and respond on this site - it's a very, very small percentage.

 

[KevMoDee]

I used Odesk to hire an Indian to design my website for under $1K. It worked out well for me and others in this forum, but as with anything else, beware of scammers.

Edit: Also wanted to comment on the whole "stealing of ideas" issue addressed earlier. As Thomas Edison once said, success is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration (perspiration of his giant lab of employees mind you). But those of the mindset of stealing ideas for the easy score, rarely have the constitution necessary to make the idea work and become successful in the long term.

 

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[Upncomer]

I have had several experiences with programmers from India and the most common issue I ran across has been a broker pretends to be a programmer bidding on my project and then they hire a less experienced person in india that may or may not even speak english. This is probably the case with your guy calling 100 times. He wants the job to resell.
I'd have to agree with the others and say try to stay away from India.
I'd also make it clear in your project that you want the person bidding to do the project, and
No SUBCONTRACTING will be permitted.
This will also make it easier when communicating changes or areas of concern later into the project.
I've worked with a few great programmers form Phillipines.

 

[^eagle^]

I worked with a guy form Indonesia and the work was sloppy and not completed in a timely manner. I tried to do a smaller project with him later outside of the freelance website I was using and he ripped me off. Not a lot but enough to make me not trust him again. Still looking for a REAL MQL4 expert. Looked at an american company thats much more professional but also more expensive maybe two to three times more. But time keeps eating away so I may take the plunge with a little more research. great thread.

 

[Don Dano]

I dont agree with staying away from India. Not long ago I started a Magento outsourcing company in India. I did this because I read TMF and because I knew that the people I would hire from the start were good at their job. If anybody has any questions I am willing to help.

 

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[smarty]

Other than the heavy accent, are they reliable? do they do good jobs? I have never worked with them, that's why I am asking.
And where do I find freelancers from the Philipines?

You have to go by trial and error until you find some reliable person. Go on http://odesk.com and make your job posting stating you will only consider applicants from Philippines if you will.
Basically I don't agree at all with people who say India is bad or Philippines is bad. I am from Albania and while many people might perceive Albania as bad country (mass-media BS, or bad personal experiences in the past), my oDesk feedback is awesome. Yet, sometimes things in life are not going too well and I just have a desire to drop all projects and take a vacation. As far as I am concerned India has some pretty good programmers and then there are some sloppy lazy a$$ bad boys who ruin it all

 

[Esquire]

I've had very good results.

The key for me has been fourfold:

(1) I sought out referrals from other people doing what I do. I was not going to hire anyone at random. The referrals were spot on. The guy I chose to run with does excellent work.

(2) Be exceptionally clear with your instructions. Use visual guides whenever possible (this is critical). Leave nothing to chance. Then test test test. My programmer might not get it right the first time every time -- but he does get it right every time. Snag-it is an excellent program (btw) for creating easy-to-use screen captures and visual guides.

(3) Check up on him. He might not tell you (right away) if he is running into problems -- but you need to know if he does. Otherwise, your project might get held up on account of a feature that (in the big picture) is not that important. If he has a problem you need to be prepared to brainstorm a possible alternative solution or cut your losses and move on. I learned this one the hard way. Delays tied to a couple of small features set me back several months. Suffice to say, I won't let this mistake happen again. I'm always communicating.

(4) Break your jobs into several smaller jobs and make him compete with other programmers for your business. Let them know you appreciate what they do ... but never let them get too comfortable. Another benefit of doing it this way is you can test them out. Give them a simple set of tasks ... and see how they do. Then gradually increase the difficulty of the tasks. Keep testing. Don't ask them to do something complicated right out of the gate. Take it in steps. Plus ... if something happens to your preferred programmer, you know which programmers were (legitimately) competitive (on time and price), and which programmers were positioned to rip you off. Need to have a Plan B.

Fast ...? Nope. Would an American have been faster ...? I don't know. But it would definitely have been far more expensive.

 

[stranger]

Some years, I hired a skilled programer from India a few times and a bad copywriter.

Now, my freelancer team is from different countries like the UK, the USA, India and the Ukraine. I hope i'm on the right way now.

 

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[Don Dano]

Excuse me for my English, I am a native Dutch speaker (The Netherlands)

I have worked for Outsourcing companies in Ukraine, Moldova and India.

This is my advice about Indian developers:

1) Check for referrals and previous projects.
2) Make sure he has worked with Western companies in the past (USA or Europe). I always prefer to have people who have worked and lived in Western countries for a period.
3) Make sure you speak to the main developer or team-leader on skype (face to face).
4) If you have doubts about his skills. Provide a analytic and/or small coding test.
5) Give clear instructions. It is your plan and your project. Don't depend on him to fill in your execution. Taking bold initiatives or risks is just not in the Indian culture.
6) Communicate regulary!! This is very important. Even if it is chatting for 5 minutes. Always communicate. (daily if possible)
7) Every day he should send you an E-mail telling you what he accomplished during the day and what he is going to do the next day.
8) Be aware of cultural differences. If there are problems, it is up to you to notice this and to fix it.

About pricing: There is always room for negotiation. See what their asking price is and deduct at least 25% from it.
A simple magento community template webshop, should never cost more than $1500.

 

[smarty]

I've had very good results.

The key for me has been fourfold:

(1) I sought out referrals from other people doing what I do. I was not going to hire anyone at random. The referrals were spot on. The guy I chose to run with does excellent work.

(2) Be exceptionally clear with your instructions. Use visual guides whenever possible (this is critical). Leave nothing to chance. Then test test test. My programmer might not get it right the first time every time -- but he does get it right every time. Snag-it is an excellent program (btw) for creating easy-to-use screen captures and visual guides.

(3) Check up on him. He might not tell you (right away) if he is running into problems -- but you need to know if he does. Otherwise, your project might get held up on account of a feature that (in the big picture) is not that important. If he has a problem you need to be prepared to brainstorm a possible alternative solution or cut your losses and move on. I learned this one the hard way. Delays tied to a couple of small features set me back several months. Suffice to say, I won't let this mistake happen again. I'm always communicating.

(4) Break your jobs into several smaller jobs and make him compete with other programmers for your business. Let them know you appreciate what they do ... but never let them get too comfortable. Another benefit of doing it this way is you can test them out. Give them a simple set of tasks ... and see how they do. Then gradually increase the difficulty of the tasks. Keep testing. Don't ask them to do something complicated right out of the gate. Take it in steps. Plus ... if something happens to your preferred programmer, you know which programmers were (legitimately) competitive (on time and price), and which programmers were positioned to rip you off. Need to have a Plan B.

Fast ...? Nope. Would an American have been faster ...? I don't know. But it would definitely have been far more expensive.

This advice is spot on. And by the way this is exactly what a programmer needs to do excellent job. (I'm a programmer myself) Follow it!