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HOT TOPIC The Worldwide Covid-19 Coronavirus Pandemic Discussion Thread...

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Determined2012

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People still being told to come to work at this time should all be receiving hazard pay!

If you are in a union its time to start organizing.
 

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Rivoli

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Look who's back out of quarantine, bitches!
That’s right. I would copy and paste all of @Vigilante and @Kak and others posts calling me a “sociopath“ for thinking a completely destruction of our economy to stop whats basically the flu (death rate ~0.3%) but I don’t even care anymore. I know my viewpoint will end up winning. This is not the virus you shut the economy down for. I hope the over reactors pay a price for the damage they’ve done.
 

Vigilante

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That’s right. I would copy and paste all of @Vigilante and @Kak and others posts calling me a “sociopath“ for thinking a completely destruction of our economy to stop whats basically the flu (death rate ~0.3%) but I don’t even care anymore. I know my viewpoint will end up winning. This is not the virus you shut the economy down for. I hope the over reactors pay a price for the damage they’ve done.
winning? As if this is some type of F*cking game? Congratulations. I am breaking my own personal policy of never ignoring anybody on this forum. There of been a lot of dumbasses that have come and gone over the years but I always limited myself from ignoring them for the betterment of being fair to MJ as a moderator able to intercede.

I’m breaking my own policy tonight. Congratulations, you’re the first poster in the history of the forum I’ve ever put on ignore.

Good luck “winning” The coronavirus debate.
 

Rivoli

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We are truly in an upside-down world. The NYT wants you to believe that SARS-2, as of today, is overwhelming NYC’s hospitals.

NYC has 8 million people, the total hospitalizations in the state is 3,805.

There are 23,000 hospital beds in NYC alone. They say about 70% are usually taken. How on earth is NYC “overwhelmed”. They should have around 7,000 open beds in that city alone.

I fear that so much of the media is so misleading these days, for want of either clicks or to undermine the president.
 

Kak

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That’s right. I would copy and paste all of @Vigilante and @Kak and others posts calling me a “sociopath“ for thinking a completely destruction of our economy to stop whats basically the flu (death rate ~0.3%) but I don’t even care anymore. I know my viewpoint will end up winning. This is not the virus you shut the economy down for. I hope the over reactors pay a price for the damage they’ve done.
Go looking for it. You won’t find it.

Tact however? Your’s is... “a nothingburger.”
 
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Rivoli

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winning? As if this is some type of F*cking game? Congratulations. I am breaking my own personal policy of never ignoring anybody on this forum. There of been a lot of dumbasses that have come and gone over the years but I always limited myself from ignoring them for the betterment of being fair to MJ as a moderator able to intercede.

I’m breaking my own policy tonight. Congratulations, you’re the first poster in the history of the forum I’ve ever put on ignore.

Good luck “winning” The coronavirus debate.
No. It’s not a game. That’s my point. People have disagreements with the response the government has and peoples lives are at stake. In disagreements theres a winning side and a losing side.

Some people like you apparently, love to morally grandstand and criticize people who disagree with you rather than calmly respond with facts. It’s maddening.

If you’re the kind that acts on emotions rather than facts, go ahead and ignore me. It’s not a worthwhile discussion anyway.
 
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msufan

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So I just laid off 20 employees that have been with me for the past 3 years thanks to this stupid lockdown.

Less than 1,000 people have died in Italy, yet people are losing their minds.
Just for accuracy's sake: More than 7,500 people in Italy have died, and more than 21,000 total. Coronavirus Dashboard

Also, regarding Kak's posts encouraging government nonintervention, it seems to me the old adage that says "My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins" applies here. Because your choices to not "social distance" could harm others, that's why it's a legit use of government authority to step in.
 

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Rivoli

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Just for accuracy's sake: More than 7,500 people in Italy have died, and more than 21,000 total. Coronavirus Dashboard

Also, regarding Kak's posts encouraging government nonintervention, it seems to me the old adage that says "My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins" applies here. Because your choices to not "social distance" could harm others, that's why it's a legit use of government authority to step in.

That’s not true.

“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says. ”

 

Rivoli

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That’s not true.

“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says. ”

How countries report deaths is not being looked at apples for apples.
 
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lowtek

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Just for accuracy's sake: More than 7,500 people in Italy have died, and more than 21,000 total. Coronavirus Dashboard

Also, regarding Kak's posts encouraging government nonintervention, it seems to me the old adage that says "My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins" applies here. Because your choices to not "social distance" could harm others, that's why it's a legit use of government authority to step in.
But ... that doesn't make sense. If some people aren't "social distancing", how does that affect other people? If you are social distancing, that means you aren't interacting with those that aren't. Hence, they present no threat to you. The only people who are affected by those who aren't socially distancing, are those that are also out and about, and they are accepting that risk.

In fact, one could argue they're doing you a favor. We have no idea if there will be a vaccine in the near future, but we do know that herd immunity is a thing, at least with other viruses. The more people that go on their merry way and get the virus, the vast majority of whom will have minor symptoms, the faster we get to herd immunity and the sooner the rest of us can emerge from isolation.

Worse yet, it's a bit of a catch-22. The more people that isolate themselves, the worse the economy gets, and the harder it gets to treat the sick. Medical care doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's part and parcel of the economy and it is just as dependent on operational supply lines as everything else. You can't have supply lines with people going about their daily lives.

Note, my family and I are personally isolating. My in laws are living with us for a few months, and both are mid 60s with a history of health issues that make them high risk. On the rare occasions (every 10 - 14 days) I do food pickup (i.e. only interact with a single person who brings the food to my car), I wear a mask and wipe everything down to mitigate risk. I'm grateful that the people who work at the grocery store are not isolating themselves, because if they were... how would I get food?
 

WillHurtDontCare

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MTEE1985

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That’s not true.

“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says. ”

For that argument to be true wouldn’t we have to assume that every single Italian who contracted Covid19 and subsequently died would have died anyway at the same time had they not been infected?

Otherwise his argument is akin to saying “this guy fell off a cliff but he had a heart condition so we can’t say for sure what killed him.”
 
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Tubs

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So I just laid off 20 employees that have been with me for the past 3 years thanks to this stupid lockdown.

Less than 1,000 people have died in Italy, yet people are losing their minds.
7,500 dead in Italy
1,000 dead in the U.S as of tonight.

Source: Operations Dashboard for ArcGIS
 

GIlman

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We are truly in an upside-down world. The NYT wants you to believe that SARS-2, as of today, is overwhelming NYC’s hospitals.

NYC has 8 million people, the total hospitalizations in the state is 3,805.

There are 23,000 hospital beds in NYC alone. They say about 70% are usually taken. How on earth is NYC “overwhelmed”. They should have around 7,000 open beds in that city alone.

I fear that so much of the media is so misleading these days, for want of either clicks or to undermine the president.
how do I ignore someone on the forum?
 

biophase

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So I just laid off 20 employees that have been with me for the past 3 years thanks to this stupid lockdown.

Less than 1,000 people have died in Italy, yet people are losing their minds.
Oh no, you had to lay off 20 people. I guess it would have been better if you just killed one of them and let the 19 others keep their jobs.
 

Primeperiwinkle

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how do I ignore someone on the forum?
You go to their profile directly and do it from there.
 

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PizzaOnTheRoof

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Oh no, you had to lay off 20 people. I guess it would have been better if you just killed one of them and let the 19 others keep their jobs.
According to many people here that’s exactly what should be done.

Nevermind the collective health of the population (2/3rds obese, high BP, etc), as long as I’m not affected F*ck it!

As if letting a pandemic with a 10x death rate than the flu rip through the population won’t hurt the economy either.

Hospitals aren’t full yet! Let ‘er rip!
 

ChickenHawk

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The government-enforced closures, I believe, are designed to flatten the curve so that even if a million people are infected, they're not infected all at once.

The sharp upward curve of infected people is what's really slaughtering the health care system in Italy. They don't have enough ICU beds or staff to deal with so many seriously ill people at the same time. As a result, they're unplugging granny to give the ventilator to someone younger. The doctors and nurses are working nonstop. Many are dying, partly because it all happened so fast, and they're short of supplies, time, and proven treatment methods. (Plus, it takes what, 30 years to produce a replacement doctor?)

The government-enforced closures buy everyone some time, perhaps to find a vaccine or better treatments, perhaps to produce more protective equipment, or perhaps simply to make sure that there's a better ratio of hospital beds to people needing them -- and to reduce the odds of having to tell Granny, "Sorry, no ventilator for you."

Normally, I'm hugely against government intervention. But in this case, I think they're doing the right thing in doing whatever they can to slow down the spread of this. Short-term, it sucks. But long term, I believe it will save us time, money, and lives.
 

ChickenHawk

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A friend of a friend works at a hospital in Detroit. Here's what was relayed to me tonight...
"The hospital is way overtaken with patients. They don't have enough protective equipment. The bosses are in tears, crying because they don't know what to do. If you don't stay with the patient at all times, they are pretty much dying, and there's nothing you can do."

IMO, this is going to get worse before it gets better.
 

Mckenzie

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Someone from my other group posted this: a novel written in 1981 which involved a story of a virus originating in Wuhan China, here are some pages:
 

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c4n

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Less than 1,000 people have died in Italy, yet people are losing their minds.
That’s not true.

You're right.

On a normal day in Italy, they only have 9 military trucks driving corpses from hospitals. Now it's 10 trucks because COVID-19 added an extra 12% on top of the regular daily dose.

Thanks, it makes all the sense now! Make sure you book your flight to Italy now while it's cheap. Rome without the queues must be even more beautiful!
 

MTF

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As pretty much everyone in this thread, I'm not an expert. I'm not taking any sides, either. Just wanted to point out something that I feel many people are missing as if it wasn't important while everyone is constantly checking the rising numbers of cases and deaths - the long-term effects of a lockdown, including countless personal tragedies and deaths, too.

There's no denying that without flattening the curve there would be many more deaths. It's also obvious that if "certain" countries decided to act as soon as possible there might have been no need for such restrictive measures (as the examples of still functioning relatively normally Singapore, South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan show as well as certain smaller countries that acted fast - here in Barbados the government and private business, without mandatory measures, took immediate action after identifying the first cases).

But the countries currently struggling the most are whey they are and they can't go back and implement the diligent Asian measures sooner. At this point, the question is whether it can really be contained given thousands of cases and the inability to properly perform contact tracing which has been so essential in countries that weren't as affected.

Which brings me to a thought I've been having recently: what if while everyone is focused on the current cases, it turns out that the biggest death toll will come later due to the effects of strict, economy-destroying measures? I'm not arguing for dollars here but for lives, too.

A study by researchers at Imperial College London linked 500,000 cancer deaths to the Great Recession. They found unemployment and health care cuts lead to these half a million tragedies (non paywall source mentioning this article: Chillingly, Scariest Coronavirus Death Toll May Not Come from COVID-19)

A study by University of Oxford researchers found 10,000 suicides tied to the Great Recession. That was in the US, Canada, and Europe alone.

The psychological strain of loneliness manifests physiologically, too. Harry Taylor, who studies social isolation in older adults, particularly in the black community, says that it’s one of the worst things that humans can do to their overall well-being, adding that “the mortality effect of social isolation is like smoking 15 cigarettes per day.” In older people, social isolation seems to exacerbate any preexisting medical conditions, from cardiovascular diseases to Alzheimer’s, but its ill effects aren’t limited to those over 60. (source: What Coronavirus Isolation Could Do to Your Mind (and Body))

The vulnerable today might avoid the virus (that isn't guaranteed to kill them) only to die later due to a lack of resources in hospitals caused by an economic downturn the world hasn't yet seen before. High stress can lead to cancer and other deadly diseases and health disorders. Strict isolation measures can ruin mental health and lead not only to indescribable suffering but also suicides.

All of this can be much worse than the casualties so far. It's a horrible trade-off, but that's where we are due to the failure of taking action sooner. I feel there should be a public discussion regarding what's the lesser of two evils now.

Oh no, you had to lay off 20 people. I guess it would have been better if you just killed one of them and let the 19 others keep their jobs.
I get your point about economic effects not comparable to deaths. But what if because of a prolonged shutdown of the economy those 20 people can't find a job at all? What about their families that might now suffer hunger or enter a generational cycle of poverty? What if one of those 20 people commits suicide, unable to cope with the difficult situation? What if some of those 20 people or some of their family members get sick (after the current epidemic ends) and they can't afford treatment (cancer is a likely outcome of an extremely stressful trauma)? What if some of those 20 people need to resort to crime just to put some food on the table?

The deaths from coronavirus make headlines. Deaths from causes that can't be directly traced to it don't. Yet both are tragic and the secondary effects (the longer the lockdowns lasts, the worse) might eventually cause many more deaths (note the word "might" - I have no idea, just wanted to offer a different perspective).

I'm not arguing - just wanted to point out a different perspective which I feel is being ignored. Right now it might feel as if the world is ending but it will continue and we might have to face a much bigger death toll due to these secondary effects.

Again, I'm not taking any sides. I'm not an expert. I wouldn't want to be in a position where I have to choose which approach to follow. I too have family members that are vulnerable and I certainly don't think that it's fine for the elderly or other vulnerable people (or anyone for that matter) to die. It's a horrible trade-off either way. I'm just wondering if any countries around the world compared the short-term (still horrible) damages to the long-term effects (that might be even more horrible - or maybe not?).
 

MTEE1985

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EsJay

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Such a thought provoking thread! With all the justifications I have read and understand the point at intellectual level, I still can’t digest this thought. I understand the point that people will starve, families will suffer if there is no economy but price of that is letting some people die?

I remember a childhood story where a village has to sacrifice a human a day to save the village from a dragon’s wrath and how village king would choose someone from village to sacrifice rather than fighting with the dragon (or something like that). Most of the people who are talking such things is probably because no one in family or loved one is impacted by crisis Or think it will not touch them.

Think about a moment and the story if the king asks you to sacrifice your parents, cousin, sister, friend, someone who you love would you sacrifice so that everyone else is saved (economy), would you handover your mom, dad or whoever you love the most or would rather fight with your best ability?
 

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