The Entrepreneur Forum | Financial Freedom | Starting a Business | Motivation | Money | Success

Welcome to the only entrepreneur forum dedicated to building life-changing wealth.

Build a Fastlane business. Earn real financial freedom. Join free.

Join over 80,000 entrepreneurs who have rejected the paradigm of mediocrity and said "NO!" to underpaid jobs, ascetic frugality, and suffocating savings rituals— learn how to build a Fastlane business that pays both freedom and lifestyle affluence.

Free registration at the forum removes this block.

The Tesla and Electric Car Money-Saving Scam

Seamster

Bronze Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
139%
May 21, 2019
107
149
The Rust Belt; MI
Hi, guys. You have probably seen instances where people "spend money to save money." You know, buy that new frypan so you can have restaurant quality burgers and home and that will save you money! Does it really? No. And does buying a Tesla or other "cool" electric car save you money? Well, since it's "cool," you convince yourself that it does. It does not. (If it was all about savings then everyone would be driving an Elio car.) Before going any further, I must say, that if you have money to buy a Tesla and want one, then do what you like with your money. You win and don't need to read any further. Second, if you're an idiot who a) doesn't have a lot of money but b) insist in driving a new BMW, Mercedes, or even Cadillac, then yes, a Tesla will save you money. For everyone else, read on.

I will show you some numbers that are heavily weighted in the direction of the Tesla Model 3 vs buying a Toyota Camry. Gas throughout most areas of IL, OH, TN, KY, AL, MS FL, TX etc. has been $2/gallon. Electricity is $0.13/kilowatt hour. We're going to use $2.50 gas. (If you have $3.50 gas and $0.16 electricity where you live then the numbers might change.) This assumes buying the car new, which again favors the Tesla and the money-waster because we know you can get a 1-2 year old Camry for 25% off of its original price.

First let's convert some electric vehicles to their MPG equivalents (not the "MPGe" BS they put in on the window stickers). We're going to assume warm weather. This again favors the electric vehicle which would have reduced range in cold temperatures. Gas engines will vary but not as much.

1607444788971.png

As you can see the electric vehicles are not as efficient when we transfer them into a dollar-based MPG equivalent. About double the MPG for a similar sized vehicle. Note that I feel the Tesla Model 3 is more comparable to the Honda Civic than the Camry (Camry is about 12" longer) and the Civic new is only $21,000. Yet, as mentioned, this is weighted in favor of the electric car. Below we used 15,000 miles per year, which is a lot, again favoring electric. And we did not factor in cost of a 220v charger, any battery replacement, etc.

1607446926384.png

So, as you can see, even in summer, driving a lot of miles, the Tesla Model 3 is more expensive to operate over 10 years vs the larger Toyota Camry.

Finally, here's a handy chart showing how if you have an older car getting 30 MPG, you shouldn't spend $30,000 for a new 40 MPG hybrid because it's better on gas (but if you have an old 12 MPG pickup truck, you might want to). It will take many, many years to make up those savings.

1607447594215.png

Make your decisions based on need and numbers, not the opinions of others!
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

csalvato

Legendary Contributor
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
Read Fastlane!
Summit Attendee
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
297%
May 5, 2014
2,058
6,106
39
Rocky Mountain West
Hi, guys. You have probably seen instances where people "spend money to save money." You know, buy that new frypan so you can have restaurant quality burgers and home and that will save you money! Does it really? No. And does buying a Tesla or other "cool" electric car save you money? Well, since it's "cool," you convince yourself that it does. It does not. (If it was all about savings then everyone would be driving an Elio car.) Before going any further, I must say, that if you have money to buy a Tesla and want one, then do what you like with your money. You win and don't need to read any further. Second, if you're an idiot who a) doesn't have a lot of money but b) insist in driving a new BMW, Mercedes, or even Cadillac, then yes, a Tesla will save you money. For everyone else, read on.

I will show you some numbers that are heavily weighted in the direction of the Tesla Model 3 vs buying a Toyota Camry. Gas throughout most areas of IL, OH, TN, KY, AL, MS FL, TX etc. has been $2/gallon. Electricity is $0.13/kilowatt hour. We're going to use $2.50 gas. (If you have $3.50 gas and $0.16 electricity where you live then the numbers might change.) This assumes buying the car new, which again favors the Tesla and the money-waster because we know you can get a 1-2 year old Camry for 25% off of its original price.

First let's convert some electric vehicles to their MPG equivalents (not the "MPGe" BS they put in on the window stickers). We're going to assume warm weather. This again favors the electric vehicle which would have reduced range in cold temperatures. Gas engines will vary but not as much.

View attachment 35902

As you can see the electric vehicles are not as efficient when we transfer them into a dollar-based MPG equivalent. About double the MPG for a similar sized vehicle. Note that I feel the Tesla Model 3 is more comparable to the Honda Civic than the Camry (Camry is about 12" longer) and the Civic new is only $21,000. Yet, as mentioned, this is weighted in favor of the electric car. Below we used 15,000 miles per year, which is a lot, again favoring electric. And we did not factor in cost of a 220v charger, any battery replacement, etc.

View attachment 35903

So, as you can see, even in summer, driving a lot of miles, the Tesla Model 3 is more expensive to operate over 10 years vs the larger Toyota Camry.

Finally, here's a handy chart showing how if you have an older car getting 30 MPG, you shouldn't spend $30,000 for a new 40 MPG hybrid because it's better on gas (but if you have an old 12 MPG pickup truck, you might want to). It will take many, many years to make up those savings.

View attachment 35904

Make your decisions based on need and numbers, not the opinions of others!
As someone who owned an electric vehicle, I can definitely say that the gas costs are lower, but the overall cost of the vehicle is the same (or even higher).

That's mostly because the tires on an EV wear down about 5x faster than that of an ICE vehicle - something that no one really talks about, for some reason, even though EV tires are incredibly expensive.
 

MJ DeMarco

I followed the science; all I found was money.
Staff member
FASTLANE INSIDER
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
Read Rat-Race Escape!
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Summit Attendee
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
445%
Jul 23, 2007
38,083
169,524
Utah
Make your decisions based on need and numbers, not the opinions of others!

That's why I love math ... it rarely lies unless the person supplying the math is lying.

Thanks for sharing a data-driven opinion.
 

CareCPA

Platinum Contributor
FASTLANE INSIDER
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Summit Attendee
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
356%
May 2, 2017
976
3,479
35
Pennsylvania
I'm not disagreeing with the math as presented, but the handwaving around "gas cars have more maintenance but electric cars are more expensive to fix" seems pretty significant.

It also discounts that if you bought the Model 3 in early 2019, you probably got a $7,500 federal tax credit (and maybe state incentives). This is now much lower (or maybe even gone), FYI
I haven't checked recently if Nissan has run through their credits yet or not.

I'll be interested to see how actual maintenance costs bear out as we get more data.

I also had to look because I was curious, the bill I got today was $0.087/kwh for generation and transmission (ignoring the $18/month "customer charge" since that is flat each month anyway), and gas around here was $2.30/gallon on my drive this morning. So I expect the numbers would be more favorable in my geographic area.
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

Seamster

Bronze Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
139%
May 21, 2019
107
149
The Rust Belt; MI
As someone who owned an electric vehicle, I can definitely say that the gas costs are lower, but the overall cost of the vehicle is the same (or even higher).

That's mostly because the tires on an EV wear down about 5x faster than that of an ICE vehicle - something that no one really talks about, for some reason, even though EV tires are incredibly expensive.

What vehicle did you have? What costs were more? Interesting that your tires wore more. They really shouldn't wear faster; nor should they cost more unless if they're using a rare width or diameter wheel. Strange.

I'm not disagreeing with the math as presented, but the handwaving around "gas cars have more maintenance but electric cars are more expensive to fix" seems pretty significant.

It also discounts that if you bought the Model 3 in early 2019, you probably got a $7,500 federal tax credit (and maybe state incentives). This is now much lower (or maybe even gone), FYI
I haven't checked recently if Nissan has run through their credits yet or not.

I'll be interested to see how actual maintenance costs bear out as we get more data.

I also had to look because I was curious, the bill I got today was $0.087/kwh for generation and transmission (ignoring the $18/month "customer charge" since that is flat each month anyway), and gas around here was $2.30/gallon on my drive this morning. So I expect the numbers would be more favorable in my geographic area.

Why do you say I am "handwaving? " I can't compare costs that I don't know. One is more maintenance, one has more costly parts and repairs. But I don't know these numbers so I'm doing $0.

Nobody is buying a 2019 vehicle so we can't factor that into this comparison. One guy was able to flip his Tesla to make money on it. Another guy I was talking to wanted me to do Lexus vs Tesla at $4 gas and $0.16/kwh at X amount of miles. Another said to compare Model 3 to Camry and not Corolla. I can do anything, but I can't do everything. This is why I do averages.

I just looked at my bill: $0.09/kwh. Gas is $1.89. You see, it varies for everyon. For me this year I'm driving like only 5000 miles due to COVID. I'd be fine driving my 12 MPG truck all year and not touching the car (only appx a $400 difference in gas price). And I recently saw a 2016 car with 230,000 miles (let's say 50k/yr). That guy might consider going electric. He'd save $1458/yr at $2.50 gas & $0.13/kwh.
 
Last edited:

csalvato

Legendary Contributor
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
Read Fastlane!
Summit Attendee
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
297%
May 5, 2014
2,058
6,106
39
Rocky Mountain West
What vehicle did you have? What costs were more? Interesting that your tires wore more. They really shouldn't wear faster; nor should they cost more unless if they're using a rare width or diameter wheel.
Tires wearing faster on EV is very well documented, because the vehicles have drastically higher torque and the vehicles are considerably heavier compared to their ICE counterparts. So much so that Goodyear developed a more expensive, but more robust tire specific for EVs.

Goodyear introduces its next generation of EV tires

I had a Tesla Model X. The cost of electricity was absolute peanuts (something like 2¢ a mile here in Colorado, not counting that I had free supercharging, which compounded the savings).

While all EVs rip through tires more quickly, the Tesla Model X is particularly costly, because the wheels are pitched and asymmetrical, which means they can't be rotated at all, so you can't take any measures to improve tire life.

When we owned the car, we did a calculation on the cost of a 30 MPG vehicle to our Model X. The running costs were almost identical once you factored in how much we spent on tires, even though the cost of "fuel" was drastically lower.
 
Last edited:

Seamster

Bronze Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
139%
May 21, 2019
107
149
The Rust Belt; MI
Tires wearing faster on EV is very well documented, because the vehicles have drastically higher torque and the vehicles are considerably heavier compared to their ICE counterparts. So much so that Goodyear developed a more expensive, but more robust tire specific for EVs.

Goodyear introduces its next generation of EV tires

I had a Tesla Model X. The cost of electricity was absolute peanuts (something like 2¢ a mile here in Colorado, not counting that I had free supercharging, which compounded the savings).

Interesting about the tires. That's something else I could factor in if I had solid data.

Speaking of, if you're driving at 100 kwh battery Model X with 300 mile range, to get $0.02 per mile you'd need to be paying $0.06/kwh. That's some dirt cheap electricity and half the national average! In this scenario you'd get an effective exactly 100 MPG when cost-calculated for $2 gas.
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

csalvato

Legendary Contributor
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
Read Fastlane!
Summit Attendee
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
297%
May 5, 2014
2,058
6,106
39
Rocky Mountain West
Interesting about the tires. That's something else I could factor in if I had solid data.

Speaking of, if you're driving at 100 kwh battery Model X with 300 mile range, to get $0.02 per mile you'd need to be paying $0.06/kwh. That's some dirt cheap electricity and half the national average! In this scenario you'd get an effective exactly 100 MPG when cost-calculated for $2 gas.

Yes, we were paying $0.06/kwh. We also calculated this was effectively 100 MPG.

Also, the current Model X will get about 400 miles on the 100 kwh battery. The 300 mile figure is from about 2016, IIRC.
 

Seamster

Bronze Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
139%
May 21, 2019
107
149
The Rust Belt; MI
Yes, we were paying $0.06/kwh. We also calculated this was effectively 100 MPG.

Also, the current Model X will get about 400 miles on the 100 kwh battery. The 300 mile figure is from about 2016, IIRC.
That's really good. And thank you for actually calculating it yourself instead of just going with "MPGe" like I see pasted in car windows. I've been in a Model X and although I don't like crossover style vehicles, I should plug that in to compare cost-wise vs....a RAV-4? Probably something bigger, like a Traverse, right? And 400 miles is good. About the battery range I have no way to confirm so just have to look at Google, see 5 different options, and average them out. I basially did the "trust" method. This is how people shop though. Look at how they "calculate" gas MPG: see what the dash LCD screen tells them. Sometimes it's accurate sometimes it's wayyy off. Working in manufacturing and advertising I've learned to pretty much trust nothing. Wouldn't we all be happy if the small engine Ford F-150 got its advertised 27 MPG? Such a joke. The guys who own them say they don't get 20!
 

CareCPA

Platinum Contributor
FASTLANE INSIDER
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Summit Attendee
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
356%
May 2, 2017
976
3,479
35
Pennsylvania
Why do you say I am "handwaving? " I can't compare costs that I don't know. One is more maintenance, one has more costly parts and repairs. But I don't know these numbers so I'm doing $0.

Assuming $0 seems wrong, because you're assuming the repairs wash out to be 100% the same across ICE and electric engines. The problem is, we don't have the data for long-term maintenance on electric cars, so this comparison may be several years premature.

I appreciate the data-driven analysis, I just think we're working with incomplete data.

I have no idea if electric or gas is cheaper, but I'm very interested to find out.

It would also be interesting for us to run the analysis based on whether you have your own solar array (again, net of tax credits). You could then compare your (steady) rate of electric cost since you own the panels to the anticipated increase in gas costs (and time value of money).

To clarify, I'm not asking you to do any of these, I just think they would be interesting.
 

Seamster

Bronze Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
139%
May 21, 2019
107
149
The Rust Belt; MI

Assuming $0 seems wrong, because you're assuming the repairs wash out to be 100% the same across ICE and electric engines. The problem is, we don't have the data for long-term maintenance on electric cars, so this comparison may be several years premature.
I'm confused. If we don't know, what is the better solution than putting than putting nothing?

EDIT: Oh, I understand your point. You say this comparison should not be made until we have more data instead of estimating. In my job we estimate daily. And we build cars!
 
Last edited:

Kid

Gold Contributor
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
98%
Mar 1, 2016
1,736
1,707
MPGe is for gallon of gas energy not its price. Not sure if that was mentioned.
But true that cost-wise it's not as effective as advertised.

Now think of how what will gas companies do?
They'll lower the price of gas.
Say to $1.5 per gallon- and we got equivalent of 45 miles per gallon.
45.3461538 miles / US gallon
((3.93 miles) / (0.13 U.S. dollars)) * (1.5 U.S. dollars)) / (1 US gallons)

Or electric companies will increase price of kwh.
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

Kak

Legendary Contributor
FASTLANE INSIDER
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
Read Rat-Race Escape!
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Summit Attendee
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
493%
Jan 23, 2011
9,678
47,666
34
Texas
I used to enjoy calculating out stuff like this. It always made me feel like I was gaming the system.

I am actually considering a plug-in hybrid at the moment. To me they seem like the best of both worlds.

Trips near home on all electric. Lean into it and the gas engine still helps. Go farther than that and it is normal hybrid. Depending on the car, some are more powerful than their gas only counterparts.

Although I have found a couple of Masarati Quattroportes I like...

What half of the brain is what again? :rofl:
 
Last edited:

WabiSabi

Bronze Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
266%
Sep 2, 2019
64
170
Katy, Texas
I'm sure electric will get there, but there are definitely some challenges right now. I'll take tried and true gas any day. Sure gas has it's problems, no technology is perfect, but it's limitations are well documented. I'd rather invest in 10 years after someone else has done the testing, and mass market is feasible.

With any new tech you're just changing old problems for new ones.
 

jon2089

Bronze Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
173%
Feb 11, 2017
81
140
34
US
That's really good. And thank you for actually calculating it yourself instead of just going with "MPGe" like I see pasted in car windows. I've been in a Model X and although I don't like crossover style vehicles, I should plug that in to compare cost-wise vs....a RAV-4? Probably something bigger, like a Traverse, right? And 400 miles is good. About the battery range I have no way to confirm so just have to look at Google, see 5 different options, and average them out. I basially did the "trust" method. This is how people shop though. Look at how they "calculate" gas MPG: see what the dash LCD screen tells them. Sometimes it's accurate sometimes it's wayyy off. Working in manufacturing and advertising I've learned to pretty much trust nothing. Wouldn't we all be happy if the small engine Ford F-150 got its advertised 27 MPG? Such a joke. The guys who own them say they don't get 20!
The Model Y is much closer to the rav4 in size and price.
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

jon2089

Bronze Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
173%
Feb 11, 2017
81
140
34
US
MPGe is for gallon of gas energy not its price. Not sure if that was mentioned.
But true that cost-wise it's not as effective as advertised.

Now think of how what will gas companies do?
They'll lower the price of gas.
Say to $1.5 per gallon- and we got equivalent of 45 miles per gallon.
45.3461538 miles / US gallon
((3.93 miles) / (0.13 U.S. dollars)) * (1.5 U.S. dollars)) / (1 US gallons)

Or electric companies will increase price of kwh.
Depends if the gas companies can profit at such low prices. Fixed cost don't change when demand goes down.
 

jon2089

Bronze Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
173%
Feb 11, 2017
81
140
34
US
Hi, guys. You have probably seen instances where people "spend money to save money." You know, buy that new frypan so you can have restaurant quality burgers and home and that will save you money! Does it really? No. And does buying a Tesla or other "cool" electric car save you money? Well, since it's "cool," you convince yourself that it does. It does not. (If it was all about savings then everyone would be driving an Elio car.) Before going any further, I must say, that if you have money to buy a Tesla and want one, then do what you like with your money. You win and don't need to read any further. Second, if you're an idiot who a) doesn't have a lot of money but b) insist in driving a new BMW, Mercedes, or even Cadillac, then yes, a Tesla will save you money. For everyone else, read on.

I will show you some numbers that are heavily weighted in the direction of the Tesla Model 3 vs buying a Toyota Camry. Gas throughout most areas of IL, OH, TN, KY, AL, MS FL, TX etc. has been $2/gallon. Electricity is $0.13/kilowatt hour. We're going to use $2.50 gas. (If you have $3.50 gas and $0.16 electricity where you live then the numbers might change.) This assumes buying the car new, which again favors the Tesla and the money-waster because we know you can get a 1-2 year old Camry for 25% off of its original price.

First let's convert some electric vehicles to their MPG equivalents (not the "MPGe" BS they put in on the window stickers). We're going to assume warm weather. This again favors the electric vehicle which would have reduced range in cold temperatures. Gas engines will vary but not as much.

View attachment 35902

As you can see the electric vehicles are not as efficient when we transfer them into a dollar-based MPG equivalent. About double the MPG for a similar sized vehicle. Note that I feel the Tesla Model 3 is more comparable to the Honda Civic than the Camry (Camry is about 12" longer) and the Civic new is only $21,000. Yet, as mentioned, this is weighted in favor of the electric car. Below we used 15,000 miles per year, which is a lot, again favoring electric. And we did not factor in cost of a 220v charger, any battery replacement, etc.

View attachment 35903

So, as you can see, even in summer, driving a lot of miles, the Tesla Model 3 is more expensive to operate over 10 years vs the larger Toyota Camry.

Finally, here's a handy chart showing how if you have an older car getting 30 MPG, you shouldn't spend $30,000 for a new 40 MPG hybrid because it's better on gas (but if you have an old 12 MPG pickup truck, you might want to). It will take many, many years to make up those savings.

View attachment 35904

Make your decisions based on need and numbers, not the opinions of others!
Is it fair to compare the base engine Camry to a Tesla? I think any comparison would have to use the 300hp and 267lbs torque v6 that gets ~25mpg engine to make it apples to apples. The standard range plus model 3 is 283hp and 300lbs of torque.
 
Last edited:

Kid

Gold Contributor
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
98%
Mar 1, 2016
1,736
1,707
Depends if the gas companies can profit at such low prices. Fixed cost don't change when demand goes down.
Those companies won't give up just like that.

Some countries barely breath on $43 per oil barrel (like Russia).
But some estimates were made that oil can go to $20 or even $10.
Fixed cost doesn't go down but i guess that Emirates can survive that lower case and still be profitable.
Also there is also huge markup on gasoline - for example Exxon goes on 32% gross profit margin.
Plenty to cut off.
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

JordanK

Gold Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Summit Attendee
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
295%
Feb 17, 2014
558
1,645
26
Ireland
Just some random points to add to this thread to bring a more international perspective.

Gasoline is close to $6 a gallon here in Ireland.
Highly polluting cars have significantly higher road tax. 5L engine and you are looking at £2000+ yearly.
Electric Cars have tax breaks, credits when purchasing and no road tax.
 

ExaltedLife

Silver Contributor
FASTLANE INSIDER
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
206%
Nov 10, 2015
400
822
31
Hi, guys. You have probably seen instances where people "spend money to save money." You know, buy that new frypan so you can have restaurant quality burgers and home and that will save you money! Does it really? No. And does buying a Tesla or other "cool" electric car save you money? Well, since it's "cool," you convince yourself that it does. It does not. (If it was all about savings then everyone would be driving an Elio car.) Before going any further, I must say, that if you have money to buy a Tesla and want one, then do what you like with your money. You win and don't need to read any further. Second, if you're an idiot who a) doesn't have a lot of money but b) insist in driving a new BMW, Mercedes, or even Cadillac, then yes, a Tesla will save you money. For everyone else, read on.

I will show you some numbers that are heavily weighted in the direction of the Tesla Model 3 vs buying a Toyota Camry. Gas throughout most areas of IL, OH, TN, KY, AL, MS FL, TX etc. has been $2/gallon. Electricity is $0.13/kilowatt hour. We're going to use $2.50 gas. (If you have $3.50 gas and $0.16 electricity where you live then the numbers might change.) This assumes buying the car new, which again favors the Tesla and the money-waster because we know you can get a 1-2 year old Camry for 25% off of its original price.

First let's convert some electric vehicles to their MPG equivalents (not the "MPGe" BS they put in on the window stickers). We're going to assume warm weather. This again favors the electric vehicle which would have reduced range in cold temperatures. Gas engines will vary but not as much.

View attachment 35902

As you can see the electric vehicles are not as efficient when we transfer them into a dollar-based MPG equivalent. About double the MPG for a similar sized vehicle. Note that I feel the Tesla Model 3 is more comparable to the Honda Civic than the Camry (Camry is about 12" longer) and the Civic new is only $21,000. Yet, as mentioned, this is weighted in favor of the electric car. Below we used 15,000 miles per year, which is a lot, again favoring electric. And we did not factor in cost of a 220v charger, any battery replacement, etc.

View attachment 35903

So, as you can see, even in summer, driving a lot of miles, the Tesla Model 3 is more expensive to operate over 10 years vs the larger Toyota Camry.

Finally, here's a handy chart showing how if you have an older car getting 30 MPG, you shouldn't spend $30,000 for a new 40 MPG hybrid because it's better on gas (but if you have an old 12 MPG pickup truck, you might want to). It will take many, many years to make up those savings.

View attachment 35904

Make your decisions based on need and numbers, not the opinions of others!

...the higher the mpg is, the better it is, not vice versa. Your own chart shows that the Tesla model S is nearly twice as efficient as the Corolla, getting over 70 mpg to the Corollas 40.

After that I stopped reading lol
 

Kid

Gold Contributor
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
98%
Mar 1, 2016
1,736
1,707
Gasoline is close to $6 a gallon here in Ireland.
Highly polluting cars have significantly higher road tax. 5L engine and you are looking at £2000+ yearly.
Hasn't UK passed the bill to ban all gasoline cars sales after 2030?
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

JordanK

Gold Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Summit Attendee
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
295%
Feb 17, 2014
558
1,645
26
Ireland
I’m in Ireland not the UK but yeah they changed it recently.
 

Seamster

Bronze Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
139%
May 21, 2019
107
149
The Rust Belt; MI
Is it fair to compare the base engine Camry to a Tesla? I think any comparison would have to use the 300hp and 267lbs torque v6 that gets ~25mpg engine to make it apples to apples. The standard range plus model 3 is 283hp and 300lbs of torque.
This is why you can only do averages and not individual comparisons. You want a fast car. Many don't. If that is your main objective, then you will have to plug in different vehicles. Similarly, I could say I want to compare vehicles with the bigger glove box because my cat likes to sleep in there. There are a million different desires and the only way to look at it objectively is to to use assumptions of averages of the desires of most people.

For my own personal situation I don't need advice. But as I mentioned, I see soooo many people spending money on some new car that they think will save them money but ends up losing them money. They let the marketing trick them.

Just some random points to add to this thread to bring a more international perspective.

Gasoline is close to $6 a gallon here in Ireland.
Highly polluting cars have significantly higher road tax. 5L engine and you are looking at £2000+ yearly.
Electric Cars have tax breaks, credits when purchasing and no road tax.
See comment above. This is a perfect reason why you should do your own comparisons instead of listening to someone else. I mentioned above, that for 2020, the cheapest vehicle for me would have been to take insurance and registration off my car and only drive my 12 MPG pickup truck. I NEED the truck's bed, but I don't need the car's 35 MPG since I'm at home most of the time for the extended COVID Holiday. But if you personally based your choices based on my circumstances, you'd be losing money.

...the higher the mpg is, the better it is, not vice versa. Your own chart shows that the Tesla model S is nearly twice as efficient as the Corolla, getting over 70 mpg to the Corollas 40.

After that I stopped reading lol
Twice as efficient yet even after factoring that in, after 10 years of driving and reselling a Model S you would have spent $61,000. A Corolla? $25,000. Maybe you should have kept reading.
 
Last edited:

Alleghenyman

Contributor
Read Fastlane!
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
87%
Nov 18, 2019
31
27
I bought a used Chevy Volt which is admittedly a plug in hybrid but most of my driving was short distances. I did the math before buying it and it was the least expensive vehicle per mile I could identify by a very long shot even factoring in maintenance. I think it was 7.5 cents per mile whereas an economical (I.e. equally tedious to drive) gas engined car was about 12-13 cents per mile.

I sold it after a year because I’m a car guy and life’s too short, but I have no doubt that for someone driving 15,000 miles a year in the same car for 5 years, a $50k Tesla Model 3 is at least as economical to own as a $30k Accord or other average priced sedan, and more fun to drive.
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

MHP368

Gold Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
161%
Aug 17, 2016
794
1,277
37
Sahuarita AZ
You forgot maintenance

Electric cars wipe the floor simply because tour batteries coverd for ten eyars and fewer moving parts and no internal combustion means fewer things break.

Now if you're in the 12 or 15k new car sedan range? Yeh not worth it. But if you we're already shopping for a car in that price range and cost savings was an issue? Well see the link.

Pretty sure a car running off tiny explosions and being driven 17k miles a month would cost a bit more in upkeep.
 

Jon L

Platinum Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
272%
Aug 22, 2015
1,649
4,489
Bellevue, WA
I think these numbers are interesting, but I think you're drawing the wrong conclusions.

A $25k Camry is not in the same market as an $80k Model S. I could do the same thing you did comparing a Camry to a Honda Rebel motorcycle. I guarantee the Rebel would win on efficiency and cost. (I commuted on one for 5 years. It cost $500/year all-in, considering gas, insurance, maintenance and cost of the bike)

To compare the Model S to one of its peers, performance and feature-wise, you'll need to compare it to something with hundreds of horsepower, a much nicer interior, self-driving capability etc.

@csalvato - Ignoring the 'can't rotate the tires' issue, do tires wear more quickly because people take advantage of the extra power? In other words, if people drove Teslas the same as they drive lower-powered gas cars, would tires last as long on Teslas as they do on gas?
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

csalvato

Legendary Contributor
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
Read Fastlane!
Summit Attendee
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
297%
May 5, 2014
2,058
6,106
39
Rocky Mountain West
I think these numbers are interesting, but I think you're drawing the wrong conclusions.

A $25k Camry is not in the same market as an $80k Model S. I could do the same thing you did comparing a Camry to a Honda Rebel motorcycle. I guarantee the Rebel would win on efficiency and cost. (I commuted on one for 5 years. It cost $500/year all-in, considering gas, insurance, maintenance and cost of the bike)

To compare the Model S to one of its peers, performance and feature-wise, you'll need to compare it to something with hundreds of horsepower, a much nicer interior, self-driving capability etc.

@csalvato - Ignoring the 'can't rotate the tires' issue, do tires wear more quickly because people take advantage of the extra power? In other words, if people drove Teslas the same as they drive lower-powered gas cars, would tires last as long on Teslas as they do on gas?
No they wouldn’t. If you drive conservatively the tires still wear 2-3 times faster. If you let it rip and beat everyone off the line, $1400 tires won’t last more than 5-10k miles.

In the Tesla owners communities it’s commonly known that you need to control your acceleration or you’ll rip through tires.

The Tesla owners forum has a lot of threads on this if you’re interested. So does teslarati IIRC
 
Last edited:

jon2089

Bronze Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
173%
Feb 11, 2017
81
140
34
US
This is why you can only do averages and not individual comparisons. You want a fast car. Many don't. If that is your main objective, then you will have to plug in different vehicles. Similarly, I could say I want to compare vehicles with the bigger glove box because my cat likes to sleep in there. There are a million different desires and the only way to look at it objectively is to to use assumptions of averages of the desires of most people.

For my own personal situation I don't need advice. But as I mentioned, I see soooo many people spending money on some new car that they think will save them money but ends up losing them money. They let the marketing trick them.


See comment above. This is a perfect reason why you should do your own comparisons instead of listening to someone else. I mentioned above, that for 2020, the cheapest vehicle for me would have been to take insurance and registration off my car and only drive my 12 MPG pickup truck. I NEED the truck's bed, but I don't need the car's 35 MPG since I'm at home most of the time for the extended COVID Holiday. But if you personally based your choices based on my circumstances, you'd be losing money.


Twice as efficient yet even after factoring that in, after 10 years of driving and reselling a Model S you would have spent $61,000. A Corolla? $25,000. Maybe you should have kept reading.
Still have to make apples to apples when comparing. Compare a 200hp Chevy Bolt EV to a 200hp Toyota Camry to make it fair. An EV will win on total cost of ownership any day of the week when comparing like for like. Unless you happen to live in an area with above average electric rates and simultaneous below average gas prices.
 
Last edited:

Post New Topic

Please SEARCH before posting.
Please select the BEST category.

Post new topic

Guest post submissions offered HERE.

Latest Posts

New Topics

Fastlane Insiders

View the forum AD FREE.
Private, unindexed content
Detailed process/execution threads
Ideas needing execution, more!

Join Fastlane Insiders.

Top