France - 75% tax for high earners!

[Lgallion]

Besides the people getting hit with this high tax (listen closely and you can hear the wooshing sound of money & people leaving France), the drag effect on the rest population/economy is pretty evident too. One of the first things I noticed when visiting Belgium was that people don't go above & beyond at work. Why should they? Try to succeed above the average and you get slammed by tax, meanwhile the lower/middle levels of living are pretty comfortable. It is a recipe for personal mediocrity and lower economic performance.

 

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[Stridone]

Yes, just go for the good old ad hominem so you don't have to respond to any of my arguments. I've been respectful and am always willing to consider other viewpoints (discussion is also means of educating eachother, right?), the same can not be expected from this immature duo apparently.

 

[socaldude]

:locked:

 

[Brander]

and 75% is simply robbery.

If I steal only the wallet in your car it's not robbery, but if I steal your entire car it is?

Our society is built upon tax payers money

Our society is built on people's productivity, innovation and entrepreneurship. As long as those are impeded most people are poor, the INSIDERS with connections are rich. I was living for 16 years under pure communism and people living under at least semi-free markets have no idea what they are talking about when they speak of socialism or communism - 0% experience, 100% parroting propaganda.

coming from a relatively "poor" family, would not have been able to pay for schooling and medical care if not for our awesome "socialist" system here in the Netherlands.

Of course because there is no competition among schools and prices are therefore stratospheric, that only the government can "pay". And it shows you have been educated in "public" (government) schools, as have I. Some see through it, most don't.

None of you were ever taught that there were a plethora of different schooling options just a hundred years ago. School was cheap, even college (ask your grandparents), with a summer job a student covered the entire year of college. Why? There was competition amongst schools for your personal educational dollar. There were schools for the poor, the rich and everything in between.

The poorest of the poor went to schools where older students in higher years taught younger students in lower years, all voluntarily and got paid for it. Was it perfect? No, but you HAD A CHOICE, now you don't. Of course schools ramp up their tuition costs when the government "pays" for tuition - they are not spending their own money, but other people's, so who cares how much it costs and colleges lobby for the government to pay for even more stuff - more money for the colleges.
It's the same in your country it's just that the costs are hidden in high taxes.

Schools in the Netherlands are as much if not more expensive then those in the US. At least in the US they are still a bit naive and and they charge for their schools or the government or private entities give you loans for schooling. In your country other people pay for your school (and the government wastes the other 50% on overhead) - the ones working and the ones not even born yet.

Now you could be fine with that arrangement (especially if it's not you who's paying) and love to give money to the government to spend however they wish, however some other people might not be so enthusiastic about this arrangement (especially the ones that mostly pay for it) no matter what they say publicly.

There's a principle involved that we were all taught when we were 3 years old - don't hit, don't lie, don't steal, but were then as adults taught to forget it - hitting, lying and stealing is a "social good" if it's done by some organized group calling themselves "government". Morality then seizes to exist, it's only for children and "civilians".

Anyway this is my last post on this matter as any further and it'll be a political discussion leading to exactly nowhere.

Some HUMOUR to calm the passions

Doug Stanhope on Kings, Queens and Royalty in general:
[video=youtube;WpMHRkIkjWY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpMHRkIkjWY[/video]

 

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[AlasdairM]

29%-Canada

Add approx. 50% of this 29% for Canada for the provincial tax rate (varies by province). So the real top tax rate in Canada is about 45%.

 

[Stridone]

If I steal only the wallet in your car it's not robbery, but if I steal your entire car it is?

You view it as stealing, I view it as an act of solidarity towards your fellow countrymen. And an investment, so to speak. The well-educated people you hire, for example, might not have been able to afford their education if not for government support. On a sidenote, the highest tax bracket in the Netherlands is a bit too high I think, but we all know there's plenty of tax loopholes when you have the money. It will never come down to an actual 52% of your income.

Our society is built on people's productivity, innovation and entrepreneurship. As long as those are impeded most people are poor, the INSIDERS with connections are rich. I was living for 16 years under pure communism and people living under at least semi-free markets have no idea what they are talking about when they speak of socialism or communism - 0% experience, 100% parroting propaganda.

I agree with your first sentence, but thinking a completely non-regulated market would not result in huge differences between the poor and the rich is simple naive. Such a society is what resulted in the birth of the Communist Manifesto in the first place, people where abused by those who already had all the capital and there was virtually no way to move up if you were born poor.

Of course because there is no competition among schools and prices are therefore stratospheric, that only the government can "pay". And it shows you have been educated in "public" (government) schools, as have I. Some see through it, most don't.

The Netherlands is a very different country than you think. We are lightyears ahead in terms of education, and prices are not as high as you might think. Also, all schools here are "public" in some sense, but that doesn't mean the curriculum is not objective. My viewpoints are purely based on my own readings and experiences, not my formal education.

None of you were ever taught that there were a plethora of different schooling options just a hundred years ago. School was cheap, even college (ask your grandparents), with a summer job a student covered the entire year of college. Why? There was competition amongst schools for your personal educational dollar. There were schools for the poor, the rich and everything in between.

The poorest of the poor went to schools where older students in higher years taught younger students in lower years, all voluntarily and got paid for it. Was it perfect? No, but you HAD A CHOICE, now you don't. Of course schools ramp up their tuition costs when the government "pays" for tuition - they are not spending their own money, but other people's, so who cares how much it costs and colleges lobby for the government to pay for even more stuff - more money for the colleges.
It's the same in your country it's just that the costs are hidden in high taxes.

School is still cheap here because we don't allow educational costs to balloon like in the US. There is still plenty of competition amongst schools because it's a small country and many schools have similar degrees, but the competition is in the field of educational quality: they all strive to be the best. And the "poor schools" scenario is ridiculous, you really think education would be of acceptable quality in those poor schools, especially compared to the richer ones? Everyone should be able to get the same education, success in life should be based on your own hard work and not some gigantic headstart you got because your parents had more money.

Schools in the Netherlands are as much if not more expensive then those in the US. At least in the US they are still a bit naive and and they charge for their schools or the government or private entities give you loans for schooling. In your country other people pay for your school (and the government wastes the other 50% on overhead) - the ones working and the ones not even born yet.

You're very much wrong about that, we pay for our own education. College students are able to get a cheap government loan however, as we see education as an investment in the future rather than a burden. We invest in students now so they can be more succesful in the future and thus be more productive etc. for the country. And it has worked very well since we are one of the most succesful knowledge-based economies with a very high GDP per capita.

Now you could be fine with that arrangement (especially if it's not you who's paying) and love to give money to the government to spend however they wish, however some other people might not be so enthusiastic about this arrangement (especially the ones that mostly pay for it) no matter what they say publicly.

The government should never be able to "spend however they wish", and political parties who think they should have never been very succesful here.

 

[Vigilante]

Kak... I joined you on the ignore on this one. There is something amazingly liberating about that function. There's only 2 people I have ever ignored on this forum, and probably not coincidentally both are kids! Anyway...

 

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[Kak]

Kak... I joined you on the ignore on this one. There is something amazingly liberating about that function. There's only 2 people I have ever ignored on this forum, and probably not coincidentally both are kids! Anyway...

Lol what else did he say because I didnt see it. No wait dont tell me...

 

[santa]

I'm sorry for starting this thread now- but I guess when discussing things like taxes and asset protection it's easy for things to end on a slippery slope into politics and become emotive.
Originally I posted it because as entrepreneurs and want to be entrepreneurs it's things we have to consider.

@Stridone - please ignore some of the pettiness and rudeness you've had thrown your way by some here for having a view that they disagree with (Kak and Vigilante). I think just like we often lament other comments on articles/blogs for having slowlane mentalities (even on this topic-I've read other sites with comments like; "yeah tax the rich 75%! thats the way it should be blablabla" and arguing and accusing anyone that disagrees with this), there's going to be some on business forums like this who do the exact same thing the other way.

It might be worth locking this topic and moving on. And if I was a moderater here I'd have words with two "respected" members of the forum and the behaviour they've shown here, but I'm not-though I've learnt some valuable reminders here

 

[Kak]

This message is hidden because santa is on your ignore list.
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You people are going to piss me off to no end. It is just blatant, utter, stupidity. I can't handle it.

Wait until you are running a business and see if the government is still your friend or if it is your single largest enemy.

 

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[PatrickP]

Whenever I see santas posts I honestly think of hot chocolate and Christmas cookies.

Ok back to the thread subject.

 

[santa]

Bringing this back marginally on less direct political lines- I was talking to a US friend of mine about this. He said there, unlike France, you actually have to give a tax return and pay a contribution every year no matter where in the world you are. Is that right?
He said if similar happened it would actually be harder as you'd have to renounce your citizenship and possibly pay exit fees to.

I think most here would argee with Mike39's post on page 1- bloated government, "legally corrupt" crony capitalism seem to have just got bigger (and/or we're more aware of it) over the years in the modern western world. Without going into what we'd like to happen - I wonder what will actually happen over the next 20-50-80 years

You people are going to piss me off to no end. It is just blatant, utter, stupidity. I can't handle it.

Wait until you are running a business and see if the government is still your friend or if it is your single largest enemy.

You can't see this I'm guessing, but the irony is I actually agree with a fair % of the foundations your views are based on, but find your manner abhorent. If you're not careful you will end up on my naughty list this year. You don't want that-as I'll create a lobbyinig group that funds politicians to create special laws and new taxes on just you and fritter that money on bureaucracy.

Whenever I see santas posts I honestly think of hot chocolate and Christmas cookies.

 

[Pinnacle]

Dude i gaurentee the majority of americans would support this exact ledgislation.

We have a fundemental people problem in this country. Its not obama or congress, it is the people who think that obama is a good idea. This is why I have an exit strategy and already have some of the connections in place. Our people problems dont just go away with a different president.

This is why politicians are not the real leaders; voters are.

 

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[Kak]

Bringing this back marginally on less direct political lines- I was talking to a US friend of mine about this. He said there, unlike France, you actually have to give a tax return and pay a contribution every year no matter where in the world you are. Is that right?
He said if similar happened it would actually be harder as you'd have to renounce your citizenship and possibly pay exit fees to.

I think most here would argee with Mike39's post on page 1- bloated government, "legally corrupt" crony capitalism seem to have just got bigger (and/or we're more aware of it) over the years in the modern western world. Without going into what we'd like to happen - I wonder what will actually happen over the next 20-50-80 years



You can't see this I'm guessing, but the irony is I actually agree with a fair % of the foundations your views are based on, but find your manner abhorent. If you're not careful you will end up on my naughty list this year. You don't want that-as I'll create a lobbyinig group that funds politicians to create special laws and new taxes on just you and fritter that money on bureaucracy.

Ok I peeked... Maybe I was a little over the top. Renouncing would be the plan as I am very close to also being an Italian citizen. Now I know they have a worse tax structure than the US, but the important thing is that they do not tax on foreign sourced income. So if I made money while living in the Caymans, Panama or wherever, Italy would not tax me. Also I would be able to return to the US as an Italian almost as much as I like and I can even own property there (which may or may not let me even establish residency as a foreign national) but then I am paying US taxes again. I don't really see the need for US citizenship if I am planning to live abroad.

 

[The-J]

I think it's natural for people who own their own enterprises to be pissed at the amount that governments all over the world expect them to pay. I mean, we start our own businesses, we do the hard work, and the government expects a cut for doing F*ck-all for us? Business owners are simply more inclined to desire a fully privatized system: private healthcare, private education, private law enforcement (okay maybe that's pushing it) because they've done the work, now they've won certain things.

It gets political when people start commenting on that line of thinking; whether it is fundamentally flawed, only slightly flawed or perfectly reasonable and just. Political leanings are nothing more than schools of thought, are they not? It's like religion. I chose my beliefs and I don't try to justify them because those are the beliefs I chose for myself, no matter who says it's wrong.

When people start talking about taxes, their uses, and how much governments should be entitled to vs. what people should be entitled to, it gets political. Certain people on this forum (not gonna name any names, although we all know who we are) simply move into their political beliefs when discussing things like this, and they go in strong.

Due to this, I propose that this thread be closed. We know entrepreneurs like taxes much less than the average joe. Let's instead talk about methods to reduce our tax burden, places to live and incorporate, things like that, instead of what we believe taxes should be.

 

[OnePerCent]

You view it as stealing, I view it as an act of solidarity towards your fellow countrymen. And an investment, so to speak. The well-educated people you hire, for example, might not have been able to afford their education if not for government support. On a sidenote, the highest tax bracket in the Netherlands is a bit too high I think, but we all know there's plenty of tax loopholes when you have the money. It will never come down to an actual 52% of your income.

As I have already written a democratic country shouldn't tax citizens over 30%, this is the price to make the government machine work, all the government machine (health, education, roads, military, "lazy employees", and so on).
I don't pay taxes as "an act of solidarity", I lived in a bad country and now I think about my bad neighbors all living on government checks declaring fake family issues, I should have paid taxes to make them die.

I don't pay taxes as "an act of investment", because I could invest that money in my businesses with a far better ROI (financial and human).

Success is not a secret, success is a system, I have lived my childhood and puberty in a shit hole in a poor family. Now I am rich only for my brain, my vision and for my kicking a$$ will not for the shit that governments tried to give me.

 

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[theDarkness]

You people are going to piss me off to no end. It is just blatant, utter, stupidity. I can't handle it.

Wait until you are running a business and see if the government is still your friend or if it is your single largest enemy.

If you're ignoring someone, ignore them and move on. This quoting the ignored post stuff is only a way of making a scene out of it, imo.

 

[FastNAwesome]

there is nothing wrong with progressive taxing

There is everything wrong with this!

It's punishing success, and it's discrimination.

I could bust each sentence in that post, but can't waste time.

 

[Sveke]

I'm a financial planner and it's really easy to take action now and use investment vehicles that will provide hundreds of thousands of dollars a year of tax free income in the future and completely take future income tax and legislative liability off the table. I do it all the time with my clients.

The government could raise taxes as high as they want, you won't be effected. Period.

Call your advisor and tell him you want an investment vehicle that is tax deferred annually and tax free upon withdrawal.

If he or she doesn't know how to do it, call another advisor.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

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[Kak]

I'm a financial planner and it's really easy to take action now and use investment vehicles that will provide hundreds of thousands of dollars a year of tax free income in the future and completely take future income tax and legislative liability off the table. I do it all the time with my clients.

The government could raise taxes as high as they want, you won't be effected. Period.

Call your advisor and tell him you want an investment vehicle that is tax deferred annually and tax free upon withdrawal.

If he or she doesn't know how to do it, call another advisor.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Are you an insurance agent with NWM? You take loans out on your "life insurance policy" that you never really pay back and basically make 6% forever?

 

[GlobalWealth]

I'm all for taxing people according to their earning but anything over 50% is too much in my eyes.

So I can steal 49% of your money at gunpoint, but 50% is too much? At what % does it become morally sound to steal?

 

[GlobalWealth]

I am proud to pay the taxes I owe, and I will be more proud still when my tax rate goes up hopefully with increased income

Socialist alert, warning, socialist alert.

Read the 10 steps to transition from a free society to socialism/communism.

The Communist Manifesto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

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[GlobalWealth]

If you are selling products your trucks (or shipping companies') are driving the roads more, causing wear to that infrastructure and also polluting.

For the most part fuel tax pays for roads. The more you drive, the more you pay in fuel tax.

You're using natural resources to build your product, and that goes the same if you're in real estate, construction, etc.

You are paying more in property tax for the use of these resources.

Your money is working in more exotic financial vehicles, requiring more regulation and oversight so that it is not stolen from you by bankers or nefarious hedge-fund managers.

You make assumptions that you need more regulation here. In reality, these exotic financial vehicles would be mostly unnecessary and much smaller if it weren't for Nixon decoupling the dollar from gold in 1971. This started the onslaught of financial derivatives to hedge against currency fluctuations. This resulted in additional speculation. All created by the government you are so happy to pay 50% of your income to.

And the banking sector is nothing more than the 4th branch of government these days anyway. You only need to look into presidential cabinets and 'czars' to see it is filled with Goldman Sachs executives. The incestuousness is huge, but completely overlooked by the citizens.

If you didn't do it, perhaps someone else would, but then it would be them who was making the impact, and not you, and thus, it would be acceptable for them to pay their share as well.

The problem is that due to all this taxation and regulation, much of this impact is being made outside of the US now. Over the past 4 years more big companies have left the US than in the previous 30 years combined. And more wealthy individuals have left the country in the past 4 years than in the past 25 years combined.

Me being one of them. All economic value I create now is outside the US. Sure, I am in the minority at this point, but these numbers are growing tremendously and the people leaving are the ones with money.

The greatest thing about all of this is that if someone in the country decides they don't like the situation, they can choose to leave or do something different. It is yet to be seen if they will or not.

Wrong, it is happening.

Even the article says that this particular part of the policy will not bring in much money.

This is completely true. I have personally witnessed several wealthy French entrepreneurs leave the country this year with their money and their business. This type of policy has very clear consequences. It never increases tax collections.

 

[GlobalWealth]

Numbers don't lie.

You got that right. Its already happening.

 

[GlobalWealth]

Other example is Estonia, from a Finnish point of view. A huge number of Finnish SMEs are either investing or will invest in Estonia in the next 5 years. Many have already moved there (if I remember correctly there are about 5000 Finnish companies now in Estonia). The reason is simple: better corporate taxation, even 25% income tax (as far as I know), similar jurisdiction and services as well as physical proximity (only 80km from Helsinki).

Good example. Estonia has a flat 21% tax on personal earnings. No corporate tax. No investment income tax. No capital gains tax. Employees don't even file tax returns since the company just withholds their 21%. Only companies and self-employed people file returns.

Estonia suffered the economic collapse in 2007-8 also, but has had a healthy and growing economy since. I was in Tallinn (capital) a couple of months ago and business was booming. One night we had to go to 4 different restaurants to get a table within 2 hours, and it was a Thursday.

I look at a country now like a hotel. Today I stay a the Hyatt. It has a great rate, good service and comfortable. But if the Marriott gives me a better rate or better services, I will just move hotels.

 

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[GlobalWealth]

do you also accept my opinion that the state is a class of people living off exploitation and theft, and to be able to act on it (i.e. not pay taxes if I don't want to and not be kidnapped and put into a cage for it)?

Well put.

 

[GlobalWealth]

Our society is built upon tax payers money, and many of you would not even be succesful if not for the basic equality our social systems provide

Biggest line of bullshit on the forum yet. Congrats. you are the winner. BostonH, sorry you were so close.

Society was not and never has been built on taxpayer money. It was and always will be built on productive people. Tax money is a slow drain on otherwise creative people (entrepreneurs and investors) that robs them of productive capital.

In the US you pay appr. 50% of your income in taxes (federal, state, sales, property, etc). The govt is by far the worst allocator of capital. The incentives are all wrong and corruption is inevitable.

Obama is definitely a socialist. No question. Anyone who cannot see that is blinded by years of brainwashing and the inability to think rationally.

 

[Entourage]

Whilst I am not a big fan of the government, I do think all the people on this forum should at least be grateful for the past generations that have paid their dues so we have the opportunity to use the infrastructure they built to our benefit, and likewise, I hope the next generations will benefit even more from the dues we are paying. Politically, I find it extremely stupid of the French government to tax the rich with 75%, but I am grateful, as a lot of them are now moving to Belgium

 

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[GlobalWealth]

It can heal itself,

I agree with everything in this post except the statement above. The debt situation has gotten so out of hand the only possible solution at this point is default. If that is what you consider healing itself, then yes it can. But unfortunately it has reached the point of no return and the next few decades will only show a decline in standards of living for the lower and middle class.

 

[GlobalWealth]

The Netherlands has one of the best educational systems in the world (how can you even begin to ridicule our education when your own country fails so miserably at it, see the amount of American people who still reject evolution for example)

He was just using you clear ignorance as a sign of failure of the Dutch system. Let's hope others are smarter than you and bring up the average.

I've got news for you, we reject socialism too! Socialism has nothing to do with this, please educate yourself on the subject before attempting to act high and mighty. Even the "Socialist Party" (which is not even really socialist anymore) only gets 10% of the vote.

Let's not get hung up on semantics here. You are clearly a socialist. Closet socialist? Or just completely ignorant of the meaning? Either was it doesn't matter. Do a bit of homework next time kiddo.