Successful real estate investing

[GuestUser8117]

50 % of your success in real estate is based on how well you market your sales. The key here is to make a killer online presence. The other 50 % is the team you build and the actions you take. So what is your competitive advantage? Answer : The way you market your sales. All you need is a computer and a cellphone.

What you have to do is to develop strategic relationships and build the best team.
Who? Realtors, attorneys, accountants, mortgages brokers, insurance agents, private lenders and contractors.


Failure number 1 : Lack of consistent cashflow. These people above can help you get more organized in real estate investing.

4 keys to build wealth online (via facebook, craiglist, twitter,etc.) :

-Keywords(example :we buy houses cash)
-Email auto-responders
-Advertising
-Lead capture websites

Smart investors build a huge buyers list, that way the cashflow is more fluid. The key to your success is how fast you apply your learnings. And remember, knowledge alone does not attract money, you need to take action.

 

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[theag]

So, are you are successful real estate investor using your methods?

 

[Runum]

This is ok information but there are several different types of REI's. I do not have a huge buyers list and I do have great cashflow. I am a landlord. Most flippers and wholesalers are calling me trying to get me to buy their latest great catch.

 

[CashFlowDepot]

Sorry, I have to disagree. With almost 17 years of real estate investing experience, I can tell you that 50% of your success does NOT rely on a slick web site presence and 50% does not depend on your team.

The secrets to success are tenacity and the ability to put together creative deals.

Most investors look at a real estate problem and say they can't do anything to help a desperate seller. It's because the investors have 1 or 2 techniques or strategies that they go back to over and over again. If the "deal" does not fit one of these techniques, they are lost.

The the round peg in their square hole.

But an investor who spends the time to LEARN multiple creative ways to put deals together will always, always, be able to make money and generate cash flow. The more ways you learn to solve real estate problems, the more money you'll make.

Unfortunately, 99.9% real estate agents and attorneys also use the same square hold theory and don't know how to solve a unique real estate problem. I can't tell you how many times I've taken a hand written contract to the attorney at the title company and still had to explain to him many times how the deal was going to work. And real estate agents... well, if you're not paying all cash or getting bank financing then it is WAAAAYYYY over their head. They don't get it.

Agents are the biggest obstacle to success with real estate. They want you to pay as much as possible so their commission will be bigger. You need to pay as little as possible so you have a safe margin. That's a conflict of interest.

You'll do MUCH better dealing with the owner directly on properties which are NOT listed.

Success comes from talking belly to belly with sellers, not a high tech autoresponder system they are put in to after filling a form on your slick willy web site.

Real estate is a people business. Sellers and buyers want to talk to a REAL person who listens and cares about their situation.

 

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[GuestUser8117]

So, are you are successful real estate investor using your methods?

No, I am just sharing the knowledge I got from seminars and books.

 

[GuestUser8117]

Sorry, I have to disagree. With almost 17 years of real estate investing experience, I can tell you that 50% of your success does NOT rely on a slick web site presence and 50% does not depend on your team.

The secrets to success are tenacity and the ability to put together creative deals.

Most investors look at a real estate problem and say they can't do anything to help a desperate seller. It's because the investors have 1 or 2 techniques or strategies that they go back to over and over again. If the "deal" does not fit one of these techniques, they are lost.

The the round peg in their square hole.

But an investor who spends the time to LEARN multiple creative ways to put deals together will always, always, be able to make money and generate cash flow. The more ways you learn to solve real estate problems, the more money you'll make.

Unfortunately, 99.9% real estate agents and attorneys also use the same square hold theory and don't know how to solve a unique real estate problem. I can't tell you how many times I've taken a hand written contract to the attorney at the title company and still had to explain to him many times how the deal was going to work. And real estate agents... well, if you're not paying all cash or getting bank financing then it is WAAAAYYYY over their head. They don't get it.

Agents are the biggest obstacle to success with real estate. They want you to pay as much as possible so their commission will be bigger. You need to pay as little as possible so you have a safe margin. That's a conflict of interest.

You'll do MUCH better dealing with the owner directly on properties which are NOT listed.

Success comes from talking belly to belly with sellers, not a high tech autoresponder system they are put in to after filling a form on your slick willy web site.

Real estate is a people business. Sellers and buyers want to talk to a REAL person who listens and cares about their situation.

Thanks for the feedback buddy, good to know I'm wrong.

 

[hatterasguy]

No, I am just sharing the knowledge I got from seminars and books.

Hope you didn't pay much for it because its not worth a whole lot.

Internet what? I don't advertise at all, don't even have a website, but my company does just fine.

You don't advertise online for deals, all you get are bums trying to sell you crap, or when I was an agent about 10 calls a day trying to sell me BS leads. You want to get people to come search you out, and bring you deals, that's not easy, but its lucrative.

Lets look at an extreme example:

Do you think Trump tries all that Facebook crap? Well probably because he is a media whore, but guys like him who you haven't heard their names don't. But they can sit in their office all day long and have more lucrative deals come across their desks than someone sticking I buy crap home signs all over town sees in years. Its all about networking, and having a reputation of getting deals done.

 

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[DTS Ltd]

Reference:

Suggested sequence for reading my books for real estate investors by John T. Reed

 

[DTS Ltd]

More reference:

John T Reed @ NorCalREIA August 18, 2011 mpg - YouTube

 

[Runum]

keyshawn, why don't you share with us what you know of REI from Pakistan?

 

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[andviv]

Reference:

Suggested sequence for reading my books for real estate investors by John T. Reed

Seriously?

How can you seriously post this crap here?

This guy is recommending you read HIS books in a specific order. Each, by the way, will cost you $30.

Ultimate guru crap.

Oh, and I recall reading an interview with the guy.... he recognized he did not make big money with real estate, his money is made in the guru crap he sells.

Have you read his books?

Have you invested using his techniques?

 

[jsi808]

I'm a real estate broker in Hawaii who focuses on commercial but mainly apartments (multifamily) deals. Most of the guys I deal with are high net worth individuals but none of them started out that way. Most (if not all) started out small time. But one pattern I see with all of them is that the key is to build up a "war chest" of funds. Similarly to the MFL book, you can have a business that is cashflowing or you can cash out and have a war chest of funds. Most beginning investors get stuck in real estate because they wait for appreciation while having "some" positive cashflow (i.e. few hundred $$ / mo). I get it...you do need cashflow and can't take a negative every month but that's not the point I'm trying to make. If you want to make it in RE investing and you're starting off small, you need to be looking at flipping properties to build your cash. As stated earlier, many of my clients started off by flipping condo's, houses, etc. One in particular started off by making a $100k on a fixer upper house in a "so-so" area (this was in 2001). A few years earlier he was living out of his car since he was flat broker. He took that $100k profit, bought and sold, bought and sold. Fast forward to 2012, his portfolio is worth around $10MM. Is this the exception or the norm you may ask? Well, again, with the majority of the clients I work with, this is the norm. Money is made dynamically, not statically. Yes, you can gain appreciation by holding a property but you give up time. Here's the kicker in all of this. What I've realized is that the key to building fast wealth in RE comes down to 3 fundamentals.

#1 - You need the deals. The guys who are making the most money are the ones who are talking to ALL of the brokers who specialize in what they are looking for (i.e. condos, houses, apartments, warehouses, etc.). It's a weeding out process because not all the brokers you talk to / with are going to find you anything good. The really experienced ones will definitely qualify the heck out of you first and if you don't bite after a few tries, they may forget about you. When I first started off in the business, I was young and hungry for business. I pulled a list of every single apartment owner on the island (about 4000 owners) and over the course of the next 3 years I called (or at least attempted to call) each one. Yes, I got a ton of "No's" around (1000), a lot of ones I could not get in contact with (around another 1000), a lot of others who told me never to call them again (another 1000) but the remaining 1000 is where I've farmed and found countless deals. My suggestion is to talk to all the brokers you can and find the young and hungry ones to get going for you (for leads). You do need to be careful though because if they are inexperienced, they can jeopardize the deals but at least you have something to go after.

#2 - You need to be able to ACT fast on these deals. This means, having your financing in place. Either be qualified already or have enough cash where you KNOW it's not going to be an issue. In this market, I require my clients to have a minimum of $500k in cash or I don't work with them. YOU not your broker also needs to know how to navigate through the contracts intelligently. I see it too many times...investors are so scared just submitting an offer that they are beat out even before they start. The great deals (the ones where you will make a ton of money) aren't a dime a dozen so you need to be prepared to act. If you know your rights in the contracts (i.e. what contingencies you have to get out, when, etc.) you don't have to worry about things. Case in point...most of my guys will write their offers ALL CASH. Say we are offering on a $2MM apartment building and it's an all cash deal. Does all cash mean that you have to bring in $2MM in cash at closing? No it doesn't! All it means is that the deal is NOT contingent upon financing - meaning that if we don't get approved for the loan we still have the ability to close. Again, going back to the 2nd point, that is why you need to have everything lined up PRIOR (you don't have to have the loan approved - but you do know that you are qualified enough to get it without any problems). Is it a risk? Yes, to a certain extent. But again, you need to know your way around the contracts.

#3 - You need to Exit - How do you exit? Easy...you need to know the market. The old saying, money is made when you buy not when you sell is a truism in RE investing. You can't guess...you need to KNOW that you can flip the property and make your money. Most of my clients will not do a deal if the ROE (return on equity) is less than 25% in 1 year. In other words, if they put a $400k down payment, they expect at least a $100k profit. PROFIT...meaning less commissions, closing costs, rehab fees, etc.

I know some may think...yeah...duh! But in reality, you'd be surprised how many "investors" just don't get it. The other thing is that every market is different so I can't speak for any other market than Hawaii but I'm sure these 3 points are fundamental where ever you go. All are pretty important but if it was up to me...I'd stick with #1 - He who controls the deals, controls the market.

 

[andviv]

First, welcome to the fastlane forum.

I love your post... and I hope you continue to contribute here.

If you want to make it in RE investing and you're starting off small, you need to be looking at flipping properties to build your cash.

Very interesting argument... How are your clients doing it starting from scratch or limited funds?

One in particular started off by making a $100k on a fixer upper house in a "so-so" area (this was in 2001). A few years earlier he was living out of his car since he was flat broker. He took that $100k profit, bought and sold, bought and sold. Fast forward to 2012, his portfolio is worth around $10MM.

That period of time includes the bubble. How is the market for flips today in your area?

with the majority of the clients I work with, this is the norm.

Are you doing the same then?

In this market, I require my clients to have a minimum of $500k in cash or I don't work with them.

What is the average price per unit in your area for classes A, B and C?

Please do tell us about the last 2 or 3 deals you helped close.

How do you exit? Easy...you need to know the market.

How long, in average, takes to sell properties these days?

I really like the information you have provided here....

Are you also investing?

What type of deals are you making personally?

Again, welcome to the faslane forum. Looking forward to your reply.

 

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[jsi808]

Thanks for the reply Andiv. To answer your questions:

1. Most started off small (i.e. condo's, houses, etc.) granted they had to start off in C or D areas as prices tended to be much lower. Several of them actually got into different day jobs. For example, one sold wine (stocking in stores) and then went out to become a financial planner. He accumulated stocks, sold that in 99 and bought his first building and never looked back from there.

2. Flips in my market today are as just as hot as ever. Granted, Hawaii is a unique market to be in. There are a handful of "players" and "brokers" who are super active in the multifamily market and almost control / trade 30-50% of the total market volume on a annual basis. Keep in mind too that our market isn't huge. For example, our total $$ volume is less than $100MM a year (excluding when the institutional buyers make acquisitions as their volume can be in the $10MM to $50MM+ range - however, this has been only a few times in the past 10 years) Another prime example...one of my clients did around $35MM in buy / sell in 2010. Total market volume that year was around $80MM. (No, I didn't do the entire $35MM with him).

3. Class A - $150k to $225k per door, Class B - $125k - $150k, Class C/D - $60k - $100k per door. (The lower end range is for 1 bed / higher end is for 2 bed)

4. Just closed a deal earlier last week. Picked up 5 units for $950k, back on the market 5 days ago for $1.25MM. Already got a $1.2MM offer in hand, 40% down - entry buyer coming out of a 1031 exchange from a SFH. The $950k was an off market deal. Closed a deal in January, rehab, bought 8 units for $690k rehabbed for $200k (contractor buyer), sold for $1.3MM. Same contract had deal in 2011 - 17 units for $1.2MM (building was totally vacant for 10 years), started doing rehab and 3 months later got unsolicited offer for $1.52MM. Sold it. 2010, Client picked up 16 units - $2.7MM sold 1 year later $3.1MM. Again, not uncommon. I should note that ALL the deals were off market on the buy and "on"market on the sell. Obviously, the guys who made the money, did it on the buy side.

5. Average time to sell property varies depending on the product but most of my clients try to hold at least 1 year unless they can 1031 out to another property (don't want to pay short term gains). They usually wait about 4-6 months to put it on the market (except for the last guy who bought the 5 units for $950k...he put in on literally the same day we recorded). The unique thing about our market is that inventory is pretty limited now and there are a ton of entry level guys wanting to buy stuff. That's why there are tons of opportunities for short term holders.

6. I have / am investing...usually I'll take minority positions with my cilents using my commission. However, I've noticed more and more of them have started not wanting that (all getting greedy nowadays). So I'm starting to raise my own funding / capital with some smaller investors but am still looking to raise more. To be good, you need $500k...to be great and really compete you need at a least $1MM. The most I've raised is around $300k so I've got a bunch of work to do still. I stick to apartments / multifamily because that is what I do and what I know best. I've looked at some SFH and condo's but never pulled the trigger. I know...I should start small but my market is apartments...and I KNOW how to make money in that market. I would be semi-guessing with SFH / condo's unless it is blatantly clear...not to mention all my apt deals I source are off market so I'm not really competing.

Thanks for the well wishes. Love to continue to contribute.

 

[DeletedUser2]

Smart investors build a huge buyers list, that way the cashflow is more fluid. The key to your success is how fast you apply your learnings. And remember, knowledge alone does not attract money, you need to take action.

Guys, this guru regurgitation does not make a good post.

I mean REALLY? you could get that from the FLYER that was selling you the crappy seminar.

here is the thing. If you post crap like this on the forum, dont be surprised when your jumped, and gang beaten with a wet noodle from the people here.

If your going to do real estate, tell us of your fears, and how you overcame them, tell us of how you plan to get to where your going and with which strategy?

Tell us, of what you learned in the field NOT in a class room.
we can all get that from the sound bites, youtube junk, and Pay per click ads. if you want respect from the forum, tell us your barriers and maybe we can suggest a way around them. tell us you tried, failed and are out to try again!

If you come here thinking your going to "teach" other people what you learned in a class room. your in the wrong place. because there are real investors here who DO this stuff. (im one of them) Cashflowdepot is one, Runnum is one, these are EXPERIENCED people. USE our knowledge, as a reference, use our experience to solve your own hurdles, or to get insight into whats not working.

Guru regurgitation just isnt a option here.

Let me ask you this. Why haven't you gone out and bought your own 1st deal yet? START THERE> we all had to.

now that's something I would rather hear about.

Z

 

[NJRealEstate]

I stick to apartments / multifamily because that is what I do and what I know best. I've looked at some SFH and condo's but never pulled the trigger. I know...I should start small but my market is apartments...and I KNOW how to make money in that market. I would be semi-guessing with SFH / condo's unless it is blatantly clear...not to mention all my apt deals I source are off market so I'm not really competing.

What are the key differences you look for between apartments and sfh's? I currently am flipping sfh's trying to build enough capital to start to purchase large cash flow buildings.
Houses seem easier as you are selling to retail buyers who are buying on an emotional attachments to the property (i.e granite counters, stainless steel appliances, and a shiny backslash), where buyers of apartment buildings are looking at the numbers. It would seem more difficult to re-position a building especially if there are current tenants that you have to work around?

What sort of renovations are contractors doing on these buildings? How are they adding value, or are they getting for appreciation from unsophisticated new investors who are willing to pay more?

 

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[jsi808]

What are the key differences you look for between apartments and sfh's? I currently am flipping sfh's trying to build enough capital to start to purchase large cash flow buildings.
Houses seem easier as you are selling to retail buyers who are buying on an emotional attachments to the property (i.e granite counters, stainless steel appliances, and a shiny backslash), where buyers of apartment buildings are looking at the numbers. It would seem more difficult to re-position a building especially if there are current tenants that you have to work around?

What sort of renovations are contractors doing on these buildings? How are they adding value, or are they getting for appreciation from unsophisticated new investors who are willing to pay more?

Apartments IS a pure #'s game, more so than SFH and obviously less emotional. However, you hit it perfectly. We are essentially targeting two separate markets. One is the consumer / retail buyer, most of the time which is a homeowner (not so much investor). So there is much more emotion as well as having a lot larger base of buyers. The other is the investor base. Within that investor base there is also sub-markets (in terms of buyers). In our market, we call the entry level investors in the apartment market those who go after deals under $1.5MM. That market right now is really active because a lot of the investors stepping out of buying / selling SFH are looking now into apartments. They usually have between $200k - $400k in cash. When you get into the $2MM range, you deal with a little more sophisticated investor and when you break $4MM+, it is another level of investor (typically those who have over $1MM in cash - those folks usually EXPECT higher levels of returns. For example, they'll want a 7% Cap vs. the investor buying a $1.5MM building is buying at a 3% or 4% Cap.) One of the key differences viewed is scalability (Keep in mind that in Hawaii, the median price of a SFH is around $600k now) so when we talk about buying a $600k SFH or an apartment complex with much more units (i.e. 6-8), yes you may pay double or more (i.e. $1.2MM - $1.5MM) but you are getting that many more units to scale. For example, a $50 rent bump across the board vs. raising rent over a single unit in a SFH. The other difference is stability. Again, you loose 1 tenant out of 8, you'll still be okay. But if you loose 1 tenant and they are your only tenant, you start taking a negative pretty quickly trying to pay your debt service.

In terms of repositioning, not too many of the deals we do are rehabs...most of the time it's cleaning up the operations of the property and doing minor value add. For example, raising rents, cutting expenses (i.e. bidding out insurance, renegotiating prop mgmt fees, etc.) The physical value adds are mostly paint exterior - interior will be flooring and paint. Rarely do I see guys go full blown with brand new cabs, counters, flooring, fixtures, etc. because they are looking short term (i.e. less than 2 years) hold and the capital outlay will not justify the immediate return from the bump in rents. The exception to this is if the unit is really in bad shape then they'll gut it and do it over. But the real value add is in the fact that when they buy, they buy the property already heavily discounted from what market is. Most of the time, they could buy a building not do a single thing to it and could still sell it and make a profit. That is where the true value is (on the buy not the sell) How are they getting the "new investors" to pay more? Best way to explain is that they are buying at a wholesale price and reselling the properties at a retail price. Which is why I eluded in my original post that these investors are SUPER active sourcing deals with as many brokers as possible. It's a form of human leverage...where a principal will call me and five other brokers up and say, "I got $2MM in cash and I'm ready to buy something now. What do you got?" So in effect, this principal has 5 guys hunting for him for the best deal.

 

[GuestUser8117]

Guru regurgitation just isnt a option here.

Let me ask you this. Why haven't you gone out and bought your own 1st deal yet? START THERE> we all had to.

now that's something I would rather hear about.

Z

Alright I hear you. The fact is I have no money, but when I'll be able to save up some cash, don't worry I'll take action.

 

[DeletedUser2]

Alright I hear you. The fact is I have no money, but when I'll be able to save up some cash, don't worry I'll take action.

I bought my first house when I had no money,

I bought my first apartment complex when I had even less money

not a valid excuse.

 

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[The-J]

No money, so you don't buy apartments. No money, so you don't start a business. What are you saying? You are just full of limited beliefs. That's all I see you post, besides rehashed guru shit that you're using to fish for speed.

I have no money either but I work on my business daily. Business doesn't care whether you have money or not: just if you're serving customers better than anyone else around. It don't care that you took out a loan to float you for the first month, or the first year. It don't care that your credit is dried up completely. It don't care that you had to save your change in a jar so you could deposit them at the bank just so you could pay to start your business (personal sh*t right here). Don't care if you're eating Kraft dinner and ramen noodles for sustenance, don't care if your wife and kids leave you, business just DON'T CARE.

Get rid of those 'I can't do it because bla bla bla' shut up, you can do it. All of our members started with no money. MJ had $900 going to Phoenix and some $400 had to go to his rent; the rest to a mattress, a blanket, food and gas for his car. Jack was working 100 hours a week supporting his family when he started his first business. Rickson9 worked nonstop, no breaks, on a doomed business for years.

The beginning sucks. You're going to be broke and anxious and sad and lonely and scared. That's just part of the package. Whether it's buying real estate (you're probably gonna lose thousands) or starting a Fastlane (you're probably gonna lose months of your life... and thousands). So you better decide right F*ckin now if you're gonna work hard, if you're gonna do the research, if you're gonna take action, if you're gonna deal with the feelings of anxiety and fear and loneliness, because if you're not, you'll never be rich.

If you're really interested in real estate, look up Barbara Corcoran's story. Anyone who has ever lived in Manhattan knows who she is.

 

[andviv]

I bought my first house when I had no money,

I bought my first apartment complex when I had even less money

Please do tell!

pretty please???

 

[PopEmersen]

Please do tell!

pretty please???

I second that.

 

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[NJRealEstate]

hose folks usually EXPECT higher levels of returns. For example, they'll want a 7% Cap vs. the investor buying a $1.5MM building is buying at a 3% or 4% Cap

At 3 or 4% cap would they not be actually losing money after debt service? I see lots of things in my area offered at 5-7% and people actually buying, and I can't understand why they would park their $$ and assume the risks for essentially a 1-3% return after debt service coverage. In NYC I cant seem to find anything higher than a 5% cap. What is the appeal of these properties to the buyers? Is there something I am missing on how to play up to larger buildings? Why not just keep flipping sfh or doing whatever you do that you got the money to put down in the first place?

 

[Chitown]

JSI808,

Your post is spot on.

In the Los Angeles area, where I reside, brokers expect appreciation to suffice -- and for a certain type of investor it does. However, for a new guy like myself cash flow is paramount. Recently, a broker showed me a $3,500,000 property that would break even, at best. When I voiced my concern she casually stated -- and I quote -- "You don't buy for cashflow. You buy for appreciation."

Were I collecting a $210,000 commission check, I wouldn't give a damn about "cashflow" either.

Speed++ on your post.

 

[Chitown]

The-J,

Speed++

I'm dealing with that exact scenario, right now.

A product I was going to license and sell through direct mail is off the table -- the creator is getting divorced! His lawyer told him don't sign anything with anybody. I was looking forward to investing profits in some real estate deals I have access to.

Speaking of real estate, last week I had a financier get cold feet and pull his funds right before I made an offer to acquire a tear down and put up a bigger, nicer house to sell. He only wants to float 6 month paper which is basically a rehab loan. Another investor swooped in and snatched the deal.

I'm not crying about it -- that's business. I'll deal with the slings and arrows and keep on keeping on.

 

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[Rickson9]

My guess for raising capital when you have none is JV/LP, bird dogging or RE options.

I personally wouldn't invest at a true 7% cap. That's just too thin.

 

[jsi808]

At 3 or 4% cap would they not be actually losing money after debt service? I see lots of things in my area offered at 5-7% and people actually buying, and I can't understand why they would park their $$ and assume the risks for essentially a 1-3% return after debt service coverage. In NYC I cant seem to find anything higher than a 5% cap. What is the appeal of these properties to the buyers? Is there something I am missing on how to play up to larger buildings? Why not just keep flipping sfh or doing whatever you do that you got the money to put down in the first place?

NJ

The guys who are buying at 3 or 4 Caps are not any of the investors I represent (unless they are flipping the property). They are usually the guys trading up out of SFH or (at least here in HI) are sitting on some cash and rather park it into RE vs banks. What is the appeal? Nothing, in my opinion. They are just getting bad advice all around and don't know the game well enough to make $$$ here. So they bank on appreciation but I've recently seen guys who bought a few years ago sell now and barely break even. Maybe they found higher returns else where...

As to them not being able to debt service...yes, the margins are thin. I know the debt service ratios aren't being hit from the loan side but what's happening now with the dirt low rates is that a lot of entry level guys are pulling lines from their homes at 1% interest rates (for the next year or so) and leveraging to buy smaller income property. Then think they are getting out of the rat race by doing this but it's going to have the opposite effect when rates jump and they are going to have to keep their day job to cover the negatives. Disaster coming....

 

[jsi808]

Alright I hear you. The fact is I have no money, but when I'll be able to save up some cash, don't worry I'll take action.

One idea for you is the bird dog idea. I met a developer once who told people, find me a deal (he gave criteria) and I'll do the development and finance but I'll give 33% to you of the profits for bringing me the deal. Several people made some quick cash from the developer that way. Win/win for all. There are tons of ways to add value and make $$$ with no money.

 

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[Rickson9]

Rates may stay in the crapper for awhile...

 

[DeletedUser2]

Please do tell!

pretty please???

Ok ok. I'll try to lay it out this weekend

Z