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This childhood personality trait influences how much money you'll make as an adult

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ChrisV

ChrisV

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Dude I'm asking if in this study they accounted for an important factor to determine it's accuracy, and giving an example of one where they didn't to give the question merit.

I'm not arguing against the big five. I know about it, I'm also well versed in statistics and p values, statistical significance, bayes theorem end all. My point is not to argue against academically accepted concepts based on one flawed study.

I was trying to determine if this study deserves any attention, because you used a click baity title. Calm down, I'm not your enemy..
Okay, fair enough. I misread then.

Re, clickbait: I just copy and pasted the title from MSN's website. I usually just post these when they come out to remind people how important controlling impulses, like this one:


I mean re: the newest large scale marshmallow study.. I mean I'd literally have to read through the entire thing to see what they did. The devil is in the details, and i honestly don't have the time. We know all of those things tend to cluster together... ie childhood poverty, impulsivity, low conscientiousness.. and we don't exactly know why. Certain genes seem to influence it, but that doesn't seem like the full answer. Another answer may be that impulsivity is an adaptive trait to cause put to 'get while the gettin is good.' The other answer is that impulsivity is simply the cause of most people's woes. I tend to think it's a combination of all of the above, but the main message here is that if you work on impulsivity and self-control, it acts as an upward spiral.
 

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Dude I'm asking if in this study they accounted for an important factor to determine it's accuracy, and giving an example of one where they didn't to give the question merit.

I'm not arguing against the big five. I know about it, I'm also well versed in statistics and p values, statistical significance, bayes theorem end all. My point is not to argue against academically accepted concepts based on one flawed study.

I was trying to determine if this study deserves any attention, because you used a click baity title. Calm down, I'm not your enemy..
And the criticisms of the Marshmallow experiment are fair. Walter Mischel went off the deep end finding a bunch of crap that probably wasn't there. He the attributed it to 'oh the kids who ignored it just didnt look.' The rest of the world was just as bad. They concluded that it was genetic when the evidence didn't fully point to that. One thing the evidence does point to is that impulsivity and poor life outcomes go together like Marshmallows and Smores. While this isn't an actual study, this author surveyed a couple hundred millionaires and found much of the same things:


All these things cluster together. Wealthy people go to the gym, they eat well, they control their alcohol intake. Why, is a whole 'nother topic.. but just for now we're showing that they cluster together.
 
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ChrisV

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Being good at following orders for instance might make you a better employee, but it certainly doesn't make you a better entrepreneur.
And yes, psychology seems to support this as well. The psychological profile of an entrepreneur is a lot like an artist or musician. They don't like following the norm or tradition. They're high in Openness to Experience (creativity) and not necessarily high in conscientiousness.

JP break it down well:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwH4cEOICGg
 

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I mean re: the newest large scale marshmallow study.. I mean I'd literally have to read through the entire thing to see what they did. The devil is in the details, and i honestly don't have the time. We know all of those things... ie childhood poverty, impulsivity, low conscientiousness.. and we don't exactly know why. Certain genes seem to influence it, but that doesn't seem like the full answer. Another answer may be that impulsivity is an adaptive trait to cause put to 'get while the gettin is good.' The other answer is that impulsivity is simply the cause of most people's woes. I tend to think it's a combination of all of the above, but the main message here is that if you work on impulsivity and self-control, it acts as an upward spiral.
That's why I subscribe to these channels, they do it for me, Scishow is better than most, they tend to do more and go the extra mile.

The cause in my opinion based on my evolutionary psychology knowledge is probably just 2 different evolutionary strategies. One that uses impulsivity, crime, short term focused. And one that uses conscientiousness, social conformity and long term focused.

The short term strategy stopped working around 50-100 years ago in the western world, with better technology, dna evidence, cameras etc. But before then it worked very well, you could commit crime with very little risk and get ahead that way.

What we are seeing now are the effects of the inability of this strategy to adapt and work in our modern environment. Most of the socioeconomical problems our society is going to face this century will probably be related to it imo.
 
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That's why I subscribe to these channels, they do it for me, Scishow is better than most, they tend to do more and go the extra mile.

The cause in my opinion based on my evolutionary psychology knowledge is probably just 2 different evolutionary strategies. One that uses impulsivity, crime, short term focused. And one that uses conscientiousness, social conformity and long term focused.

The short term strategy stopped working around 50-100 years ago in the western world, with better technology, dna evidence, cameras etc. But before then it worked very well, you could commit crime with very little risk and get ahead that way.

What we are seeing now are the effects of the inability of this strategy to adapt and work in our modern environment. Most of the socioeconomical problems our society is going to face this century will probably be related to it imo.
Yea.. conscientiousness is helpful in a stable society. But if everything went to shit and the economy collapsed, impulsive people actually have the advantage. Let's say you spent your whole life saving money, then one day the economy just went to shit (like what happened in Germany) then all those years you went toiling away for the future just went up in flames. That's much of the reason the Germans were so bitter after WW1. You have a few million dollars saved, now the economy is such that you can barely live. So conscientiousness is only beneficial when there's stability.

I don't know that conscientiousness even really existed prior to agriculture and the industrial revolution. Like, we don't see that behavior much in other animals aside from maybe squirrels. The fact that we can refrigerate food, save money, etc makes it 'living for a better tomorrow' makes sense. In a hunter/gather society I can't see how that behavior would be beneficial. I think it may be a very very recent evolutionary adaptation.

And it could be that we all have the ability to be conscientious, but those who grew up in an unstable environment never 'turned on that switch' while those who grew up in an upper middle class home learned (through operant conditioning) that that's a good way to live. That could explain the discrepancies in the studies. Like... It could be that people who grew up impoverished areas simply learned that being conscientious isn't adaptive for them. For instance if you grew up in a rough ghetto where stability isn't guaranteed. Or If you grew up in Africa and toiled away for tomorrow and stored all your money in a mattress you'd likely just have some crook break in and steal your life's work. Places like those, conscientiousness probably isn't that great of a strategy. But conscientious people do well with structure.

Conscientiousness seems to have a lot to do with the Prefrontal cortex, which is the most recent addition to our brains, and is more highly developed in humans than any other animal. That's part of the reason I suspect this behavior is pretty new evolutionarily.
 

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This article is probably wrong. When I was a child, I hated maths and got low scores. Now that I am 16, I love maths (I love it more than humans [except me and my parents]) and consequently much better at it, to the point I am doing college math now. This means that a drastic change took place.

I was never ambitious as a child, but I am becoming more and more as I grow up. I was asocial and shy as a child, now I am not shy. Things change drastically, and this article/research doesn't take that in account. I do not know about attention though. Whenever I am thinking of something, I can't hear what others are saying or can't focus on anything else. I don't know if this is bad or not, but it is problematic sometimes.
 
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I barely read this thread, all I saw was the title and I shook my head.

Why is the thread even this long?

Success can't be inherited. Regardless if you're born 6ft 7, with a high IQ or gorgeous face, at the end of the day the only thing that matters is this - how can you apply yourself to this world in the most effective way possible?

It's all within the execution, which is completely under your control.

I'm very disappointed that this article/BS was shared on this forum. Stop wasting time and make money, broke boys.
 
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ChrisV

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See, this is why I leave this forum for months on end. It's not everyone, but a good 20% who can't even read between the lines and understand the point. And this, right here... is the danger of denouncing formal education.

I don't like spelling things out, because it's generally insulting to your audience. When you write (or post) something, you should assume that your audience has the intelligence enough to read between the lines, and to be fair, most here have so far. But apparently I'm going to have to spell it out, since the other 20% of you can't figure out.

IT'S NOT CHILDHOOD IMPULSIVITY THAT MKES YOU POOR, IT'S YOUR IMPULSIVITY NOW. If you were impulsive as a child, you're likely impulsive as an adult.

This guy just 'read the title.'

I barely read this thread, all I saw was the title and I shook my head.
@PizzaOnTheRoof @ChrisV If you truly want to improve your focus skill, your concentration skill, then get good at meditating.

Focusing is a skill. We born sucking a$$ at it. However, most people that believe they are not good at focusing are still excellent at focusing on some things. Which goes to say a thing or two. Meditation is the most straightforward way to improve the skill. How is very simple. First meditate for 1 min. Then 2 min. Then 5 min. Then 10 min. Then continue to double it until you are at 120 min. Keep going if you want, but I find 2 hours of meditation good enough for nearly anything you want to do, and well once you can do that there's a lot of fun to be had there too.

@guy93777 I do not think most believe they have absolute control. Rather there are many things that are in our control.
See this guy? This guy gets it. @GatsbyMag, be more like @Tourmaline. @Sadik be more like @Fassina

F*ck. Sometimes I feel like this forum isn't good for my blood pressure. I'm gonna need another vacation.
 

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This article is probably wrong. When I was a child, I hated maths and got low scores. Now that I am 16, I love maths (I love it more than humans [except me and my parents]) and consequently much better at it, to the point I am doing college math now. This means that a drastic change took place.

I was never ambitious as a child, but I am becoming more and more as I grow up. I was asocial and shy as a child, now I am not shy. Things change drastically, and this article/research doesn't take that in account. I do not know about attention though. Whenever I am thinking of something, I can't hear what others are saying or can't focus on anything else. I don't know if this is bad or not, but it is problematic sometimes.
And I'll reply to this because he's young and I wish someone drilled this into my head when I was a kid (seriously.) Your 1 experience does not get to disprove the recorded, highly controlled experiences of 2,850 study participants. When we do these studies, we record all the data then take the averages. It's almost like saying "The average income in the US is $50,000/yr" and someone comes along and says "I don't think this is true, my dad made 120K/yr." Um okay? He's one single data point that we've already taken into consideration when creating the average. It doesnt mean that 100% of people make 50K/yr.

if you love math so much, please learn this. It's one of the most important concepts there are.
 
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And I'll reply to this because he's young and I wish someone drilled this into my head when I was a kid (seriously.) Your 1 experience does not get to disprove the recorded, highly controlled experiences of 2,850 study participants. When we do these studies, we record all the data then take the averages. It's almost like saying "The average income in the US is $50,000/yr" and someone comes along and says "I don't think this is true, my dad made 120K/yr." Um okay? He's one single data point that we've already taken into consideration when creating the average. It doesnt mean that 100% of people make 50K/yr.

if you love math so much, please learn this. It's one of the most important concepts there are.
I made a mistake. I understand the fallacy of my argument, it just didn't occur to me when I wrote it. I think I should make an edit saying I got it or I'll get more replies regarding this.
 
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I made a mistake. I understand the fallacy of my argument, it just didn't occur to me when I wrote it. I think I should make an edit saying I got it or I'll get more replies regarding this.
It's fine.
 
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"social science" is still hilarious. How much did they spend confirming what is already known? lmao
One thing: this is a big pet peeve of mine. So, just because something is known in the court of public opinion doesn't mean we don't have to empirically study it. Scientific evidence is like a court case. Sometimes there are things that 'everybody knows' but regardless, you still have to prove it. Everybody in the city might know that John Gotti is the head of the Gambino crime family, but you just throw him to jail without the evidence. And most importantly, popular opinion very often turns out to be totally wrong. In this case it may be correct, but there are plenty of things that 'everybody knows' but then when we test them, public opinion turns out to be completely wrong. Human intuition is notoriously flawed which is why we have to rely on clinical trials and hard data like this.
 

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See, this is why I leave this forum for months on end. It's not everyone, but a good 20% who can't even read between the lines and understand the point. And this, right here... is the danger of denouncing formal education.

I don't like spelling things out, because it's generally insulting to your audience. When you write (or post) something, you should assume that your audience has the intelligence enough to read between the lines, and to be fair, most here have so far. But apparently I'm going to have to spell it out, since the other 20% of you can't figure out.

IT'S NOT CHILDHOOD IMPULSIVITY THAT MKES YOU POOR, IT'S YOUR IMPULSIVITY NOW. If you were impulsive as a child, you're likely impulsive as an adult.

This guy just 'read the title.'





See this guy? This guy gets it. @GatsbyMag, be more like @Tourmaline. @Sadik be more like @Fassina

F*ck. Sometimes I feel like this forum isn't good for my blood pressure. I'm gonna need another vacation.
Lolz, calm down @ChrisV, get that BP down to normal :)

I think the reason you get so much push back on these posts, is because people here are so mired in the no excuses, it's all down to me culture, that they see anything like this as an attack on it.

Unfortunately they confuse somebody who whines about life not being fair, with someone like yourself who points out very valid psychological and personality traits that go into making a human being. I haven't even watched the video yet, just read some of the replies and backs and forths on the thread. However I'm sure the research is bonafide...

Anyway, people don't like being told there are things that happen that are beyond our control, or that certain personality traits lean towards certain actions. However the evidence of such surrounds us every day. Would Shaq have been an NBA star player if he was 5'6" and weighed 140 pounds? Maybe, but probably not, as his small stature would have worked directly against him.

Of course you will always see a Spud Webb in the NBA, somebody who isn't over 6'6" and still manages to be great, however it's not the norm and the number one thing you need to be a great basketball player is height, which of course totally beyond your control.

Another example of this is the marshmallow experiment, whereby children who managed to delay gratification by waiting for a bigger reward (more marshmallows) at the expense of instant gratification (they got to eat the marshmallow immediately), did better in adult life than the ones who ate the sweet straight away.

Now of cause there are various correlation/causation questions to ask here, like what was the socioeconomic spread of the children. However as far as I can work out, the experiment(s) took that into account.

Anyway, thanks for the video, keep posting that stuff you seem to have a knack for discovering it.
 

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This article is probably wrong. When I was a child, I hated maths and got low scores. Now that I am 16,
I hate to break it to you, but you're still a child, a mature one, but still a child :)
 

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Lolz, calm down @ChrisV, get that BP down to normal :)

I think the reason you get so much push back on these posts, is because people here are so mired in the no excuses, it's all down to me culture, that they see anything like this as an attack on it.

Unfortunately they confuse somebody who whines about life not being fair, with someone like yourself who points out very valid psychological and personality traits that go into making a human being. I haven't even watched the video yet, just read some of the replies and backs and forths on the thread. However I'm sure the research is bonafide...

Anyway, people don't like being told there are things that happen that are beyond our control, or that certain personality traits lean towards certain actions. However the evidence of such surrounds us every day. Would Shaq have been an NBA star player if he was 5'6" and weighed 140 pounds? Maybe, but probably not, as his small stature would have worked directly against him.

Of course you will always see a Spud Webb in the NBA, somebody who isn't over 6'6" and still manages to be great, however it's not the norm and the number one thing you need to be a great basketball player is height, which of course totally beyond your control.

Another example of this is the marshmallow experiment, whereby children who managed to delay gratification by waiting for a bigger reward (more marshmallows) at the expense of instant gratification (they got to eat the marshmallow immediately), did better in adult life than the ones who ate the sweet straight away.
Hahaha thank you. See I need to understand this stuff because since impulsivity leads to poorer performance, if we can take measures to curb impulsivity we can perform better at almost everything. I have a big important post coming on that that I think you'll love too. Curbing impulsivity is one of the #1 best things you can do for success.

Actually now that you mention basketball, you got me thinking. I wonder if with some ingenuity a short guy actually could make it in the NBA

Maybe by using a different style someone could use being short as an advantage to be nimble and agile enough to bounce through other players. I mean think about why height matters. Height matters (as far as I can tell) because you're simply closer to the net, making it easier for them to score and defend against other players' shots. But what if rather than being a great scorer the short guy was just a great assist. He played the field in a way where he was great at getting the ball to tall players that were nearer the net. Or maybe the reason that tall NBA players do so well is they're just using a style that's only suited for tall players. Like in baseball you have outfielders, catchers, pitchers, and each niche has different strengths.

Or maybe you could innovate a style better suited for short guys. For instance wrestling was always about brute force. Then Carlos Gracie came along, this tiny skinny guy who did Brazilian Ju Jitsu, and nobody could touch them. He used physics and leverage rather than brute force to dominate his opponents. Now BJJ is all over MMA. He was one of the top fighters of all time, and some of the other members of the Gracie Brazilian BJJ family were even more frail. But they positively annihilated the competition. But before Gracie people probably would have said "you need genes that are good for strength to be a good fighter" but by coming up with a style that was better suited for their body type, they were able to dominate even without those genes.

So maybe there could be a basketball style that can be innovated that's simply better suited for smaller guys.

I say this because maybe with some innovation and determination maybe even many of our hard limitations can be overcome.

So pay attention to that guys. I'm not for making excuses at all. I'm for understanding what is, because it's only when you understand what is that you can come up with what can be.

Now of cause there are various correlation/causation questions to ask here, like what was the socioeconomic spread of the children. However as far as I can work out, the experiment(s) took that into account.

Anyway, thanks for the video, keep posting that stuff you seem to have a knack for discovering it.
The new version of the Marshmallow Experiment accounted for Socioeconomic status, and the effect size got cut in half. It was originally something like .6, but after controlling for SES it was something like .3. It kinda aggravated me because all the pop science articles came out saying "Marshmallow test debunked!" and that's not the case at all. It was just smaller when you controlled for SES, which is to be expected. Correlations usually go down when you add controls.
 

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I wonder if with some ingenuity a short guy actually could make it in the NBA
I mentioned Spud Webb (showing my age), he was 5'8" and was an NBA star. There is also some guy called Mugsy Bogues I think. He's also under 5'9".

So it can be done, as you allude to, being short on a court full of giants can actually be an advantage. However being tall will automatically start you off with one of the best traits to have as a baller. Of course you need athleticism, hand-eye coordination, speed and a bunch of other attributes. The point is in the NBA being tall with all of these will get you further than being short....


Looking forward to your compulsion post.

Oh and thanks for the heads up on the adjusted marshmallow experiment. Like you say, it's to be expected, however it shows that the effect is still there.
 

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Hey guys,

I still didn't read the thread - I saw some guy make an angry reply to my message, something about meditating and some BS.

Definitely broke.

Meditation, reading books, listening to podcasts -- mostly action fakes

If you had to read another entrepreneurship book after MJ DeMarco's first publication, you're just procrastinating.

The only education is doing. Sorry to break it to you folks.

Also, notice the length of time it took me to follow-up on this thread? Lesson in there - and I'm probably the youngest member of this forum too - ouch.
 

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Meditation, reading books, listening to podcasts -- mostly action fakes
You've come to the wrong place buddy. This forum is fun of avid readers and avid meditators. And with that, you've just earned the top spot on my ignore list.

For anyone else reading, Meditation is one of the single best things you can do for your life. Meditation has improved success in every single area of my life.

Tim Ferris's book Tools of Titans: The Tactics, Routines, and Habits of Billionaires, Icons, and World-Class Performers

WHAT DO THEY HAVE IN COMMON?
In this book, you’ll naturally look for common habits and recommendations, and you should. Here are a few patterns, some odder than others:
More than 80% of the interviewees have some form of daily mindfulness or meditationpractice”
Excerpt From: Timothy Ferriss. “Tools of Titans.” Apple Books.


From the Rich Habits survey:

WealthyPovertySelf-Made
READ - LISTEN TO AUDIO BOOKS DURING COMUTE TO WORK63%5%
READ - LOVE READING86%26%
READ 2 OR MORE EDUCATION, CAREER-RELATED OR SELF-IMPROVEMENT BOOKS PER MONTH85%15%
READ 30 MINUTES EACH DAY EDUCATION, CAREER OR SELF-IMPROVEMENT88%2%96%
READ BIOGRAPHIES OF SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE58%9%68%
READ CURRENT EVENTS94%11%93%
READ EDUCATIONAL MATERIAL79%6%95%
READ FINANCIAL MATERIAL (I.E. WSJ, MONEY MAG, KIPLINGERS ETC)45%7%56%
READ FOR ENTERTAINMENT11%79%3%
READ HISTORY51%16%50%
READ SELF-HELP55%7%71%
READ SOMETHING INSPIRATIONAL EVERY DAY66%7%56%
MEDITATE (VISUALIZATION) DAILY 5 MINUTES OR MORE49%4%
 

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if David Goggins found a way despite severe child abuse and developmental problems, almost anyone can do it too.
 

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Ah I think I should not write short posts. I meant what was in the past is no longer in our control. Someone may have had poor attention span thirty years ago. That doesn't define him today. If I continue to believe that because my Kindergarten teacher thought I have poor attention span thirty years ago hence I cannot make money, I am relinquishing control, blaming something which I can no longer change (my past history).

This seems to me just one more limiting belief. Yes, of course many people struggle with mental health issues and they are obviously exceptions to this rule, but generally isn't it best to evaluate your current situation, take ownership and commit to improving yourself and work hard instead of believing that your childhood behavior has doomed you for life?
I think those articles are bullshit too. I can’t focus for shit. At least on schoolwork back when I was in school. There are no rules. Just a bunch of people thinking there’s a formula they need to follow to be successful. Rules are broken and exceptions are made every day of people becoming successful in spite of traditional advice.
 
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I think those articles are bullshit too. I can’t focus for shit. At least on schoolwork back when I was in school. There are no rules. Just a bunch of people thinking there’s a formula they need to follow to be successful. Rules are broken and exceptions are made every day of people becoming successful in spite of traditional advice.
There are always going to be outliers, but there are trends and generalizations that are useful to follow. The outliers usually have something else that helps them. Your typical inattentive person isn't going to succeed in life.
 

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