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RANT Be picky when choosing clients, even when you're starting out

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LaneMan

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Ever since I joined this forum, people have been telling to charge what I'm worth and work with good people.

Because I only just started working on my business after leaving the rat race, I lack the experience, so, a lot of mistakes were made and will continue to be made.

One of the worst mistakes I made was I undercharged, even worked for free, and chose to work with really bad people.

Today, I got the wake up call I deserve when a client outright disrespected me during a meeting.

I was doing really cheap programming work for this guy. I built him a really nice custom ecommerce site with a ton of fancy features just because I wanted such a project on my portfolio. I'm not even going to say how much he paid me because it's too embarrassing.

Today, this same guy, instead of being grateful, told me that I'm pretending to be a programmer. And you know why? I simply refused to add a complicated feature to his site for free. A feature that would take 2 months to implement.

And you know what happened? He and his business partners were laughing their a$$es out while I sat there with my dumb face wondering what I did wrong.

So, right there decided that I don't need this and I had done enough boot licking.

I multiplied my original embarassing price by 10 and told them it was going to cost this much and it's either take it or leave it. Obviously they didn't agree, so we're working on terminating our contract and I feel very happy.

Lesson learned: Just because you're a new business doesn't mean that you need to allow people to shit on you.
 

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THR

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I multiplied my original embarassing price by 10 and told them it was going to cost this much and it's either take it or leave it. Obviously they didn't agree, so we're working on terminating our contract and I feel very happy.

Lesson learned: Just because you're a new business doesn't mean that you need to allow people to shit on you
Wonderful to hear. I've been there too, but I wasn't quite as frank as you!

Clients who aren't tech-savvy often have trouble discerning the complexity in implementation. Some people I work with consider changing the colour of a button the same as adding peer-to-peer networking. Nevertheless, there is no need to be obnoxious about it.

I would also like to add something I've learnt: don't let one unpleasant client jade your opinion of all. Compartmentalise the arseholes, and move on.
 

BarKogan$

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Ever since I joined this forum, people have been telling to charge what I'm worth and work with good people.

Because I only just started working on my business after leaving the rat race, I lack the experience, so, a lot of mistakes were made and will continue to be made.

One of the worst mistakes I made was I undercharged, even worked for free, and chose to work with really bad people.

Today, I got the wake up call I deserve when a client outright disrespected me during a meeting.

I was doing really cheap programming work for this guy. I built him a really nice custom ecommerce site with a ton of fancy features just because I wanted such a project on my portfolio. I'm not even going to say how much he paid me because it's too embarrassing.

Today, this same guy, instead of being grateful, told me that I'm pretending to be a programmer. And you know why? I simply refused to add a complicated feature to his site for free. A feature that would take 2 months to implement.

And you know what happened? He and his business partners were laughing their a$$es out while I sat there with my dumb face wondering what I did wrong.

So, right there decided that I don't need this and I had done enough boot licking.

I multiplied my original embarassing price by 10 and told them it was going to cost this much and it's either take it or leave it. Obviously they didn't agree, so we're working on terminating our contract and I feel very happy.

Lesson learned: Just because you're a new business doesn't mean that you need to allow people to shit on you.
I would kick them in the face! so annoying.
Anyways, lesson learned, good for you.
 

LaneMan

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Wonderful to hear. I've been there too, but I wasn't quite as frank as you!

Clients who aren't tech-savvy often have trouble discerning the complexity in implementation. Some people I work with consider changing the colour of a button the same as adding peer-to-peer networking. Nevertheless, there is no need to be obnoxious about it.

I would also like to add something I've learnt: don't let one unpleasant client jade your opinion of all. Compartmentalise the arseholes, and move on.

For sure, there are a ton of good people out there looking for people like me to solve their problems. I won't be wasting time with ungrateful bastards anymore.

I don't mind non technical people but that's no reason to disrespect people, especially during a business meeting.

When you undercharge your work, you will attract really bad people who's sole purpose will be to take advantage of you.

I learned it the hard way but the hard way is the best way to learn.
 

Raja

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Ever since I joined this forum, people have been telling to charge what I'm worth and work with good people.

Because I only just started working on my business after leaving the rat race, I lack the experience, so, a lot of mistakes were made and will continue to be made.

One of the worst mistakes I made was I undercharged, even worked for free, and chose to work with really bad people.

Today, I got the wake up call I deserve when a client outright disrespected me during a meeting.

I was doing really cheap programming work for this guy. I built him a really nice custom ecommerce site with a ton of fancy features just because I wanted such a project on my portfolio. I'm not even going to say how much he paid me because it's too embarrassing.

Today, this same guy, instead of being grateful, told me that I'm pretending to be a programmer. And you know why? I simply refused to add a complicated feature to his site for free. A feature that would take 2 months to implement.

And you know what happened? He and his business partners were laughing their a$$es out while I sat there with my dumb face wondering what I did wrong.

So, right there decided that I don't need this and I had done enough boot licking.

I multiplied my original embarassing price by 10 and told them it was going to cost this much and it's either take it or leave it. Obviously they didn't agree, so we're working on terminating our contract and I feel very happy.

Lesson learned: Just because you're a new business doesn't mean that you need to allow people to shit on you.
why didn't you disconnected the call?
 

Raja

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Because it's unprofessional. You can't fight fire with fire.
but still, you could have called them on their bullshit and tell them that it was unprofessional of them!
 

Bekit

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Ever since I joined this forum, people have been telling to charge what I'm worth and work with good people.

Because I only just started working on my business after leaving the rat race, I lack the experience, so, a lot of mistakes were made and will continue to be made.

One of the worst mistakes I made was I undercharged, even worked for free, and chose to work with really bad people.

Today, I got the wake up call I deserve when a client outright disrespected me during a meeting.

I was doing really cheap programming work for this guy. I built him a really nice custom ecommerce site with a ton of fancy features just because I wanted such a project on my portfolio. I'm not even going to say how much he paid me because it's too embarrassing.

Today, this same guy, instead of being grateful, told me that I'm pretending to be a programmer. And you know why? I simply refused to add a complicated feature to his site for free. A feature that would take 2 months to implement.

And you know what happened? He and his business partners were laughing their a$$es out while I sat there with my dumb face wondering what I did wrong.

So, right there decided that I don't need this and I had done enough boot licking.

I multiplied my original embarassing price by 10 and told them it was going to cost this much and it's either take it or leave it. Obviously they didn't agree, so we're working on terminating our contract and I feel very happy.

Lesson learned: Just because you're a new business doesn't mean that you need to allow people to shit on you.
Crazy story! Sorry about the way they mistreated you, but applause on the response. I know the feeling of happiness that comes from terminating a relationship like this.

Life is too short to work with bad/abusive/toxic clients.
 

LaneMan

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but still, you could have called them on their bullshit and tell them that it was unprofessional of them!

From my experience, people never accept their faults and will always find ways to justify why they did something bad.

Instead of arguing with them just said, "Ok, you want this feature, it's gonna take 2 months and will cost you X". That shut them up immediately.

They might act tough now and pretend they will find someone else to do it but I can predict that they will come back begging when nobody wants to do it for cheap enough because they first have to dig into the code that I wrote and find out how to integrate with my API.
 

sparechange

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I had a customer wanting a free sample (which I obliged)

Delivered it to their door and they said they are in bed......

''Try again tomorrow at XX time''

Right!

If they contact you again tell them the price went up again :rofl:
 

LaneMan

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I had a customer wanting a free sample (which I obliged)

Delivered it to their door and they said they are in bed......

''Try again tomorrow at XX time''

Right!

If they contact you again tell them the price went up again :rofl:

For sure. The saying "You get what you pay for" also applies the other way around. When you give stuff for free, you end up attracting the wrong kind of people.
 

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Lesson learned: Just because you're a new business doesn't mean that you need to allow people to shit on you.
That's right!

I've been there too recently, even though I'm not a particularly new business.
A client got hysterical and started belittling me and other people who wanted to help him fix an issue.

I've learned that clients who raise red flags from the very beginning hardly ever turn into dream clients. Sooner or later they bite.
 

LaneMan

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That's right!

I've been there too recently, even though I'm not a particularly new business.
A client got hysterical and started belittling me and other people who wanted to help him fix an issue.

I've learned that clients who raise red flags from the very beginning hardly ever turn into dream clients. Sooner or later they bite.

Yea it's very important to not ignore red flags and gut feelings and be upfront with the client right from the beginning.
 

WabiSabi

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For sure. The saying "You get what you pay for" also applies the other way around. When you give stuff for free, you end up attracting the wrong kind of people.

Reminds me of selling a decently rare guitar, I offered him a good deal cause he said "He'd keep it forever, use it at gigs and never sell". Not 2 weeks later it's jacked up on ebay 3 times the original price, even messages and tries to sell it back to me.

"Good deals" attract the worst kinds of bottom feeders, nowadays I always sell at a fair price.
 

MrTrash757

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Firing clients or telling people to "go away" (nicest way to say it) is one of my favorite things to do. Working with terrible people is one of the worst things ever, especially business owners (like my ex-boss).

Its amazing how many better and more profitable opportunities have filled their place.

Good on you. Seriously.
 

Jon L

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I've been there/done that/so true/wish I could go back and yell at myself not to take crappy clients/etc.

One thing you said that worries me: you're considering doing work for them still, if they pay you well. I'd suggest moving on completely. When they say, 'here's $100k to finish off this project,' you answer: 'I wish I could, but I've gotten really busy since we last spoke. I'd be glad to answer questions that a different developer you hire might have. We can do time and material for that at $175/hr.' That way, you don't leave them in a complete lurch, but you also don't have to deal with them anymore.

You will end up doing much better financially than if you kept them in your life. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect that, but it will happen. Its happened to me. Bad clients like this bring down your spirit. They change your whole outlook on yourself, your business, other clients, etc. That negativity affects stuff in ways you don't realize.
 
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The-J

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Crappy clients are at every price point... but damn if they're not super common at the lowest price points.

I was never treated worse than when I was working for $10-20/hour.
 

LaneMan

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Firing clients or telling people to "go away" (nicest way to say it) is one of my favorite things to do. Working with terrible people is one of the worst things ever, especially business owners (like my ex-boss).

Its amazing how many better and more profitable opportunities have filled their place.

Good on you. Seriously.

For sure, when you work for shitty people, you end up losing a ton of opportunities working with really good people. And there's a ton of people out there looking for you to come and do good things with them, it's only now that I'm realizing that.
I've been there/done that/so true/wish I could go back and yell at myself not to take crappy clients/etc.

One thing you said that worries me: you're considering doing work for them still, if they pay you well. I'd suggest moving on completely. When they say, 'here's $100k to finish off this project,' you answer: 'I wish I could, but I've gotten really busy since we last spoke. I'd be glad to answer questions that a different developer you hire might have. We can do time and material for that at $175/hr.' That way, you don't leave them in a complete lurch, but you also don't have to deal with them anymore.

You will end up doing much better financially than if you kept them in your life. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect that, but it will happen. Its happened to me. Bad clients like this bring down your spirit. They change your whole outlook on yourself, your business, other clients, etc. That negativity affects stuff in ways you don't realize.

Yea I'd really like to not do their stuff anymore but since I already build a pretty complex system, it would be a waste to let it die like that.

What I did is, I gave them a price that will allow me to hire someone to work on the project if needed, that way I don't have to deal with this directly.
 

FauxPas

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Ever since I joined this forum, people have been telling to charge what I'm worth and work with good people.

Because I only just started working on my business after leaving the rat race, I lack the experience, so, a lot of mistakes were made and will continue to be made.

One of the worst mistakes I made was I undercharged, even worked for free, and chose to work with really bad people.

Today, I got the wake up call I deserve when a client outright disrespected me during a meeting.

I was doing really cheap programming work for this guy. I built him a really nice custom ecommerce site with a ton of fancy features just because I wanted such a project on my portfolio. I'm not even going to say how much he paid me because it's too embarrassing.

Today, this same guy, instead of being grateful, told me that I'm pretending to be a programmer. And you know why? I simply refused to add a complicated feature to his site for free. A feature that would take 2 months to implement.

And you know what happened? He and his business partners were laughing their a$$es out while I sat there with my dumb face wondering what I did wrong.

So, right there decided that I don't need this and I had done enough boot licking.

I multiplied my original embarassing price by 10 and told them it was going to cost this much and it's either take it or leave it. Obviously they didn't agree, so we're working on terminating our contract and I feel very happy.

Lesson learned: Just because you're a new business doesn't mean that you need to allow people to shit on you.
So it's better to overcharge and negotiate the price later?
 

GatsbyMag

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For sure. The saying "You get what you pay for" also applies the other way around. When you give stuff for free, you end up attracting the wrong kind of people.
This is way too true.

This is why I like to set everything as 14 day trials and make it clear in my messaging that it's only a trial.

So many people in the world want things for free or as cheap as possibly possible! Even if the thing will give them 5x ROI, if they think they can get it for free they'll bend over backwards.

And to make it worse, you have dumb talented people e.g. software developers/web developers who create cool sh*t and give it away for free, which sets everyone else's expectation that everything cool should be free. Imagine investing sweat equity and hours-upon-hours of your life to create something for free and the only thing you get in return are a few "this is great, thank you!" and people complaining about the free product at the same time.



If you can't tell, this post triggered some memories for me lol.
 

amp0193

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Crappy clients are at every price point... but damn if they're not super common at the lowest price points.

I was never treated worse than when I was working for $10-20/hour.

My customers who complain the most are the ones who financed their order.

They couldn’t really afford it, so they’re going to nitpick over every little thing that isn’t perfect.
 

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CaptainAmerica

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Oh, yeah. I know better too. But here's my example from last month:

A friend of mine, a property manager, ran into a jam with her usual cleaner, and, knowing I'm starting a booking agency for cleaners and other home services, reached out. Not having a team ready for her, I did two jobs myself, and *instead of doing a prepay, like I would for anyone else*, I invoiced her. Two weeks later, nothing. I text her, hey, did you get the invoices? Oh, yeah. Not going to pay until the empty rentals are rented and the apartment owner pays for the cleaning. WTH? How is that any way to run a business?

This is why I had the policy in place. Initial services are all prepaid, until we have a history of you paying. I let my standards slip one time, for a friend, and I'm out $600.
 

journeyman

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Great point and been there myself, but it's one of these things that it's easier said than done.
When you are starting out and you have been crawling through mud to get just one client, saying no because you are picky is like starving and saying no to food.
 

LaneMan

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Oh, yeah. I know better too. But here's my example from last month:

A friend of mine, a property manager, ran into a jam with her usual cleaner, and, knowing I'm starting a booking agency for cleaners and other home services, reached out. Not having a team ready for her, I did two jobs myself, and *instead of doing a prepay, like I would for anyone else*, I invoiced her. Two weeks later, nothing. I text her, hey, did you get the invoices? Oh, yeah. Not going to pay until the empty rentals are rented and the apartment owner pays for the cleaning. WTH? How is that any way to run a business?

This is why I had the policy in place. Initial services are all prepaid, until we have a history of you paying. I let my standards slip one time, for a friend, and I'm out $600.

What kind of a friend is that!?
 

MJ DeMarco

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I once had a client who would call my support staff every month after billing. She would dispute and question every charge. Then sometimes she would escalate it to me "let me talk to the owner/manager" stuff.

After 3 months and hours of time spent with this woman, I finally asked my employee what her average bill was.

It was $12 f*cking bucks.

I wrote her a nice courtesy letter that in effect said, "You're fired."

Your $12 ain't worth 6 hours a month in support time.

And if you're wondering what the letter said, it basically stated that our company doesn't appear to be a fit for your needs.

Fire bullshit customers who pay more in bullshit than profits.
 

Raja

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I once had a client who would call my support staff every month after billing. She would dispute and question every charge. Then sometimes she would escalate it to me "let me talk to the owner/manager" stuff.

After 3 months and hours of time spent with this woman, I finally asked my employee what her average bill was.

It was $12 f*cking bucks.

I wrote her a nice courtesy letter that in effect said, "You're fired."

Your $12 ain't worth 6 hours a month in support time.

And if you're wondering what the letter said, it basically stated that our company doesn't appear to be a fit for your needs.

Fire bullshit customers who pay more in bullshit than profits.
is it good for beginners though?
 

Kevin88660

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I once had a client who would call my support staff every month after billing. She would dispute and question every charge. Then sometimes she would escalate it to me "let me talk to the owner/manager" stuff.

After 3 months and hours of time spent with this woman, I finally asked my employee what her average bill was.

It was $12 f*cking bucks.

I wrote her a nice courtesy letter that in effect said, "You're fired."

Your $12 ain't worth 6 hours a month in support time.

And if you're wondering what the letter said, it basically stated that our company doesn't appear to be a fit for your needs.

Fire bullshit customers who pay more in bullshit than profits.
I guess she is an elderly who uses complaints
as a mean to find people to talk to...
 

Summersalt

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Ever since I joined this forum, people have been telling to charge what I'm worth and work with good people.

Because I only just started working on my business after leaving the rat race, I lack the experience, so, a lot of mistakes were made and will continue to be made.

One of the worst mistakes I made was I undercharged, even worked for free, and chose to work with really bad people.

Today, I got the wake up call I deserve when a client outright disrespected me during a meeting.

I was doing really cheap programming work for this guy. I built him a really nice custom ecommerce site with a ton of fancy features just because I wanted such a project on my portfolio. I'm not even going to say how much he paid me because it's too embarrassing.

Today, this same guy, instead of being grateful, told me that I'm pretending to be a programmer. And you know why? I simply refused to add a complicated feature to his site for free. A feature that would take 2 months to implement.

And you know what happened? He and his business partners were laughing their a$$es out while I sat there with my dumb face wondering what I did wrong.

So, right there decided that I don't need this and I had done enough boot licking.

I multiplied my original embarassing price by 10 and told them it was going to cost this much and it's either take it or leave it. Obviously they didn't agree, so we're working on terminating our contract and I feel very happy.

Lesson learned: Just because you're a new business doesn't mean that you need to allow people to shit on you.
It's never easy handling clients because working with a large range of people exposes you to all kinds of character.
Some will be wonderful experiences, others will be bad.
Try to sniff out the ones you think you can't work with early enough.
There will always be signs. Don't ignore the signs.
Be quick to tell them no, that they are not a good fit for you and your organization, and move on to the next available person that needs your services.
Someone you can work with, and that will appreciate your efforts.
We've all been there...
 

Johnny boy

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Out of all people you come across in your business, employees and customers...

There’s a percentage who will pay you great money, cause no problems, be pleasant, etc.

There’s a percentage who will pay average, not cause too many problems, nothing special, etc.

And there’s a percentage who will be cheap, waste your time, piss you off, and make you think that you have a terrible business and should quit.

I think the ratio is around 1. 20% 2. 70% and 3. 10% but it can be different depending on your industry and how much you care about customer service in your business, but there’s still a ratio for each.

Go find groups one and two, and when you run into someone in the 3rd group, just move on and understand it’s them, not you.

I’ve been told I am a scumbag who should go out of business. I’ve been told I’m incompetent. I’ve been told I charge 3x what it’s worth.
I’ve been told I’m the best company they’ve ever worked with by a huge margin. I’ve been told I’m undercharging. I’ve been told we have amazing customer service. Which one of these people are right? None, it’s just someone’s opinion. I don’t care what anyone says, good or bad.

Stay focused, don’t be discouraged by shitty people, but set up systems that keep it from happening again.

Contracts, collecting payment info upfront, recurring services only, charging enough to factor in mistakes or coming back to fix things, etc. We don’t let anyone take advantage of us. We have zero unpaid invoices. In fact we’ve been paid for more work than we’ve done because customers who cancel pay a cancellation fee, so when we get a new customer signed up in their place, we still get paid that next month from the customer who cancelled.

But, when you’re first starting out, I recommend learning the lessons the hard way. Because you don’t know what terms and conditions matter in your business yet. You don’t know what the market is willing to accept yet. You don’t know anything yet, so go ahead and undercharge, don’t take any upfront payment, and say yes a lot, and then fix the problems when they come up.
 

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