Making Money Online with Gambling

[Jakeeck]

Don't do it is my advice. (poker)

I played professionally for a couple years. Made OK money. ^^ This guy right above me is a savage making that much, but not only is it extremely competitive now, but you're also competing against bots and AI that is getting smarter every single day, and those bots don't have emotions -- they don't tilt. They can play perfect poker all day.

Plus, it's not very fun to think about how the majority of your income is coming against degenerate addicted gamblers (the fish) sitting at stakes they can't afford to play.

Made me feel dirty in a way and that weighed on me as time went on.

Long story short, poker is almost dead, don't do it.

 

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[FreshNash]

I'm your man!
Professional Poker Player since 2014.
Currently making 15/20k/month, after years of studying strategies.

I'm planning to quit next year, too much stress and study compared to the money I earn!

 

[Patrick Jones]

I played online poker for several years, from 2008 on I think. You can start out with very little investment and work your way up to higher stakes.

The micro stakes (where you sit down at the table with $2) are very easy, but obviously with only cents at stake, you won't exactly clear a month's rent there. The higher limits ($100 and up) are much tougher and you will face competition with years of experience.

Most important "skill" to have is discipline. You can loose an evening's winnings in a minute of frustrated tilting.

Two good resources on the subject are 2+2 and PS:
Two Plus Two Poker Forum - Poker Strategy Forums
Online Poker Strategy School - PokerStrategy.com

 

[TryHardTriad]

Ex-low stakes cash table grinder here. Reflecting exactly what other guys here have said, online poker is ridiculously competitive and you need insane robotic focus and discipline to maintain an edge. After playing millions of hands and an embarrassing number of hours on poker, I reckon I could have made similar money working a minimum wage job. = Slowlane

As for sports betting, I had fun 'career' making around £10k to help me through uni. But once again, it is all about the time, energy and focus you waste that could be spent learning how to make REAL money through business. = Slowlane

I only wish I could go back and force my 16 year old self to apply the same focus to entrepreneurship. Sure gambling can be a bit of fun, but as a way of making money, it's an obvious HYPERREALITY meant for the masses.

Hopefully other young men can see this thread to stop them from wasting their time like I did.

TLDR: Spend your time learning business, not gambling for the hope of thousands.

Good luck!

 

[LittleMissFancy]

I am very curious to see if someone in the forum has experience making money with betting or playing poker online.

I've played poker recreationally both live and online for several years and can tell you that I don't personally know anyone currently making a living playing online poker however I know several who play live poker for a living (at a brick and mortar casino). Can it be done online? Sure, plenty do. But the time and energy spent playing, learning, studying, reviewing hands in your poker tracking software, etc. versus what you would likely make, wouldn't make the juice worth the squeeze in my opinion. You'd be better served putting that energy into another business that has the potential to grow into an operation in which you aren't trading your time for money.

Having said that, I enjoy learning the game and the deeper strategic nuances and playing poker as a hobby in my spare time for fun. I look at it as a fun way to have some friendly competition but I also track my results because I like to measure those kinda things!

 

[richstone.io]

I've played poker recreationally both live and online for several years and can tell you that I don't personally know anyone currently making a living playing online poker however I know several who play live poker for a living (at a brick and mortar casino). Can it be done online? Sure, plenty do. But the time and energy spent playing, learning, studying, reviewing hands in your poker tracking software, etc. versus what you would likely make, wouldn't make the juice worth the squeeze in my opinion. You'd be better served putting that energy into another business that has the potential to grow into an operation in which you aren't trading your time for money.

Having said that, I enjoy learning the game and the deeper strategic nuances and playing poker as a hobby in my spare time for fun. I look at it as a fun way to have some friendly competition but I also track my results because I like to measure those kinda things!

Having played professionally live and offline I just can underline the points made above.

It may be fun at the beginning but can also quickly become a liability and repetitive as time goes by. You may feel sometimes as an assembly line worker. Being on this forum you might be more interested in ways to make money where you don't trade your (night-!) time for money.

Unless you plan a solid business model around that (staking other players, running your own [illegal] games, creating an educational portal/blog/books or building other passive income sources) you can also go educate yourself on something more stable and meaningful, like running SaaS businesses.
Your income will depend on the stakes you play. I had a very good run over one thousand hours in a live casino with 10 big blinds per hour which is a very high rate. Your winrate will drop the higher you go. If you play online you'll have a trade-off between playing many table with a lower rate or a higher rate with a few tables. Just google poker winrates to get a feeling if that is what you want to trade your time for.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

I used to make $5-10k a year sports betting.

It wasn't worth doing full-time, but could be once sports betting is legalized.

Look at betting exchanges where the odds are better. Something like matchbook.com if you're allowed to play there.

Let's say the book takes 1%, then all you have to do is hit above 50.5% of your bets at even odds to make a profit.

If it's the typical 5%, then you have to hit above 52.5%. Those two percentage points can make all the difference over the course of a season. Something to keep in mind.

Oh, and stats. You need to get good at crunching numbers and figuring out where there's positive EV.

Good luck.

 

[richstone.io]

as I was reading and writing this, I realized we should do a Millionaire Fastlane online poker tournament at some point
(sorry for offtopic )

 

[richstone.io]

I'm your man!
Professional Poker Player since 2014.
Currently making 15/20k/month, after years of studying strategies.

I'm planning to quit next year, too much stress and study compared to the money I earn!

So, you are out for our TMF -poker-night. Only solid fish allowed

Does your winrate come from playing online cash game?

Yeah, the stress factor is not to be underestimated: all the highs and lows in addition to the inhuman lifestyle (living at night, f*cked up casino food if you play live or social isolation if you play online etc.) can mess up your hormone system, unless you are well aware of all that and working on your mental/meta game as hard as on your strategy skills.

 

[FreshNash]

So, you are out for our TMF -poker-night. Only solid fish allowed

Does your winrate come from playing online cash game?

Yeah, the stress factor is not to be underestimated: all the highs and lows in addition to the inhuman lifestyle (living at night, f*cked up casino food if you play live or social isolation if you play online etc.) can mess up your hormone system, unless you are well aware of all that and working on your mental/meta game as hard as on your strategy skills.

Only online cash game, yeah, and never been a tournament's fan! My main game is Heads up but nowaday it's definitely dead since in this speciality Bots are way too good! I had to switch to 6-max and fullring pretty fast

For the stress, you are right, it's quite hard to be balanced! An entrepreneur can focus on his job, follow some basic healty routines and do well. A Poker player who wants to compete in order to make >100k/year need to be F*cking accurate with his lifestyle. I personally have a lot of routines and my life is pretty strict. I meditate, I have a personal trainer for the gym workouts and one for the nutrition+supplements, I have a life coach (not a fake guru, a real therapist) for the downswing periods/burnouts, I live in a sunny city to take a lot of sun. Plus, I work on my strategic game and mental game everyday and I pay a personal coach 400$/h.

I feel that I'm doing too much for 250k/year lol

 

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[astr0]

My friend made some good money playing poker. He was probably in top50 in the world 2 years ago when he quit before fulfilling his dream of making it to the WSOP final table (got close though on 2nd attempt). He thinks that poker is dying now because of competition, especially with software and bots (which are not all machine-learning AI based). His wife started to play professionally around 2 years ago and had $100k+ best month since then. He says that she has more potential than him because somehow she's more cold-blooded and her brain works faster.

He invested a lot of money in different businesses, some profitable some don't, some failed.
Most notable is top2 massage company in Ukraine offering services for IT companies.
Most notable failure - he tried to open his poker room with Chinese poker, burned a lot of money for development and marketing, had a lot of bugs in his software and Chinese poker fad faded away while he was fixing them with a different company. Max online was around 40 people playing the lowest stakes.

Another friend still plays but is not that successful. He spent over 7 years studying to become a surgeon and worked for 3 years, playing poker in spare time. Had an opportunity to emigrate and get a nice medical salary (in Ukraine surgeons get around $200/month..., a bit more in private hospitals but still nothing compared to 1st countries), but refused it, quit his job and now playing poker full time. He also was a coach on PokerStrategy for quite a while. I don't know his average earnings, but he recently had first profitable week after full 3 months of losses day to day.

They play on some illegal Chinese online rooms now with richer fish and less competition. Some fish is regular there, constantly losing huge sums of money for fun. But it's still one fishy player and a lot of regulars at the table at a time.

The first friend and his wife play few high stake tables, second is grinding 18-20+ tables mid stakes.

The casino and betting booker earn more than players and although there are some millionaires from poker, there are a lot more business millionaires.

 

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[User62861]

You can check Betfair Exchange (not Betfair regular sports betting).

For example, you BACK (buy) odd when it's 1,12 and LAY (sell) when it's 1,90 for example...and you can do it other way around. This is live exchange (betting). You can choose any sport you like. One of the most popular is UK horse racing.

I know people making $60k per tennis match or $3k per horse race.

You can trade in a way to get yourself in the position you win no matter who wins the race/match.

But for good trading you will need a 3rd party software that is approved by Betfair (one of the biggest betting company in the world).

Here is a good video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lvuk-wgZ8I

 

[The Abundant Man]

Is this you?

(though it was Baccarat in the original novel)

 

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[LittleMissFancy]

as I was reading and writing this, I realized we should do a Millionaire Fastlane online poker tournament at some point
(sorry for offtopic )

I LOVE this idea, count me in! We could take this a step further and do a Fastlane Poker Tournament/Meetup in Vegas this summer

 

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[msufan]

Would you be interested in sharing more about your experience doing this? I'm super intrigued!

I have made money through gaming in a variety of ways.

1. Skill gaming: sites like WorldWinner and RoyalGames were really good to me for a long time.
2. Online poker: I am not good enough to win at online poker nowadays, but it was a nice little run in the post-Moneymaker boom.
3. Daily Fantasy Sports: this was an advantage play for a bit, especially with promos and bonus money.
4. Online casinos: crazy as it sounds, even things like slot tournaments and bonus chasing can both be profitable over time.
5. Lottery: my state lottery has an online site with bonuses and offers that are +EV from time to time.

This is not Fastlane, but I use it to relax in place of watching TV or something mindless, and I essentially get paid a decent amount to have fun.

 

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[3feetfromgold]

I make $(-600.00) to +$5,400 a month playing poker with an average around $2,500. Why the range? I'll explain below.

Poker as a consistent income source is about psychology and risk management. Without these two skills, you are merely gambling.

In poker, and business in general, you are looking for an edge. Even a slight edge (51% win to 49% loss) is enough in the long run.

This edge could be playing live and knowing that you are playing against tourists in Las Vegas. In this case, your win percent goes up from let's say 51% to 60%.

Win % is never 100%. Nothing is ever guaranteed.

Like someone else mentioned earlier, online poker is very competitive these days. I would only recommend you play at the smaller micro tables to learn the basic rules and strategy. Players today use a variety of tools to create an edge. New online players only help increase that edge for pros because they don't have those tools. New players are the fish.

My edge is playing live. At least it was until Covid happened. I live close to Las Vegas so once a month I would book a room and drive down to Vegas. Either on a Friday or Saturday night. I look for drunk tourists, rich men looking to impress their wife/girlfriend/mistress, and gamblers. I stay away from the regulars, high rollers, and locals.

Risk Management

Now back to my $(-600.00) to $3,000 range. This all has to do with my risk management. I only allow myself to stay one night max. I can't stand being in Vegas for more than one night. I don't party or drink. I'm there to make money and leave.

I only allow myself to buy in twice, hence the maximum loss of $(-600.00). I play $1/3 so 1 buy in is $300. If I lose twice, I take the rest of the trip to grab food, chill, do some reading. I never play any other games. Poker is the only skill game in Las Vegas. Everything else is gambling because the odds are against you. This is why casino's make millions.

I also limit myself to one buy in per session. I play two sessions. I play once the night I arrive and once the next day during the afternoon before I head home. Sometimes I'll skip the next day session depending on what I have planned. Sometimes I'll even skip the evening session (more on that below).

Evening Session

After arriving and checking into my hotel room, I'll grab something to eat and then head back up to my room. I'll meditate and then warm up with some online poker. Yes, meditating is important. It is practically essential to block out internal noise when at the table. I have a set routine I follow before every session. You must treat this like a sport. Look up how athletes prepare before a big game and model your routine after them. Works for business and morning routines as well.

Unlike professional sports athletes, I have the choice of when to play and when not to play. If I am NOT FEELING 100% psychologically. I skip my evening session. I track every session in an excel document, have all my win/loss/notes on how I'm feeling etc. and I know if I'm not feeling 100%, my win percent goes down. It is very important to journal if you are going to take this seriously.

After I make the decision on whether to play or not, I head down to play, aka "work". Usually for about 2-3 hours unless I bust. If I bust, I do not rebuy. I save that rebuy for the next day.

Next Day Morning Session

My edge is higher in the evening session because there are more drunks etc. I avoid playing the morning after because that's when there are more professionals playing. In the afternoon, after people wake up hungover from partying, sometimes they'll sit for a few hours to play some poker.

Again, I don't have to play. I skip this session about 50% of the time. I skip if I've already met my win condition of $3,000 or if I just don't feel like playing. As a poker player, you are trading time for money, just like any job. This job just happens to be at a casino.

Math

What?! Only $3,000? I thought you said $5,400. Yes, I didn't mistype that. This is another aspect of risk management. If I'm ever up 10x my buy in, I leave the table ($300 x 10). I don't like to play deep stacked. E.g. If I have $3,000 at the table and another player also has $3,000 at the table, I lose some edge. That one player could wipe me out. I only play when I have a significant edge.

So here are my scenarios:

1. I lose both sessions: $-600 loss
2. I lose one session and only play one session: $-300 loss
3. I lose one session and win second session: $-300 + $X to $3,000 (-$300 buy in) = $2,400 max profit
4. I win one session and decide to only play one session: $X to $3,000 (-$300 buy in) = $2,700 max profit
5. I win both sessions: $X to $3,000 (-$300 buy in) x 2 = $5,400 max profit

Now, you can go back to these scenarios with your trusty excel sheet and attach win percentages and probabilities. Notice how my maximum loss is only $-600 but my maximum win is $5,400? It's just math at the end of the day.

$X above represents if I choose to leave the table before I reach my 10x big blind. This happens if I lose my edge. E.g. if a pro sits at my table, if fish leave the table, if other players suddenly start being deep stacked against me. In poker and life you are constantly scanning the environment and looking for opportunities. Don't take chances and gamble. Take advantage when you have an edge. I am never obligated to stay until I meet my win condition and I am never obligated to stay until I lose my buy-in. I leave when I lose my edge. This could be if I start feeling tired or hungry. Tired or hungry = losing edge.

I have data on all of these scenarios above. I know how often scenario 1 happens and how often scenario 5 happens. Scenario 1 happens about once a year. Over the years, I've shifted more towards taking the second session off If I lose the first one.

Why stop at $5,400? Because that's my sweet spot. That's where I have the highest win %. Higher stakes don't work for me and playing more than two sessions is draining. The lifestyle works for me because I only have to dedicate 1.5 days per month and can work on my business the rest of the month.

I also use poker as a way to take a break from my business. Best case I pay for my bills for the month. Worst case, I lose $1,000 (after hotel, food, gas) and treat it like a mini vacation.

Summary

This was a lot longer than I thought it would be. But since this is an area that I'm pretty familiar with, I thought I'd share.

Playing poker has taught me a lot about making decisions. There are a lot of takeaways for business. Learning how to control emotions, looking for and taking advantage of opportunities, psychology, money management, math, etc.

Anyways, this was just meant to be a quick summary. The world of poker is a strange one but you get what you put into it. There are tons of resources online to learn which you can find by googling. This is by no means a get rich quick. It takes YEARS to get good at playing poker and YEARS to become consistently profitable.

Even then, you have chances of bad streaks. You must be fully bank rolled and must only play with expendable income. Fully bank rolled means 100x minimum buy in at whatever stake you decide to play. You can use probability to calculate what the odds are of losing 100 times in a row. If you can't afford 100 buy ins at $1/$3 stakes, then find lower stake games.

Hope this helps, good luck

 

[Patrick Jones]

Thank you! Do you have any books recommendations to get started?

For learning I would not recommend books. Sites like PokerStrategy have great video material where experienced players walk you through their tought processes while playing. Participating in forums, posting hands you played, is also very valuable.

For entertainment: Doyle Brunson's live story: The Godfather of Poker: The Doyle Brunson Story by Doyle Brunson

 

[FreshNash]

Don't do it is my advice. (poker)

I played professionally for a couple years. Made OK money. ^^ This guy right above me is a savage making that much, but not only is it extremely competitive now, but you're also competing against bots and AI that is getting smarter every single day, and those bots don't have emotions -- they don't tilt. They can play perfect poker all day.

Plus, it's not very fun to think about how the majority of your income is coming against degenerate addicted gamblers (the fish) sitting at stakes they can't afford to play.

Made me feel dirty in a way and that weighed on me as time went on.

Long story short, poker is almost dead, don't do it.

I agree that making 200/250k per year is quite a lot with this actual situation in the poker scenario. The top 5 in the world make only 5M/year (and not legally). I say "only" because the effort needed to climb to the elite is insanely mad!

 

[Conrad]

I have done statistical experiments with online sports betting. You will lose in the long term, what ever you do. Look for trading & risk management, leverage trading...higher odds & losses can be controlled. You want to win in the long run.

EDIT: The only winner in the long run is the betting organizer

 

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[oa92]

I do matched betting and casino offers.

Matched betting is risk free and is simply taking advantage of bookies free bets (backing and laying opposing outcomes).

Casino offers is taking advantage of the casino offers where they give you free spins if you wager X amount. This relies on the expected value off the offers over a long period of time.

For about an hours work a day you can make about £1000 per month, but I know of some people who spend a lot more time on it and make way more than £1000 per month.

 

[Maxboost]

Baccarat is the only game worth playing with a small house advantage of -1% EV. I think it's no different than day trading.

Online poker is the worse game to play since the competition is too good, you are better off playing in a live casino.

 

[FreshNash]

Wow, it sounds like you have your life down to as much as a science as possible. Being in a sunny city has got to be hugely beneficial considering you are spending so much time inside so when you have time to spend outdoors, cant risk it being crappy and cold How long do you see yourself continuing on the poker grind?

If the plan A works, I'll be out at the end of this year!

 

[Veloce Grey]

Echoing others here but for the vast majority of people it belongs in that "nice side interest" niche. The burnout rate is very high as our current/former poker pros have mentioned.

The effort and intelligence you'd put in to be decently profitable long term in most markets from the consumer side would generate far higher returns in a more conventional business, and obviously if you're building a business you can have something to sell when you want to exit.

Personally I'd still watch countless races per week if I had billions so it's not really an issue. But I found when I got offers to get involved in working harder with less freedom in a team environment it took any enjoyment out of it for me and I'd have been much richer but far less happy and quite possibly would have jumped out an office window at some point.

 

[BooBoosHelix]

I played online 6max nl sh up to nl1k (1000$ buy in) and considering all the times I tilted away 70 stacks after 6 months of hard grinding probably would have been better off taking a low pay job while I studied software engineering. If I could relieve my 20s again I’d never even start poker. Final straw for me was when my roommate spend 20 hours writing a kindle book on how to get a six pack and never moved a finger on this project again and made more than me and i probably spent thousands of hours on poker.
Tought me a lot about avoiding high paying jobs and generating passive income. You don’t always have to work hard to make it. Working smart often also will suffice.

 

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[WJK]

I played online 6max nl sh up to nl1k (1000$ buy in) and considering all the times I tilted away 70 stacks after 6 months of hard grinding probably would have been better off taking a low pay job while I studied software engineering. If I could relieve my 20s again I’d never even start poker. Final straw for me was when my roommate spend 20 hours writing a kindle book on how to get a six pack and never moved a finger on this project again and made more than me and i probably spent thousands of hours on poker.
Tought me a lot about avoiding high paying jobs and generating passive income. You don’t always have to work hard to make it. Working smart often also will suffice.

I've been in real estate for 45 years. I play the odds all the time with real money. Yes, sometimes I lose. But, I never play the game when the odds are against me. And spend a lot of my time upping my odds so the chances of me winning are a lot more favorable. That's one way that I decide where to put my time and money. I usually will make the deal with a reasonable profit margin and less risk.

I only make high-risk deals when my losses are totally limited to the money that I can afford to lose -- and the upside is huge -- making it worth the risk. I call those my pie-in-sky investments. And I usually lose my whole nut on them. But, when I win, I win big. But again, even those must have the odds in my favor.

For a starting off point in your thinking -- I read a study on cab drivers a long time ago -- before Uber and such. There were two basic camps of thinking. There were the guys who line up at the airport to get the big fares from the businessmen who were in hurry to get to their destinations. Those cabbies would wait in line for hours for that big fare. Then there were the other guys who did a bunch of short hauls. They were busy all day, running their meters while picking people up and dropping them off. The study concluded that the guys sitting at the airport took home less money at the end of the day.

Now, if you take that truism from the cabbies, and you take it a step further, maybe there's a way to turn the odds more in your favor? The cabbies doing the short hauls could find a way to keep busy all day by developing their own groups of riders who would make appointments to be picked up and dropped off. And that cabbie could offer premium services -- like having their favorite cup of coffee waiting for the customer in the cab.

There are a hundred ways to skin this cat. You need to use your experience to figure out another way to make your living.

 

[Olimac21]

I am very curious to see if someone in the forum has experience making money with betting or playing poker online.

By coincidence today I found a course on tennis trade and although I do not plan to do this full time or imagine this will turn me into a millonaire, I have heard stories of people making a decent amount of money with bets in sports like football, basketball and tennis.

About poker I have no idea how much you can make without breaking your neck playing or taking too much risk for a positive outcome

 

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[Olimac21]

You can check Betfair Exchange (not Betfair regular sports betting).

For example, you BACK (buy) odd when it's 1,12 and LAY (sell) when it's 1,90 for example...and you can do it other way around. This is live exchange (betting). You can choose any sport you like. One of the most popular is UK horse racing.

I know people making $60k per tennis match or $3k per horse race.

You can trade in a way to get yourself in the position you win no matter who wins the race/match.

But for good trading you will need a 3rd party software that is approved by Betfair (one of the biggest betting company in the world).

Here is a good video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lvuk-wgZ8I

This is exactly what I was looking for, thanks mate!

 

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[Olimac21]

I played online poker for several years, from 2008 on I think. You can start out with very little investment and work your way up to higher stakes.

The micro stakes (where you sit down at the table with $2) are very easy, but obviously with only cents at stake, you won't exactly clear a month's rent there. The higher limits ($100 and up) are much tougher and you will face competition with years of experience.

Most important "skill" to have is discipline. You can loose an evening's winnings in a minute of frustrated tilting.

Two good resources on the subject are 2+2 and PS:
Two Plus Two Poker Forum - Poker Strategy Forums
Online Poker Strategy School - PokerStrategy.com

Thank you! Do you have any books recommendations to get started?

 

[msufan]

Yes, skill gaming and advantage gaming have been a $250K+ side income for me over the past 17 years (so only about $15K/year). It can definitely be done!

 

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[LittleMissFancy]

Yes, skill gaming and advantage gaming have been a $250K+ side income for me over the past 17 years (so only about $15K/year). It can definitely be done!

Would you be interested in sharing more about your experience doing this? I'm super intrigued!