ETHICS IN THE FASTLANE: How low will you sink for wealth?

[randomnumber314]

I can tell you this, ethics won't likely be solved on this forum anytime soon. People have wrestled with it for millenia. From Plato and Aristotle, to Nietzsche to Thomas Aquinas, to John Rawls. But, there is a common thread among all the moral philosophers; good. Define what is good, and do that. To be a good person, do good things.

There's a famous conversation called the ring of geyges. Basically, put the ring on and you're invisible. The debate goes like this: if people think you're good, but you use the ring to manipulate and do bad to improve you're life, you won't be happy on the inside. OR--people can think you're a bad person, and you use the ring to secretly do good, you'll be happy knowing you're good, and people are wrong.

So it all comes down to what you want to think when you're lying on your death bed. Do you want to think, "man I'm a sleeze ball who's used people for my own needs my whole life." Or do you want to lay there knowing you've done your best to do good, no matter what people think of you?

I think people who have built empires dismiss criticism so easily, because they know, overall, they've done so much good that the petty criticism is just noise.

 

[luniac]

is it unethical for me to make free stupid casual smartphone games that get people addicted and waste their lives?
I'm not forcing anybody to play them.

 

[DennisD]

I don't know. Topics like this are hard to get clear answers to. But I think that's what makes them so valuable to talk about.

My family enjoys the Law of Attraction crap. They like homeopathy. I have one family member who is interested in energy healing and a whole bunch of other hullabaloo.

I wish this stuff wasn't sold. I wish it wasn't taking money from the people I love. I think it's unethical to mislead my family like that. But I also believe in free markets. If there wasn't a demand, they wouldn't do what they do. So there must be some value in their trade.

a topic I used to write a lot about is lucid dreaming. In lucid dreams, you are asleep, aware you're asleep, and have full control over the dream. This is good for practicing real-world scenarios while you sleep, or just goofing off and having fun. It's a REAL phenomenon and you CAN implement it willfully, with practice

A common piece of advice is: "If you feel yourself losing control of the dream, look at your hands, it will ground you."
This advice is both COMPLETE BULLSHIT but also COMPLETELY NECESSARY.

There's nothing special about looking at your hands, and the explanation behind WHY this works is BS. But.. it DOES WORK.. In dreams, doing something you EXPECT to work, actually works. It can be me saying "Crossing your arms stabilizes your dreams" or "whistling stabilizes your dreams". So long as it's something you EXPECT to work, it will work.

So... is it unethical to give this advice? If you don't give it, people won't have the tools they need to get results. But if you're completely honest with them, the advice won't work because they won't expect it to work.

I feel that the law of attraction is a bit like this. Some people DO see results, but not because the law is legit... mostly because the law makes it so they DO NOT GIVE UP long enough that the other stuff they're doing eventually works out.

 

[LiveEntrepreneur]

I'm a millionaire, so I'll list all the people I screwed over to get this far:

Hang on, I'm thinking...

Hmmm...

........
......
....
...
..

There MUST be someone I screwed over! The Script says all wealthy people are unethical crooks, so it MUST be true.

I'll keep thinking and get back to you, I'm sure there is someone on the list.

End sarcasm.

In all seriousness,

There are unethical rich people and unethical poor people. Just like there are ethical rich people and ethical poor people.

"Wherever you go, there you are"

Yeah true that.

 

[CrocodileX]

Historically, a lot of the largest winners in the Fastlane have been revealed to have a less than savory vision of what is ethical in the marketplace.

From throwing chickens into a grinder (Tyson) to low wages (Walmart, Carnegie Steel) to adding salt to soda to increase thirst (Coca-Cola), to lobbying politicians to get laws past that protect and/or benefit your corporation, if you can name a well-known enough Fastlane winner, I'm sure I could dig up something that calls their ethics model into question.

My question is, WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE AT UNETHICAL BEHAVIOR?

If everyone lines up and says, "I'd never do anything unethical" because it's the "right" answer, then I will be disappointed. If you want to win all the time, you have to cheat. Even saying, "I'd pay my employees the absolute lowest I can get away with, even if it means that health insurance would burden them" is one man's no-no but another man's necessary evil.

With everyone on here cloaked in anonymity concerning their businesses, it should open the forum to a little honesty in what you consider ethical behavior that others may not.

So.... how low would you sink?

 

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[Lathan]

personal attack on my comprehension of what this entire forum is all about.

I wouldn't call that an "attack", but to each their own.

Why do you want to know about what other people are willing to do that they may feel is unethical? I'm genuinely curious. I mean, is it just out of curiosity? Or is it something else?

 

[pickeringmt]

I think overcharging is unethical. You may not. I think it is unethical to mark up an item too high when it's fair market value is a lot lower. I think theaters are unethical for charging so much for candy. You may not. Ethics are all a matter of opinion.

This isn't ethics, this is understanding the consumer. You don't pay it. Others do. If nobody did, they wouldn't charge that much. You are looking at this entire subject from your single subjective point of view and applying your opinion as fact.
You are a genius. You should understand this concept.

 

[CrocodileX]

Well, to be fair, you refuted the concept of supply and demand as a basis for the economic system because it's unethical.

What does that have to do with the topic? I asked about ethics, explained my personal stance on it, and still await those who will actually contribute constructively to the discussion instead of trying to tell me my personal opinion is wrong. I never refuted supply and demand, I said engaging in pricing at a level that I personally felt was too high was in my personal opinion, unethical. Charging $28 to my insurance company for a $5 meal is unethical, in my opinion. Who cares if someone will pay it. It results in higher premiums that citizens can't afford.

If this discussion is just gonna dissolve into people trying to validate themselves with meme pics from 4chan and off-topic know-it-allness, then I will just stop replying to those who have other reasons for making their presence known on this thread.

 

[Lathan]

I was interested in other people's opinions and experiences with having to make ethical choices in regards to business.

Well in that case, why didn't you say so?

THE OP IS WRONG AND DUMB

I don't think you're dumb.

And yea, there are a few threads about ethics as mentioned. I would link you but computer is being slow when I open another tab. Use the search function.

EDIT: For the record, I have no idea why "case" is a link to headphones on amazon. I didn't link anything.

 

[CrocodileX]

Actually there have been quite a few active and heavily debated threads about ethics here. Not really something that's been missing.

They're missing from the main page of links. What does that have to do with my topic? Aren't you "staff"? Why are you playing the same game as the other off-topic posters? Is there anything you can contribute to the topic?

 

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[CrocodileX]

There are some lines I will not cross.

I am a bit of a blackhat, but there are some things I refuse to do. There is a lot of black and gray areas when it comes to internet marketing, and some things I will not touch.

There have been opportunities where i could make 10's of thousands a month but I rather not cross a line.

Just to prove im not a saint though im having a bot built that will scrape every user on a website and auto message them across several proxies and break captchas.

Some would say this is unethical. I really dont see the harm in it as it is borderline spam, and isnt really hurting anyone. Others would say that it is lost revenue with the site and that I should have payed for a banner ad (Tried to go this route but the webmaster hasn't responded to several emails)

Everyone has their own ethical standards. People also make mistakes.

I love it! Thanks for your input!

 

[CrocodileX]

By the way, maybe I'm biased since I am in the supplement industry, but you are making the incorrect assumption that there is NO value in the market. Do some people take advantage of consumers and sell snake oil? Sure. However, there are others (the majority) who sell quality products that provide the consumer value.

I didn't say there is NO value in the market. I just said it's based on unethical practices. If it's been proven that weight loss products don't work for 98% of the people who take it and they only bought it to satisfy a natural urge for a "quick fix", then in my personal opinion it's unethical to continue selling those kinds of products using the same tactics. It's my opinion.

I am not against the supplement business, I am a bodybuilder. And as a bodybuilder, I know that the majority of supplements in the market are placebo at best.

 

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[CrocodileX]

Not playing a game here but it seems you have. I've contributed a lot to other threads on this same topic. Like to know my thoughts on it? Use the search function.

No thanks. If your only purpose on my first discussion is to try and derail it because "it's been done before", I could care less what you think about anything. Go away and mod something.

 

[smartman]

nevermind, that wasn't appropriate.

 

[FTLane]

I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything I wouldn't do, so lemme share with you some unethical stuff I've done as a lifetime entrepreneur.

*cue my "Chunk" confessional from The Goonies*

1. In the 90's, I wrote a script that manipulated mp3.com's radio station ranking system, putting all of my stations on the top in every genre. Then I wrote a script that hit up bands on mp3.com and told them my company would air them on my stations (mp3.com paid royalties every time someone listened to your music) if they went over to the competitor, IUMA, and registered an account. At the time, IUMA paid $15 per referral. Needless to say, all of these bands followed my landing page's simple 1-2-3 instructions and I ended up generating $11,000/month in revenue until IUMA was bought out by Vitamin-C. Soon mp3.com folded and that venture was over.

MY FEELINGS? Eh. It was a prick on the finger for bands and I made more money than anyone I knew.


2. I signed up for a "dialer" affiliate program and placed them on auto-generated free adult sites in exchange for 25% commission. A dialer's purpose was to be a trojan horse that would (unknowningly to the person who voluntarily downloaded it thinking it was a free porn engine) disconnect your dial-up connection and route you through an Int'l long-distance number that charged upwards of $1/min. Most victims were hard-working Slowlaners with families and when they got the $700 bill for accessing "freelesbians.exe", they would quietly pay it and stop using the service before the wife foun out. I made about $10,000/month in the late 90's from this.

MY FEELINGS? I told my mother what I had done and she asked me if God would approve of me using my natural coding skills to do this. I felt terrible and stopped doing this on my own accord, forfeiting over $2,000/week for 2 hours work.


3. I signed up and peddled "VigRX" on landing pages hosted on free servers. VigRX was supposed to give you "male enhancement". The kicker here was it was endorsed by RON FREAKING JEREMY!!!! There was this low-res, Real-Player video of him endorsing the product so I figured it was legit and used their marketing materials with my own hand-created landing pages. All of a sudden, I was getting $200-$800 checks in the mail every week and I was ecstatic. I didn't know anything about the product, but it obviously cost a lot of money because my commissions divided by page views were astronomical. I then started getting emails from angry customers. I don't know how they found my email address but they did. They were so upset for spending so much money on snake oil. The product ran its life cycle and stopped paying out accordingly after about a year.

MY FEELINGS? I unknowingly propogated a scam product after being duped by the fame of the endorser. These guys who spent money on this were rich. I didn't feel bad at all. I actually kind of laughed before refusing to use that email account anymore because I didn't want to see the angry victim letters.


Those are 3 things I've done that are unethical but paid huge amounts of money. And those are my honest feelings on the outcome.

I've been an entrepreneur since childhood and have struck it rich quite a few times. Each time though, the payday disappeared overnight due to an uncontrollable event.

I read TMF and learned a lot. I want to learn a lot about the structure of entreprenurialism so my next venture isn't so hit-or-miss. I learned that to make it in the Fastlane, I need to create VALUE. Real value, not preceived value. If you exploit a system for pay, you are a slave to the very system you are killing by exploiting it.


In the future, would I do things that cross my ethical line in the name of wealth? YES. Business is business, nothing personal. Would I build my process on something unethical? NO. Would I do anything like the things I listed above? HELL NO.

I am not a bad person. I feel like TMF made me a better person because it clarified why each one of my businesses ultimately failed and how I could've seen it coming. At the same time, I know from experience that money changes you. When you are making real money, the pressure to keep that money coming in changes your ideals. It's easy to say, "I'd never do anything I considered unethical" when all you have is a dollar and a dream.

I would honestly like to say though, for those of you angels out there who would refuse to do anything they weren't 100% comfortable with in the name of wealth, I don't think you stand a chance in this game. Prove me wrong by posting here in front of your estate and say it was all earned without one necessary evil. I apologize, but I believe wealth comes at a price and one of those prices is sometimes having to look the other way while pushing the "execute" button, no matter how small of the consequence.

MJ you must shut down the forum for your own safety I REPEAT SHUT DOWN THE FORUM! We have a 1337 hacker on our hands.

 

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[RogueInnovation]

Short rant enclosed

HOW HIGH WILL YOU RISE.
Thats what this SHOULD be.
I think its stupid to assume that being a douche gets you ahead, it doesn't.
And its that piece of cr#p assumption that justifies so many a##holes to be douches.

Lemme tell you this.
I was p#ssed the f#ck off that business would take up any of my precious time. but I learnt it anyways, in an act of solidarity and good faith, and I pushed myself to be a man that CARED about something I before didn't have time for.

I RAISED THE BAR, just by stepping into the arena... The only question now is, how much FURTHER will you push it???

Its a HARD question.
And one not for p#ssies.


People that SINK LOW are not businessmen, just cash wh#res.
And f#ck conmen like that.

RAISE THE BAR.
Have the self worth to raise the collective condition by your actions.

I question myself about ethics every day, but its not about where I set prices, its about what I stand for, and how far I push myself for my fellow man.


There is ethics and then there are PETTY quibbles... try not to mix the two up
TRUE ETHICS requires going against the stream of EASY on a choice, using all the integrity you have to do good for people, its not easy, and thats why most avoid it, and look for a monopolistic/ultimate solution.

But in reality, ethics means to CHANGE your stance towards the better direction EVERY DAY and in every small choice you have to make.

You can't just draw a line... You have to actively challenge yourself to be better all the time.


I'm in a company right now that might create a few factory sizes of landfill.
And you bet your a## I think about it every day "what if we don't use rubber, what if we x".
Let me tell you... Its not easy(for me)...
But every day, I ask myself, IS THERE another way?
And I push to find it.

Ethics doesn't mean to boycott all rubberised products, it means to be active in the considerations of its impact.


To most of the world tobacco, alcohol, fast food, guns, are unethical.
And cases can be made, damn strong ones too for some of them.

That said, I'd sell alcohol, and fastfood, because its a lifestyle choice. Tobacco I wouldn't due to the severe health issues. And guns is something I am neither here nor there on.

 

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[Zachariah Lange]

When it comes to making money, my time is worth ALOT to me so anything I sell is for a steal because I am not charging you the true value of my time. These ethics discussions are so subjective, "the line" is an intangible thing that you can't point at and say, "OH! found it, right here!". If I am faced with a choice, one that results in me feeling like a bad person, and the other making me feel good I obviously pick the one that makes me feel good. Of course the things that make me feel good are vastly different than the things that make jefferey dammer feel good, so clearly it is different for everyone.

 

[AllenCrawley]

Of course the things that make me feel good are vastly different than the things that make jefferey dammer feel good, so clearly it is different for everyone.

I'm sorry but this made me LOL. So if ethics are different for everyone because of how it makes you feel then Jeffery Dahmer's actions where ethical? I hope I'm misunderstanding your point.

 

[Journey2Million$]

I DON'T agree with your premise that business people have to cheat. I think that by and large most business people are honest and ethical and have integrity. It's just hard for everyone to be perfect, so you have some exceptions. A lot of bad business behavior is driven by the stock market, which encourages corporations to make horrible decisions just to boost short term profits. I'd like to basically get rid of the stock market or change it so as to eliminate this short term thinking.

Also I think a lot of business behavior is driven by the ignorance of the masses. If you have to cut corners to deliver a product at a certain price and most customers are only willing to pay that price, such as with the food industry, then most food producers have to use pesticides and factory farm the meat or else be driven out of business. I shopped at Whole Foods, and their prices overall are roughly double normal crappy supermarket prices. Only a small percentage of consumers are informed enough and willing to pay the prices at Whole Foods.

But if companies go too far in a bad/evil direction, they can get punished for it. McDonalds is the poster child for unhealthy fast food. I read a news story that says McDonald's sales have been falling.

In general, I think people who are cheaters or lack integrity are losers, and they usually don't do well in life. I knew a guy who borrowed $20 and only payed me back $10. He was a loser because he lacked integrity.

Brian Tracy said that you need to have integrity to be successful.
Germans are known for being highly disciplined and having a tremendous amount of integrity, honesty, and lack of corruption. Germany produces 10% of the world's manufactured products.

 

[liquidglass]

I personally believe that overcharging is unethical.

It seems a large part of what you consider "unethical" is your wallet speaking and not your logic or moral compass.

 

[Zachariah Lange]

I'm sorry but this made me LOL. So if ethics are different for everyone because of how it makes you feel then Jeffery Dahmer's actions where ethical? I hope I'm misunderstanding your point.

If you ask him it was, I'm sure. Just saying everyone has different idea of what constitutes "unethical", so you are never going come to a consensus on where "the line" is. It also depends on the particulars of every situation I.E low wages. Some see sub-par wages and scream "Unethical!!", others see someone running a profitable business and providing jobs to people that want them. I just try to stay focused on my goals and be the person I want to be rather than trying to follow the standards set forth by others. If I am making the choices I want, I could burn in hell or be the greatest businessman in history, either way I am making the decisions that make me happy.

We could have a whole other thread on the effects of those decisions and how you treat others, but that would be a little long-winded for me. Just going for a simple answer to an over-simplified question.

 

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[Zachariah Lange]

Well, I think you disproved your own point! The fact that what feels good is different for each person is exactly why "Whatever feels good" is an insufficient criteria for "What is ethical?"

I see it more as a 2-stage mechanism. Stage 1 is "Is it ethical?" For me, that criteria is both simple and constant across all situations: does this initiate force or fraud against someone? If no, then it's ethical. If yes, it's unethical.

Stage 2 is "Is it a good idea?" This is where my gut, my feelings, come into play. "Does this idea feel good to me?". If yes, then it's likely a good idea. If no, then don't do it.

Or put another way, the fact that it feels good is a necessary, but not a sufficient condition to go forward. But feeling bad is a sufficient condition for putting on the brakes.

Much better worded than my post. I think it's one of those things where if you have to ask, "Is this ethical?" than the answer is probably no.

 

[Zachariah Lange]

I will not intentionally deceive anyone or violate integrity for money. I don't like money that much. I want to be able to sleep at night. There's a lot of ways to earn an honest buck or more without doing things that are wrong. I also don't believe ethics and integrity are situational. Most things are black and white.

Not so much a gray area, as an area of confusion. Some people think being aggressive and taking the upper hand in life can be construed as unethical(subjective). There doesn't always have to be a winner and a loser, but a lot of times there is going to be a loser and that is business. I.E. A guy I know owns a semi repair shop. Next door was a custom fit tube/hose business that he did a lot of business with. Eventually he outfitted his shop with the same equipment, more inventory, and lower prices and put them out of business. Most of us see no problem with that, but a lot of people commenting on here seem to think there is a problem.

 

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[Vigilante]

It's too bad by the way that the OP didn't have what it takes to be allowed to stick around here. He might have learned some things. Not everyone is out to TAKE.

 

[Vigilante]

Not so much a gray area, as an area of confusion. Some people think being aggressive and taking the upper hand in life can be construed as unethical(subjective). There doesn't always have to be a winner and a loser, but a lot of times there is going to be a loser and that is business. I.E. A guy I know owns a semi repair shop. Next door was a custom fit tube/hose business that he did a lot of business with. Eventually he outfitted his shop with the same equipment, more inventory, and lower prices and put them out of business. Most of us see no problem with that, but a lot of people commenting on here seem to think there is a problem.

No problems with that. Business has winners and losers. You should be playing to win.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Bump due to similar thread as this thread is still open.

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/ethics-over-money.59101/ <--- this thread is closed.

 

[Brentnal]

People have different views of what is ethical, so this is very hard to discuss.

 

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[Growth & Learn]

Historically, a lot of the largest winners in the Fastlane have been revealed to have a less than savory vision of what is ethical in the marketplace.

If you want to win all the time, you have to cheat.

So.... how low would you sink?

I disagree with this 100%. When people say stuff like this it makes me wonder what has skewed their worldview. I hear people who are not wealthy say shit like this all the time. Somewhere they were told that you have to lie, cheat, and steal to build wealth. I'm going on the record…it's utter bullshit. You don't have to be dishonest or unethical to become wealthy. Sure, a small portion of wealthy business people have questionable morals but causation does not imply correlation.

There are are also religious leaders in every religion who are supposed to be the model for ethics who are criminals. Everybody is in an individual and individuals make personal choices. Again causation does not imply correlation.

Basic wealth creation formula is simple. Provide a great product that people like to use a lot + take care of your customers x scalabable marketing efforts = wealth creation.

Any wealth I've created has come from being super nice and super cool to people (i.e. my customers).

 

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[AllenCrawley]

People who want to delude themselves see value in snake oil. Is it ethical to sell it to them?

If you claim your product does 'X' and it doesn't. Then no, it's not ethical. The snake oil reference is ridiculous.

 

[pickeringmt]

People who want to delude themselves see value in snake oil. Is it ethical to sell it to them?

People will only give money in exchange for something that they perceive as having more value than the money itself.
Distorting the value is unethical in my opinion, but value is also relative - which is why the free market is awesome. We can choose and get what WE want.
Like booze. I wont sell it, I won't buy it either. Is it unethical? To some yes, to some no. Valuable? again, to some yes, to others no.
Now telling people it will cure cancer - that is distorting the value of the product.

 

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