Margaritaville (I've Bought A Golf-Course!)

[Antifragile]

Gophers were harder to deal with. They chewed the insulation off of miles of sprinkler wires. We killed 2500 in a 4 year period. Now we kill about 10 per year as they try to come back.

Damn. They look so cute but clearly a PITA for you! Especially in those numbers.

 

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[SteveO]

Damn. They look so cute but clearly a PITA for you! Especially in those numbers.

Took one out today.

 

[Two Dog]

This is awesome. I saw your first post and skipped to the end to see whether it was still active.

Now have to get some more coffee and read the other ten pages. ;-)

Friend of mine sold his training & consulting business about 20 years ago for $30M. He was a big golfer and somehow got the idea to start a brand new upscale course in upstate New York. Found open land, hired Jack Nicklaus for $1M to design it, everything. One of my former sales guys was his brother in law and worked the project with him for three years. I still remember him calling: "Hey, we were just up in a helicopter with Jack Nicklaus flying over the property to take photos for the design." It was all pretty exciting.

Regrettably, his deal went completely down the toilet. Big losses. It was an excellent lesson in learning about understanding the market, demographics, regulatory issues, all of it before jumping into something by buying a big chunk of land in the middle of nowhere and hiring someone famous for something you have zero experience doing.

It sounds pretty dumb summarized like that, but that wasn't at all clear back in the day. Live and learn.

 

[SteveO]

This is awesome. I saw your first post and skipped to the end to see whether it was still active.

Now have to get some more coffee and read the other ten pages. ;-)

Friend of mine sold his training & consulting business about 20 years ago for $30M. He was a big golfer and somehow got the idea to start a brand new upscale course in upstate New York. Found open land, hired Jack Nicklaus for $1M to design it, everything. One of my former sales guys was his brother in law and worked the project with him for three years. I still remember him calling: "Hey, we were just up in a helicopter with Jack Nicklaus flying over the property to take photos for the design." It was all pretty exciting.

Regrettably, his deal went completely down the toilet. Big losses. It was an excellent lesson in learning about understanding the market, demographics, regulatory issues, all of it before jumping into something by buying a big chunk of land in the middle of nowhere and hiring someone famous for something you have zero experience doing.

It sounds pretty dumb summarized like that, but that wasn't at all clear back in the day. Live and learn.

Half of our course was designed by Arnold Palmer. The other half was modified by his team. He played a round here many years ago.

Part of our redesign was required due to anticipated green speeds. Back when the course was designed, green speeds were typically 8-9 on the stimp meter. Today they are more like 10-11. We could not accomplish this with the undulations on the greens. The new grass we are installing will work best at higher green speeds. So, we are reshaping to have character and allow for the speed.

It costs a lot of money to build a golf course. Not too many being built anymore.

 

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[MetalGear]

Half of our course was designed by Arnold Palmer. The other half was modified by his team. He played a round here many years ago.

Part of our redesign was required due to anticipated green speeds. Back when the course was designed, green speeds were typically 8-9 on the stimp meter. Today they are more like 10-11. We could not accomplish this with the undulations on the greens. The new grass we are installing will work best at higher green speeds. So, we are reshaping to have character and allow for the speed.

It costs a lot of money to build a golf course. Not too many being built anymore.

 

[Two Dog]

It costs a lot of money to build a golf course. Not too many being built anymore.

I recall $7M being the total loss. It stood out to me as "Holy Crap, that's 1/4 of his net worth gone in one deal!!"

Just finished the entire thread. Thanks for taking the time to write everything over the years. Just the work involved in upgrading and maintaining the course is staggering. It's akin to owning a fleet of wooden sailboats complete with all the arcane knowledge, maintenance and impossible to find parts.

How long did you think it would take to turn around when deciding to make the purchase six years ago?

However you interpret that. It could be running on autopilot, hobby business, cashflow positive, profitable sale, whatever. Just curious if there was much of a gap between the original thinking and the reality over the next several years. I've worked hard on reducing my expectations and lengthening timelines over the years for long-term projects and would rate my timeline estimates as 2x off nowadays which is a huge improvements over twenty years ago.

@SteveO

 

[SteveO]

Ha! Thats me.

 

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[SteveO]

How long did you think it would take to turn around when deciding to make the purchase six years ago?

However you interpret that. It could be running on autopilot, hobby business, cashflow positive, profitable sale, whatever. Just curious if there was much of a gap between the original thinking and the reality over the next several years. I've worked hard on reducing my expectations and lengthening timelines over the years for long-term projects and would rate my timeline estimates as 2x off nowadays which is a huge improvements over twenty years ago.

I have typically been an apartment building flipper. This one was basically a retirement play.

I did get sick for a few years and tried to sell it.

We took it from the worst to best course in town in about 3 years. The changes we are making now are basically intended to shore up that spot. It should also be cheaper to operate if the plan works out.

Still holding it as a retirement play though.

 

[Two Dog]

I have typically been an apartment building flipper. This one was basically a retirement play.

I did get sick for a few years and tried to sell it.

We took it from the worst to best course in town in about 3 years. The changes we are making now are basically intended to shore up that spot. It should also be cheaper to operate if the plan works out.

Still holding it as a retirement play though.

That's really interesting.

We had a handful of SFHs going into 2008. Mentored with a couple local guys with multiple apartment buildings around the country, realized there was zero overlap with our residential property experience largely due to financing and due diligence, decided that acquiring 15 - 40 door properties was the sweet spot for the future and had just about committed to buying apartment buildings and commercial properties when the market crashed.

Lockdown commences. Ten years pass. I'm no longer buried in debt and "should-a could-a would-a done-things-differently" regrets. My takeaway after the 2008 meltdown was to never sell RE. Never. Unless it's being 1031ed into a bigger property. So different from you starting out flipping and liquidating all the RE for the golf course.

Commercial RE is still my lost love. I put a *$%^Y&U*I* of time into learning it without executing a single deal.

 

[SteveO]

Trap set...


Ready for the crockpot.



One more down...

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

Trap set...
View attachment 44221

Ready for the crockpot.

View attachment 44223

One more down...

I thought you never hurt any animal, even a bug. But those gophers destroying the course, I can see why!

 

[Antifragile]

I thought you never hurt any animal, even a bug. But those gophers destroying the course, I can see why!

He didn’t. The trap did.

 

[SteveO]

I thought you never hurt any animal, even a bug. But those gophers destroying the course, I can see why!

Gophers, bedbugs, cockroaches, and scorpions in the house are exceptions.

 

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[SteveO]

He didn’t. The trap did.

Time for trap control!

 

[Antifragile]

Time for trap control!

Especially for ppl who talk too much (?). Vote now! Vote here.

Haha.

 

[The Sandman]

Trap set...
View attachment 44221

Ready for the crockpot.

View attachment 44223

One more down...

Have you considered the Rodenator?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgztUzqaL3E

 

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[SteveO]

Have you considered the Rodenator?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgztUzqaL3E

Ha! I like my method just fine. This looks fun though.

 

[ninjanags]

SteveO been following this thread for a while. Awesome man! Golf courses are no easy task but if you have your ducks in a row and manage it well you can make it THE place people go for recreation. From looking at your website and the stuff you are offering to public looks like you are doing very well. I'm an avid, scratch handicap golfer, have travelled the world playing in tournaments and at many top courses and I have to say the thing that makes me want to come back to a course is always the experience. Its not really the views, or the conditioning (to a degree), or the history or whatever. Did I have an awesome time playing there? Did I get good value for my dollars spent? Did I get great service in all facets from booking a tee time, to food and beverage, to playing the round like it wasnt jam packed with the marshall up our a$$, etc. All these things add up and it doesnt matter if the course is a local muni or Pebble Beach, can you get people to come back again and again because they had such a good time. If yes, you cracked it. And it looks like you are doing that. I'm not down in your area very often but if I do make my way there someday I will definitely come play at your place.

Cheers!

Justin

 

[ninjanags]

One quick suggestion that could help drive business, your website is solid but have you considered putting drone flyovers of your holes on the website for customers to see what the golf course is like? That or at minimum a kind of stylized graphic of the hole from above maybe with some quick notes on how it plays from the pro or whoever. Like "this is a 440 yard par 4 from the tips, our toughest par 4 on the course, a dogleg left that has a tough tee shot guarded by water on the left and bunkers on the right, approaching the green is another deep front left bunker with a green sloping back to front." Just an example. I really find when I'm looking at courses to play, if they have the drone flyover it helps tremendously on choosing where to play. The right videographer/photographer can really bring a course to life with good lighting, proper shooting. I think it adds value to the experience. I know when I don't see this on a website it makes me wonder what the course is like and that question mark could be enough to persuade me to play another place. Just a thought.

 

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[SteveO]

SteveO been following this thread for a while. Awesome man! Golf courses are no easy task but if you have your ducks in a row and manage it well you can make it THE place people go for recreation. From looking at your website and the stuff you are offering to public looks like you are doing very well. I'm an avid, scratch handicap golfer, have travelled the world playing in tournaments and at many top courses and I have to say the thing that makes me want to come back to a course is always the experience. Its not really the views, or the conditioning (to a degree), or the history or whatever. Did I have an awesome time playing there? Did I get good value for my dollars spent? Did I get great service in all facets from booking a tee time, to food and beverage, to playing the round like it wasnt jam packed with the marshall up our a$$, etc. All these things add up and it doesnt matter if the course is a local muni or Pebble Beach, can you get people to come back again and again because they had such a good time. If yes, you cracked it. And it looks like you are doing that. I'm not down in your area very often but if I do make my way there someday I will definitely come play at your place.

Cheers!

Justin

Somehow i missed this post. Been very busy lately.

Very interesting point of view.

The courses down here in Yuma don't really use marshals. We do as I want to keep the course in good shape.

Most of my effort goes into playability. Our director of golf works on the other aspects of operations and player experience.

Yuma is also inexpensive. Prime time round is about $60. We don't enjoy the revenue that would allow us to become great. I still want to get there though.

We are packed solid for 3 months of the year. Play can get slow. I feel that most people like the fact that we utilize marshals to keep things moving.

We are getting GPS in our carts this year. Then we can mostly marshal from the clubhouse.

Thanks for the perspective.

 

[SteveO]

One quick suggestion that could help drive business, your website is solid but have you considered putting drone flyovers of your holes on the website for customers to see what the golf course is like? That or at minimum a kind of stylized graphic of the hole from above maybe with some quick notes on how it plays from the pro or whoever. Like "this is a 440 yard par 4 from the tips, our toughest par 4 on the course, a dogleg left that has a tough tee shot guarded by water on the left and bunkers on the right, approaching the green is another deep front left bunker with a green sloping back to front." Just an example. I really find when I'm looking at courses to play, if they have the drone flyover it helps tremendously on choosing where to play. The right videographer/photographer can really bring a course to life with good lighting, proper shooting. I think it adds value to the experience. I know when I don't see this on a website it makes me wonder what the course is like and that question mark could be enough to persuade me to play another place. Just a thought.

I will wait until the course reconstruction is complete and fully grown in.

Great idea!

 

[Two Dog]

The courses down here in Yuma don't really use marshals. We do as I want to keep the course in good shape.

We are packed solid for 3 months of the year. Play can get slow. I feel that most people like the fact that we utilize marshals to keep things moving.

What's the average play through time nowadays?

I've always wondered how much of a premium people would pay to finish in under three hours guaranteed. The Scots seem to think 2.5 hours walking is borderline acceptable. Americans seem to think four hours is reasonable and start griping in the 5-6 hour range. Weekend recreational golf in the greater Chicagoland area could easily take 6-7 hours for a full round. Not fun. That's largely why I stopped playing many years ago.

Personally, I don't think carts or marshalls or GPS or course rules change the equation much. It's the culture.

People don't like being scolded when they're paying for an experience. Anyone who's played more than ten rounds knows that. It's definitely not a skill equals faster play equation. Crappy golfers love to emulate the PGA tour pros on TV who spend three minutes prepping for each shot because it's worth a boatload of money. In the real world, most of them could easily play through in two hours and still shoot scratch or under. That why they're playing on tour in the first place.

I'm a mediocre golfer who actively contributes to the problem because I enjoy casually walking along smoking a cigar and drinking beer. Too many practice swings. Too much time looking for lost balls. Too much time celebrating the miracle shot every third hole. Despite all that, I've played with scratch golfer friends who get angry at me for playing at a glacial speed and I've played with scratch golfer friends where I'm standing around saying "Dude, hit the ball already. Jesus Christ!!!"

Here's an idea for you...

Fast Play Fridays. You timestamp every golfer on the the first hole and the last hole. Anyone who finishes in under 150 minutes gets a free round. Anyone who finishes over pays double. You leave enough time between starts to make it a fair game. My bet is you could promote this for a six hour block each week and build a core base of golfers who build a culture of fast play to cultivate that into the other 6.75 days of playing time. You could double the throughput.

I honestly wonder who would play in this kind of game, but it would be pretty damn entertaining to see the results.

 

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[SteveO]

What's the average play through time nowadays?

I've always wondered how much of a premium people would pay to finish in under three hours guaranteed. The Scots seem to think 2.5 hours walking is borderline acceptable. Americans seem to think four hours is reasonable and start griping in the 5-6 hour range. Weekend recreational golf in the greater Chicagoland area could easily take 6-7 hours for a full round. Not fun. That's largely why I stopped playing many years ago.

Personally, I don't think carts or marshalls or GPS or course rules change the equation much. It's the culture.

People don't like being scolded when they're paying for an experience. Anyone who's played more than ten rounds knows that. It's definitely not a skill equals faster play equation. Crappy golfers love to emulate the PGA tour pros on TV who spend three minutes prepping for each shot because it's worth a boatload of money. In the real world, most of them could easily play through in two hours and still shoot scratch or under. That why they're playing on tour in the first place.

I'm a mediocre golfer who actively contributes to the problem because I enjoy casually walking along smoking a cigar and drinking beer. Too many practice swings. Too much time looking for lost balls. Too much time celebrating the miracle shot every third hole. Despite all that, I've played with scratch golfer friends who get angry at me for playing at a glacial speed and I've played with scratch golfer friends where I'm standing around saying "Dude, hit the ball already. Jesus Christ!!!"

Here's an idea for you...

Fast Play Fridays. You timestamp every golfer on the the first hole and the last hole. Anyone who finishes in under 150 minutes gets a free round. Anyone who finishes over pay doubles. You leave enough time between starts to make it a fair game. My bet is you could promote this for a six hour block each week and build a core base of golfers who build a culture of fast play to cultivate that into the other 6.75 days of playing time. You could double the throughput.

I honestly wonder who would play in this kind of game, but it would be pretty damn entertaining to see the results.

4 hours and 20 minutes is our goal. Yes we may lose some golfers of we nag or make them skip a hole.

Takes me 1.5 hours by myself with nobody in the way...

 

[SteveO]

Fast Play Fridays. You timestamp every golfer on the the first hole and the last hole. Anyone who finishes in under 150 minutes gets a free round. Anyone who finishes over pay doubles. You leave enough time between starts to make it a fair game. My bet is you could promote this for a six hour block each week and build a core base of golfers who build a culture of fast play to cultivate that into the other 6.75 days of playing time. You could double the throughput.

People would game the system and I wouldn't have any revenue. We already time them.

 

[Two Dog]

People would game the system and I wouldn't have any revenue. We already time them.

Nah, you're missing the point. It's a marketing thing. Or a marketing joke depending on your perspective.

The free rounds are giveaways to build a culture. The vast majority of "competitors" will never finish in under 2.5 hours and the house will end up winning far more often than not. You'd earn double greens fees on most of the rounds from people laughing about how they couldn't finish the course in time. It's a carnival act like trying to walk up that rope ladder thing to ring the bell. Not golf with bated breath and polite applause for sinking a 30' putt.

I'd expect the majority of players would be young kids who couldn't afford to play otherwise. But anything novel that entertains people inevitably gathers momentum and takes on a life of its own. Those same young kids could easily bring traffic to the course from demographics you've never imagined. I happen to like staging random experiments and seeing how the real world reacts. Not offering it as a sound business growth strategy by any means.

 

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[SteveO]

Nah, you're missing the point. It's a marketing thing. Or a marketing joke depending on your perspective.

The free rounds are giveaways to build a culture. The vast majority of "competitors" will never finish in under 2.5 hours and the house will end up winning far more often than not. You'd earn double greens fees on most of the rounds from people laughing about how they couldn't finish the course in time. It's a carnival act like trying to walk up that rope ladder thing to ring the bell. Not golf with bated breath and polite applause for sinking a 30' putt.

I'd expect the majority of players would be young kids who couldn't afford to play otherwise. But anything novel that entertains people inevitably gathers momentum and takes on a life of its own. Those same young kids could easily bring traffic to the course from demographics you've never imagined. I happen to like staging random experiments and seeing how the real world reacts. Not offering it as a sound business growth strategy by any means.

I appreciate this input but there are to many reasons is not feasible. We want, encourage, and even force people to play in foursomes. Every 10 minutes another group tees off. The course is lined with people and many have to wait for the group in front of them.

All foursomes all day is the goal.

When I said game the system, people would skip holes to make sure they get it free. It would be chaos with groups cutting in front of others.