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Ethics: Good Business vs Bad Business

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GuestUser112

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Now, I might catch some flak from some people who think ethics aren't important when it comes to the pursuit of the dollar.

F*ck them.

This post was inspired by a thread I recently viewed about some douchebag named Anton who made up a bunch of lies about himself and how he made money in order to make more money through blogging and the like: https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...e-fail-of-epic-proportions.56376/#post-415960

You who are reading this, let's pretend for a second that you are a billionaire. You've decided that you've made enough money, and you don't want to spend any more seconds of life chasing money because that's what you've done for the last ten-plus years, and while it has definitely paid off, now all you want to do is enjoy life.

What would you do next? Probably go jetskiing, right? Or clubbing, or maybe get a whole bunch of hookers and cocaine...

What is 'fun' for you? Is it what the media tells you it is? Or do you have your own definition?

What I'm talking about is the difference in satisfaction from getting a "HEADSHOT" in Counter-Strike (remember that?) compared to the satisfaction of working out so goddamn hard that when you finish you can't even move but you've got a big smile on your face because you know you pushed yourself to your absolute limit.

Now lets relate this to business. Many people might like to think that what Anton did was a 'cool, smart way to make money'. Just like people think that Ponzi schemes are great if you're the perpetrator, because they make a lot of money. If you think that, then you're very confused and you should read on (rather, read what better men than I have to say about this below)

Lets say I have this product. It's a really shitty product, but it's the only one I have. I created it myself in a couple hours because I want to make money (hey, couple hours, TIME is part of CENTS, right? Not bad!) as fast as possible. Now I want to sell this product, but I have a problem: if I'm completely honest in my copywriting and sales tactics, people will know the product is garbage and they won't buy it. So I 'stretch' the truth a bit and try to write the 'best' (notice quotation marks) copy I can in order to convince people to buy as fast as possible. And it works! I sell millions practically overnight!!! Yayyyyy!!!!

Of course, once the reviews about the product come out, nobody ever wants to buy it again. But I made a whole bunch of money so who cares, right? Satisfaction level: 10, right?

Perhaps by your standards. Rewind!

Lets say I have a shitty product. And then I throw it in the garbage, where it belongs. I've just learned that it takes more than a couple hours to make something good, and I decide that I've going to make a great product and put in as many hours, days, or weeks as it demands until it reaches a standard high enough for me to say: "Damn, I've made a damn fine product. Let's see what the market thinks". So I do that, and then I say that, 18 months later.

So I write some copy. And since my product is amazing, all I want to do is show people how great it is! So I be as honest as possible, explaining how months of rigorous work and care went into crafting this product. But I want the copy to be awesome too, just like my product. So I spend a lot of time trying to develop the perfect balance between something brief and powerful and something informative. And when I write the final slogan for the product, the USP, I say, "Damn, that's a damn fine slogan".

Then I put it on the market. And it sells a dozen practically overnight! Yayyyy!

And then, as the weeks go by, I sell hundreds, then thousands, and by the end of the year I've made hundreds of thousands! Satisfaction level? 10 out of 10, and I don't have to ask...

That is, until I decide I want to do better. Make something better. I want to make the best goddamn Jet Engine that's ever been made now.

Back to the point. Both Satisfaction levels were 10, right? But what kind of person would you rather be? Which 10 would you rather have?

Because the latter is made of Gold, and the former is made of dirt.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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Now, I might catch some flak from some people who think ethics aren't important when it comes to the pursuit of the dollar.

You won't from me. This forum is about 1/2 the size it should be because many are willing to compromise "ethics" over cash.
 
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Digamma

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I agree with you, but not for a moral reason.

As far as I'm concerned, there are two reasons why I'm not gonna go around scamming people selling junk.

First, I don't find it satisfying. I like the pleasure of a job well done. I like making something that has value, solving a problem.
I can't bring myself to release a sub par product. I tried. I lose sleep over it.
Push comes to shove, if I have to scam people online I'll just become a con man and at least have fun with it in real life.

Second, and most important, it's bad business.
You might make a few bucks, but when the smoke and mirrors are out, you need to pick up your crap and leave, like a snake oil salesman.

Which means that you might have great launches, even a series of them, but you will never manage to make a business that can grow enough to become life changing. A business that makes 100k is worth more than ten 10k businesses, because growth compounds.
You can make a 10k launch a week, but selling a little more every week is better.
 
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AllenCrawley

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I agree and it's because it's the right thing to do.

This goes beyond a crap product vs. a quality product.

You can have a good product and market it unethically.

You can have a good product and have despicable billing practices.

You can have a good product and have the Attorney General knocking down your door.
 

RHL

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You won't from me. This forum is about 1/2 the size it should be because many are willing to compromise "ethics" over cash.

Damnation that sucks. F--k thieves.
 
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AllenCrawley

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Damnation that sucks. F--k thieves.
Oh it goes well beyond the thieves we all know too well. What I believe MJ is referring to here is that those that left feel the ends justify the means. Get that money no matter the costs and when we take a stand against it they leave.
 

RHL

The coaching was a joke guys.
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Mattie

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compromise "ethics" over cash.

This is what I see going on every where on the internet all over the globe. It's tough to stay true to your ethics, Authentic and genuine is the only way I need to be or want to be. While others may succeed for the moment because they're stealing, cheating, bashing, and being attention seekers, I don't see how that is going to stay for the long haul. It might work for the moment, but if you don't have a strong foundation to begin with, it's just going to collapse at some point.
 
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Formless

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It's probably a lot easier to do good business in the long run.

Why?

There is no free lunch. Everything in life will come to collect. The coffee that gave you energy will be followed by a crash. The loan that gave you cash will have to be repaid. And the customer that has been F*cked will respond in kind. Always. It is only a matter of time.

Can you find anomalies where this doesn't apply? Yeah, but for the most part, it's real, and it is not worth the future headache.

And the headache will come, make no mistake.
 

Kak

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Do it right. From the beginning.

I can't stress this enough.

Most ponzi schemers out there have something in common... They never intended to hurt people even though they do. These are people who thought they could cover the bet. These are people who thought they were one deal away from fixing everything...

Build a foundation around business ethics. Never even give the snowball a chance to form. If you have to false advertise to sell your product you are basically stealing.
 
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Vigilante

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I have an acquaintance that is in prison. Once upon a time, I could have called him a friend. But the guy that is in prison is not the friend I had. That's a different guy. Same name, same body. But different guy. I don't have friends like him.

It wasn't from one event.

It was from a series of little choices, that over time added up.

The snowball got bigger as it rolled down the hill, and eventually it got so big it swallowed up entire towns.

It started on one day, with one choice, to compromise integrity.

I am sure for him that on the first day, it was an ethical dilemma.

He had to make a choice.

On that very first day, he intentionally chose money over ethics.

Then, from that day forward, he kept choosing that.

Always thought he could beat the system. Always thought nobody knew.

Always thought he could cover his bets.

The bad choice from that first day? Once he tipped over the first domino, it wasn't that hard to do it again.

Does it matter if you steal $20 or $20,000,000? It's the same thing.

If you steal $20 today, what difference does it make if tomorrow you do it again, but the stakes increase?

I don't like money that much. In fact, the moral dilemma is not a gray line. In almost all cases, it is a clear cut, black and white absolute.

If you are ever in doubt, give the ethical path the nod. If you ever have a question, run AWAY from the line, not towards it.

My acquaintance? He''ll never see the sun again as a free man.

And it all started...

one day...

with one little decision...

(seriously, the day can be pinpointed)...

to compromise integrity for money.

We all have choices to make. We're the sum total of all the choices we make. Dipping your toes across the line may seem sexy. It may seem easy.

Ask my acquaintance. He has to answer you from the 10x10 cell he carries around in his mind, and his heart. He'll never escape it, physically or mentally.

Game. Over.
 

Vigilante

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We threw out 800 units of a product a few years ago.

I could have sold it. People would have purchased it.

I knew what was wrong with it. They didn't.

The manufacturer bailed.

It wouldn't have affected all of them.

But it would have affected some of the people that bought it.

We could have sold it. It did what we said it would do.

I could have made a bunch of money on it.

But there was a hidden problem.

They literally ended up in a land fill.

It cost me several thousand dollars, money that wasn't easy at the time.

But... I sleep well.

Buying several thousand dollars worth of sheets and pillows with that money wouldn't help me at 3AM had I kept the money and shipped the product.
 
G

GuestUser112

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I don't like money that much.

I love money itself for what it represents. Wealth could not exist without production. I like to think of the big things when wealth becomes toxic in my mind. Railroads, bridges, trains, airplanes, gigantic ships...some of the amazing things that humans have built and when somebody builds something like that, they usually get quite rich doing it.

Money is very fluid though and so sometimes it can change hands so easily and without any significant thinking or effort. It can be easily stolen from men who deserve it by those who do not, and can drive corrupt men to further and further corruption. This I don't like.

But it can only exist through the efforts of men who wish to produce, who see poverty and primitive technology and decide "We can do better". So for that reason it deserves to be respected.
 
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Mattie

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And that's exactly why some people I've walked away from in life that do business and unethically and not one to jump on the band wagon. "Lone Ranger" And fortunately in my situation back home I could have done lots of things illegally and got myself in trouble many times. People don't understand why I wouldn't do anything to survive and while I faced hardships I rather have suffered where I was versus doing something that would get me in trouble or jeopardize my future.

While I might have been alone and cramming my brain and facing obstacles I held to my values, morals, and fortunately it paid off to get me to the Netherlands. There's always away out, but unethical ways aren't my thing. Not to mention I had a son watching me. My example sets an example for him during his own hardships. While sure it would have been easy to drink, use drugs, prostitute, steal, like so many other people in my neighborhood, I just stayed inside and learned what I needed to know to get to this point.

Things are very tempting in circumstances under pressure more than now. And interesting I was just thinking about this the other day. I'm not under the extreme pressure and stress as I once was and at this point in time, I see many opportunities I could easily take that wrong road still now. I could easily even say I'm just delaying my progress, or being introvert, but I know it's because doing certain things aren't the right choice. There's a time when the right moment arrives and in the right place with the right people.

I may get tired in certain moments. For the most part that is what it is just for the moment. Pretty much it's learning and applying right now. Experimenting and tweaking. Ha Ha, I know I've been on horses lately, but it's like that for me you ride with the pack until you're better to ride upfront and lead. I suppose in away I use it for visualization. You can't become the best without running with the best. Accountability to stay afloat and in the right direction. The tracks change every once in awhile, the faces, and teachers change, but it's worth it in the end I believe.
 

BeDoHave

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Coincidence. Today I had the choice to compromise my ethics for money. I'm in the process of starting a few different ventures and need some cash to get them going - so I applied for a few sales jobs. Last night one of the companies gave me a call telling me to come in for an interview/ trial today so I showed up bright and early. To my surprise the owners were running a boiler room (took me a while to actually figure that out). They were selling people a service they didn't need, charging them 20x what the service should actually costs, making false promises and just flat out lying.

After about 20 minutes of being there on a 'trial' I began to feel really uncomfortable and I ended up just walking out. If I'm honest it was actually hard for me to walk out - they were going to pay me a monthly salary of £1,600 + Commission (pretty decent for a 16 year old) - which would actually mean I would only need to work for around 2 months to be able to fund my ventures. But if I have to lie, steal and cheat in order to do that then I'm not interested. I'd much rather earn the money honestly - even if it takes me 6 months instead of 2.
 

Mr.B

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Damn, that's a damn fine post.

You know it's good when you get to use damn twice in a sentence! Thanks for writing this post, I agree wholeheartedly that ethics is essential in business and know that @Vigilante is right when he says that it all starts with one little decision.

I used to steal a lot when I was a kid. Not because I needed the money or the crap I brought with it, but because I enjoyed the thrill and thought I could get away with it. I'd steal from shops, I'd steal from my parents' business, I'd steal from my friends...

I still remember the day that my Dad caught me. The look of disappointment on his face still makes me cry today. I was 15.

He told me that I was capable of achieving anything that I focused on, but that if I achieved it dishonestly that not only would the achievement be worthless, but that I would be worthless.

He knew exactly how much I'd stolen from him. He had been watching the money, cigarettes, food, etc. disappear from his shop, he just didn't know which kid was stealing from him and I think on some level, he didn't want to believe that any of us would take from him when he had already given us everything.

It took me a long time to pay him back, but when I did, he forgave me. I am forever grateful that I had that chance to redeem myself.

Now, whenever I have an ethical choice to make, I just picture the look of disappointment on his face and I know what I need to do.
 
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G

GuestUser112

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I still remember the day that my Dad caught me. The look of disappointment on his face still makes me cry today. I was 15.

He told me that I was capable of achieving anything that I focused on, but that if I achieved it dishonestly that not only would the achievement be worthless, but that I would be worthless.

I just want to take this moment to thank MJ DeMarco for giving me the opportunity to connect with such a fine bunch of fellows as you guys. I'm proud to be able to communicate with such people.
 

Mr.B

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I'm proud to be able to communicate with such people.

agreed___by_jroekneere-d59kk7b.gif


Agreed 100%
 

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I stick to creating entertainment.

It's the only thing that is pure to me. Like 95%+ of all businesses are unnethical in one way or another. I even mentioned this to my friend. He was like. "I find you a business that isn't unnethical in any way."

Last time I met him. I asked him about that. And he hadn't come up with anything. LOL.

What I am talking about is like:

Cars, kills people.
Alchool, kills your liver and gets people addicted.
Clothes: Slave like working conditions in Asia with low salary. Or clothes that are made to get torn after a year or two. (Low quality.)
Computer games: Could make you addicted.

Etc. Etc.

Can anyone come up with a business that is 100% ethical?
 
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Maxjohan

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Organic farms
Hmm... quite a good one. If it means not killing animals (Not that kind of farm.) I guess it's on the good side I guess. Like vegetables. But you know. People could be overconsuming on that too.
 

Mr.B

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jesseissorude

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This is a pretty fascinating mindset that the OP has.

I'm currently in the middle of a similar situation: There's a gap in the market from the cheap bare-basics product (that every store in my niche carries) and the high-end ferrari versions of this product. I'm trying to make something that's still cheapish and basic, but has 10x the quality of the industry-standard product.

The stores I already have products in have said that they are VERY interested in this new product, but I'm walking a tightrope between quality and price.

I am starting to realize, though, that I am trying to build a BRAND, not just sell a rinky-dink product. I've got a long way to go on this, but I want to build something I'm proud of, and if I can't build a quality doodad at my chosen price-point, then I don't want to have my little company's name on it.
 

Mattie

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They were selling people a service they didn't need, charging them 20x what the service should actually costs, making false promises and just flat out lying.
Hate to say it, but you will find most ordinary jobs there are a lot of unethical things that happen. As a nurse aide for a very long time I saw things happen, I had no control over to stop. If you stand up for things and report it like I did on occasion it falls on deaf ears, because they're running a business and they can terminate you at any time.

While I've always held to my ethics whether it was nurse aide, mental health, or a department store you always have those issues. That is exactly why I want my own business, because no matter who you work for at times you will be faced with unethical behavior and not be able to stop things. Things can be very obvious and blatant and people will be bystanders and allow things to happen. The one time I called the police because my job wasn't doing their job, the next day there was a note on the time clock that any of us did that again we would be fired instantly.

I also didn't get anymore jobs through another company because I told the truth about someone's death. So The thing is unless you're the business owner you're powerless to keep a job if you do the ethical thing. I rather it come down on them, than my head legally.
 
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RogueInnovation

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Lecturing idiots on ethics isn't very enticing.

But for me it comes own to integrity, diligence, caution, and good sense.
All of these things are not something you check off on a list and say "screw it it is done". They are core disciplines you improve daily.
You have got to do your best ethically, or no one else will.


You've really got to do your best
Because your best slips into average every now and then
and average slips into bad VERY easily if you don't keep an eye on it
:/


Just thinking about this ethics stuff makes me sad, because, generally there are so many failure ridden people in this world cheating the world by not giving it their best.

Let us set examples that inspire people to care MORE
Not be excuse ridden d'bags about things
 
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G

GuestUser112

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Hmm... quite a good one. If it means not killing animals (Not that kind of farm.) I guess it's on the good side I guess. Like vegetables. But you know. People could be overconsuming on that too.

Personally I love eating bacon and I don't think that killing animals is unethical if it is done humanely. If you compare killing an animal instantly with how most animals meet their end in the wild (watch a pack of wolves take down a moose..it's f*cked up)

Based on your logic it is unethical to eat because you're taking 'food out of the mouth of another'. Unethical to breathe for the same reason. Based on that logic I'd rather be unethical. There isn't any such thing as %100 ethical. It isn't something that can be measured like that. Let's not try not to be ridiculous.
 

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