Working at an IT shop, About to start my own VOIP biz, Boss wants it under his umbrella? Any upside?

[realcoolguy]

This is an interesting question. Is there any upside in partnering with a current employer? The business I've designed really is something I can be completely self-sufficient in. My employer doesn't provide any technical value. I don't have very deep pockets (yet) so that could limit me but the cost of operation is very low.

Just finished reading the unscripted series, but I'm following the terms of my contract which says I can't be employed or work somewhere else. (The amount I get paid is very low so this is likely something that isn't getting 'consideration' anyway and is likely NOT enforceable anyway). I informed my employer that I was about to be in breach of contract the morning after I filed my LLC/EIN numbers, built a website, and of course a working phone number that I run/control. Though he probably doesn't realize I'm already jumping through the hoops and am about to jump through more of the regulatory ones.

Can anyone give me any upside and what I should ask for in such a partnership? For context, the MSP I work at is small and rural. It isn't doing badly but we're all low paid and his rates are low for an MSP.

He countered for now and is offering to pay me mileage to just hold off on it for now. He's not 100% opposed to turning me into a contractor but it doesn't fit his vision for the company.

Any advice at all would be greatly appreciated. I don't plan on having any more employers but this guy is someone I'd still like to have a relationship with but he's making it a bit awkward. He knows a lot of people in the business community I'll be interacting with.

 

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[Ocean Man]

So does it just turn into his own business then?

You need to ask what value he provides you if any.

 

[realcoolguy]

So does it just turn into his own business then?

You need to ask what value he provides you if any.

I guess that'll flip the script on him pretty hard. His response will probably be a stable paycheck
Based on what I know I'm already planning to not need a stable paycheck 6-8 months from now and then never again.

What's really funny is he invited me to his 'business book club' and I got to meet quite a few interesting people. It rekindled my business/self-help reading and yeah, MJ DeMarco's last book was just unadulterated rocket fuel. I added that one to my personal lineup.

He told me that if I was a contractor and he had employees and he didn't need me he'd cut me or my hours. Which I was like... GOOD!? (At least in my head). That's where we ended the day.

He's an interesting guy, but I'm worried he's building a prison and not a business. I asked him about how he was going to grow? I genuinely asked about putting time into doing sales and his immediate response was "I don't want to be like one of THOSE companies." Which set off a big red flag for me since this guy was a one-man band forever and probably only grew on word of mouth. He hasn't had to grow at a different pace yet, and he just bought up the rest of a small building and hired a few employees.

 

[BizyDad]

Unless he can help you jump through the regulatory hurdles, you should quit your job.

You should probably quit anyways. You both have different visions for how to grow a company, and if you "partner" he will always think of your idea as "his company". Build it under his umbrella and you'll have headaches you don't need. It's like you are having a baby and your landlord wants to also be a parent to the kid.

Can he bad mouth you to other people? Sure. But if you have a good product/service at a competitive rate, that stink will wash off.

Can he get litigious about your current contract? Yes. But its better to deal with that early whilst you've cut ties and have nothing rather than later when he is an owner of your idea.

Ideally, cut ties as cleanly as possible. Go find another job to bring in income to support you for the next 6mo-2yrs while you grow this thing. If it were me, I'd tell him I've had a change of heart and am not going to pursue this idea, but that I am leaving his company anyway because you don't like the ideas that you work at a place that will try to claim credit for your ideas.

Tell him there are no hard feelings on your part and you are available for contract work if he needs help, tell him you don't want to leave him in a lurch, but end the relationship. Then jump through the regulatory hurdles.

And for pete's sake, talk to a lawyer. Nobody here has read your contract or knows the laws of your jurisdiction.

 

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[realcoolguy]

Unless he can help you jump through the regulatory hurdles, you should quit your job.

You should probably quit anyways. You both have different visions for how to grow a company, and if you "partner" he will always think of your idea as "his company". Build it under his umbrella and you'll have headaches you don't need. It's like you are having a baby and your landlord wants to also be a parent to the kid.

Can he bad mouth you to other people? Sure. But if you have a good product/service at a competitive rate, that stink will wash off.

Can he get litigious about your current contract? Yes. But its better to deal with that early whilst you've cut ties and have nothing rather than later when he is an owner of your idea.

Ideally, cut ties as cleanly as possible. Go find another job to bring in income to support you for the next 6mo-2yrs while you grow this thing. If it were me, I'd tell him I've had a change of heart and am not going to pursue this idea, but that I am leaving his company anyway because you don't like the ideas that you work at a place that will try to claim credit for your ideas.

Tell him there are no hard feelings on your part and you are available for contract work if he needs help, tell him you don't want to leave him in a lurch, but end the relationship. Then jump through the regulatory hurdles.

And for pete's sake, talk to a lawyer. Nobody here has read your contract or knows the laws of your jurisdiction.

My wife is over here telling me "I told you so". As she claims this was her conclusion too.

I pretty much understand this is the correct answer, but it was very helpful to read it from someone else. Thank you.

 

[eramart]

It depends on a lot of factors, but I think I wouldn't partner. I've had my share of personal dynamics added to business ventures that were pretty destructive. Maybe you should start looking for a better job just to free yourself from this one, business or not.

 

[BizyDad]

My wife is over here telling me "I told you so". As she claims this was her conclusion too.

I pretty much understand this is the correct answer, but it was very helpful to read it from someone else. Thank you.

If she is telling you to quit your job, find something new, and build this business on your own, well, she sounds like a realcoollady who will support you on your entrepreneurial journey. And she's not afraid to give you the hard truths. You got yourself a good one bro.

I'd like to hear more about your biz venture/journey, so come back and give us updates. Good luck.

 

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[Two Dog]

Is there any upside in partnering with a current employer?

That's an easy one. No. Zero. Nada.

Employment and entrepreneurship can't exist under an employer. Much less one using an employment contract.

I'm following the terms of my contract which says I can't be employed or work somewhere else.

The thing to understand about legal agreements is always "What are the repercussions of breaking the agreement?" It doesn't matter at all what the agreement says if it's not enforceable, no one will pay an attorney to enforce it, the penalties are nominal, etc.

In this case, there are no criminal penalties. It's a civil contract. The biggest sticking point in employment contracts are typically: (a) the company owns all the rights to your work even when done outside of company time without using company resources; (b) the company can fire you without cause; (c) the employee can't work for a competitor for some amount of time.

Personally, I'd never sign anything that says my creative output off hours belong to someone else. You can always be fired because the company will manufacture a reason if needed. That leaves non-compete which is extremely difficult to enforce. Figure out what you want to do before worrying about the employment agreement.

 

[realcoolguy]

That's an easy one. No. Zero. Nada.

Employment and entrepreneurship can't exist under an employer. Much less one using an employment contract.


The thing to understand about legal agreements is always "What are the repercussions of breaking the agreement?" It doesn't matter at all what the agreement says if it's not enforceable, no one will pay an attorney to enforce it, the penalties are nominal, etc.

In this case, there are no criminal penalties. It's a civil contract. The biggest sticking point in employment contracts are typically: (a) the company owns all the rights to your work even when done outside of company time without using company resources; (b) the company can fire you without cause; (c) the employee can't work for a competitor for some amount of time.

Personally, I'd never sign anything that says my creative output off hours belong to someone else. You can always be fired because the company will manufacture a reason if needed. That leaves non-compete which is extremely difficult to enforce. Figure out what you want to do before worrying about the employment agreement.

Well, I feel like I made my employer look a bit crazy. He's a legitimately GOOD guy and hopefully, he does well with his MSP/IT shop. The contract was largely just a template he grabbed and used. I'm quite familiar with all the employment laws in my state. It's not the legal side I'm worried about nor am I worried about him ever going after me (unless I literally made another MSP near his and competed directly, no plans there). I am quite familiar with what is enforceable, what's shaky 50/50, and what's NOT enforceable but it all probably doesn't matter. However, I DO NOT want the cloud of uncertainty to be hanging over anything I start building.

I've just become so integral to his needs that he doesn't want to lose me. I'd like to become a contractor for him that can be spun up and down in terms of hours (that I can choose to accept) at least until he hopefully doesn't need me anymore. This I believe is the only everyone wins direction I can go. Contract gets torn up, restrictions lifted. This is the ONLY solution to not outright leaving. If this is rejected, it's my notice that comes next.

The only bit that I'm not sure everyone has experience with, is when you are generally based out of a rural area, reputation matters quite a bit. As does the opinions of the few in the communities you're going to try to influence.

But I think everyone is right. My current situation is untenable and I don't plan to be an employee/contractor for someone else forever. But the contractor status sounds more appealing for the short term where I could keep all relations cordial and that's actually kinda sorta important to the business I'm building as well. It would be less important in a larger city area.

The current short-term plan is to immediately exit the contract and get myself to hourly status without a contractional obligation. When I already know he's going to be soft in his ability to meet payroll in 6 months I should be easily able to ramp down in hours gracefully and everyone wins. I still don't think he understands how much he's grown his expenses...

Plan B is the pull the ripcord and full exit as politely as I can. I'd like to run plan A into plan B as I get ready to fully quit my day job. I do love the work, but it's not paying the bills (very well) and is just wasting my time and potential.

This forum is freaky awesome by the way. I'll be sure to provide some updates.

The last bit I will mention how empowering the whole thing is. It's like cracking some secret code. Everyone is hanging on my every word at work and it's almost embarrassing. I guess that's what happens when you simply know you have all the skills and the bargaining power.

 

[Bing]

I don't think I have anything to add about your personal situation that hasn't already been said, but it is interesting to observe as an outsider (to your life) how the way you write about your current situation garners others to reply to those voices in your head you already know, but aren't sure to trust.

This applies to ANY situation it seems (not just business, but relationships, conflicts, financial advice). And for what it's worth, the advice you receive is a function of the advice-giver, but the inputs are yours.

What I mean is: if you ask for business advice about how to handle a problem customer and you lead with "this customer is the biggest piece of shit I've ever known" guess what kind of responses you're likely to garner? "Cut 'em loose!" "Stop dealing with them then!" But if you started with "this customer accounts for 80% of my sales, but is also a real PITA" you might get more nuanced advice, like "maybe you should have a meeting with them to find a good middle-ground to remove the conflict" or "consider trying to make headway with one of their competitors, since you've already proven your value in the space and if things go nuclear you have diversified your risk."

I have a business partner, very smart guy, found the Fastlane long before I met him (though he never read any of the books). Sometimes I bring him problems and he gives me such obvious advice, as in: if I had written my question down, mailed it to myself, then answered my letter 3 days later not knowing it was me I would have OBVIOUSLY said exactly what he did. But sometimes when you're in the depths of things, you can't grasp (or don't trust) the clearly right answer.

It sounds like you have those voices already (even if it's just your wife yelling at you). If deep down you know they're right, go for it. We're all taking risks here.

 

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[Two Dog]

MSP/IT shop.

Could you clarify the acronyms along with a sentence about what it means in regular English? I'm guessing MSP/IT means managed service provider, but would like to be sure. VoIP usually means digital phone lines or systems.

The only bit that I'm not sure everyone has experience with, is when you are generally based out of a rural area, reputation matters quite a bit. As does the opinions of the few in the communities you're going to try to influence.

Y'know, not completely disagreeing with you, but I've come to doubt the folk wisdom of that phrase over the years.

It always helps to get positive recommendations from someone who's well established in the community. Far less clear that it's detrimental when that same person is trash talking a new competitor to anyone with ears. People just don't like hearing it, particularly when they hear something different from other sources. If you've been working in an industry for any length of time, you've already been developing relationships just by being in the game regardless of who's the boss.

 

[Daniel.]

I'm guessing MSP/IT means managed service provider, but would like to be sure. VoIP usually means digital phone lines or systems.

Yes, that's what an MSP is, a Managed Service Provider. A business will generally contract an MSP to Outsource their IT department, which is much better than relying on a One-Man operation that has a single point of failure and is under-resourced

VoIP is Voice-Over-IP, think Google Voice, Vonage, etc

-------------------

As others mentioned, I wouldn't partner with him - there's really no reason to. Have you taken a look at your telecom taxes? I know many decide to not pursue selling VoIP simply because it can get very complicated. I started a small MSP shop on the side (used to work in one) and I went against this, I partnered with a VoIP provider to white-label everything. Internally, I use 3CX with a Twilio SIP, Self-Hosted through DigitalOcean.

I take it that you will be building off a PBX like NetSapiens? to my understanding, that can get pricey

 

[realcoolguy]

Yes, that's what an MSP is, a Managed Service Provider. A business will generally contract an MSP to Outsource their IT department, which is much better than relying on a One-Man operation that has a single point of failure and is under-resourced

VoIP is Voice-Over-IP, think Google Voice, Vonage, etc

-------------------

As others mentioned, I wouldn't partner with him - there's really no reason to. Have you taken a look at your telecom taxes? I know many decide to not pursue selling VoIP simply because it can get very complicated. I started a small MSP shop on the side (used to work in one) and I went against this, I partnered with a VoIP provider to white-label everything. Internally, I use 3CX with a Twilio SIP, Self-Hosted through DigitalOcean.

I take it that you will be building off a PBX like NetSapiens? to my understanding, that can get pricey

Apologies to those above for not defining my acronyms! Also apologies to my non-technical friends, I'm nerding out below a bit...

I thrive on complexity and have a very high reading and problem-solving comprehension. Also really nice to see someone with VOIP/SIP experience. I'm actually running towards the complexity since not only do I think I can hack it, have plans to automate quite a few of the taxing problems into more simplicity (using some of my healthcare interfacing experience). Still, I plan on using a specialized VOIP group to handle the tax side. At least to start. Everything else though is just a lot of scary-looking regulatory issues and complicated-looking math that gets changed now and then.

499A, 499Q, fUSF (fund), having a presence in DC for mail. Familiar with it all at this point - and the recovery fees, E911, etc. Bought a book on how to start a VOIP service, and despite being a bit dated found some good bits in it.

I'll just say this, I'd rather be the VOIP provider than the MSP. I've done quite a few deployments, especially in clinics. But now that I've learned how to control everything from end to end it's a bit of a game-changer, at least when it comes to margins.

Also, the local competition here is VERY weak when it comes to quality and or pricing. Plus nothing is done custom. I plan on doing a lot of custom setups and target offices/clinics with better IVR (the menu thing), call flow settings, voicemail that makes more sense etc. I see an easy lunch waiting to be eaten. My wife has volunteered her voice (she's done radio) so I'll even have that as a feature.

I'm looking at a few different soft switch types but I can pretty much do everything offered in FreePBX. I'd love to learn more of course and actively am.

FreePBX, (self-hosted) on VULTR and Flowroute for trunking is currently the winning combo I've found. But Twillo looks like my laboratory for building custom solutions with logic so I'm busy playing with an account there too.

As for convergence I'm almost not yet quite sold. I see what Microsoft teams are doing. I'm seeing other solutions like Sangoma, and I believe NetSapiens falls into this category. But in my area, everyone is just picking up a phone. Once I have a better idea of where digital convergence is going to land, then I'll cast my net.

 

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[Daniel.]

Good stuff, sir - FreePBX, VULTR and Flowroute trunking does sound like a good stack.

You definitely sound like someone that has the technical know-how, excited for you!

You can also potentially offer White-Labeling for MSPs with awesome support. Take a look at OITVoIP that's run by Ray Orsini (awesome guy) super knowledgable and the nicest guy ever, you should try chatting with him. Dude is a wealth of knowledge and I'm sure you can learn something from him with bridging the gap between tech & business.

But Twillo looks like my laboratory for building custom solutions with logic so I'm busy playing with an account there too.

Standardizing will make scaling and management so much easier, the same solution for a 5-person to 100-person client. You mentioned you want to provide custom flows, which is awesome as long as the hardware and deployment is standardized.

You got this

 

[realcoolguy]

Good stuff, sir - FreePBX, VULTR and Flowroute trunking does sound like a good stack.

You definitely sound like someone that has the technical know-how, excited for you!

You can also potentially offer White-Labeling for MSPs with awesome support. Take a look at OITVoIP that's run by Ray Orsini (awesome guy) super knowledgable and the nicest guy ever, you should try chatting with him. Dude is a wealth of knowledge and I'm sure you can learn something from him with bridging the gap between tech & business.


Standardizing will make scaling and management so much easier, the same solution for a 5-person to 100-person client. You mentioned you want to provide custom flows, which is awesome as long as the hardware and deployment is standardized.

You got this

This was the last bit of validation I needed to see. I've seen enough, I'm satisfied.

Thank you again, and everyone else.

 

[realcoolguy]

This was the last bit of validation I needed to see. I've seen enough, I'm satisfied.

Thank you again, and everyone else.

Sent an ultimatum email late Friday. Boss really didn't like it. Bit of a blowout fight this Monday. Pretty much took the advice of the forum here and offered it as his only options.

What I eventually got really weirded me out and showed me how he thought about people. Do employers try to keep people in the slow lane? He started talking a bit strange about things. How I'm only an employee and only bring labor to the table etc. Parts of it felt really condescending.

Threatened non-compete enforcement against me a couple of times. Wild stuff on a $20 hourly / 40 hours salary that offers 0 benefits.

I have no intention of building an MSP. I was just tired of not moving at all and figured I'd drag everyone forward with me, employer included (via white-labeling the service) and even packaging/selling his service while I'll be canvassing everywhere since he hasn't (assuming I get some kind of commission).

I'm not quite sure he saw those intentions and seems to want to have very little to do with me after I conveniently finish what he desperately needs to be done. Oh well? I'm not bothered just perplexed at employer behavior.

Anyway thanks to anyone who dropped me some advice. That was a rough step but the rest feel oddly easier.

 

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[eramart]

How I'm only an employee and only bring labor to the table etc. Parts of it felt really condescending.

Yeah, that’s what I was talking about - imagine those kind of fights when you are partners and your business is in a tight spot.
Good luck!