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Contrarian Opinion Here: Money is no longer representative of Created Value

A post of a ranting nature...

spreng

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Apologies in advance if this ruffles feathers, and it probably should, but hear me out completely before you start seeing red.

For much of America's history, more often than not, men received money in return for services and for goods. Those who were the best at providing services or those who excelled in their craft at producing goods naturally became the most affluent. But over time, as generation passed wealth on to generation, something really f***ed up happened. Wealth became concentrated and controlled not by those who had fought for it, but it became largely controlled by those who had inherited it.

The historical ideal for a righteous ruler is the warrior king. The man who fought his way to the top and gives graciously back to the people because he is both wise and he is cogniscent of their struggles. The king that all people should fear, however, is the warrior king's son. He has had everything that his father never grew up with, and he knows nothing of struggle and he has neither empathy nor conviction to provide value.

I believe, what we are seeing today with large wealth concentrations in the hands of about 150 people is deeply emblematic of a weak society, molded by comfort and men having gotten high off of the tailwinds of a post world war 2 boom. The financial instruments created by wall street were derived as a means to create value without producing value, and as such money has lost its very legitimacy. This is why we see all of these alternative currencies popping up. Like MJ says in his book, the game is rigged. But the mediums in which people can escape this game through establishing businesses have all but disappeared as large monopolistic entities have taken market share of almost every domain. We see desperate "gurus" scamming and conning their way to fortunes, we see pump and dump schemes in stocks and crypto, and we find that a NJ deli that is not even hopen has a stock market valuation of $100 million (true story).

I work on wall street. I live in the city. And many of my friends work in private equity. Their jobs consist of buying businesses, eliminating redundant departments, saddling them up with debt which they can write off via tax loopholes, and then overhiring employees (who essentially don't have any work to do but showing headcount growth increases your EBITDA multiplier at exit). The best part, they assume NO RISK. That is the tradeoff entrepreneurs are supposed to take... risk/reward. How long can a country persist where the bulk of its money is made through cannibalizing businesses and using the government as a slush fund? Airlines have been bailed out 66 times since 2000. Every company in the city is in "hypergrowth", which is a fancy way of saying a ponzi scheme from series a to b to c to d.

We are in a glass house and the rest of the world is really pissed off from things we have done, and they have a lot of rocks.
 
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D

Deleted78083

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Yeah, I kinda agree.

I have a theory called "the wallstreetbetization of society". If you have been on the subreddit, you know what it means: money doesn't really matter, life is a meme, let's just pump that thing up and if it works, good, if it doesnt, well, YOLO.

This is how you end up with NFTs at 69 million USD.
 
D

Deleted70138

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Apologies in advance if this ruffles feathers, and it probably should, but hear me out completely before you start seeing red.

For much of America's history, more often than not, men received money in return for services and for goods. Those who were the best at providing services or those who excelled in their craft at producing goods naturally became the most affluent. But over time, as generation passed wealth on to generation, something really f***ed up happened. Wealth became concentrated and controlled not by those who had fought for it, but it became largely controlled by those who had inherited it.

The historical ideal for a righteous ruler is the warrior king. The man who fought his way to the top and gives graciously back to the people because he is both wise and he is cogniscent of their struggles. The king that all people should fear, however, is the warrior king's son. He has had everything that his father never grew up with, and he knows nothing of struggle and he has neither empathy nor conviction to provide value.

I believe, what we are seeing today with large wealth concentrations in the hands of about 150 people is deeply emblematic of a weak society, molded by comfort and men having gotten high off of the tailwinds of a post world war 2 boom. The financial instruments created by wall street were derived as a means to create value without producing value, and as such money has lost its very legitimacy. This is why we see all of these alternative currencies popping up. Like MJ says in his book, the game is rigged. But the mediums in which people can escape this game through establishing businesses have all but disappeared as large monopolistic entities have taken market share of almost every domain. We see desperate "gurus" scamming and conning their way to fortunes, we see pump and dump schemes in stocks and crypto, and we find that a NJ deli that is not even hopen has a stock market valuation of $100 million (true story).

I work on wall street. I live in the city. And many of my friends work in private equity. Their jobs consist of buying businesses, eliminating redundant departments, saddling them up with debt which they can write off via tax loopholes, and then overhiring employees (who essentially don't have any work to do but showing headcount growth increases your EBITDA multiplier at exit). The best part, they assume NO RISK. That is the tradeoff entrepreneurs are supposed to take... risk/reward. How long can a country persist where the bulk of its money is made through cannibalizing businesses and using the government as a slush fund? Airlines have been bailed out 66 times since 2000. Every company in the city is in "hypergrowth", which is a fancy way of saying a ponzi scheme from series a to b to c to d.

We are in a glass house and the rest of the world is really pissed off from things we have done, and they have a lot of rocks.
why would you care about other people having so much wealth, as long as your life is of higher quality than 99.9% of people in the history of humankind?
Though I find your perspective interesting, it still smells a bit like a greed.
 

spreng

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why would you care about other people having so much wealth, as long as your life is of higher quality than 99.9% of people in the history of humankind?
Though I find your perspective interesting, it still smells a bit like a greed.
You'll have to extrapolate on the greed part. I've given your comment thought and perhaps will need to think more on it to try and be open-minded about it. Initially, though, I think you may find utility in examining who that statement benefits and who it takes power away from.

As to the former point,
I care because of what happens when so much wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few. It typically leads to instability and war as evidenced by thousands of years of history where this exact scenario has played out. I'd like to see this country grow stronger and its people within it prosper more.
 
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DMNinja

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why would you care about other people having so much wealth, as long as your life is of higher quality than 99.9% of people in the history of humankind?
Though I find your perspective interesting, it still smells a bit like a greed.
I think that he's implying that although we strive to have a higher QoL, it's becoming harder and harder to get the same freedoms we used to enjoy because it feels like the world wants to actively cannibalize production. I also think that he's referring to the trend that upcoming businesses get gobbled up by monopolies. So there won't be options. Only megacorp X,Y,Z etc. I'll keep on observing this thread since I feel a related sentiment. But I might as well be feeding my negative thoughts on the matter.
 

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Those who were the best at providing services or those who excelled in their craft at producing goods naturally became the most affluent.

Not completely true. History has many examples of artist dying before their greatness was recognized. For much of history, "the crown" picked winner and losers, and often not by the ability of the worker.

Yeah, I kinda agree.

I have a theory called "the wallstreetbetization of society". If you have been on the subreddit, you know what it means: money doesn't really matter, life is a meme, let's just pump that thing up and if it works, good, if it doesnt, well, YOLO.

This is how you end up with NFTs at 69 million USD.

Also not a new phenomenon. Just one example...

But the mediums in which people can escape this game through establishing businesses have all but disappeared as large monopolistic entities have taken market share of almost every domain.

I think you have a myopic view of the world, and what's happening even on this very forum. Entreprenuership is not dead, nor have the tools been taken away.


I care because of what happens when so much wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few. It typically leads to instability and war as evidenced by thousands of years of history where this exact scenario has played out. I'd like to see this country grow stronger and its people within it prosper more.

Um, over a long enough timeline, everything leads to instability and war, as evidenced by thousands of years of history.

I also think that he's referring to the trend that upcoming businesses get gobbled up by monopolies.

Which sounds like an excellent path to Fastlane wealth generation, thus disproving the point that the keys are taken away from us.

-----

Ok, I have to get some work done. Thanks OP for starting the discussion, I've been giving this a lot of thought lately. I'll wrap with this thought...

I hear you about money. I currently feel about money the way I feel about democracy. Money is a terrible measure of true value, always has been, but it is better than just about any other measure of value we as a society(ies) have come up with.
 

spreng

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Not completely true. History has many examples of artist dying before their greatness was recognized. For much of history, "the crown" picked winner and losers, and often not by the ability of the worker.
Agreed, I'll concede on that.
I think you have a myopic view of the world, and what's happening even on this very forum. Entreprenuership is not dead, nor have the tools been taken away.

Well, I'd be quite interested to not have this viewpoint, as it obviously is not pleasant, so I'm open to convincing if you wish to extrapolate.
Um, over a long enough timeline, everything leads to instability and war, as evidenced by thousands of years of history.
Yes, there are certain triggers each time though.
I hear you about money. I currently feel about money the way I feel about democracy. Money is a terrible measure of true value, always has been, but it is better than just about any other measure of value we as a society(ies) have come up with.
I agree that it is the best. And I hope it course corrects.
 
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DMNinja

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Which sounds like an excellent path to Fastlane wealth generation, thus disproving the point that the keys are taken away from us.

I might have missed the point of the OP, but I felt like he was more worried that our fundamental freedoms are eroding. I'm personally engaging in a niche consulting business that adheres to CENTS rules, and I can see that It'll be a fast track.

I hear you about money. I currently feel about money the way I feel about democracy. Money is a terrible measure of true value, always has been, but it is better than just about any other measure of value we as a society(ies) have come up with.

The above statement might sound true, but there's the necessity to consider how corrections should be made in that case. I am Greek by birth, but I don't believe democracy is the best way to go. It can easily turn into the tyranny of the majority. And back in ancient times, the voting threshold was actually extraordinarily high. Not everyone could vote (even accounting for the demographics considered to be citizens of the state at the time). Those who did had actual skin in the game.

Democracy has changed. And if I were to take your statement as-is then it'd be a reasonable conclusion that money has also changed. But it's a thought exercise at best. What is important is to figure out how to improve upon what we have to work with.
 
D

Deleted70138

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You'll have to extrapolate on the greed part. I've given your comment thought and perhaps will need to think more on it to try and be open-minded about it. Initially, though, I think you may find utility in examining who that statement benefits and who it takes power away from.

I don't know where do your thoughts come from, but for me dissatisfaction about others decisions is always due to the lack of acceptance of the world, the way it is.
Why would you care about others having billions as long as you have millions. I don't think being a 2nd is really that bad.

As to the former point,
I care because of what happens when so much wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few. It typically leads to instability and war as evidenced by thousands of years of history where this exact scenario has played out. I'd like to see this country grow stronger and its people within it prosper more.
Can't argue with you here. Why would anybody have a war, other than for capturing or recapturing women, which is absolutely unnecessary in our times.
 

Kevin88660

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For much of America's history, more often than not, men received money in return for services and for goods. Those who were the best at providing services or those who excelled in their craft at producing goods naturally became the most affluent. But over time, as generation passed wealth on to generation, something really f***ed up happened. Wealth became concentrated and controlled not by those who had fought for it, but it became largely controlled by those who had inherited it.

The historical ideal for a righteous ruler is the warrior king. The man who fought his way to the top and gives graciously back to the people because he is both wise and he is cogniscent of their struggles. The king that all people should fear, however, is the warrior king's son. He has had everything that his father never grew up with, and he knows nothing of struggle and he has neither empathy nor conviction to provide value.

I believe, what we are seeing today with large wealth concentrations in the hands of about 150 people is deeply emblematic of a weak society, molded by comfort and men having gotten high off of the tailwinds of a post world war 2 boom.
There was an article on historical richest figures in United States. Used to be monopoly men in shipping, railroad and oil. Nothing too honorable compared to software or internet moguls today.

Dynastic wealth exist in English speaking countries they escaped the political turmoils related to wars and revolutions that ravaged many other societies.

As long as you have waves of new money (silicon valley, internet business, new energy and digital currency) coming in, I don’t think U.S. is a stagnant society.

Every industry has its own shares of stupidity, not just limited to private equity space. How many EV companies around the world are just scamming for government subsidies?
 
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hellolin

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How do you think the magical years for the average people after WW2 came about? That was also the age of monopiles, much like now. A nation of average people wanting above average welfare will get that, because only monopiles can deliver that kind of efficiency. Look at the voting blocs from both sides today, what do they want? More welfare and protection, depending on which side you belong to.
 

hellolin

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Apologies in advance if this ruffles feathers, and it probably should, but hear me out completely before you start seeing red.

For much of America's history, more often than not, men received money in return for services and for goods. Those who were the best at providing services or those who excelled in their craft at producing goods naturally became the most affluent. But over time, as generation passed wealth on to generation, something really f***ed up happened. Wealth became concentrated and controlled not by those who had fought for it, but it became largely controlled by those who had inherited it.

The historical ideal for a righteous ruler is the warrior king. The man who fought his way to the top and gives graciously back to the people because he is both wise and he is cogniscent of their struggles. The king that all people should fear, however, is the warrior king's son. He has had everything that his father never grew up with, and he knows nothing of struggle and he has neither empathy nor conviction to provide value.

I believe, what we are seeing today with large wealth concentrations in the hands of about 150 people is deeply emblematic of a weak society, molded by comfort and men having gotten high off of the tailwinds of a post world war 2 boom. The financial instruments created by wall street were derived as a means to create value without producing value, and as such money has lost its very legitimacy. This is why we see all of these alternative currencies popping up. Like MJ says in his book, the game is rigged. But the mediums in which people can escape this game through establishing businesses have all but disappeared as large monopolistic entities have taken market share of almost every domain. We see desperate "gurus" scamming and conning their way to fortunes, we see pump and dump schemes in stocks and crypto, and we find that a NJ deli that is not even hopen has a stock market valuation of $100 million (true story).

I work on wall street. I live in the city. And many of my friends work in private equity. Their jobs consist of buying businesses, eliminating redundant departments, saddling them up with debt which they can write off via tax loopholes, and then overhiring employees (who essentially don't have any work to do but showing headcount growth increases your EBITDA multiplier at exit). The best part, they assume NO RISK. That is the tradeoff entrepreneurs are supposed to take... risk/reward. How long can a country persist where the bulk of its money is made through cannibalizing businesses and using the government as a slush fund? Airlines have been bailed out 66 times since 2000. Every company in the city is in "hypergrowth", which is a fancy way of saying a ponzi scheme from series a to b to c to d.

We are in a glass house and the rest of the world is really pissed off from things we have done, and they have a lot of rocks.

Time to read that excellent book that came out this year, "Skin in the game".

I read it twice, first time ebook, second time I love it so much I bought a physical copy just to support the author.
 

BizyDad

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Well, I'd be quite interested to not have this viewpoint, as it obviously is not pleasant, so I'm open to convincing if you wish to extrapolate.

Well, you're a contrarian. Find the evidence that disproves this thesis of yours.

Look at global wealth statistics. Even on a per capita basis. If wealth is so centralized, how has the title of worlds richest person changed so much in the last 5 years? More than I ever remember.

Gates/Buffet/Slim/Bezos/Musk

Three of those control monopolistic-like enterprises, but 2 don't.

Read some gold threads on the forum for more real world examples of people boot strapping to success. There plenty who've "made it", and more on the way. No one has monopolized landscaping, plumbing, real estate investment, etc...

You live in a Wall Street world. You see evidence everywhere backing your viewpoint. And to a surgeon every solution requires a scalpel. But you can fix a lot just by choosing to eat healthy. Or eat less.

What you see is not the totality of life. It's just, as I said, a myopic view of the world. We all have them. The best way to overcome them, imo, is to travel. Hth.
 
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Pinnacle

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Apologies in advance if this ruffles feathers, and it probably should, but hear me out completely before you start seeing red.

For much of America's history, more often than not, men received money in return for services and for goods. Those who were the best at providing services or those who excelled in their craft at producing goods naturally became the most affluent. But over time, as generation passed wealth on to generation, something really f***ed up happened. Wealth became concentrated and controlled not by those who had fought for it, but it became largely controlled by those who had inherited it.

The historical ideal for a righteous ruler is the warrior king. The man who fought his way to the top and gives graciously back to the people because he is both wise and he is cogniscent of their struggles. The king that all people should fear, however, is the warrior king's son. He has had everything that his father never grew up with, and he knows nothing of struggle and he has neither empathy nor conviction to provide value.

I believe, what we are seeing today with large wealth concentrations in the hands of about 150 people is deeply emblematic of a weak society, molded by comfort and men having gotten high off of the tailwinds of a post world war 2 boom. The financial instruments created by wall street were derived as a means to create value without producing value, and as such money has lost its very legitimacy. This is why we see all of these alternative currencies popping up. Like MJ says in his book, the game is rigged. But the mediums in which people can escape this game through establishing businesses have all but disappeared as large monopolistic entities have taken market share of almost every domain. We see desperate "gurus" scamming and conning their way to fortunes, we see pump and dump schemes in stocks and crypto, and we find that a NJ deli that is not even hopen has a stock market valuation of $100 million (true story).

I work on wall street. I live in the city. And many of my friends work in private equity. Their jobs consist of buying businesses, eliminating redundant departments, saddling them up with debt which they can write off via tax loopholes, and then overhiring employees (who essentially don't have any work to do but showing headcount growth increases your EBITDA multiplier at exit). The best part, they assume NO RISK. That is the tradeoff entrepreneurs are supposed to take... risk/reward. How long can a country persist where the bulk of its money is made through cannibalizing businesses and using the government as a slush fund? Airlines have been bailed out 66 times since 2000. Every company in the city is in "hypergrowth", which is a fancy way of saying a ponzi scheme from series a to b to c to d.

We are in a glass house and the rest of the world is really pissed off from things we have done, and they have a lot of rocks.

As long as the person in the mirror is not perpetuating these things, society has a chance. Teach your kids how to fish, don't give them your stockpile. Teach them how to build a pipeline rather than giving them yours. If Cornelius Vanderbilt, for example, had any idea what his heirs would do to his fortune, I think he would've willed it all to charities.

Maybe if you are going to pass down the fruits of your blood, sweat and tears, make your kids get a job and learn good money management habits before releasing their inheritance to them. Maybe release that inheritance in installments or something.

I believe most of the folks on this forum are old-fashioned: they worked for their money whether that was in the rat race or on the fast track.

I have opinions about bootstrapped companies vs the ones profiled in most business magazines that grew by raising capital. Are you starting a start up or starting a business? There is a difference. I can't identify with startup founders, so I follow the people who had to stash portions of their paycheck away to start their business and had no choice but to grow it by getting customers instead of investors.
 

spreng

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Time to read that excellent book that came out this year, "Skin in the game".

I read it twice, first time ebook, second time I love it so much I bought a physical copy just to support the author.
Just ordered it
 

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Apologies in advance if this ruffles feathers, and it probably should, but hear me out completely before you start seeing red.

For much of America's history, more often than not, men received money in return for services and for goods. Those who were the best at providing services or those who excelled in their craft at producing goods naturally became the most affluent. But over time, as generation passed wealth on to generation, something really f***ed up happened. Wealth became concentrated and controlled not by those who had fought for it, but it became largely controlled by those who had inherited it.

The historical ideal for a righteous ruler is the warrior king. The man who fought his way to the top and gives graciously back to the people because he is both wise and he is cogniscent of their struggles. The king that all people should fear, however, is the warrior king's son. He has had everything that his father never grew up with, and he knows nothing of struggle and he has neither empathy nor conviction to provide value.

I believe, what we are seeing today with large wealth concentrations in the hands of about 150 people is deeply emblematic of a weak society, molded by comfort and men having gotten high off of the tailwinds of a post world war 2 boom. The financial instruments created by wall street were derived as a means to create value without producing value, and as such money has lost its very legitimacy. This is why we see all of these alternative currencies popping up. Like MJ says in his book, the game is rigged. But the mediums in which people can escape this game through establishing businesses have all but disappeared as large monopolistic entities have taken market share of almost every domain. We see desperate "gurus" scamming and conning their way to fortunes, we see pump and dump schemes in stocks and crypto, and we find that a NJ deli that is not even hopen has a stock market valuation of $100 million (true story).

I work on wall street. I live in the city. And many of my friends work in private equity. Their jobs consist of buying businesses, eliminating redundant departments, saddling them up with debt which they can write off via tax loopholes, and then overhiring employees (who essentially don't have any work to do but showing headcount growth increases your EBITDA multiplier at exit). The best part, they assume NO RISK. That is the tradeoff entrepreneurs are supposed to take... risk/reward. How long can a country persist where the bulk of its money is made through cannibalizing businesses and using the government as a slush fund? Airlines have been bailed out 66 times since 2000. Every company in the city is in "hypergrowth", which is a fancy way of saying a ponzi scheme from series a to b to c to d.

We are in a glass house and the rest of the world is really pissed off from things we have done, and they have a lot of rocks.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one. The game is rigged and we don't create much of anything anymore. Sure there are a few breakthroughs in medical and science but for the most part, it's about a startup showing growth even if that growth is paid for with VC money and the company will never be profitable. Someone else down the line will pay a premium for the shares, another VC, public shareholders via an IPO, and then we have companies that lose money but now have a huge capital war chest to go and buy other companies and squash the smaller companies.
 
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spreng

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As long as the person in the mirror is not perpetuating these things, society has a chance. Teach your kids how to fish, don't give them your stockpile. Teach them how to build a pipeline rather than giving them yours. If Cornelius Vanderbilt, for example, had any idea what his heirs would do to his fortune, I think he would've willed it all to charities.

Maybe if you are going to pass down the fruits of your blood, sweat and tears, make your kids get a job and learn good money management habits before releasing their inheritance to them. Maybe release that inheritance in installments or something.

I believe most of the folks on this forum are old-fashioned: they worked for their money whether that was in the rat race or on the fast track.

I have opinions about bootstrapped companies vs the ones profiled in most business magazines that grew by raising capital. Are you starting a start up or starting a business? There is a difference. I can't identify with startup founders, so I follow the people who had to stash portions of their paycheck away to start their business and had no choice but to grow it by getting customers instead of investors.
I like this take; it makes me optimistic. I think one of the ironic things about passing things down is that those who develop wealth often find more meaning in mentoring someone who came from nothing rather than their own children/grandchildren. This sort of generational dichotomy between new/old money has been written about extensively and is part of our human experience though.

As this next cycle begins, I think we will see a new generation of leaders who persevered through tough times and ultimately have the strength to create sensible foreign policy and rule justly. This next decade will be one of the most important inflection points in our lifetime.
 

spreng

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Time to read that excellent book that came out this year, "Skin in the game".

I read it twice, first time ebook, second time I love it so much I bought a physical copy just to support the author.
To follow up on this. I've been reading this book and holy shit, is it good. Going to order his volume 'concerto' and read through that. I wonder how many people read this book and take actionable steps to apply the knowledge. I imagine that most people purposely avoid reality because it's unpleasant and might force them to take risks. So it's funny that this book is out there yet we still have people who so violently advocate for conformity, but that seems to be the human default.
 

hellolin

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To follow up on this. I've been reading this book and holy shit, is it good. Going to order his volume 'concerto' and read through that. I wonder how many people read this book and take actionable steps to apply the knowledge. I imagine that most people purposely avoid reality because it's unpleasant and might force them to take risks. So it's funny that this book is out there yet we still have people who so violently advocate for conformity, but that seems to be the human default.

If you really work on wall street, then it should come easily: people wants a free lunch, except this universe does not offer that, but that sure is the fastest way to sell your products though...

Honestly I read all his other books, but this book really is not like the same. It is written in much more 'plain english' so to speak, without all the mathematical jargons.
 
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