Fed Up With Your Country? Where Is Left to Go?

[masterneme]

So all that said...when are you getting out? Where are you headed? Sounds like you're pretty fed up

My plans have changed since my last visit to the forum.

I'm discarding Mexico, I want to stay in Europe.

Where is something I'm deciding yet, I have a couple of options right now on the table.

You see? It's not as easy as leaving the country and that's it. If you're a resident you're trapped, you can't renounce your residency like in every other place. You need to FIRST spend 6 months within a natural year somewhere else, then come back to Spain and tell them to stop taxing you showing irrefutable proof that you live out.

And you can't leave anything linking to you or they'll sneak penalties. Here's where I'm at right now, trying to close pending tasks and how much will take to finish everything is uncertain.

 

[Mammoth]

My plans have changed since my last visit to the forum.

I'm discarding Mexico, I want to stay in Europe.

Where is something I'm deciding yet, I have a couple of options right now on the table.

You see? It's not as easy as leaving the country and that's it. If you're a resident you're trapped, you can't renounce your residency like in every other place. You need to FIRST spend 6 months within a natural year somewhere else, then come back to Spain and tell them to stop taxing you showing irrefutable proof that you live out.

And you can't leave anything linking to you or they'll sneak penalties. Here's where I'm at right now, trying to close pending tasks and how much will take to finish everything is uncertain.

That's unfortunate. But worth all the struggle in the end if there's no future in that country for you.

It was much easier leaving Canada. I ceased being a tax-paying resident the day I left.

 

[Itizn]

Colombia mandates vaccine certificate for all public and private events | The City Paper Bogotá

With complete economic reopening, President Duque mandated that all persons attending public or private events will require proof of a C0VlD-19 vaccination certificate.

thecitypaperbogota.com

time for me to get out of here

 

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[MTF]

Exactly what I've been saying, Spain is done and just like you I think is very tragic but is what people want, which I find infuriating. We could be like Switzerland with beaches, instead we got Venezuela.

And in the future it will be worse, the country is bankrupt, there's political unrest, bad migration non-stop, awful laws in place, unfair justice system controlled by the government (or I should say socialists), doing business is hell, burocracy is slow and inefficient, police doesn't enforce law, separatism, corruption everywhere, new taxes every week... and more to come.

Did you know that recently the Constitutional Tribunal declared that some of our lockdowns were illegal?

Consequences? Protests? Nothing.

N
O
T
H
I
N
G

This should tell you everything about where we're heading towards.

If you really REALLY like Spain, live in Portugal, or better yet in Andorra. And come here for tourism. Other than that stay away from here.

Edit: I've been doing some research about Spain's Golden Visa program. If you invest 500.000€ or more in real state you can get a Spanish passport.

The good news is that you don't even need to live here, nor speak Spanish, nor know anything about the history or culture.

BUT, you need to keep the investment for 10 years. TEN YEARS.

So personally I don't know if it's worthy anymore since you can "become European" in Cyprus or Malta in much less time and for less money.

Yep I agree with that assessment with the socialistic tendencies and a very closed mind for most people being the key reasons why Spain is in terrible decline.

I'm discarding Mexico, I want to stay in Europe.

Where is something I'm deciding yet, I have a couple of options right now on the table.

What are the options?

I think that except for the Balkans and some smaller countries nobody talks about (like Slovenia), Switzerland might be the best bet.

Colombia mandates vaccine certificate for all public and private events | The City Paper Bogotá

With complete economic reopening, President Duque mandated that all persons attending public or private events will require proof of a C0VlD-19 vaccination certificate.

thecitypaperbogota.com

time for me to get out of here

Sad but to be expected all over the world.

This part cracked me up:

Despite the encouraging news, however, Ruíz warned that the fourth wave of new infections has been “deferred” – given the vaccination roll-out and obligatory wearing of face masks until, at least, the end of this year.

There's always this neat "BUT" to keep scaring people. And insisting on that BS that wearing masks affects anything is hilarious.

 

[MTF]

I consider anything with less than 20% taxes as good in my book. Ideally Andorra until I can remove my Spanish resident status and then Estonia as a perpetual traveler enjoying no corporate tax unless I move dividends.

I also like Switzerland but I see it more of a retirement destination.

But I'm trying not to get very deep into this or I will start action faking and/or procastinating, if I can't put my shit together any plans I make will be worthless and any research an exercise in mental masturbation.

I spent a couple of days in Andorra last fall and found it quite depressing. Because of its location mostly in the valley, very little sun reaches the houses there. Have you already spent there some time?

 

[GPM]

Yea I had to sell a car I loved because of the border BS. Quit thinking damnit, get on the plane and figure the rest as you go.

Lol. We are don't worry. See you at Ik Kil.

If we can't figure out the drive, we are flying. I'll be finalizing it all by next week.

 

[MTF]

There's really nothing there, its just a tax thing if im being honest. Id rather pay some amount of taxes but being in a decent country

Yep at some point of the decision-making process you need to decide if you want to lower your taxes at all costs (but possibly have a worse lifestyle) or keep paying more (possibly be frustrated with it) but live in a more enjoyable place.

 

[ALC]

Yep at some point of the decision-making process you need to decide if you want to lower your taxes at all costs (but possibly have a worse lifestyle) or keep paying more (possibly be frustrated with it) but live in a more enjoyable place.

Honestly i would just see it as in which part of your life you are at.

If tax cut helps your business to grow more exponentially then it may be worth it for couple months or years but the huge downside is how boring this part of the world is, really need a strong mindset / resistance to boring.

 

[YanC]

the huge downside is how boring this part of the world is, really need a strong mindset / resistance to boring.

I spent a couple of days in Andorra last fall and found it quite depressing. Because of its location mostly in the valley, very little sun reaches the houses there.

Well, to each one its tastes I guess. I already live in a small town, looking to go to the countryside, and spend much of my freetime in the mountains, which are half an hour drive away. Of course, if you don't enjoy hiking related stuff, there pretty much is nothing to do there.
The more I go through in life, the more I see myself wanting to isolate further from the mess of the world.

@MTF , do you think you found it depressing because living in the mountains might not be your thing, or have you spent time in other mountainous areas where you had a better feeling than in Andorra ?

I will probably just go there to find out for myself at some point, it's a 3 hours drive from home.

 

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[MTF]

@MTF , do you think you found it depressing because living in the mountains might not be your thing, or have you spent time in other mountainous areas where you had a better feeling than in Andorra ?

I don't mind being in the mountains and enjoy peaceful places. I've spent time in some mountainous places like Liechtenstein, Switzerland and Italy and enjoyed them all way more than Andorra.

I think that Andorra is fine for a few days but I can't imagine myself living there. Meanwhile, I could imagine living in Switzerland or a mountainous area in another larger and more open country (by open I mean it's not stuck in a narrow valley like most of Andorra).

Perhaps you'd enjoy it. There are people who think it's great and there are at least a few good reasons why (super safe, very developed with lighting fast fiber optic Internet pretty much everywhere, low taxes, paradise for winter sports lovers, mountain biking and hiking as well).

 

[MTF]

@Mammoth how long do you need to stay in Mexico each year of the 4 years to apply for naturalization?

 

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[Mammoth]

@Mammoth how long do you need to stay in Mexico each year of the 4 years to apply for naturalization?

Good question. I hadn't looked into the actual day count because I don't plan on living anywhere else during this process.

To correct myself, it's 4 years of of temporary residence then you can apply to be a permanent resident. After 5 years of provable legal residency you can apply for naturalization.

I can double check with my lawyer on the amount of days you need to spend in the country and let you know. One person on their blog is saying you can't have been out of the country for more than 180 days in the 2 years prior to your naturalization application.

 

[Itizn]

Update: I'm still in Colombia, but left the capital, to a different department of the country.
And within that department I'm living in a small town of maybe 15,000 people, where a lot of foreigners and tourists are seen when out and about as well

It's about three and a half hours from the major city of Medellin.

While this past week the national "mandate" for vaccination was officially enforced, you wouldn't know it in places like where I am. In fact during my entire travel from the capital to here (which took about twenty hours, as I passed through several terminals and hopped on several buses) I "complied" with mask-wearing for maybe thirty seconds? Only when I was asked to enter one of the terminals.

The point is, sometimes the problem isn't the country, it's your perspective.

 

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[Sirrom]

The Dutch government issued a new curfew.

Is there somewhere (preferably europe or closeby like georgia etc) where there is still relative freedom? It would be nice if it is fairly cheap to stay since i am in the beginning phase of my business.

I am not talking about facemasks and vaccinations but the freedom to go to a gym in the evening........

 

[MTF]

The Dutch government issued a new curfew.

Is there somewhere (preferably europe or closeby like georgia etc) where there is still relative freedom? It would be nice if it is fairly cheap to stay since i am in the beginning phase of my business.

I am not talking about facemasks and vaccinations but the freedom to go to a gym in the evening........

Poland. Thankfully no covid passes, few restrictions, and people largely don't give a shit.

 

[anthonyseoul]

The Dutch government issued a new curfew.

Is there somewhere (preferably europe or closeby like georgia etc) where there is still relative freedom? It would be nice if it is fairly cheap to stay since i am in the beginning phase of my business.

I am not talking about facemasks and vaccinations but the freedom to go to a gym in the evening........

Here in England it is still relatively free, although who knows what is around the corner.

We don't have to wear facemasks anywhere (including indoors). Even when facemasks were mandatory, many people were wearing lanyards that exempted them on medical grounds. If you tell them you're exempt (like I always did), they can't do anything.

There are no vaccine passports YET. Will these come? It's 50/50 at the moment. However, there are vaccine passports in Scotland and Wales.

There is no lockdown at the moment and there are no plans for any lockdowns. Cases are really high, which in my opinion is good. This means the general population is catching C0V1D and are developing herd immunity.

To be honest, it's almost like pre-c0v1d here, bar the odd annoyance such as my children's clubs being cancelled and some people still choosing to wear masks.

However, we really don't know what is round the corner. That's the thing about moving to a place that seems relatively free: in this climate, that freedom can be gone in an instant and you have wasted time, money and effort for nothing.

 

[OMDA]

Consider your primary hobbies and see if there's anyone locally who can help you improve in them through personal coaching.

My standard strategy, even for traveling for just a week, is to hire a local surf coach, ideally the sole owner of their school (to get someone really invested in teaching and good customer experience; coaches under a big school are often under-qualified and don't care as much). Often after just a few sessions we're friends already and most surfers are pretty cool people.

Yes! My selection of where to live in Europe, pre-2020, was driven by communities in a social hobby I have. I met tons of people this way and they also helped me some with their language. If that hobby didn't exist in a different place I would find an adjacent one.

Doing something like surfing with the locals seems like a great one too.

 

[Jadus]

This thread seems to have gone a bit quiet...

For a while there it looked like most places were getting on board with insanity, but definitely seems to be a lot of push-back on mandates and mask wearing lately. Anyone noticing any significant positive changes on the ground abroad? What's the latest in Mexico? Any up and coming destinations that are starting to go more towards freedom again (as well as great places to live)?

I returned to the states from Asia last March and have been exploring the deserts out in AZ this winter. Pretty mellow out here as far as the mania goes, but feeling the itch to head back overseas.

Not much change here in Thailand. Their on-again, off-again and forever changing entry requirements are keeping most tourists away. Another high season destroyed.

They have eased up a bit on the crazy no-drinking rules in some places but everyone is still wearing masks. Supposedly, the PM is going to declare covid endemic by the end of the year.

 

[K1 Lambo]

That's right, no vaccine required to enter the UK.

The government has also done another major u-turn. Last year they announced that all frontline health workers in England would need to be vacc1nated to keep their jobs. There were lots of protests and around 80,000 - 100,000 decided not to get the vax. Today it was announced that they are scrapping the plan for mandatory vax.

That's wonderful to hear. We humans need to fight for our freedom. Segregation of people based on whether they're vaxinated or not is a tyranny in itself. I hope Americans take a major step with it too.

 

[Xeon]

The moon is always brighter in another land, the grass is always greener on the other side.

People keep trying to find a "better" country to move to, but the best country in the world is usually the one you're born in (unless it's a very poor 3rd world country).

 

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[YanC]

For me, very safe is a place where you almost don't have to worry about any kind of crime at all (including petty crime).

I have only known two places that would qualify: Iceland and Japan. It really feels like you don't need to be careful at all, that nothing can happen to you and it's very pleasant when traveling.

 

[Timmy C]

This thread feels like the grass is always greener on the other side...

Do you really want to move out to eastern europe? when most of the population is poor and doesn't know english outside the main tourist area? Russia? China? really??
Contrary to the US, unless you are born in this countries you will always be an expat, if you migrate into the states are you american and should be treated like that.

BTW if you move out of the US you still own the US govemerment tax lol, the only countries in the world that pose citizen tax regardless of residency are the US and.... Eritrea

I believe Australia also keeps its citizens, under the thumb and you pay tax in Australia even if you don't live or work there.

 

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[MTF]

I share most of the concerns as everyone has stated. However, I'm not going anywhere. Never been one to run, I'd rather fight. It seems no matter the state, or the country one flees to, everywhere is on a similar trajectory. Like literally every semi populated place on earth is taking orders from the same a holes.

You should watch this video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j_1Fvi37zY

 

[Rob Tennant]

Are you serious? I am not sure that there are any metrics that would call USA the greatest country on Earth. Maybe it once was, but it ranks fairly low on most scales these days.

Happiness, economic and personal freedom, health, opportunity. Not sure it's in the top for any of those

Yea, I'm serious. So I guess we should just all run away? And eventually deal with a similar fate wherever you go? I'm not sure this is something that can be outrun, longterm. Like I said, I share the same concerns as most about this country. Whats going on here sickens me. It just doesnt feel right to me to promote a run away mentality. If it sucks here so bad, why do most try to come here?

You know what, my question of why dont we pull together as a people was quickly answer on this forum today.

 

[Deleted85763]

May I ask why you mentioned Estonia but not Lithuania?

To be serious today I was searching information about Georgia as well! I want to change environment, but do not go crazy on budget.

Some countries offer US and other citizens long periods of staying without getting a visa or residency, etc. and all the hassle that goes with that. The Schengen countries (Europe) let you stay 90 days in 180 days in the region. I think Albania gives 365 days. Plus the cost of housing and food can be so low comparatively that even a 1 person internet only based business earning say $20K per year net can live like a king. There may be downsides to seriously consider compared to the highly developed countries so make sure to do good research before traveling. Things like quality of medical care, laws, legal system, business and personal culture, etc. On the other hand I left with just a suitcase and had no idea where I would end up or what I would do to earn a living. It worked out well for me but it was a heck of a risk.

 

[Deleted85763]

Where I am in Mexico there are McDonald's, Malls, movie theaters, hotels, Walmart... If you wanted to you could pretend you are in USA. However, I've never set foot in any of those (going to Walmart for supplies soon though, a deal is a deal is a deal). I eat churros off the street, my kids are always asking for bolies, we eat probably more pastor than anyone has a right to. We take small vans and busses into the city and town center lots of times. It's not even remotely close to the West the way we are living. That's the way I like it.

If I were richer than I knew what to do, the only thing that would change is the house and the wheels. Larger home (same kind of area), nicer car, private jets, boats. I'd still order pastor by the kg, and get coconut waters and bolies off the street. Being away from those cookie cutter western developments is refreshing. I can always visit them to go see a movie or something anytime I want.

I took a look on online street maps on both sides of the Mexican/US border area (like in Texas and California) . The US is far more luxurious and clean compared to Mexico - yet both countries are only feet away. Why? My theory is that overall there is trust in the US and no trust in Mexico. By no trust I mean it very generally, with corruption being the most important factor. I believe most countries in central and south America, with the exception of Chile, is similar. That's why the US is the place everyone is risking their lives to get in!

BUT HOLD ON - I think Mexico could be a wonderful place in all respects! And it could happen fast, like a year. That's why I have said earlier that the only rule should be "Do what ever you want, as long as it doesn't violate the right of anyone else". Look at Chile. They went free market and created a police force that is professional and trusted. People from Chile aren't the migrants trying to get into the US.

The lesson is clear. That's why the US had all the protests of the last year - the people want professional, trusted police, trusted government and the ability to be free to create their own lives without interference from anyone.

 

[Deleted85763]

@robertwills are you purposely reading people's posts wrong? I believe the QUALITY of the doctor and facility was what was referenced in going to a different country for care, not just the price.

Ive never been to a doctor in USA, but in Canada not a single thing feels modern. My wife's pregnancy stuff was brutal here. In Mexico it was dirt cheap, fast, and crazy new tech. Everyone had those 4d ultrasound things and they gave you printouts and you could view it on a big screen. In Canada it was some low tech wand from 1970 and shown on a small a$$ tube screen that the nurses wouldn't let you look at.

I specifically used the word "quality" to show that even if the quality is the best in the world (regardless of price) a patient may have to get further treatments related to whatever was done. Traveling back could be far more expensive then if you got the treatment done locally.

I had a tooth that needed work done. I decided to have it done in my town in the US even though I knew that some overseas locations would be far less expensive. The savings would literally pay for my trip and give me a vacation at no cost! However I had family commitments and had it done locally. Well, that one procedure required me to go back to the dentist like 10 times over the next year. This was totally unexpected but things keep on going wrong with the tooth.

With medical treatments I believe it's best to have them done close to where one resides at the time, assuming that the quality is of a recognized standard of care

 

[Timmy C]

this is not true. Australians can contact the ATO and give up their residency status and thus tax residency. There are hoops to jump through, but it's doable. I have 2 Australian clients right now going through this process.

That's good to know. Thanks for that, mate.

It sounds like the US prisoners have a harder go of it than us here in the land down under!

 

[GPM]

I went on a 2 day trip in my jeep and was taken for money 3 times. Of course I got a kick out of it but it was annoying.

Tell me more. What happened?

 

[Xavier X]

Tell me more. What happened?

Couldn't help it.