Toptal, Upwork for Programmers

[Taz]

Has anybody had any experience with any of these websites or others? I need a programmer/programmers to build a full-scale business website but I don't know where to begin to look. I've seen average prices but they all range on a wide scale. What are your experiences?

 

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[SEBASTlAN]

I've used both, but I would lean toward screening a lot of talent on Upwork until you find one that works well for you.

 

[alexkuzmov]

Has anybody had any experience with any of these websites or others? I need a programmer/programmers to build a full-scale business website but I don't know where to begin to look. I've seen average prices but they all range on a wide scale. What are your experiences?

Give Guru a try: Guru - Hire Freelancers Online and Find Freelance Jobs Online
Alot of large companies are lurking in there, not just freelancers.

 

[Knugs]

I have spend more than 40,000 USD on software development on Upwork and billed more than 1300 hours.

If you have no coding or project management background developing a "full scale business website" might become a little tricky. The question really is what needs to be developed. If it is a simple ecommerce site which you can do on wordpress and things like shopify, I would skip the development part alltogether. If it can be done on wordpress, choose the simple way. The MVP way.

Lets say you really need a fully functioning business website with unique features which need to be developed.

1) First of all you need to find a UI/UX designer to convert your sketches/imagination into a realistic user friendly design. You will want to have this finalised or you will run into problems later on. Some designers are also frontend developers too. Talented UI/UX designers are easy to find on upwork as you can judge their portfolio on Upwork. If you have extremely detailed sketches, I would go on a per project-basis type contract. Its also simple to compare quotes this way. Usually, there should be at least 1 revision round included. Be prepared to go on an hourly basis, if you need more revisions on the designs. Beware of subcontractors and bad communication skills. Many do multiple projects at a time which can lead to delays and what you should clarify beforehand. I always require skype communication and participation in slack.

btw. they might ask for a branding guide when they design your site which is a really good sign of the quality of the designer. If you dont have one, I would seriously recommend getting this done before designing the website. Branding guide = responsive logo/fonts/colour guide/flyers/business card etc. A good branding guide can have a huge impact on the success of your business. A good branding guide also digs really deep down into your concept and your customers.

2) You will probably need 1x fullstack dev or 1 backend dev if your designer can do frontend work. In my experience most devs want to work on an hourly basis, because it is difficult setting a pricetag on such a project. When you gather multiple quotes, you will realise at this point that devs/agency are all over the place in regards to pricing. Whilst the hourly rate might seem important when choosing a dev consider this. They can and they will just bill you more than they worked to reach their desired hourly rate. Dont expect freelancers to be truthful. IMO, tracking software doesnt really work and has too many loopholes. Plus you probably have no idea on how to judge their work and productivity. I'm not sure how you would do project management this on Jira without having any idea of coding. Having a CTO is gold.

Always chose the MVP-way. It will save your time and money. When you have validated your business and have more money to spend, only then upgrade and optimise features.

 

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[Taz]

I have spend more than 40,000 USD on software development on Upwork and billed more than 1300 hours.

If you have no coding or project management background developing a "full scale business website" might become a little tricky. The question really is what needs to be developed. If it is a simple ecommerce site which you can do on wordpress and things like shopify, I would skip the development part alltogether. If it can be done on wordpress, choose the simple way. The MVP way.

Lets say you really need a fully functioning business website with unique features which need to be developed.

1) First of all you need to find a UI/UX designer to convert your sketches/imagination into a realistic user friendly design. You will want to have this finalised or you will run into problems later on. Some designers are also frontend developers too. Talented UI/UX designers are easy to find on upwork as you can judge their portfolio on Upwork. If you have extremely detailed sketches, I would go on a per project-basis type contract. Its also simple to compare quotes this way. Usually, there should be at least 1 revision round included. Be prepared to go on an hourly basis, if you need more revisions on the designs. Beware of subcontractors and bad communication skills. Many do multiple projects at a time which can lead to delays and what you should clarify beforehand. I always require skype communication and participation in slack.

btw. they might ask for a branding guide when they design your site which is a really good sign of the quality of the designer. If you dont have one, I would seriously recommend getting this done before designing the website. Branding guide = responsive logo/fonts/colour guide/flyers/business card etc. A good branding guide can have a huge impact on the success of your business. A good branding guide also digs really deep down into your concept and your customers.

2) You will probably need 1x fullstack dev or 1 backend dev if your designer can do frontend work. In my experience most devs want to work on an hourly basis, because it is difficult setting a pricetag on such a project. When you gather multiple quotes, you will realise at this point that devs/agency are all over the place in regards to pricing. Whilst the hourly rate might seem important when choosing a dev consider this. They can and they will just bill you more than they worked to reach their desired hourly rate. Dont expect freelancers to be truthful. IMO, tracking software doesnt really work and has too many loopholes. Plus you probably have no idea on how to judge their work and productivity. I'm not sure how you would do project management this on Jira without having any idea of coding. Having a CTO is gold.

Always chose the MVP-way. It will save your time and money. When you have validated your business and have more money to spend, only then upgrade and optimise features.

First, I wanna thank you for your detailed response, it was super helpful beyond anything I've found so far.

For reference, I'm going to school for Computer Science and I've been coding for a couple of years now. Theoretically, I could spend time and design the website but It would take too long and my efforts would be spread too thin. So I believe I would have a pretty good idea of what's going on behind the scenes with the development, I just have no actual experience managing it or what to expect from it.

What I've taken away so far:
1. Try the MVP-way - I would if I could but the website requires unique features. There is no system available that would fit my needs. The closest thing would be modifying Wordpress to fit my needs, which is a possibility I'm exploring.
2. Come up with sketches on how I want the website to look like. Now I'm assuming this is pen and paper sketches? Something like drawing where I want certain things to be placed in and how the website should function?
3. Get a UI/UX designer to turn those sketches into the real thing and finalize it. Try for contractors but be prepared for an hourly basis.
4. Get a full stack developer or 1 frontend and 1 backend developer. Which would be a better idea? Which method would cost more money?

Also, when trying to get quotes, should I make a document of how I want the completed project to work? Or should I withhold some features and information until I pick someone?

 

[Knugs]

First, I wanna thank you for your detailed response, it was super helpful beyond anything I've found so far.

For reference, I'm going to school for Computer Science and I've been coding for a couple of years now. Theoretically, I could spend time and design the website but It would take too long and my efforts would be spread too thin. So I believe I would have a pretty good idea of what's going on behind the scenes with the development, I just have no actual experience managing it or what to expect from it.

What I've taken away so far:
1. Try the MVP-way - I would if I could but the website requires unique features. There is no system available that would fit my needs. The closest thing would be modifying Wordpress to fit my needs, which is a possibility I'm exploring.
2. Come up with sketches on how I want the website to look like. Now I'm assuming this is pen and paper sketches? Something like drawing where I want certain things to be placed in and how the website should function?
3. Get a UI/UX designer to turn those sketches into the real thing and finalize it. Try for contractors but be prepared for an hourly basis.
4. Get a full stack developer or 1 frontend and 1 backend developer. Which would be a better idea? Which method would cost more money?

Also, when trying to get quotes, should I make a document of how I want the completed project to work? Or should I withhold some features and information until I pick someone?

You might be able to do some designing but dont. User interface and User experience is far more than drawing beautiful wireframes. If this sucks people will not understand how to use your product nor will they become paying customers. Specifically to your situation, UI/UX and branding will be the reason why people will use your product/continue using it and not the product of a competitor with the same service.

Now that I know your circumstances slightly better this would be my approach to your situation.

1) Research phase (theoretical validation)
-Name/one liner/Problem/Solution/Market/Revenue model/competitor analysis/
-No issues identified; need clarified = move on.

2) Simple market research phase (concept validation)
-Customer interviews/surveys (problem & solution validation)
-(if you can build a super MVP without anything; use it as a tool to validate)
-Only if you have found a buyer/validation from customers you should spend money now.
-Talk to as many people as possible (more on this later)

3) Design: Branding
-You need a designer to do your branding as you cant do it yourself
-Luckily they are not that expensive

4) UI/UX Design
-You need a UI/UX designer to do the designs of your product. (they are relatively cheap)
-You sketch your imagination with pen & paper. A good designer will take it apart and not copy it 1:1. (functions included: Look up wireframes)
-Its ok to do a MVP design (the leaner the better)
-You need to go with your MVP design to customers and validate the UX (figma trials)
-You need to gather feedback from customers and potentially work with the UI/UX designer to reiterate the designs (extremely important)

5) Development (only when 1-4 completed)
-You need to take a role of a CTO and Project manager at the same time (bad combo)
-You may outsource to lower tier devs to reduce cost. Especially for skills you dont posses or for simple work you can easily outsource
-IMHO you should code as much as possible. Is your time 50-100 USD/h worth? because thats how much a good dev will cost you. Plus they will work their speed and end up costing more. You are the most productive person. You are the only one that really cares.
-Fullstack is quite often more expensive than just a frontend or backend guy.
-Trial your winning-feature in your MVP ASAP. Customer validation is best
-When you have paid customer validation you have the best validation for your product.
-Only then complete other features and pages.

There are other things one could add but this is the leanest & cheapest way to do it. If you cannot gain validation at one step; Stop. This is also the reason why you need to speak to as many people as possible. I know you worry too much that somebody will steal your idea but your idea is at this point worthless. You will have to assume that people will steal it later on anyway, if its good. Seriously, you could be spending so much money and waste so much time on an idea that turns out shit when it might take less than a minute for a different person to tear your concept apart. Gather the feedback, validate your hypothesis and build a network that can support and grow the business.

 

[Taz]

You might be able to do some designing but dont. User interface and User experience is far more than drawing beautiful wireframes. If this sucks people will not understand how to use your product nor will they become paying customers. Specifically to your situation, UI/UX and branding will be the reason why people will use your product/continue using it and not the product of a competitor with the same service.

Now that I know your circumstances slightly better this would be my approach to your situation.

1) Research phase (theoretical validation)
-Name/one liner/Problem/Solution/Market/Revenue model/competitor analysis/
-No issues identified; need clarified = move on.

2) Simple market research phase (concept validation)
-Customer interviews/surveys (problem & solution validation)
-(if you can build a super MVP without anything; use it as a tool to validate)
-Only if you have found a buyer/validation from customers you should spend money now.
-Talk to as many people as possible (more on this later)

3) Design: Branding
-You need a designer to do your branding as you cant do it yourself
-Luckily they are not that expensive

4) UI/UX Design
-You need a UI/UX designer to do the designs of your product. (they are relatively cheap)
-You sketch your imagination with pen & paper. A good designer will take it apart and not copy it 1:1. (functions included: Look up wireframes)
-Its ok to do a MVP design (the leaner the better)
-You need to go with your MVP design to customers and validate the UX (figma trials)
-You need to gather feedback from customers and potentially work with the UI/UX designer to reiterate the designs (extremely important)

5) Development (only when 1-4 completed)
-You need to take a role of a CTO and Project manager at the same time (bad combo)
-You may outsource to lower tier devs to reduce cost. Especially for skills you dont posses or for simple work you can easily outsource
-IMHO you should code as much as possible. Is your time 50-100 USD/h worth? because thats how much a good dev will cost you. Plus they will work their speed and end up costing more. You are the most productive person. You are the only one that really cares.
-Fullstack is quite often more expensive than just a frontend or backend guy.
-Trial your winning-feature in your MVP ASAP. Customer validation is best
-When you have paid customer validation you have the best validation for your product.
-Only then complete other features and pages.

There are other things one could add but this is the leanest & cheapest way to do it. If you cannot gain validation at one step; Stop. This is also the reason why you need to speak to as many people as possible. I know you worry too much that somebody will steal your idea but your idea is at this point worthless. You will have to assume that people will steal it later on anyway, if its good. Seriously, you could be spending so much money and waste so much time on an idea that turns out shit when it might take less than a minute for a different person to tear your concept apart. Gather the feedback, validate your hypothesis and build a network that can support and grow the business.

I see, I was starting at the wrong place, you've cleared that up for me thank! Quick question, by customer interviews, you mean potential customers that would use the platform?

 

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[PizzaOnTheRoof]

I took a course on HTML once.

I’ll do it for $5,000.

 

[Taz]

I took a course on HTML once.

I’ll do it for $5,000.

Sounds good, wiring the money now.