Teaching People to Lose Weight as Fatty BoomBatty

[Black_Dragon43]

how does one go from a sole proprietor to having a team?

Well, the first thing is money. The first month last year when we exploded, I was handling 9 clients by myself in terms of management, while my partner did the copy. Things used to be different then though, because you could do a much bigger volume of outreach on LinkedIn. About 4x bigger than you can today. As a result, getting clients for our clients wasn't a big issue, due to just the volume. Even if they got 40% shitty leads in there they'd get good results. It took around 3 hours per week for me to "handle" my 9 clients.

And yet, this was in the first month $7K/mo of recurring income. Then I think we got another 12 clients the next month, 1 client churned, so now we were doing a lot more. After we were growing for 4-5 months exponentially.

As I said to you, the first component is getting a HUGE INFLUX OF CASH! Can't do anything if you're broke, which is what I desperately try to communicate to people nowadays. Unless you have more money than you know what to do with... you're dead!

I kept handling all the clients myself, I ended up devoting like 1-2 days per week to it.

Then I started looking for a COO, someone with experience in building teams, managing people, and communications, because I suck at that. Basically handed them the reins, showed them how I handle clients, told them to handle the clients themselves and hire whoever they want to handle more clients. Told them I'm hands free, I just don't want clients to be a headache for me. And ideally, I don't want to know what they do, because then it becomes my problem. I just want fewer problems for myself.

Of course over time, LinkedIn changed how it worked. We adapted by developing a tech tool that brings together data from a lot of different lists, not just Sales Navigator. Because while doing the work at 4x lower volume, we noticed, shit, these guys can't get results anymore if 40% of their leads are crap! So we need to get 100% amazing leads, and Sales Navigator gives you good leads on like pages 1-5 for a search, and crappy ones after, completely different from what you're looking for. So we had our tool.

We then implemented quality scoring in it. Basically, different factors could be assigned different coefficients. For example location = London means a coefficient of 2, and location = UK outside London, equals coefficient 1. Then you calculate across all factors those coefficients and calculate a quality score for the lead. Now we got amazing lists built. But crap still filtered through. So we needed human verification.

(and btw to those people saying ChatGPT can't teach you – ChatGPT came up with the idea of quality scoring in the first place LOL!)

Then we started hiring people for that. They did crap at first, and our team had to fix most of their stuff. Then I got involved in hiring by sharing this Gary Halbert ad to our team: https://www.thegaryhalbertletter.co...bert_Personal_Ad/Gary_Halbert_Personal_Ad.pdf

Then I created a workflow diagram teaching them exactly how to verify a lead, like a BABY – literarily like a baby with a retarded brain (this is what I often get annoyed at managing people in our team, because I always tell them you need to explain like for a retard – otherwise people will blame you for giving wrong instructions, and you can't fire them)

Then I told them that our hiring letter needs to stop being nice, and it needs to start sounding like me when I'm pissed off, instead of like a company you want to work for. Tell them I'll fire them and kick their a$$ if they don't follow the exact process laid out, bla bla. (of course, they removed the swearing & threats, but kept the aggressive tone)

Then we suddenly started getting good people who followed directions and who we enjoyed working with, and who delivered good results. By being ruthless and cutting their heads off if they didn't perform, assuming, of course, that we had procedures in place. If they followed the procedure and got the wrong answer, that was our fault, so we changed the procedure.

I can go on, but all this knowledge @rpeck90 is most likely 95% useless and masturbatory to you, because you're not running my business. My biggest challenge is because I feel my team is too soft and nice, whereas I'm hardcore and I try to get them to be less professional, because professional = SLOW (snail). Professional is only good in front of clients, never for getting things done fast.

Now that's for "technical" staff. Of course, once you find good "technical" people, you are super nice with them. But not while hiring them!

For creative staff, you need to satisfy their whims and adapt to them. Don't try to change them, because then they leave. Don't try to get out of them what they can't give you. Let them create their own process, and hold them accountable.

So... ideally you hire people who can build systems, rather than build systems yourself. Of course you can dream something up, map a workflow for it, write some onboarding documents. But the best people, the ones who will help you expand, you need to follow their advice, otherwise their ego gets hurt, and they leave you.

Smart talent respects themselves. You can call me "piece of shit, retard, etc" I wouldn't mind – and that's why I'm the boss, because I'm willing to go into shit to make money if I have to and fix problems others won't touch. Now even my partner is busy traveling the world and doesn't care about the biz, but guess what, I need to accommodate him, because otherwise he leaves, and that's not good. So as the boss, you become sort of a prisoner of the people you have around you, to one extent or another. I'm sure even Putin can't do only what he pleases, or else they'd quickly get rid of him. To a certain extent or another, as the boss you are "forced" to empower your creative staff to live the lives that they want to live, otherwise... they leave!

If I had to pick one key advantage about me, it's to look at things exactly as they are, instead of frame them in these politically correct ways which cloud your judgement and plug you into the matrix. I understand, the matrix is useful. You can't have a society of people like me, that would be a disaster. So socially, people like me need to be "contained". But... if you want results, then you can't be held prisoner by an artificial matrix whose purpose is opposed to your own.

And then another virtue is to get out of people's way. But yeah, assuming you are (1) cunning (I wrote smart initially, but that's the wrong word), (2) ruthless, take no prisoners, (3) what you do satisfies a pressing, real NEED and (4) you have gained access to a lot of MONEY (by hook or by crook), it's not hard to be successful (I suppose the MONEY, can be exchanged for ENTRY. It's a barrier to entry that you have money and the other guy is broke, isn't it?).

Seriously, look at Iman Ghadzi. Do you think the guy is smart? Nah. Just cunning, ruthless, satisfies a need, AND very importantly had access to money so he could build out and push out amazing marketing.

(And never forget, as Spenny said, I speak freely because I don't care about my legacy – which is true. Almost everyone else wants you to think they're good people rather than say the truth. That's why most people remain stuck in the matrix – the mechanisms are there to enable you to self-delude.)

What are the necessary steps required to make that transition and at what point do you become a system builder, rather than just a cog?

I have not made this transition completely, I still perform a LOT of work in sales & marketing for the business, but not much else (apart from group coaching + chat-based coaching when I'm absolutely needed). The business doesn't have the margin required for me to outsource sales & marketing completely. It's still a matter of MONEY (we keep going back to that, don't we?)

All the roadblocks you can imagine come down to one thing: money.

All the solutions you can imagine come down to one thing: creative ways to get more money or do more with less money.

 

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[ugudango]

On that basis, could you not argue that what Tudor is really suggesting is that there are instances where developing a system is more valuable than being part of the system yourself? In fact, I am sure it's something @Kak has advocated a lot for in the past. I doubt the CEO of Starbucks, for example, is an excellent barista, and yet the business he /she runs employs 1,000's. Steve Jobs, famously, couldn't code.

All due respect but those guys are CEOs and are playing a whole different game and have no direct interaction with the employees

Of course the CEO of a construction company doesn't have to know how to lay bricks, but guess what, he employed people that know. He doesn't have to be good at brick laying to build houses.

If we had bricklayer and architect gurus who never held a tool in their hand, we'd all be royally F*cked.

 

[Antifragile]

A train wreck thread without me?

Just kidding.

I didn't even read the whole thread but saw a few posts by @MJ DeMarco saying how he's not spending enough time actually helping or posting on the INSIDERS and is basically managing the problem children here.

Amen to that.

But I'll got a step further. I have issues with the forum in the current state because of my current state. Meaning that if I am looking for answers to my business problems, I am not coming here and posting them. Why not? Because I no longer expect the right kind of help.

Yet here I am, why am I here? Is this now my new "social media dopamine addiction?"

No, I'd like to think I am better than that. So here's why I am here:

1. You get out what you put in. Over the years I became a better writer and I'll continue to improve as I write here. Typically when I start a thread it takes about 10 revisions before it's posted. It makes me better. And it's relevant outside of the forum when I need to write a proposal, report, email... you get out what you put in.
2. There are threads and people who genuinely need and seek help that I can give. My experiences are limited but even then I've made enough mistakes over the past two decades to be able to share what not to do. Helping others is rewarding in and of itself. But also it sharpens your tools as an entrepreneur!
3. I've met and became friends with some top notch people (unfortunately the list is extremely short but that's the 99% vs 1% situation as in the real world playing out here too). That alone translated to me being able to up my business game too.

Should this forum become a fully paid private club? I am not sure. But I am already paying ... big part of me wishes that the INSIDERS was more valuable. Maybe without babysitting it frees us the time, like 80/20 principle for @MJ DeMarco - right now spending 80% of time babysitting, let's flip it.

 

[Aidan04]

A train wreck thread without me?

Just kidding.

I didn't even read the whole thread but saw a few posts by @MJ DeMarco saying how he's not spending enough time actually helping or posting on the INSIDERS and is basically managing the problem children here.

Amen to that.

But I'll got a step further. I have issues with the forum in the current state because of my current state. Meaning that if I am looking for answers to my business problems, I am not coming here and posting them. Why not? Because I no longer expect the right kind of help.

Yet here I am, why am I here? Is this now my new "social media dopamine addiction?"

No, I'd like to think I am better than that. So here's why I am here:

1. You get out what you put in. Over the years I became a better writer and I'll continue to improve as I write here. Typically when I start a thread it takes about 10 revisions before it's posted. It makes me better. And it's relevant outside of the forum when I need to write a proposal, report, email... you get out what you put in.
2. There are threads and people who genuinely need and seek help that I can give. My experiences are limited but even then I've made enough mistakes over the past two decades to be able to share what not to do. Helping others is rewarding in and of itself. But also it sharpens your tools as an entrepreneur!
3. I've met and became friends with some top notch people (unfortunately the list is extremely short but that's the 99% vs 1% situation as in the real world playing out here too). That alone translated to me being able to up my business game too.

Should this forum become a fully paid private club? I am not sure. But I am already paying ... big part of me wishes that the INSIDERS was more valuable. Maybe without babysitting it frees us the time, like 80/20 principle for @MJ DeMarco - right now spending 80% of time babysitting, let's flip it.

Here's an idea for @MJ DeMarco that I think could work. Not sure if the forum's software allows this but it may be beneficial.

Maybe if you're in the Speedway, the main page of the forum should only display Speedway posts, and whenever you post, it automatically goes to the Speedway.

New users get the unfiltered forum.

I feel like nobody attaches the Speedway tag to their posts, and it's a great feature that we're not utilizing.

This new system would probably need some logistic thinking though, like how does one become part of the Speedway if Speedway users can't see unfiltered posts?

May be something to consider though. You break into the top tier section by earning it, not paying for it.

 

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[amp0193]

The advice he gave was the complete opposite of what I hear fake gurus teach day in and day out, still to this day

The best Amazon guru I followed back in the day likewise said the exact opposite of everything every other guru was saying.

But no one knew about him, because he sucked at marketing himself as a guru and had no clue what he was doing.

He was too busy crushing Amazon.


Me and some Fastlaners had some good laughs back in the day when we would discover the Amazon seller accounts of some of the biggest gurus... they were hot garbage and selling things like garlic presses and workout bands (and doing it poorly).

 

[G-Man]

Fake gurudom is an interesting topic because the internet simultaneously has infinite memory and none at all. This guy, for example, highly possible is fake. People calling him out all the the time because, based on his photos there's no way he's under 3 bills (still good for him, he started over 400), and there have been countless others in the past get outed, and then just keep on keeping on.

I think I'd have a cardiac arrest from the constant fear of being found out, all other ethics aside, but the point is, if you have a tenuous grasp on reality, or no conscience, it's clearly not impossible.

 

[ZackerySprague]

*Comes to the forum, see's MJs post about turning it into a Paid forum*

Lovely... back to reality.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

@rpeck90 – 4 years ago or so, I read a book called Built to Sell. I never recommend it if I'm asked, and it doesn't stand out in my mind, it's never been on any of my lists of recommended books on Discord or here, but looking back my thinking has been deeply influenced by that in terms of what opportunities I go for.

If there's no recurring business, I skip it.
If it can't be productized, I skip it.

In other words, trying to sell the same thing over and over, rather than trying to sell something different every time. I think that's key. What allowed me to make a ton of money fast is because my profit margin was literarily 90%+ at first, AND I could handle a ton of clients at that profit margin.

I also skip low value items.

If something sells for $50 or $100 or even $400, I skip it. It's so painful to sell anything. Sometimes it's painful to even sell things for FREE. So I'd always zero-in on things I can sell for $700-$1500/mo, productized, repeatable.

Of course, once you're like me, that doesn't matter so much, because you have others doing fulfilment, but you're asking how do I EXPLODE so that I can build a team.

These are key considerations. Without taking this into account, you'll drive yourself crazy.

Think about me.

9 clients = $7K/mo, 90% profit margin = $6.3K/mo

With that alone you can hire a big hitter.

Now imagine those 9 clients were $4K/mo. I would've starved! 0 chance of scaling.

Or imagine those 9 clients took me 2 days per week to handle instead of 3 hours.

Disaster!

That's why I don't understand how these SaaS people find the patience to do it. Like... F*ck me, 100 users, and you're just making $10K/mo ? That's literarily unthinkable for me.

Every client is someone whom you have to CONVINCE to modify their behavior.

Sometimes, to modify their behavior permanently.

That's what adopting your product means.

To be able to convince thousands of people at once (or fast) to modify their behavior permanently (which is what you need as a SaaS), you need tremendous marketing budget.

I don't even get into that. It's TOO HARD. I'm almost crying by thinking about it.
Of course, give me $3M, and I'm happy to get into it

Most people shoot themselves in the leg because they chase wrong opportunities. They listen to "don't be a money-chaser" and interpret that as meaning "so long as it adds value, do it". But that's wrong. Lots of things add value, in uneconomical, unscalable ways. And you shouldn't do them. That's what the S + T from CENTS means.

I nailed N + S + T in the beginning. Now I'm nailing E too. We'll see about C – maybe I transform the entire business at some point as I get more advanced. Maybe I turn into that dreaded SaaS. Or maybe I turn into full-time coaching. Who knows?

My dream was always to coach – it's the easiest way to make money, but hard as F*ck to sell. Which is why I shifted away from coaching and making 100K/yr which is where I was before switching to an agency model. Easier to scale. People are lazy – if they hear DFY, they buy, if they hear "you need to do shit" they run away.

But... rest assured, if I could sell a group coaching package for $500/mo and do it at scale (1000+ buyers/year), I'd do that any day of the week. The problem is simply that I can't get the volume of buyers I'd need. I've thought about it, you know what to do to mitigate it – lock people into 12-month contracts, and so on. That's actually a great idea. Ugurus, that's what they do with their coaching/training program. Lock them in 12-month contracts, $xxx/mo, can't get out.

That's smart. And imo it's why Cloudways bought them out.

For example, when you lock them into a 12-month program, and you make say $750/mo sale, that is really a $9K sale. Now you can afford to pay a closer $2K per sale. Easy peasy, built-in margin for your team and everyone, so you attract the big hitters.

And you need to lock them – because once they see how hard it is, that they actually need to do work, they ALL want to get out of it, guaranteed! (warning for Bizydad – this is a hyperbole. Please don't quote me out of context and claim OMG Black Dragon is contradicting himself and speaking in absolutes). People like what's new and shiny, but they hate work. (again Bizy... it's a hyperbole, an exaggeration to enable you to better understand psychological principles that are at play by taking them to extremes...)

Ah another thing....

Pick something where it's worth your time selling via cold email, cold calling, cold DMs. Because that's the only way to sell at first. If it's like $1K sale... not worth your time. Minimum $3K.

Or else, do business locally and move to a big city like London PERMANENTLY. Those so-called big hitters on fastlane with digital businesses they're all like "oh, so I went to meet the gym owner in person..."

Dude... if I could meet the gym owner in person, I'd have closed him before you. It's so much harder to do business when you're not in-person. People seem to just trust you more, for NO REASON at all.

To this day, I still consider it cheating, because I can't do it, so it infuriates me. For those guys hitting $100K/mo by signing up local businesses – 0 respect for you. (another exaggeration Bizy... read it as "diminished respect")

Actually, I still remember watching a Fox sales call demonstration of closing a referral. In my mind, I was like dude... closing a referral takes 0 skill. All you have to do is give them the price and ask for their credit card. I remember to this day at another company, when I was helping the guys sell, and a referral came through. We were starting to go through our presentation, and asking the guy questions, and bla bla bla. And we're barely 2 minutes into asking him questions and he's like "look guys, I don't care about this, I want to buy, I have my credit card here, let's do it and figure out the rest after OK?" Done.

And while that's an extreme case (once again Bizy... you know how it goes with hyperboles), the truth is when you sell a "referral" the entire sale is basically a joke. It's this weird dance you do for social reasons more than anything, because the conclusion is really well-known from the start. They're buying your stuff. It's sort of like when your female friend introduces you to this girl... you don't need to be good with women, you KNOW you two are dating (of course, all assuming you're not socially awkward or anything).

Literarily every referral I got last year bought from us. Every single one.

What I really love to see sales wise... is how you close a dude on the other side of the world, with 0 case studies, no website, for $3K, that you connected with via a cold email, cold call or cold DM. Now THAT'S what real sales is about. (and, that's also why a lot of sales coaches fake their sales calls. They pretend they're calling this stranger, when it's actually their buddy who plays along with them).

Imo, this skill of closing strangers is the other big thing you need to master. Most sales books and training are useless. They are for teaching people who sell for big companies. If I sell for Microsoft, making the sale is F*cking easy. "Hey, I'm John Smartass with Microsoft. Are you guys taking advantage of XYZ? We've seen it reduce procurement costs by 175% for Cisco". Done.

And you see, that's the problem. A pirate needs to learn how to be a pirate by himself or from other pirates. Because the "official" stuff is never built for newbies and brokies.

Like think about me – I never need to know how to cold call a stranger on the other side of the world, with 0 case studies, no website ever again. In my entire life. So why would I write about it? Or why would I teach people about it?

Once you're past that stage, you're past it. I'm sure in 5 years I won't even remember how to do it. Do you think Jeff Bezos remembers how to cold call a stranger? If he ever knew it, he certainly forgot it by now.

(And incidentally, this is how coaches & trainers take advantage of brokies – they sell you shit that they KNOW doesn't work for you, but they use their experience to justify why you should buy from them. IN OTHER WORDS YOU'RE A F*ckING RETARD, exactly as I was saying all along in this thread and getting a beating for it. "Oh, I sold $1BN at Microsoft, hire me and I'll teach you how to become a closing machine" *dumb smile*)

So to summarize... go after the right opportunities (recurring + productized + easy to fulfil) + make sure it makes economical sense (insane margin when doing it by yourself) + make sure you can sell via cold something + learn how to close strangers (or, bring in a partner who can do that).

That's the formula. Now go crush it!

And hire Fatty "Sales" BoomBatty – still better than that sales guy who closed $1BN for Microsoft.

 

[rpeck90]

Thank you for sharing the insights, Tudor!

Have been busy hence the belated response. Will edit this post with more questions/discussion in a few minutes for you.

--

To paraphrase what you've written, you're suggesting you focus on high ticket offers which have the potentiality for recurring revenue (EG a service you can charge $3k a month for and expect the client to be with you for 18+ months).

If so, might I ask how you would consider approaching the creation of an offer in this way?

I get the sense that you're suggesting it's more "mindset" related than physical; IE you and I could start the same business but you'd focus on doing things as you've described, yielding results conducive to it vs. the more generic advice that's bandied around such as "just start" etc.

In that is the case, it makes sense to me as I've long considered selling $15 dog bowls on Amazon an inappropriate business from the perspective of scale. Not that it's problematic in of itself, but a lot of people seem to think that if you're able to get 1,000 sales for X, everything will be fine and you'll have a nice Fastlane business that you can sell or use to fund your lifestyle.

My view is that the above would lack depth and needs a higher ticket component on the backend to make it work. One of the reasons I was focused on the branding side of things was for this reason; it creates depth in the business which can be used to create elevated offers at higher prices.

If what I've written above is accurate , I surmise that one of the things you've done differently (and people may wish to look further into) is how you've approached elevating the price of your offer as to support the ability to grow the team you now have under you. In other words, businesses stay small because they are unable to increase their margins as the products they're selling are either too low value, or are not bought frequently enough.

I guess your focus on having a) a high ticket offer + b) a recurring component give you the cash to justify hiring people to perform different activities within the business. If that's true, how would you go about creating a high ticket / high value offer and making it work from a business perspective? What did you do to get it going? Is it limited to the market you are serving now, or (which is what I'm really trying to get at) is it an ideal which others can apply to other industries? I suspect this lay at the heart of why your agency work took off.

-

That's why I don't understand how these SaaS people find the patience to do it. Like... F*ck me, 100 users, and you're just making $10K/mo ? That's literarily unthinkable for me.

SaaS is different to what you're talking about; the value of SaaS lies in its potentiality -- the notion that you could sign up 100,000's of users using similar setup that you are doing with 100 (obviously, you would require more stuff but the processes remain the same). This is why SaaS companies can sell for 20x multiples in some cases.

-

One thing that I am intrigued about is how/where you identify the high ticket side of things.

You've mentioned chasing the money, but what if you don't want to do that? What if you actually want to build a SaaS and take the time to do it properly? Would there be anything you would suggest that you could incorporate into a business that could leverage the approach you've been successful with?

 

[Kevin88660]

@rpeck90 – 4 years ago or so, I read a book called Built to Sell. I never recommend it if I'm asked, and it doesn't stand out in my mind, it's never been on any of my lists of recommended books on Discord or here, but looking back my thinking has been deeply influenced by that in terms of what opportunities I go for.

If there's no recurring business, I skip it.
If it can't be productized, I skip it.

In other words, trying to sell the same thing over and over, rather than trying to sell something different every time. I think that's key. What allowed me to make a ton of money fast is because my profit margin was literarily 90%+ at first, AND I could handle a ton of clients at that profit margin.

I also skip low value items.

If something sells for $50 or $100 or even $400, I skip it. It's so painful to sell anything. Sometimes it's painful to even sell things for FREE. So I'd always zero-in on things I can sell for $700-$1500/mo, productized, repeatable.

Of course, once you're like me, that doesn't matter so much, because you have others doing fulfilment, but you're asking how do I EXPLODE so that I can build a team.

These are key considerations. Without taking this into account, you'll drive yourself crazy.

Think about me.

9 clients = $7K/mo, 90% profit margin = $6.3K/mo

With that alone you can hire a big hitter.

Now imagine those 9 clients were $4K/mo. I would've starved! 0 chance of scaling.

Or imagine those 9 clients took me 2 days per week to handle instead of 3 hours.

Disaster!

That's why I don't understand how these SaaS people find the patience to do it. Like... F*ck me, 100 users, and you're just making $10K/mo ? That's literarily unthinkable for me.

Every client is someone whom you have to CONVINCE to modify their behavior.

Sometimes, to modify their behavior permanently.

That's what adopting your product means.

To be able to convince thousands of people at once (or fast) to modify their behavior permanently (which is what you need as a SaaS), you need tremendous marketing budget.

I don't even get into that. It's TOO HARD. I'm almost crying by thinking about it.
Of course, give me $3M, and I'm happy to get into it

Most people shoot themselves in the leg because they chase wrong opportunities. They listen to "don't be a money-chaser" and interpret that as meaning "so long as it adds value, do it". But that's wrong. Lots of things add value, in uneconomical, unscalable ways. And you shouldn't do them. That's what the S + T from CENTS means.

I nailed N + S + T in the beginning. Now I'm nailing E too. We'll see about C – maybe I transform the entire business at some point as I get more advanced. Maybe I turn into that dreaded SaaS. Or maybe I turn into full-time coaching. Who knows?

My dream was always to coach – it's the easiest way to make money, but hard as F*ck to sell. Which is why I shifted away from coaching and making 100K/yr which is where I was before switching to an agency model. Easier to scale. People are lazy – if they hear DFY, they buy, if they hear "you need to do shit" they run away.

But... rest assured, if I could sell a group coaching package for $500/mo and do it at scale (1000+ buyers/year), I'd do that any day of the week. The problem is simply that I can't get the volume of buyers I'd need. I've thought about it, you know what to do to mitigate it – lock people into 12-month contracts, and so on. That's actually a great idea. Ugurus, that's what they do with their coaching/training program. Lock them in 12-month contracts, $xxx/mo, can't get out.

That's smart. And imo it's why Cloudways bought them out.

For example, when you lock them into a 12-month program, and you make say $750/mo sale, that is really a $9K sale. Now you can afford to pay a closer $2K per sale. Easy peasy, built-in margin for your team and everyone, so you attract the big hitters.

And you need to lock them – because once they see how hard it is, that they actually need to do work, they ALL want to get out of it, guaranteed! (warning for Bizydad – this is a hyperbole. Please don't quote me out of context and claim OMG Black Dragon is contradicting himself and speaking in absolutes). People like what's new and shiny, but they hate work. (again Bizy... it's a hyperbole, an exaggeration to enable you to better understand psychological principles that are at play by taking them to extremes...)

Ah another thing....

Pick something where it's worth your time selling via cold email, cold calling, cold DMs. Because that's the only way to sell at first. If it's like $1K sale... not worth your time. Minimum $3K.

Or else, do business locally and move to a big city like London PERMANENTLY. Those so-called big hitters on fastlane with digital businesses they're all like "oh, so I went to meet the gym owner in person..."

Dude... if I could meet the gym owner in person, I'd have closed him before you. It's so much harder to do business when you're not in-person. People seem to just trust you more, for NO REASON at all.

To this day, I still consider it cheating, because I can't do it, so it infuriates me. For those guys hitting $100K/mo by signing up local businesses – 0 respect for you. (another exaggeration Bizy... read it as "diminished respect")

Actually, I still remember watching a Fox sales call demonstration of closing a referral. In my mind, I was like dude... closing a referral takes 0 skill. All you have to do is give them the price and ask for their credit card. I remember to this day at another company, when I was helping the guys sell, and a referral came through. We were starting to go through our presentation, and asking the guy questions, and bla bla bla. And we're barely 2 minutes into asking him questions and he's like "look guys, I don't care about this, I want to buy, I have my credit card here, let's do it and figure out the rest after OK?" Done.

And while that's an extreme case (once again Bizy... you know how it goes with hyperboles), the truth is when you sell a "referral" the entire sale is basically a joke. It's this weird dance you do for social reasons more than anything, because the conclusion is really well-known from the start. They're buying your stuff. It's sort of like when your female friend introduces you to this girl... you don't need to be good with women, you KNOW you two are dating (of course, all assuming you're not socially awkward or anything).

Literarily every referral I got last year bought from us. Every single one.

What I really love to see sales wise... is how you close a dude on the other side of the world, with 0 case studies, no website, for $3K, that you connected with via a cold email, cold call or cold DM. Now THAT'S what real sales is about. (and, that's also why a lot of sales coaches fake their sales calls. They pretend they're calling this stranger, when it's actually their buddy who plays along with them).

Imo, this skill of closing strangers is the other big thing you need to master. Most sales books and training are useless. They are for teaching people who sell for big companies. If I sell for Microsoft, making the sale is F*cking easy. "Hey, I'm John Smartass with Microsoft. Are you guys taking advantage of XYZ? We've seen it reduce procurement costs by 175% for Cisco". Done.

And you see, that's the problem. A pirate needs to learn how to be a pirate by himself or from other pirates. Because the "official" stuff is never built for newbies and brokies.

Like think about me – I never need to know how to cold call a stranger on the other side of the world, with 0 case studies, no website ever again. In my entire life. So why would I write about it? Or why would I teach people about it?

Once you're past that stage, you're past it. I'm sure in 5 years I won't even remember how to do it. Do you think Jeff Bezos remembers how to cold call a stranger? If he ever knew it, he certainly forgot it by now.

(And incidentally, this is how coaches & trainers take advantage of brokies – they sell you shit that they KNOW doesn't work for you, but they use their experience to justify why you should buy from them. IN OTHER WORDS YOU'RE A F*ckING RETARD, exactly as I was saying all along in this thread and getting a beating for it. "Oh, I sold $1BN at Microsoft, hire me and I'll teach you how to become a closing machine" *dumb smile*)

So to summarize... go after the right opportunities (recurring + productized + easy to fulfil) + make sure it makes economical sense (insane margin when doing it by yourself) + make sure you can sell via cold something + learn how to close strangers (or, bring in a partner who can do that).

That's the formula. Now go crush it!

And hire Fatty "Sales" BoomBatty – still better than that sales guy who closed $1BN for Microsoft.

It’s not difficult to close strangers if you angle in with a low commitment offer or high need products and deal with large number of leads.

-Accredited trainers teaching office excel skills that users can tap 100 percent into a prepaid credit sponsored by government
-Productivity upgrade equipment sales that qualify for gov sponsored credit for small business
-Sell car insurance (mandatory by law to buy if you drive). Many other business insurance fall into this category
-Mortgage refinancing. If your provider is cheaper than most in the market.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

To paraphrase what you've written, you're suggesting you focus on high ticket offers which have the potentiality for recurring revenue (EG a service you can charge $3k a month for and expect the client to be with you for 18+ months).

No, I wouldn’t sell high ticket. That’s hard to sell. That’s what held me back from scaling coaching / consulting which I was selling for $8K-$12K

Atm 70% of our clients are on our $987/mo service (this is up from around 60% 3 months ago). There is a minimum 3-month committment for it now. So effectively it is at least $3K. But it doesn’t FEEL like $3K, because the client thinks “well, if these guys are scammers, I just won’t pay 2nd and 3rd month” (even though legally that becomes an impossibility because we are professionals and fulfil all our contractual obligations, cross every T)

And here “scammers” doesn’t mean they don’t get the final result in month 1, it simply means it’s obviously a low effort service, people answer super slow, there’s a general lack of interest in how you’re doing and so on. Like a fly by night operator essentially. It covers that fear — they know you’re not just going to take the money and not do absolutely anything. Which is a big fear usually.

So have your 3-month value at minimum $3K.

Now when I first started out… it was $750/mo. And no minimum contract (to speed up selling) and counteract lack of (sufficient) testimonials.

That doesn’t mean that you don’t project for a 3-month value. And even engineer for it. Remember people are lazy. How can you engineer the process to apply a laziness tax while maximising your chances of keeping them paying? You don’t want to lose the lazy after just one month right? Just like in chess, you need to think 7-8 moves ahead. If you’re not going to set a minimum contract period legally, how will you do it psychologically? And human psychology has plenty of weaknesses that someone who is determined to get something can leverage against those with much weaker determination — which allows you to legally achieve your aims at this stage of the journey.

So it all depends what the priority is. In the beginning, cash is the priority.

At my current stage cash isn’t the priority anymore. Now delivering a great customer experience, having them get results ASAP, being onboarded fast so they don’t slow us down, long term retention (rather than just short term), now these are the priorities.

Now if I was a goodie tissue fake a$$ guru, what I’d tell you is a different story. I’d say, you see Rich, when you’re young and dumb you start with a certain process. Then you notice clients don’t really follow it, so you change it. And your offer gets better, results get better, clients are happier.
That’s how you build a startup, by iterating to improve your process and following customer feedback

See — it’s the same story. Told from two different perspectives. The one you see in the books is the second one. They only tell you about improving the service so users love it and it gets better results. In other words, the winner hides the real truth of how the win was achieved. They NEVER tell you about how to think strategically and make money. NEVER. You won’t find a single book which teaches or even mentions this stuff.

Suppose we each get 15 people to pay each of us $1K/mo without a minimum contractual period. 20% are lazy (3 people). Now I’m a goodie tissue, and I treat the lazy and the non-lazy alike. I don’t exploit the psychological weakness of the lazy. I don’t structure the payment structure accordingly, I don’t plan for them getting cold feet and wanting out of the deal. And therefore, what ends up happening is I lose 3 people the first month (or I only get $3K from them). You on the other hand are a smart operator. You know some are lazy. Therefore you set up a payment structure where they pay a dumb tax for their laziness. And you know they’re less likely to quit once they have invested something because they feel like they’re throwing money away. Now instead of 1 month, the lazies stay for 5 months with you. Suddenly while I gained $3K extra from the same number of sales, you gained $15K extra. Who will develop faster? Who will have better people? Who will have better growth?

Same reason why you have an automated subscription. It’s not because it’s easier — it’s because clients are lazy, and they will pay for their laziness, instead of having you pay for it.

The only difference between the two stories is that the strategic operator achieves the result due to his intelligence, while the goodie tissue, if he achieves the result at all, does it by LUCK.

Now are you starting to see what it means to build an offer that gets you to your goals? Your goals change as you get more money and the organisation evolves… therefore, the product and the offer will also change.

First you need cash. EVERYTHING needs to be engineered for the accumulation of cash. Legally, of course. I’m not suggesting you do anything illegal. But legally, using all the tools at your disposal, including human weakness.

Once you have cash, then you begin engineering for other goals.

It’s like an army. An army at war uses any and all resources at its disposal to achieve its objective. Most people ruin themselves because instead of doing what is required to achieve the objective, they follow an ideology. “Oh no, this isn’t the right way to build a startup, I need to prioritize customer experience first, not money. I want those glowing testimonials, oh Rich it gets me so high!” *facepalm*

And they fail. Inevitably.

My view is that the above would lack depth and needs a higher ticket component on the backend to make it work. One of the reasons I was focused on the branding side of things was for this reason; it creates depth in the business which can be used to create elevated offers at higher prices.

I agree — depth comes later. First figure out how you get people to pay you money. Depth is what builds a moat — it’s the ENTRY factor. Notice how at first I didn’t care about entry. I needed money. It’s not even that I needed it — my business and my organisation needed it.

Then, to shut off the competition and defend the position you’ve taken over, now you bring the depth.

What if you actually want to build a SaaS and take the time to do it properly? Would there be anything you would suggest that you could incorporate into a business that could leverage the approach you've been successful with?

It’s not about time, it’s getting users to keep paying or keep using. I don’t think you can “do it properly” without users. “Doing it properly” requires USERS — many of them. So you learn exactly what’s holding them back, why some people get results and some don’t.

As a new coach, do you think you know what gets results?! Nah, it’s only these fake gurus in a fake culture who pretend to be goodie tissues that tell you they know — so they get you to trust them, hand over your money, and then God help you, maybe you get results, or maybe you don’t. They are the real scammers if you ask me. The truth is nobody knows without extensive experience testing — and extensive experience testing requires many failures and a lot of sacrifices. The goodie tissues won’t ever admit this, because it’s their hidden advantage over you.

You only figure that out by running experiments on people — in this case your clients. So paid or not, you still need users. Even FREE costs you time. You have any idea how hard it is to get me to try a FREE software tool?! It’s mission impossible almost. The fact it’s free doesn’t change anything. Changing my behavior, that’s the hard part. Whether I pay to get my behavior changed or I don’t is secondary.

In fact, you’re better off getting me to pay, than free. If I pay, I feel I’ve wasted my money if I don’t use the goddamn thing. If you give it to me free — nothing lost if I don’t use it.

The only situation where this is different, is if I’m using tool X (say MailCheat(Chimp)) and you’ve built RichChimp, and you tell me “Look — RichChimp does exactly what MailCheat(Chimp) does. Identical copy. We’re going to be adding new features though and building it, but I’m going to let you in for a 1-time, lifetime fee of $200” I’d hand you the money instantly. Because rather than paying $10K+ for a lifetime on MailCheat(Chimp), I’d rather pay you once and switch.

I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the MailCheat(Chimp) competitors grew like this, by going after the big influencers. Gave them all the advantages in the world for free, in exchange they had to promote the shit out of it.

 

[Spenny]

I'm sorry it's taken me a while to respond. I wanted to avoid lashing back and throwing ad hominems everywhere, so I took a few days away from reading again. My initial response would not be productive for me or you.

Also, I wouldn't say I like the written format because once I re-read what I've said, there is no tonality, and it looks like I'm outright attacking you, even though that's not my intention. Like you, I like to provoke talk—discuss rather than argue. That goes the same for this post here, too.

Don't be naive. If it's in anyone's self-interest to do business with me, they will do business with me. Me being a nice guy has nothing to do with it.

I agree; clients will still do business with you regardless of whether you're nice. I wouldn't say you have to be excellent in business.

But I was meant to be referring to the forum. Do you come to the forum to do business? Maybe. But I'm sure you come along because you enjoy engaging with a niche community of entrepreneurs - you wouldn't have gifted me an INSIDERS if you genuinely didn't like the forum [thanks again, by the way ].

I wonder if you're fighting with the wrong people. This is not the first thread I've seen people outright criticise you, not because of what you say, but you directly. These people aren't typical brain-dead haters you see online; they are well-calibrated individuals. How many opportunities are pushed away from a type of attitude? Just a thought: it doesn't need to stay this way, but if you want it to, that's fine, I guess.

It’s meant to inspire debate — debate is critical to an active community and also to the development of storehouses of knowledge in it. A newbie wanting to get started in coaching will now be able to find pro and con opinions with 1-click and make a decision for himself.

And were it not for this thread, we would never have addressed the issue of low quality posts in an open forum.

So I think it has done its role, and added far more value to the community and its development than “hey! I just made $500k, here’s how” threads lol

That's a fair take on it, and I believe you need both, but it may be the method that irks people. The thread has some value but is peppered with insults and unnecessary beef, which clouds the message. I will say that later in the thread, there is a good discussion and tidbit, but the first page is bombed. Most people would likely click on and click off.

I think the low-quality posts have been addressed for a while; everyone knows it, and I've personally been very tired of people asking about SMMA viability.

Who did I troll?

I'm not just referring to this thread, but there seems to be a lot of rivalry between yourself and other members over what I see as silly reasons that are an easy fix. Maybe I'm wrong, and I haven't got the whole picture. I've not been around long.

This is another pet-peeve of mine. Whenever I point out "Look, X, Y, Z isn't getting results (money)", I'm told "but it's getting {insert vanity metric here}". It's getting impressions. It's getting likes. It's getting reviews. And so on. The bottom line is that beyond the "feel good" and "let's be popular" contest, the ultimate proof of value, as MJ's books make clear, is money.

I love making money; I like being compensated for my efforts. The bottom line is the lifeline of the business: cash flow and, ideally, profit. I get a kick from the metrics, but the cash is essential. Investing for a while taught me that non-tangible assets are effectively $0. I'm certainly not a charity.

It was super cool when I experienced virality for the first time, but the money coming in matters. I don't do filming videos for the good of my health, I do it to drive traffic to get sales.

However, I do love the reviews. They show a job well done and inklings of a productocracy, which ultimately leads to more money.

We can both agree that these metrics are important factors for running a well-lubricated machine, but they all lead to money—simple as that.

We're not in disagreement.

Otherwise, I'd encourage you to start a charity. Ask for money from rich people, and use that money to do good. Why waste your time trying to make something economically sustainable, when you could get a ton more money and help a lot more people by running a charity, and do it a lot faster too?

As addressed before, profitability and sales are all that matter at the end of the day. The bit around it is fluff that gets to those final $$$.

There’s no thread here which if it was a first impression would make Elon Musk post. If it’s not aligned with what he’s working on, he doesn’t care about it. And you chose the worst example — Elon Musk is a big brat and selfish troll, whom you wouldn’t want to be around.

I thought it was a saying that gets thrown around. I don't care about Elon Musk specifically, but it is an analogy for giving impressions to people.

Let's take me, for example. If I was looking today, looking to join, and I saw petty playground beef between the big "epic/legendary/gold/silver contributors," would that inspire me to post? Probably not. Maybe people don't want me around because I'm not a heavy hitter yet, or I'm not looking to make a buck, but that sounds like a pretty bleak community if there isn't a range of people.

Because guess what — all these guys, if there’s not something in it for THEM, they’re out. They don’t come here for discussions or community — most don’t care about that. They care about dollar signs. And that's what makes them different for you. Caring about others, for these guys, is just food for the plebs. It's not a reflection of their real intentions, which are visible if you look at their actions instead of what comes out of their mouths.

Sure, some people come for the money, but they are fly-by-night people. I see them as no different from the drive-by posters that we see every day here. Sure, I can learn something, but is there something that's going to last? Likely no.

Maybe this is a difference of objective. I personally didn't join the forum and contribute because I wanted money from people. It's because I wanted to learn from others and make some connections & I've never seen so many people that I want to be. Many walk and talk the talk - or at least try to move in that direction. But maybe I'm a big softie who tries to connect and build with people - that's me.

 

[Kevin88660]

Actually there is vibrant offline coaching market place, depending on your location, preferably if you live in big cities.

Research on what your local governments pay people to upgrade their skills. They have something like a credit of 500-1000 per year. It used to be Microsoft office skills that was hot. You just need to research on what are the sponsored skills, fulfill the requirement (being a paid coach in one year beforehand clearly showing the relevant records and apply for relevant accreditation).

Then they hire people to door knock and pitch it. Anyway it’s free for the customers.

There is still competition basically customers have a menu of courses to choose from. Things like Basic AI skills and how to sell things on online platform (for older citizens), these days.

It is much easier to convince someone to use their $500 credit than to pay $50 from their wallets.

For years there have been education companies selling to corporations on soft skills education packages. Social media skills used to be a hot demand.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

I'm sorry it's taken me a while to respond. I wanted to avoid lashing back and throwing ad hominems everywhere, so I took a few days away from reading again. My initial response would not be productive for me or you.

Also, I wouldn't say I like the written format because once I re-read what I've said, there is no tonality, and it looks like I'm outright attacking you, even though that's not my intention. Like you, I like to provoke talk—discuss rather than argue. That goes the same for this post here, too.


I agree; clients will still do business with you regardless of whether you're nice. I wouldn't say you have to be excellent in business.

But I was meant to be referring to the forum. Do you come to the forum to do business? Maybe. But I'm sure you come along because you enjoy engaging with a niche community of entrepreneurs - you wouldn't have gifted me an INSIDERS if you genuinely didn't like the forum [thanks again, by the way ].

I wonder if you're fighting with the wrong people. This is not the first thread I've seen people outright criticise you, not because of what you say, but you directly. These people aren't typical brain-dead haters you see online; they are well-calibrated individuals. How many opportunities are pushed away from a type of attitude? Just a thought: it doesn't need to stay this way, but if you want it to, that's fine, I guess.


That's a fair take on it, and I believe you need both, but it may be the method that irks people. The thread has some value but is peppered with insults and unnecessary beef, which clouds the message. I will say that later in the thread, there is a good discussion and tidbit, but the first page is bombed. Most people would likely click on and click off.

I think the low-quality posts have been addressed for a while; everyone knows it, and I've personally been very tired of people asking about SMMA viability.


I'm not just referring to this thread, but there seems to be a lot of rivalry between yourself and other members over what I see as silly reasons that are an easy fix. Maybe I'm wrong, and I haven't got the whole picture. I've not been around long.


I love making money; I like being compensated for my efforts. The bottom line is the lifeline of the business: cash flow and, ideally, profit. I get a kick from the metrics, but the cash is essential. Investing for a while taught me that non-tangible assets are effectively $0. I'm certainly not a charity.

It was super cool when I experienced virality for the first time, but the money coming in matters. I don't do filming videos for the good of my health, I do it to drive traffic to get sales.

However, I do love the reviews. They show a job well done and inklings of a productocracy, which ultimately leads to more money.

We can both agree that these metrics are important factors for running a well-lubricated machine, but they all lead to money—simple as that.

We're not in disagreement.



As addressed before, profitability and sales are all that matter at the end of the day. The bit around it is fluff that gets to those final $$$.


I thought it was a saying that gets thrown around. I don't care about Elon Musk specifically, but it is an analogy for giving impressions to people.

Let's take me, for example. If I was looking today, looking to join, and I saw petty playground beef between the big "epic/legendary/gold/silver contributors," would that inspire me to post? Probably not. Maybe people don't want me around because I'm not a heavy hitter yet, or I'm not looking to make a buck, but that sounds like a pretty bleak community if there isn't a range of people.


Sure, some people come for the money, but they are fly-by-night people. I see them as no different from the drive-by posters that we see every day here. Sure, I can learn something, but is there something that's going to last? Likely no.

Maybe this is a difference of objective. I personally didn't join the forum and contribute because I wanted money from people. It's because I wanted to learn from others and make some connections & I've never seen so many people that I want to be. Many walk and talk the talk - or at least try to move in that direction. But maybe I'm a big softie who tries to connect and build with people - that's me.

I agree, you need both community and debate. I don’t look at it as one or the other, and I don’t see you or say @AceVentures as my enemies. Heck, I spoke to AceVentures over Zoom, good guy, very intelligent. Doesn’t mean I don’t disagree with him on this topic, but I like the guy.

Maybe because of my Eastern European genes, I just don’t take aggression that personally, and I’m happy to fight with someone one day and hug him the next.

About your business, I think that regardless of anything else, whether it becomes a $1M dollar venture or not you’ll learn a lot from it. I learned a lot from a million failures. You’re already learning what it means to design a product, produce it, sell it, market it — those skills are priceless.

And good that you didn’t join the forum because you wanted money from people. There’s not a lot of it, I’ll tell you that haha. So not the right pond to be fishing in (well, I guess it depends what you want, for some people $10K is a lot of money).

 

[rpeck90]

No, I wouldn’t sell high ticket. That’s hard to sell. That’s what held me back from scaling coaching / consulting which I was selling for $8K-$12K

Atm 70% of our clients are on our $987/mo service (this is up from around 60% 3 months ago). There is a minimum 3-month committment for it now. So effectively it is at least $3K. But it doesn’t FEEL like $3K, because the client thinks “well, if these guys are scammers, I just won’t pay 2nd and 3rd month” (even though legally that becomes an impossibility because we are professionals and fulfil all our contractual obligations, cross every T)

And here “scammers” doesn’t mean they don’t get the final result in month 1, it simply means it’s obviously a low effort service, people answer super slow, there’s a general lack of interest in how you’re doing and so on. Like a fly by night operator essentially. It covers that fear — they know you’re not just going to take the money and not do absolutely anything. Which is a big fear usually.

So have your 3-month value at minimum $3K.

Now when I first started out… it was $750/mo. And no minimum contract (to speed up selling) and counteract lack of (sufficient) testimonials.

That doesn’t mean that you don’t project for a 3-month value. And even engineer for it. Remember people are lazy. How can you engineer the process to apply a laziness tax while maximising your chances of keeping them paying? You don’t want to lose the lazy after just one month right? Just like in chess, you need to think 7-8 moves ahead. If you’re not going to set a minimum contract period legally, how will you do it psychologically? And human psychology has plenty of weaknesses that someone who is determined to get something can leverage against those with much weaker determination — which allows you to legally achieve your aims at this stage of the journey.

So it all depends what the priority is. In the beginning, cash is the priority.

At my current stage cash isn’t the priority anymore. Now delivering a great customer experience, having them get results ASAP, being onboarded fast so they don’t slow us down, long term retention (rather than just short term), now these are the priorities.

Now if I was a goodie tissue fake a$$ guru, what I’d tell you is a different story. I’d say, you see Rich, when you’re young and dumb you start with a certain process. Then you notice clients don’t really follow it, so you change it. And your offer gets better, results get better, clients are happier.
That’s how you build a startup, by iterating to improve your process and following customer feedback

See — it’s the same story. Told from two different perspectives. The one you see in the books is the second one. They only tell you about improving the service so users love it and it gets better results. In other words, the winner hides the real truth of how the win was achieved. They NEVER tell you about how to think strategically and make money. NEVER. You won’t find a single book which teaches or even mentions this stuff.

Suppose we each get 15 people to pay each of us $1K/mo without a minimum contractual period. 20% are lazy (3 people). Now I’m a goodie tissue, and I treat the lazy and the non-lazy alike. I don’t exploit the psychological weakness of the lazy. I don’t structure the payment structure accordingly, I don’t plan for them getting cold feet and wanting out of the deal. And therefore, what ends up happening is I lose 3 people the first month (or I only get $3K from them). You on the other hand are a smart operator. You know some are lazy. Therefore you set up a payment structure where they pay a dumb tax for their laziness. And you know they’re less likely to quit once they have invested something because they feel like they’re throwing money away. Now instead of 1 month, the lazies stay for 5 months with you. Suddenly while I gained $3K extra from the same number of sales, you gained $15K extra. Who will develop faster? Who will have better people? Who will have better growth?

Same reason why you have an automated subscription. It’s not because it’s easier — it’s because clients are lazy, and they will pay for their laziness, instead of having you pay for it.

The only difference between the two stories is that the strategic operator achieves the result due to his intelligence, while the goodie tissue, if he achieves the result at all, does it by LUCK.

Now are you starting to see what it means to build an offer that gets you to your goals? Your goals change as you get more money and the organisation evolves… therefore, the product and the offer will also change.

First you need cash. EVERYTHING needs to be engineered for the accumulation of cash. Legally, of course. I’m not suggesting you do anything illegal. But legally, using all the tools at your disposal, including human weakness.

Once you have cash, then you begin engineering for other goals.

It’s like an army. An army at war uses any and all resources at its disposal to achieve its objective. Most people ruin themselves because instead of doing what is required to achieve the objective, they follow an ideology. “Oh no, this isn’t the right way to build a startup, I need to prioritize customer experience first, not money. I want those glowing testimonials, oh Rich it gets me so high!” *facepalm*

And they fail. Inevitably.


I agree — depth comes later. First figure out how you get people to pay you money. Depth is what builds a moat — it’s the ENTRY factor. Notice how at first I didn’t care about entry. I needed money. It’s not even that I needed it — my business and my organisation needed it.

Then, to shut off the competition and defend the position you’ve taken over, now you bring the depth.


It’s not about time, it’s getting users to keep paying or keep using. I don’t think you can “do it properly” without users. “Doing it properly” requires USERS — many of them. So you learn exactly what’s holding them back, why some people get results and some don’t.

As a new coach, do you think you know what gets results?! Nah, it’s only these fake gurus in a fake culture who pretend to be goodie tissues that tell you they know — so they get you to trust them, hand over your money, and then God help you, maybe you get results, or maybe you don’t. They are the real scammers if you ask me. The truth is nobody knows without extensive experience testing — and extensive experience testing requires many failures and a lot of sacrifices. The goodie tissues won’t ever admit this, because it’s their hidden advantage over you.

You only figure that out by running experiments on people — in this case your clients. So paid or not, you still need users. Even FREE costs you time. You have any idea how hard it is to get me to try a FREE software tool?! It’s mission impossible almost. The fact it’s free doesn’t change anything. Changing my behavior, that’s the hard part. Whether I pay to get my behavior changed or I don’t is secondary.

In fact, you’re better off getting me to pay, than free. If I pay, I feel I’ve wasted my money if I don’t use the goddamn thing. If you give it to me free — nothing lost if I don’t use it.

The only situation where this is different, is if I’m using tool X (say MailCheat(Chimp)) and you’ve built RichChimp, and you tell me “Look — RichChimp does exactly what MailCheat(Chimp) does. Identical copy. We’re going to be adding new features though and building it, but I’m going to let you in for a 1-time, lifetime fee of $200” I’d hand you the money instantly. Because rather than paying $10K+ for a lifetime on MailCheat(Chimp), I’d rather pay you once and switch.

I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the MailCheat(Chimp) competitors grew like this, by going after the big influencers. Gave them all the advantages in the world for free, in exchange they had to promote the shit out of it.

Thank you for the comprehensive response. I'll address specific points below.

-

Atm 70% of our clients are on our $987/mo service (this is up from around 60% 3 months ago). There is a minimum 3-month committment for it now. So effectively it is at least $3K. But it doesn’t FEEL like $3K, because the client thinks “well, if these guys are scammers, I just won’t pay 2nd and 3rd month” (even though legally that becomes an impossibility because we are professionals and fulfil all our contractual obligations, cross every T)

And here “scammers” doesn’t mean they don’t get the final result in month 1, it simply means it’s obviously a low effort service, people answer super slow, there’s a general lack of interest in how you’re doing and so on. Like a fly by night operator essentially. It covers that fear — they know you’re not just going to take the money and not do absolutely anything. Which is a big fear usually.

So have your 3-month value at minimum $3K.

Now when I first started out… it was $750/mo. And no minimum contract (to speed up selling) and counteract lack of (sufficient) testimonials.

That doesn’t mean that you don’t project for a 3-month value. And even engineer for it. Remember people are lazy. How can you engineer the process to apply a laziness tax while maximising your chances of keeping them paying? You don’t want to lose the lazy after just one month right? Just like in chess, you need to think 7-8 moves ahead. If you’re not going to set a minimum contract period legally, how will you do it psychologically? And human psychology has plenty of weaknesses that someone who is determined to get something can leverage against those with much weaker determination — which allows you to legally achieve your aims at this stage of the journey.

Do you have any rationale behind the $987 price? Why not $999, for example?

I appreciate you're effectively baking in a $3k order via their commitment to ~ 3 months of the service - are you using any tricks/systems to encourage them to continue paying (beyond just relying on them to not cancel)?

For example, and building on what I suggested regarding the SaaS side of things, a SaaS platform has the person locked into a portal that the company controls. That gives the opportunity for the company to expand/grow/change the way said platform works in order to minimize churn. I'd imagine you would have the opportunity to do the same, as what you've suggested above is basically a strong "front end" offer with limited backend at the moment.

To explain further, people "use Shopify". They're not "using eCommerce software hosted on the Internet which happens to be called Shopify". Same for other platforms; "I'm going to connect with you on LinkedIn", "Follow me on Twitch".... LinkedIn, YouTube, Facebook, Google, Amazon are databases that live in the sky which allow you to connect with specific sets of data. Their "value skew" was making specific types of data publicly available for the first time, to a global audience and developing a platform + ecosystem around that. If you can get into that place, fastlane all the way.

How that data is procured, presented and - ultimately - monetized is how each of those businesses became worth so much money. We're connected on Linkedin and have never shared messages on there. Yet, I've talked with you plenty on here. Why? Different purposes for the data... LinkedIn is for formal business arrangements, here is a forum where one can share ideas + progress with like-minded peers.

My point is that if you're able to go above "functionality" level, and if you are subsequently able to "own the experience", there are ways and means through which to enhance said experience to make it more commercially attractive. That's where a lot of the value of SaaS applications resides. Slightly off topic but important to discern nonetheless.

I'll address the scammers reference below.

-

Now are you starting to see what it means to build an offer that gets you to your goals? Your goals change as you get more money and the organisation evolves… therefore, the product and the offer will also change.

First you need cash. EVERYTHING needs to be engineered for the accumulation of cash. Legally, of course. I’m not suggesting you do anything illegal. But legally, using all the tools at your disposal, including human weakness.

Once you have cash, then you begin engineering for other goals.

It’s like an army. An army at war uses any and all resources at its disposal to achieve its objective. Most people ruin themselves because instead of doing what is required to achieve the objective, they follow an ideology. “Oh no, this isn’t the right way to build a startup, I need to prioritize customer experience first, not money. I want those glowing testimonials, oh Rich it gets me so high!”

Totally agree with this and I already knew about constructing offers in this way - I was mainly trying to get you to open up about your own business as to provide some value to the thread. A lot of people like to criticise but few will take the time to discern exactly why you've written what you have.

I think you have a wealth of knowledge and, whilst many of the points you raise go against the standard doctrine of this community, they are generally correct and I would like to learn more about them.

In terms of what you've suggested about the cash side of things - correct. I may have written things about building a brand etc but that's because I already found ways to earn money for myself. My predisposition thus became how to take that to the next level (or provide some sort of vision for myself), which is what I've been focused on.

Obviously, you can't do this on a whim and it requires cash to make it work.

I agree — depth comes later. First figure out how you get people to pay you money. Depth is what builds a moat — it’s the ENTRY factor. Notice how at first I didn’t care about entry. I needed money. It’s not even that I needed it — my business and my organisation needed it.

Then, to shut off the competition and defend the position you’ve taken over, now you bring the depth.

Indeed - I call this "defending the flank".

Each time you make any step forward in business, you need to ensure your flank is protected. If it is not, then you may suffer serious - if not cataclysmic - problems which could cause the demise of the business.

Investing time, money and energy into building a "brand" was my answer to this. Obviously, everybody will approach it differently, but the premise is the same regardless; the business has a core set of equitable value which you need to continue to grow. There will be occasions where you have to take risks in order to grow it substantially, and in those cases, you need to ensure you have appropriate downside protection in place.

The notion of creating depth with your brand/offer is part of that process and generally reflective of the work you've undertaken to implement it.

-

In fact, you’re better off getting me to pay, than free. If I pay, I feel I’ve wasted my money if I don’t use the goddamn thing. If you give it to me free — nothing lost if I don’t use it.

The only situation where this is different, is if I’m using tool X (say MailCheat(Chimp)) and you’ve built RichChimp, and you tell me “Look — RichChimp does exactly what MailCheat(Chimp) does. Identical copy. We’re going to be adding new features though and building it, but I’m going to let you in for a 1-time, lifetime fee of $200” I’d hand you the money instantly. Because rather than paying $10K+ for a lifetime on MailCheat(Chimp), I’d rather pay you once and switch.

I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the MailCheat(Chimp) competitors grew like this, by going after the big influencers. Gave them all the advantages in the world for free, in exchange they had to promote the shit out of it.

The one thing I would say here is that, whilst there are some instances where "free" works, anyone who's not a funded startup should avoid it. I've tried it and it only attracts the worst types of buyer. If you can't get paid for the product/service you are offering, you should be aiming to refine or change the offer. It's not cut-and-dry of course, but there are many broke influencers out there.

One of the BIG things that I've found personally is that people "with money" (IE those who have funds for your products/services) want to pay for quality. There is a period where you need to build a portfolio/testimonials, but from then, you need to be getting paid as much as possible for your work. I used to think that it would be best to do good by people and offer a cheaper price, but after getting stung a few times, it's abundantly clear that you need to be aiming for high prices no matter what you're doing.

-

“well, if these guys are scammers, I just won’t pay 2nd and 3rd month” (even though legally that becomes an impossibility because we are professionals and fulfil all our contractual obligations, cross every T)

Having looked at your public site before, one of the things I found was it seemed quite superficial in terms of what you're offering. That's not to say the offer itself is superficial, rather the way it's presented.

It's interesting you would even allude to people thinking you may be scammers. I think that is quite telling -- if I was an impartial person viewing your site/content, that's a question that I would certainly have in my head. I'll attempt to breakdown why, and a potential solution, below.

As someone who would hope to be a potential client of yours soon, the key value I see you providing is a "done for you" B2B promotions partner. If I'm selling software support services, I'd be partial to paying your company to help create a strategy & system to procure leads for bigger projects. My thought process would be.... if I pay these guys £Xk a month, will that lead to a £50k project? If so, how many and how frequently? I don't care how that happens as long as it works.

I understand that there is no "one size fits all" solution to business, and that every company's approach to promotion is different. Furthermore, the only reason why I would even be considering you (or a comparable service provider) is because I would already have my own processes dialled in correctly (ref "defending the flank" above)

If I were looking at your service, my primary concern would be that the way it's currently presented seems very superficial - everything about it screams one of those scammy Internet Marketing seminar/service companies that a lot of younger people try to set up because there is very low barriers to entry. Obviously, I know you're not that way at all, but that's how it seems.

In fact, the only reason I would even consider it is because of what you've posted on here. I don't agree with the way you present many of your ideas, but you generally have very apt insights and (most importantly) it's evident you have the killer instinct that few others do. For this reason alone, I would entrust that you would be able to deliver the results I am looking for. That's a separate conversation but is essentially why I would even consider to use your services. Nothing else you've done or said would do that.

I really do believe that if you took a step back, and embraced a less apocalyptic approach to the backend of the business, you could grow what you're doing substantially. I've seen other businesses making significantly more than yours with people who are 1/10th as intelligent. The difference is they have invested into their "depth" in such a way that I would feel I can trust my company's brand with their processes & approach. I don't get that feeling from yours.

The reason I've written this is because it ties into the LinkedIn question you had the other week; I think that is symptomatic of the problem I've presented above. You've found LinkedIn to work, but are now struggling to think about how you're going to grow the business. I really do believe if you increased the depth behind what you're doing, you would start attracting more substantive projects, clients and companies who want more than what is essentially a glorified lead gen system. You have so much to offer and have already made excellent progress.

Whilst I don't have any specific suggestions, my opinion is such. I've written it in the interest of being constructive: -

• Being able to outreach is dependent on the amount of value you have in the business. I think you are at the juncture that many business fall into, which is that you have benefitted profusely from an external factor with limited internal (independent) value to back it up.
  
  The result is that if you want to grow the business further, you are now looking at latching onto more external factors (IE switch agencies for digital service providers). I think you need to look at the internal side of it before doing that.
  
  
  
• ((Cooky ideas warning - please be gentle with me))
  
  My opinion is there's an invisible force which exists within everything, particularly living things. It may sound strange, but it's essentially the same as something I found called "vril" - a fictional energy which permeates everything and can be manipulated by the living.
  
  Alchemists called it Prima Materia and even Isaac Newton spent decades trying to figure out how to make it. I read about it in the book "The Science of Getting Rich". You'll call bullshit but I think it's real - some people are magnetic. They have "animal magnetism". The reason is they invested into themselves to such a degree that they become sources of adoration, energy and hope. I personally think the Higgs Boson particle is a physical representation of the energy (IE the thing which gives objects mass).
  
  The energy can be built over time. Everybody has it, but few pay any attention to it, hence theirs is weak and depleted. They attempt to make up for the imbalance by draining other people's.
  
  Understanding the energy, how to develop it, manifest it and use it to help others, is what I believe "God" to be.
  
  It is my opinion that having the means to develop the energy is what determines how far some people can go. The modern context may be heavily weighted toward commercial value, but it has existed forever in many forms. Think about someone like Caesar or Napoleon. They were two normal guys who became venerated as Gods. How?
  
  The answer is they chose to commit themselves to an ideal, passion or a cause that they would die for. Through the process of personal development & growth required to become someone able to facilitate the cause, they developed their energy to the point that others venerated them for it.
  
  Of course, there is a "selfish" element to all of that. Everybody is self interested, but if you can use that self-interest to benefit a wider segment of the whole, your energy you have will develop to suit.
  
  
  
• Your value - the thing that people are mostly buying - is you. Your experience, results, ideas, intelligence, creativity and motivation. ALL of that informs the energy you dissipate. A company is people who share the same energy - or, at least, the same outlook on how develop & grow.
  
  It is my view that you are at a point where you would do well to look at developing this "internal" energy within the business with the intent of using it to becoming independently valuable.
  
  I solved how to do this way back when I looked the branding thing --> become "project" centric. Take on disparate work in order to grow the underlying equitable value of the business through the development of initiatives which extend the company's offering.
  
  Doing this is difficult, especially when you have staff to pay. But it does one thing that cannot be faked - it extends the company's underlying equity through the development of new ideas, processes and (eventually) services/products that it has created itself.
  
  The result is that - given enough time & impetus - the company begins to attract people who are committed to it & its ideals. The "invisible energy" is such that it brings weight to your offers and people begin to take what you're doing seriously. Ergo you slowly start to move away from external sources of growth and, instead, the company itself is able to grow by virtue of its own work.
  
  Whilst there are many ways to do this, the key factor is having a core focus and a means to continue to build the equitable value beyond the core competency you're presently known for.
  
  
  
• Obviously, I am writing this from my perspective (predominantly focused on software development where innovation is essential), but I think you likely would benefit from it as well - especially considering your interest in 10xing your company's growth again.
  
  Your business - at present - is laser focused on the LinkedIn niche you've carved out for yourself. This is fine as it's getting you paid, but it's put all of your energy into an external force (LinkedIn), diminishing your ability to broaden your horizon and focus on a wider set of clientele.
  
  All of the larger businesses I look at are not specialists, they generalise and work with a certain network of clients whom they provide a variety of different services. I think you would likely do well to adopt this type of approach, although how it's implemented would obviously be dependent on the specific conditions of the business.

-

As someone who wants to hire you (and, by virtue, your company), the thing I'm most interested in is seeing the vitality of what you "do". I don't care that you have an agency, or are focused on LinkedIn. What have you created?

If you focus on that, I don't see why you would even consider you or what you are doing to be scammy. To me, scamming is a result of highly superficial activities which are either predatory or prey on people that are not as developed/informed as yourself.

Perhaps I'm taking what you wrote too literally but I think it is somewhat telling you'd use the word. I'd never describe the stuff I'm doing now as scammy. Some of the things I did previously could have been considered such, though!

--

I was going to write more but too tired -- I deeply appreciate your response and agree generally with what you've written. The only thing I would highlight is I think the way you've phrased it suggests that you're going to get quick & sharp results which will likely trail off just as quickly.

Do you have any advice on inducing longevity into the offer, even if we agree that you have to do some "questionable" stuff at the beginning to get the ball rolling? I guess that's the depth stuff... have you thought about that much?

 

[Black_Dragon43]

I appreciate you're effectively baking in a $3k order via their commitment to ~ 3 months of the service - are you using any tricks/systems to encourage them to continue paying (beyond just relying on them to not cancel)?

The only "trick" is them getting a positive ROI after 3 months. If they do, they continue, if they don't, then you can use some tricks to keep them for a few more months, but ultimately they leave.

Having said that, the way I optimize it is by learning who gets good results and who doesn't. For example, small web designer targeting plumbers doesn't get a good result. So I don't hunt for him.

I hunt for more of the same businesses as the ones I get good results for through LinkedIn (this is important – I may be able to get good results for them in other ways, but I don't do it. You'll understand why soon).

I look for the type of client who sticks for 8-months+.

For example, and building on what I suggested regarding the SaaS side of things, a SaaS platform has the person locked into a portal that the company controls. That gives the opportunity for the company to expand/grow/change the way said platform works in order to minimize churn. I'd imagine you would have the opportunity to do the same, as what you've suggested above is basically a strong "front end" offer with limited backend at the moment.

We have that too – we call it a Learning Platform. They have access to 40+ hours of video training, 55+ templates/processes they can implement, and bi-weekly group coaching directly with me. It's not really popular though, most people are there for the done-for-you service, and their attention span is too short to go through the Learning Platform. But of course, selling THAT along with the DFY service improves conversions.

But once again – fundamentally people like that as an add-on, but wouldn't join just for it. I have an option where I just offer that, it has few members by comparison to our main DFY service.

Out of the Learning Platform, most DFY clients have barely logged into it LOL.

So investing in something like that feels like investing in a loser. I need to invest in what's bringing the returns for people, right?

Nowadays people are lazy. So DFY seems more appealing.

Of course, having the Learning Platform allows me to posture in front of you, and if you have to choose between the guy without the Learning Platform who offers the same service, and me, you'll pick me. But that's it!

I have 20ish clients in just my Learning Platform paying $249/mo – (well, now we have minimum 1-year contracts for the Learning Platform, so they'll be paying $3K too, but more spread out). But that's not my ideal client, and I don't even put any effort trying to market that particular service. It's virtually impossible to sell economically through direct outreach to strangers except as a downsell to brokies.

Who cares that it teaches you how to start an agency, get clients, scale to $200K/year, etc.? It's hard to sell, so I don't like it. And most people are too lazy to benefit.

My point is that if you're able to go above "functionality" level, and if you are subsequently able to "own the experience", there are ways and means through which to enhance said experience to make it more commercially attractive. That's where a lot of the value of SaaS applications resides. Slightly off topic but important to discern nonetheless.

Can you unpack this more? I'm not sure I catch your drift.

As someone who would hope to be a potential client of yours soon, the key value I see you providing is a "done for you" B2B promotions partner. If I'm selling software support services, I'd be partial to paying your company to help create a strategy & system to procure leads for bigger projects. My thought process would be.... if I pay these guys £Xk a month, will that lead to a £50k project? If so, how many and how frequently? I don't care how that happens as long as it works.

Ok, but how many clients like you could I source? And how much trust would I need to secure that client? Securing you is different, because I'm not hunting after you, you may come from actions that I'm taking because they're fun and I enjoy them, ie sharing my journey on the forum for YEARS. If you do, I'm happy. But I don't count on that. You'd be a terrible investment – I've spent YEARS to get you lol!

So instead, I have a productized service that's very affordable. You can risk $3K testing it. If it works for you, cool, you hang around, if it doesn't, you're off to the next opportunity, or idk, sorting some other agreement with me.

In fact, the only reason I would even consider it is because of what you've posted on here. I don't agree with the way you present many of your ideas, but you generally have very apt insights and (most importantly) it's evident you have the killer instinct that few others do. For this reason alone, I would entrust that you would be able to deliver the results I am looking for. That's a separate conversation but is essentially why I would even consider to use your services. Nothing else you've done or said would do that.

You see, there's a big difference between what I can deliver, and what my COMPANY can deliver. I don't care so much about what I can deliver. I'm pretty sure that if I stepped into your business full power + expertise I could help you grow massively. But, do I want to do that?

That's a very important question.

The reason why is because my genius cannot be transferred to other people. And as a result of that, it's not scaleable. So who cares what I can do? I only care what my company can do, or even what I can educate my people to do.

I quit my first agency when we were getting $40K-50K projects. Because it wasn't scaleable, it needed geniuses to run who ate up all my margins.

I don't want a business that requires geniuses to operate. I need a business that delivers results with common people, while employing the geniuses to work with me ON the business rather than IN the business.

So while I'm an amazing sales asset for my company, "results" delivered cannot depend on me.

I really do believe that if you took a step back, and embraced a less apocalyptic approach to the backend of the business, you could grow what you're doing substantially. I've seen other businesses making significantly more than yours with people who are 1/10th as intelligent. The difference is they have invested into their "depth" in such a way that I would feel I can trust my company's brand with their processes & approach. I don't get that feeling from yours.

I need a lot of unpacking here. What specifically does "depth" mean? How do I invest in "depth"? What does taking a less apocalyptic approach to the backend mean? What even is "my depth"?

I really do believe if you increased the depth behind what you're doing, you would start attracting more substantive projects, clients and companies who want more than what is essentially a glorified lead gen system. You have so much to offer and have already made excellent progress.

That's a key question... is this the correct path to growth? Where our viewpoints diverge is that it seems you are committed to upscaling to bigger businesses (the same way as my clients are – that's why they come to me). I'm not committed to that – I want to get more of the clients my company gets good results for.

Being able to outreach is dependent on the amount of value you have in the business. I think you are at the juncture that many business fall into, which is that you have benefitted profusely from an external factor with limited internal (independent) value to back it up.

The result is that if you want to grow the business further, you are now looking at latching onto more external factors (IE switch agencies for digital service providers). I think you need to look at the internal side of it before doing that.

I like your perspective, but no clue how to leverage it for growth.

It is my view that you are at a point where you would do well to look at developing this "internal" energy within the business with the intent of using it to becoming independently valuable.

I solved how to do this way back when I looked the branding thing --> become "project" centric. Take on disparate work in order to grow the underlying equitable value of the business through the development of initiatives which extend the company's offering.

Doing this is difficult, especially when you have staff to pay. But it does one thing that cannot be faked - it extends the company's underlying equity through the development of new ideas, processes and (eventually) services/products that it has created itself.

How does becoming project centric help with this? How does taking on disparate work help grow the equitable value of the business? What does extend the company's offering mean?

Your business - at present - is laser focused on the LinkedIn niche you've carved out for yourself. This is fine as it's getting you paid, but it's put all of your energy into an external force (LinkedIn), diminishing your ability to broaden your horizon and focus on a wider set of clientele.

All of the larger businesses I look at are not specialists, they generalise and work with a certain network of clients whom they provide a variety of different services. I think you would likely do well to adopt this type of approach, although how it's implemented would obviously be dependent on the specific conditions of the business.

That is true – but again, it's a matter of TRAINING people to deliver those services, it's not a matter of me delivering the services. Last month I took a failing client and got him 7x as many appointments as he had in the past 3 months in just 3 weeks. So what? My people can't replicate that. Therefore not scaleable.

How can I teach someone how to sell the way I've learned to sell by doing it for 12+ years with thousands of people on thousands of sales calls? That's like mission impossible. Sure, I can get someone at a decent level... but still picayune compared to what I can do. Unless, of course, I were to train that person for an entire year. Now with much bigger timeframes, it's possible. But nowadays, people want INSTANT. Not 1 year. They have a heart attack if I say 1 year.

And even if I can train someone in my business – that's not my interest, is it? Because if I train them, then they can leave, and I'm back to square one.

So I'm laser focused on LinkedIn because that's what my people can deliver on. That's what I can train people to deliver on. That's what we have case studies on. And so on. If you are looking for generating leads from LinkedIn, I can bet my a$$ you'd pick me over any other company. The only reason you wouldn't pick me, is if you don't know about me, or you haven't been on a sales call with me.

So you are right, it is diminishing my ability to broaden my horizons. But does the business need that? I don't think so. The business needs MORE clients that it can deliver results for. That's it.

It's the difference between selling a service, and selling a product. I'm selling a product. This is what it is. This is what it does.

Now you're arguing I should be selling a service, if I understand you correctly. B2B growth, regardless of how that growth is achieved?

If that's the case, I'm telling you, that doing that is extremely hard. Because convincing a stranger that I can do that becomes extremely difficult. I need to be able to convince a stranger in minutes. That's the goal, right?

So I'm not opposed to what you're saying, I find it very interesting and happy to explore it, but I don't currently see how it can help.

 

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[Midnightbast111]

I used to be overweight but I just starter not to eat after 18 and no sugar in my diet. Actually I lost weight really quick and also got rid of bad skin so yeah

 

[theNeverMore]

You can’t take weight loss advice from a fat person

When I started to think about this thread that’s what I believed. But specifically for weight loss it’s not so straight forward:

• They might have good general advice, like “avoid junk food”. Despite them being fat, it’s still a valid tip. Same as chain smoker with lung cancer. If they tell me to not smoke, I’ll trust them.
• But actionable advice? Depends. I doubt a fat person has any actionable advice beyond general ones like “eat healthier”. And without real experience with losing weight, they don’t know what struggles people have. You might be better off with ChatGPT.
• The exception here is if you’ve helped hundreds of people to lose weight. Then you know the struggles and can help people. The example that comes to mind are doctors. Plenty of overweight doctors. But they have (some) knowledge of how to lose weight.

Suppose you decide to lose weight. Are you looking for fat people for advice? Or the buffed/skinny people on IG?

If you go the fitness influencer route, you have other problems:

• Most of fitness influencers don’t disclose the full list of stuff they’re taking (liver king lol)
• They mostly sell lifestyle marketing (pictures by the pool looking cool)
• You might get results. But you might not end up looking like them (since it takes years + good nutrition + a few hidden tricks)

I’ve read dozens of business books. Do I know anything about starting a business? F*ck no. All my knowledge is theoretical.

Like learning to get better at s*x from a virgin, you might get goo tips. But in the heat of the moment you won’t know what to do.

TLDR: question more complex than it seems. But I wouldn’t take advice from a fat person on how to lose weight (unless with strong social proof)