We are all KINGS!!! (Reclaiming Masculinity in the Modern Day)

[ChickenHawk]

Feminism has so many different connotations. In the end it is all about respect.

True. But respect should go both ways. Also, before anyone can (or should) respect you, you need to be worthy of respect. Respect should't be a participation trophy, where everyone gets it just because they're a gal, or a guy for that matter.

 

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[G-Man]

Respect should't be a participation trophy, where everyone gets it just because they're a gal, or a guy for that matter.

Damn skippy. At least part of the problem is that when people use the word "respect", they're often really talking about courtesy. The deeper concept is more meaningful, but inherently non-egalitarian, which is what makes it so unfashionable in our current climate, I think.

It's uncouth to acknowledge that some people are truly of a higher caliber than others.

 

[Roland]

I grew up mostly raised by my mom and grandmother because my dad had his issues, was insecure, and largely absent.

This is a story I read some time ago:

Two twins were raised by an alcoholic father. Same education, same environment, same everything.

One of them turned out to become an alcoholic too and the second twin became a successful businessman.

When the alcoholic twin was asked why he was what he was he said that his father was an alcoholic.
When the businessman twin was asked why he was what he was he said that his father was an alcoholic.

I guess if I had to sum it up I would say that you can't change what happened in the past but your future is what you will make of it.

 

[andrewhook]

IMO, we as a society should be ashamed of the messages we're sending our young men in particular -- that they're not important, that they're somehow worth less than women, that they're somehow the root of all the problems in this world. Guys are seriously awesome, and I think it's time for them to receive a lot more appreciation for all the things they've done to make this world a wonderful place.

in Italy, old people say that we young guys are the cause of economic crisis because we are lazy and we don't want to work, because when they were young they worked a lot...
Then you go to see these people, and find out they retired at 35-40 years old and are getting pensions twice-three times bigger than their contribution...
Bah...

 

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[Supa]

Great topic and great posts, especially by @ChickenHawk and @Vigilante !

In our current world it feels like the movies and TV shows are dictating both genders how they "should" be, how they should act, talk, what to wear, what emotions to show, what emotions to hide.

Just take a look at the schools, at least here in Germany. If a guy cries in front of his classmates he'll pretty much hear some laughters or even bullying about it, nobody cares about the reason he cries, maybe he has lost a loved one the day before.. Now look at what happens if a girl starts crying in class because she received a bad grade, there probably will be at least 1 if not more friends of her coming to her to put her into their arms.

Ok yeah that's a wide generalization and there are also situations where a guy receives support if he shows emotions in front of others.. I also hope it didn't come across like I was suggesting that it's bad that girls get support when showing emotions, because that's not what I wanted to say with this example.. I wanted to show how we are conditioned into our "gender roles" from an early age on.

Many men are afraid to show too much emotions because they are afraid of being seen as weak.

And a lot of women are seen as "masculine" or "not girl-like" if they show strength, "too much" passion into a hobby or business, are confident and not into stuff that's seen by a great amount of people as "girly".

A reason why I am not as active on here as I used to, is that my girlfriend is struggling with some f*cked up health problems.. this girl is 22 and struggling with Morbus Crohn in one of its heaviest forms and also with a lot of the byproducts of it, like severe back pain.

Man, she told me she'd like to cry every god damn morning that she gets up after maybe 3-4 hours of bad sleep, another byproduct of this illness, and she still goes to her 9-10 hour work days every damn day. She still tries to be the best partner possible no matter how shitty every single day is for her for the last 4-5 months since the backpains started.

This girl is probably the strongest human being I ever got to know and I'm F*cking thankful every day to call her my woman.

She also lived through the worst hell a human being can go through, in my opinion, as a child, which she also overcame and still smiles brighter on good days than anyone I know.

Well, do you think she gives a shit if others think she's "girly"? Do you think she cares about all those gender stereotypes that the media shows us every day? Nope.

One of the things I love about our relationship, is that both of us don't give a shit about gender roles.

Yeah, of course I'm there for her and do everything I can to make her life not only happier but also easier. But the thing is, she does the same.

Of course I'm feeling with her, who wouldn't feel with a loved one if they are suffering? So some days I, too, break down and sometimes also cry. Do you think I feel weak because of it? F*ck no! It's human to cry if you're sad or suffering with someone you love, that's called empathy.

Do you think she's laughing at me if I show emotions? No. She hugs me until that "weak" moment goes away and then we're back to laughing together and having a great time.

What I want to say with this (veeery) long post is, please don't let the media tell you how to behave.

Life's not a movie or TV show. If you feel like crying and think you shouldn't because you're an adult man, F*ck it and just do it, no one will judge you for it.. and if someone does their opinion of you doesn't really matter.

If you want to not be that "perfect out of a movie girlie" woman, than just don't be that! People who really love you won't give two F*cks if you love the color pink, if your favorite color is blue than F*cking wear that color, and know that you look fantastic in it!

Just do what makes you and the people around you happy, and if your behaviour or characterics are against "modern gender roles" than just don't care.

Have a great day you all

 

[MidwestLandlord]

Many men are afraid to show too much emotions because they are afraid of being seen as weak.

I actually see the exact opposite of this more often than not. I've seen tons of guys follow women around like lost puppies and beg for affection, show too much emotion, and just generally being a whiny bitch.

"Maybe if I'm her personal taxi, pay for all her food, hold her when she's upset, and like all her posts on facebook she'll one day go out with me!"

"I gave her my heart, soul, everything! and she still won't go out with me! Wah!!"

Bleh.

 

[Supa]

I actually see the exact opposite of this more often than not. I've seen tons of guys follow women around like lost puppies and beg for affection, show too much emotion, and just generally being a whiny bitch.

"Maybe if I'm her personal taxi, pay for all her food, hold her when she's upset, and like all her posts on facebook she'll one day go out with me!"

"I gave her my heart, soul, everything! and she still won't go out with me! Wah!!"

Bleh.

Yeah I know what you mean.

That's not what I meant with my post.. I'm not suggesting to be that whiny type of person. Or to act like your worth less than a woman (for the men).

Sorry if my post was a bit unclear and gave the wrong message.

What you wrote as examples is low self confidence. Treating a love interest like they are better than you or like you're not deserving of them (paying everything for them, driving them around all the time, crying for attention..)

What I meant is not crying because of a bad self image.

You should be strong, strong in a self confident type of way. I just don't see showing emotions (real emotions) as weak. Crying was an extreme example. Another way of showing emotions is to show affection.

But not that type of whiny "oh my god you're so much better than me" type of "affection" but showing affection when the situation is there for it.

I just meant that in general guys are conditioned to hide their emotions. Doing favors for a woman you're interested in in hope of her becoming attracted to you is not a showing of emotions. That's just low self confidence and kinda manipulative.

Caring about someone you love and who is attracted to you, and showing emotions when the situation gives opportunity for it, is (in my opinion) a good thing to do.

If you do it from a point of high self confidence and not to impress, get affection or some other dumb reason.

 

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[Mattie]

- The king in his fullness orders and blesses. Lording over his Kingdom, the King works for the prosperity of himself and his people, blessing those who have earned such and punishing/ignoring the cowards and plotters.

I believe at times there is the Queen as well who does the same exact thing. Just saying, I've hung out with men all my life, and always saw them as my brothers. They challenged me to be a leader, competitive, pushed me to the limits, and taught me to ground my emotions, and keep them in check. I suppose a Queen knows their is a time to be a warrior inside, because life happens, and we have to defend ourselves. At other times, we're the natural mother, natural wife, and nurturing and feminine. While some King's may frown upon this, the whole point being everyone doesn't have the same journey in life.

If you even look in history where King's and Queen's rule, there have been just as many Killer Queens who slice and dice as much as King's, and even in some situations, they were power couples who were both genius's, strategic, and defended their Kingdom. They both studied the Art of War, and educated themselves.

 

[Mattie]

Yup. But I have a husband, brothers, and a son, and it angers me to see them disparaged due to their gender. Plus, IMO, the current imbalance isn't good for anyone, not even women for too many reasons to count. A related thought: The pendulum has swung so far anti-male that we're almost at risk for an over-correction, which would leave women worse off in the long run. It's kind of surprising to me that rabid man-haters can't see this.

I'm on the same page as you Chickenhawk. I don't agree with Feminists and Matriarchy. They are getting out of hand, and that's what I feel the message is right now, to become man haters, and I feel it will only throw society out of balance. I hear you, like I stated above, I've had many men friends in life, and brought up with a lot of men relatives, and even the only girl on one side of the family. So, I understand women disrespect men in various ways. And most of my life, I've watched hundreds of women attack men, and personally, I feel women need to get a grip. I have a son as well, and I will not allow him to play submissive to a women. Leadership skills are important, and while I'm not exactly old school either, I believe women and men can be in balance and respect one another. I feel they both something to add, and contribute to society, and better off when they share personal power, be individuals, and accept their differences. Differences don't separate. The Ego separates, and the win-lose mentality, domination and submission, versus the win-win mentality.

 

[startinup]

Yup. But I have a husband, brothers, and a son, and it angers me to see them disparaged due to their gender. Plus, IMO, the current imbalance isn't good for anyone, not even women for too many reasons to count. A related thought: The pendulum has swung so far anti-male that we're almost at risk for an over-correction, which would leave women worse off in the long run. It's kind of surprising to me that rabid man-haters can't see this.

A positive thing to think about is that the pendulum constantly swings back and forth. In the 1920's women were similar to how they are today. They were rebellious, short-term thinking, and more extremely feminist, and men and women behaved relatively similar.

By the time the 50's rolled around. Men behaved like men again, and women behaved like women again.

I find it interesting that women would even think that behaving like a man would be more powerful for them. Biologically men are stronger suited to masculinity so it's not a winning proposition for women to try to compete with men in being masculine.

Women have more strength in being feminine, just like men are more suited to being masculine.

No use to compete with someone in their strongest realm, when is it not your strong suit.

 

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[White Wolf]

I have a very "traditional" outlook on gender roles, and I believe that the departure therefrom is a large part of the reason why the vast majority of modern relationships don't seem to work. I believe that the male and female are not the same and cannot be measured according to the same standards without doing injustice to one or the other. I think that the relationship between the manager and the employee serves as a good parallel to that of a man and a woman. Both are equally deserving of respect; one is predisposed to authority over the other; but neither can exist without the other, as each of their identities is wholly dependent upon the other.

I am not a supporter of "equality" as it is commonly understood today with the connotation that men and women should be viewed exactly the same. They are obviously not. Rather, I am a supporter of justice. I do not feel that it would be just to expect from a man the same things that one would expect from a woman, and vice versa. In fact, I am of the opinion that a man and a woman are diametrically opposite in almost every way. Whenever I find myself uncertain as to how to proceed in a fashion that is consistent with my masculine identity, I ask myself, "How would a feminine woman address this situation?" I then do the exact opposite. I've found that this tactic has worked very well for me.

As a man, I believe that the majority of modern men are having their masculinity neutralized because they are not engaging in traditional masculine activities. In my view, the defining characteristic of a man is that he should be all about business. He should be working, building, and getting things done. He should be serious, efficient, proactive, and productive in everything he does. He should be authoritative and decisive. He should be disciplined. Mentally, he should be strong as a brick wall. He should be a leader. He should not be a robot - rather, he should be the exact opposite of a robot: an effective and efficient communicator who conveys his feelings openly and honestly.

And I have found that, in the context of male-female relationships, women respond best to a man like this. A man is supposed to be large, strong, decisive, and disciplined, and he should have wealth and authority. Of course, he should not look down upon others or treat them unfairly; arrogance, in my view, stems from personal weakness, specifically a lack of discipline. I believe that a man is defined by strength and power, whereas a woman is defined by weakness and the lack of power.

Thus, as a man, I believe that the healthiest thing for me to do is to work, and to work very hard, not cutting any corners, and build as much strength, wealth, and discipline as I can. It makes me feel wholesome and complete, and I would not want it any other way. That being said, part of being a man is upholding the ties of kinship with your family, and I think that it is a responsibility incumbent upon every man. I agree with Don Corleone when he said in The Godfather that a man who does not spend time with his family can never be a real man.

 

[Ayanle Farah]

For at least 20 years, probably more, men have been undervalued, ridiculed, and seriously taken for granted in just about every way. Today, they're the only people you can mock with impunity, stereotype, and blame for all the world's ills without recognizing the incredible contributions they've made to our safety, our comfort, our medical advancements, and so much more. When is the last time anyone told a guy to be proud of who he is? Of his masculinity? Or of his heritage, especially if there isn't any diversity in his family tree?

I do think men need to reclaim their masculinity. But women (and society) need to do a better job of appreciating men for the many wonderful things they bring to the table.

IMO, we as a society should be ashamed of the messages we're sending our young men in particular -- that they're not important, that they're somehow worth less than women, that they're somehow the root of all the problems in this world. Guys are seriously awesome, and I think it's time for them to receive a lot more appreciation for all the things they've done to make this world a wonderful place.

Some would argue the only reason men alone were able to make contributions to safety, comfort and advancement is because women were oppressed and never given a chance to.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Some would argue the only reason men alone were able to make contributions to safety, comfort and advancement is because women were oppressed and never given a chance to.

Maybe. Maybe not. But why does it matter? It doesn't change the fact that men have contributed greatly to many wonderful things that we now take for granted, and that mocking, vilifying, or undervaluing people for their gender does everyone a disservice.

As far as women being oppressed, very few women (in Western countries, at least) have experienced any real oppression during their lifetimes. Isn't it time to work together rather than tearing each other down? See, IMO, this is part of the problem. I say, "men deserve some credit," and someone chimes in to imply that these achievements somehow don't count, because women didn't have the opportunity.

To that, I say "So what?" It doesn't change the fact that men have achieved some pretty amazing things and deserve encouragement and inspiration, too.

 

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[Spicymemer45]

Maybe. Maybe not. But why does it matter? It doesn't change the fact that men have contributed greatly to many wonderful things that we now take for granted, and that mocking, vilifying, or undervaluing people for their gender does everyone a disservice.

As far as women being oppressed, very few women (in Western countries, at least) have experienced any real oppression during their lifetimes. Isn't it time to work together rather than tearing each other down? See, IMO, this is part of the problem. I say, "men deserve some credit," and someone chimes in to imply that these achievements somehow don't count, because women didn't have the opportunity.

To that, I say "So what?" It doesn't change the fact that men have achieved some pretty amazing things and deserve encouragement and inspiration, too.

ChickenHawk 2020

 

[Ayanle Farah]

Maybe. Maybe not. But why does it matter? It doesn't change the fact that men have contributed greatly to many wonderful things that we now take for granted, and that mocking, vilifying, or undervaluing people for their gender does everyone a disservice.

As far as women being oppressed, very few women (in Western countries, at least) have experienced any real oppression during their lifetimes. Isn't it time to work together rather than tearing each other down? See, IMO, this is part of the problem. I say, "men deserve some credit," and someone chimes in to imply that these achievements somehow don't count, because women didn't have the opportunity.

To that, I say "So what?" It doesn't change the fact that men have achieved some pretty amazing things and deserve encouragement and inspiration, too.

I never implied anything else but what I said and I'm not taking credit away from anyone, I'm a man too.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Some would argue the only reason men alone were able to make contributions to safety, comfort and advancement is because women were oppressed and never given a chance to.

I never implied anything else but what I said and I'm not taking credit away from anyone, I'm a man too.

Sorry, but these statements appear to be a bit of a contradiction, at least to me.

 

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[Ayanle Farah]

Sorry, but these statements appear to be a bit of a contradiction, at least to me.

I guess there is some truth to us seeing what we want to see and hearing what we want to hear.

Some would argue the only reason men alone were able to make contributions to safety, comfort and advancement is because women were oppressed and never given a chance to.

 

[G-Man]

This thread becomes a yahoo comment section in 5,4,3,2,......

 

[ChickenHawk]

I guess there is some truth to us seeing what we want to see and hearing what we want to hear.

Ah, but I never said that men alone have made contributions to our safety, etc. That was a qualifier you inserted not me, but I will agree that men have invented far more of these conveniences than women, and I will also agree that opportunity likely had had a lot to do with that. But that doesn't change the fact that there seems to be a disturbing trend of minimizing these accomplishments for the sake of political correctness, and I personally believe that this sort of narrative does more harm than good.

 

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[ChickenHawk]

This thread becomes a yahoo comment section in 5,4,3,2,......

Yup, you're right. Time for me to quit quibbling and get back to work.

 

[Ayanle Farah]

Ah, but I never said that men alone have made contributions to our safety, etc. That was a qualifier you inserted not me, but I will agree that men have invented far more of these conveniences than women, and I will also agree that opportunity likely had had a lot to do with that. But that doesn't change the fact that there seems to be a disturbing trend of minimizing these accomplishments for the sake of political correctness, and I personally believe that this sort of narrative does more harm than good.

You claimed men did this and that, and therefore should be appreciated more, indirectly saying women did nothing.
That's why I stated the reason men alone did such things was because they had the opportunity and women did not.

I'm not a fan of blowing things out of proportion, we should be grateful to the people who contributed who happened to be mostly men but looking at things in isolation and ignoring the reason why men almost solely contributed to society is not a fair thing to do.

 

[G-Man]

You claimed men did this and that, and therefore should be appreciated more, indirectly saying women did nothing.

Is syllogisms or math logic an available course in your university? I benefited from it a lot.

 

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[Ayanle Farah]

Is syllogisms or math logic an available course in your university? I benefited from it a lot.

I don't need to take a course to obtain common sense.

 

[G-Man]

I don't need to take a course to obtain common sense.

Appeal to common sense fallacy.

You claimed men did this and that, and therefore should be appreciated more, indirectly saying women did nothing.

False dilemma fallacy.

I wasn't being sarcastic, and I'm sorry if I was a little rude. I really did take symbolic math logic in university, and it really was one of the most worthwhile things I learned in school.

 

[Kak]

For at least 20 years, probably more, men have been undervalued, ridiculed, and seriously taken for granted in just about every way. Today, they're the only people you can mock with impunity, stereotype, and blame for all the world's ills without recognizing the incredible contributions they've made to our safety, our comfort, our medical advancements, and so much more. When is the last time anyone told a guy to be proud of who he is? Of his masculinity? Or of his heritage, especially if there isn't any diversity in his family tree?

I do think men need to reclaim their masculinity. But women (and society) need to do a better job of appreciating men for the many wonderful things they bring to the table.

IMO, we as a society should be ashamed of the messages we're sending our young men in particular -- that they're not important, that they're somehow worth less than women, that they're somehow the root of all the problems in this world. Guys are seriously awesome, and I think it's time for them to receive a lot more appreciation for all the things they've done to make this world a wonderful place.

This is a great post! Rep+

 

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[Ayanle Farah]

Appeal to common sense fallacy.



False dilemma fallacy.

I wasn't being sarcastic, and I'm sorry if I was a little rude. I really did take symbolic math logic in university, and it really was one of the most worthwhile things I learned in school.

Your post appeared to be an ad hominem to me, I know most of the fallacies but haven't heard of the ones you mentioned.

 

[MidwestLandlord]

Your post appeared to be an ad hominem to me, I know most of the fallacies but haven't heard of the ones you mentioned.

Nah, they exist. I'll let you do the work of googling them though.

Common sense fallacy is officially called: "Appeal to Common Sense Fallacy"

and

False Dilemma is officially called: "False Binary"

Happy googling.

 

[G-Man]

Nah, they exist. I'll let you do the work of googling them though.

Common sense fallacy is officially called: "Appeal to Common Sense Fallacy"

and

False Dilemma is officially called: "False Binary"

Happy googling.

Might be tough. They're pretty obscure. Dammit, there I go with the sarcasm again.

 

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[MidwestLandlord]

Might be tough. They're pretty obscure. Dammit, there I go with the sarcasm again.

Enough of your Appeal to Ridicule fallacies!

Oh, Appeal to Ridicule is officially known as: "Reductio ad absurdum"

Just so we keep the fallacy list up to date haha.

 

[Waspy]

Found this thread an incredibly interesting read. I tend to disassociate with the militant feminist types so don't really see much of it in my day to day.

The people I keep close all just have a view of common human desency, regardless of gender. I'm pretty relaxed about all this stuff.

This thread has reminded and reinforced though, that I really don't want to get married, nor have kids. All this talk about "roles" etc makes me cringe.

The only role I care about is mine. -And my only role is progressing my life in the direction I want to take it. I get called selfish for that. No idea how not wanting a wife makes me selfish, doesn't really affect anyone. If I got married, THEN decided I didn't want a wife, that would probably be selfish.

Society confuses me on a daily basis.