less headache, less money what do you think?

[nomadjanet]

Last week after our car biz trip we went to a Plumbing biz peer group meeting. This is a get together of business people involved in an industry organization we belong to. We stop by one of the business locations and are treated to a day in the life of the business. We see all the departments, interview the main players, ask questions about the process and generally take away the good the bad & the ugly from that business. There were people in our group that were very small mom & pop shops with gross sales less than 200k and people in our group that had 34 employees and sold gross over 4mil. So what did we see and learn.
1. All the bench marks you learn don’t mean anything if you choose to do it a different way.
2. The economy of scale is a myth sometimes.
3. Would you rather have 10% of 4 mil or 20% of 1.5 mil?
4. What if the 10% of 4 mil required the headache of 32 employees and the 20% of 1.5 mil required the headache of 10 employees?
5. Do you need bells & whistles to make you feel good or to make your employees & clients feel good?
6. What makes your business sustainable?
7. What makes your business something someone would want to buy?

We have been interviewed by people claiming to want to buy our business several times. When it came right down to the nity-gritty, they tell us that our business model is too small and too simple. That they want more trucks, selling fewer goods per truck making less profit. This is what we saw when we went to the peer group meeting. They have a nice business model, it is what they are comfortable with but I wonder why 400k a year with 32 whining babies is better than 300k a year with only 10 whining babies? What do you think? If it was your business what would you prefer?
Janet

 

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[Sid23]

Isn't 20% of $1.5M = $300k? jk

rep points for a great post. ++

everything is trade-offs and this is a good example that one man's pleasure may be another man's pain...

I think it depends. If I had a business that I wasn't planning to sell, I would take the $300k a year and less employees.

If I was planning to build a business to eventually be sold, I would opt for option #1.

 

[Peter2]

I wonder why 400k a year with 32 whining babies is better than 300k a year with only 10 whining babies? What do you think? If it was your business what would you prefer?
Janet

If 5 out of the 32 people would leave the other company, it would not be a huge problem. The other employees could pick up most of the extra work load, and profits would not be drastically reduced.

If 5 of your 10 people would leave, your company would be cut in half and probably in serious trouble.

It's easy to scale your business. Why don't you grow to 100+ employees?

 

[Russ H]

Janet-

I used to make the same arguement.

Only it was for one person (me) with a bunch of subcontractors.

I was making $300-500K/year-- and would never be able to attain that level of $$$ if I brought on others.

Thing was, my biz was *me*. Not very salable.

Peter2 is right-- scale it up, and you have something salable.

You are the one who has discovered the incredible efficiency of systems.

You just need to take it up a few notches.

-Russ H. (who went from 0 employees, to 10 now, and is scaling towards 25 within the next 3 years, at which point our biz will be worth in excess of $9.6M).

 

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[andviv]

great topic.

They way I see it... if I am buying I rather buy the one with more employees and then get into improving the revenue per employee, then sell or maintain, depending on needs.

 

[nomadjanet]

OK so I get your thoughts, I am not making arguments I am thinking out what is next thing to do or not to do.
We have no subs we actually have 5 field workers & 2 office workers, not 10 employees.
The problem is that this is a service business; they have 3 times the people we have in the field this is great as it increases production.
They have 7 times the people we have in the office. I have two girls who run our office; they have 15 girls for 15 and plumbers this is no joke.
They also have two "service managers" part field part office and two warehouse people. While I concede that the service managers are probably needed due to the scale of the company, I can't see how 15 office workers are needed.
As far as increasing productivity & charging more, they are at the high end of the market for their area, just as we are.
I understand scalable and I agree we should be growing if we want to sell. We just have not achieved the share of the market that would allow us to jump up there. Being able to run a business with systems & not have to be there to hold your people's hand does not mean I have found a way to conquer the market & the marketing beast we all fight. When the masses want service at their home, they want cheap. They might drive a hummer & eat at Ruth Crisp but they want the guy that fixes their faucet to charge $50.00 when it should be $200.00. We are trying to be Foley's in a Wal-Mart market.
So we have a choice to we keep plugging away, trying to educate our market as to the value of better, cleaner, faster, more reliable, honest service; or do we Wal-Mart out, hire dregs do what we can when we can and grow big? Would we be valuable to a buyer because we were big if we were only marginally profitable?
The people at our peer meeting happen to be located in a very upscale area, they have a different market than we do, and maybe that is our problem? Lots of things to think about, taking off to go fishing will think on the drive.

 

[nomadjanet]

Ok business broker calls and says he has a client that is interested in our business. We don't have a contract with this broker so he is looking to do a one time rep deal with us to present to this client. I tell him, the last time you talked to us you were telling us we could only get about 1/2mil for our company. We are making a discretionary income of 300k a year and we can leave & travel & have fun while we make it, why would we sell for that price. He says well, I think this buyer would pay about 3/4mil but he would want you to carry the purchase "so he can be sure it really can produce that much revenue". So we are going to sell, carry the purchase and if he changes things & runs it into the ground, then it's our fault and we don't get paid. Does that sound like a good deal to you? The clincher is when he tells me who the buyer is "a personal friend of his", the guy owns a hugh plumbing company that is construction oriented, does not have a service division (we are strictly a service company). So a guy who owns a 20million dollar company wants me to sell to him at a bargain price and front the deal for him to start a repair division. Does it sound like a good deal now? Now, this guy is close to us and if he starts a repair division he will have lots of resources to compete against us so that's an additional issue. Lots of questions & things to think about.
Janet

 

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[Russ H]

Janet-

We had a discussion thread here about "cater to the masses, eat with the classes" and "cater to the classes, eat with the masses".

The concept being that the more you offer a commodity to LOTS of people, the bigger your market and the more potential $$ you can make.

Me, I love the high end. Less work, cooler people, and I get to play with such *great* toys! (high enders are early adopters).

I spent 20 years having fun with that crowd. Made a decent living (at the end I was making about 200K+/yr, working about 15 hrs/wk).

Switched careers and who I catered to exactly 4 years ago this week.

Now I work 80 hour weeks and get paid NOTHING (gotta love start ups! )

In my previous life, my average sales per individual ran over $100,000 per customer.

Nowadays, they run about $500 per couple.

Before, I had 3-10 customers a year that I worked with (some were clients from previous years).

These days, we work with thousands of people each year (hundreds each month!).

I still love what I do, even though I miss the high end.

And in a few years, I'm gonna love it even more.*

-Russ H.

* When we cash out w/$5M and start living on our "fixed income" of $250,000/year. :banana:

 

[venom]

If I was buying your business I would tell you there were tons of things wrong too !!
Hey if I can convince yas to sell at a bargain why not ?

You make it sound like your sales would stay the same if you added more trucks. Can I ask why ?
I do get that if you only have so many sales or renters adding more rooms wouldnt add any money to the bottom line . Yet if you dont have those rooms where the room for growth ?
Rob

 

[nomadjanet]

If 5 out of the 32 people would leave the other company, it would not be a huge problem. The other employees could pick up most of the extra work load, and profits would not be drastically reduced.

If 5 of your 10 people would leave, your company would be cut in half and probably in serious trouble.

It's easy to scale your business. Why don't you grow to 100+ employees?

Thanks for bringing this point of view, I can see where someone not in our busines would think this. If I were buying a plumbing business, I would be looking to gain the client base not necessarily the employees. If I am already in the plumbing busiess I have employees I may be able to use some new employees but if not, I can always use more clients, more sales. But lack of employees is another issue that may turn people off.

 

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[nomadjanet]

If I was buying your business I would tell you there were tons of things wrong too !!
Hey if I can convince yas to sell at a bargain why not ?

You make it sound like your sales would stay the same if you added more trucks. Can I ask why ?
I do get that if you only have so many sales or renters adding more rooms wouldnt add any money to the bottom line . Yet if you dont have those rooms where the room for growth ?
Rob

No it's just that as a rule of thumb you add more truck only when:
1. You are losing more than 2 calls a day, more than 3 days a week to over booking.
2. You are taking on a new client contract that demands at least 3 additional calls a day at least 3 days a week.

Putting on another truck does not necessarily mean it will be rolling. Lots of service companies have 10 trucks and 5 are sitting most of the time. This is why they are not profitable. The average plumbing company has a profit of only 6%; they are paying the overhead for 10 trucks and additional employees when they only have enough work for 5 trucks. So we run it tight; less employees; less overhead; more profit. As an owner this is the model I prefer, but I see it from the point of view you guys are giving me, if I put on two more tech’s to waste time and an extra two truck payments, and maybe an additional office person for some redundant back up in the office my nice profit level would go away.
We are thinking of a new model planning new things to increase sales while keeping profitability high. We are also going to do some extra things that will make our life easier so even if we don’t sell the business.
Janet

 

[randallg99]

Many people lose sight of the bottom line and from what I am reading, Janet appears to keep profitability the main focus which is something many biz owners lose sight of.

It is obviously important not only to remain profitable in the business, but to also be well prepared if and when a slowdown occurs... and companies best prepared for weathering the storms are companies that have the least amount of "fat" by keeping expenses low. By the same token, it is extremely important to increase productivity per employee which offsets those excessive expenses.

People in business tend to get carried away for whatever reasons: misplaced priorities, egos, lack of skills, etc... and as a result, the main focus of the business wrongfully takes a back seat to other things

A couple of things we do in our businesses that helps us gauge our expenses and returns on the expenses... 1) we justify the expense... it must provide a real return. Even toner for copy machines must be justified... are the copies just for the hell of it? or do they provide a real return? these bastards costs 1000's of dollars per year.... but in our case, they are needed. 2) we dissect the expenses. every line item on the detailed P&L is evaluated at least once a year. Can that copy toner be shopped for better pricing? We have gotten creative with marketing techniques with direct mail and hand delivering items, referrals, etc...

Ultimately, to answer questions #3 and 4, I would rather have 10% profit of 4mil regardless of how many employees there are. There is little reason to absorb more headaches if the business systems are working.... if there are few headaches at 1 mil, then there should be only a proportionate amount of headaches at 4mil of which should be absorbed by hired help.

Jumping around a bit: I recently had problems with an employee and had to fire him just so that I could implement the system the way I needed it to work... the systems that I trained the one new person with was specifically designed to create more efficiency for the company, reduce headaches and ultimately increase my profits. My profits will be realized because more of my time will be spent with marketing and developing more systems instead of operations. I am now making preparations to replace another employee to provide similar results in a different department and location.

Another point: Janet said: >>>The economy of scale is a myth sometimes.<<<

My response is that I found this out the hard way. Sometimes extra expenses are incurred as a result of higher revenues. The ratio between expenses and profits is truly a dynamic that is not well understood by most biz owners and for many years, I was guilty of not understanding it myself. Now that I am aware of this ratio, I have made clearer decisions... using an oversimplified example:

If you reduce your expenses by only 10%, you just may possibly double your profits... take for example, all of the costs including gas, insurance, supplies, etc.... and they added up to 300k and if your end of year profit was 30k. A 10% reduction in expenses equals an extra 30k of profit...

 

[Russ H]

Janet-

(time for some tough love . . . )

Stop looking at this as a waste of time, money and resources.

This is a serious problem for you to get over.

When everyone around him said "I can't afford this", richdad said, "How can I afford this?"

I'd suggest you approach this the same way.

How can you bring on trucks and keep profitability?

Answer: You need SUBSTANTIALLY more business.

How can you manage twice as many employees/work?

Answer: You need to find a manager who is as good-- or BETTER-- than you are at running things.

That's what we've done.

We've sat in on meetings w/other innkeepers for *years*, hearing them complain about how they can't bring on more staff, how they can't spend money on more advertising, and how they can't raise their occupancy.

Bear in mind, when you have a B&B, you have a limited amount of resources (rooms). Unless you want to bite the big bullet and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, you are left trying to figure out how to make incremental improvements.

Back to our colleagues:

Their B&Bs will sell for *millions* less than ours (no exageration).

They will still make money-- but not nearly as much as we do when we sell.

When we took over the B&B, it had 16% occupancy in January (the slowest season). It had 45% occupancy overall (we thought). Turns out it had about 42% occupancy, since the previous owner was renting out 2 rooms in his house (half a mile away) during the busy season. He just added that revenue to his books, making things *look* more profitable.

It took us 2 years to figure that out (!).

This past year, our January occupancy was ~65%. Occupancy for the entire year is just about *double* what it was when we bought the inn.

And revenues are $300K higher (we went from $400K to $700K in 3 years, '03-'06).

It's important to note that we did this not only without the guest rooms in our own house, but with one less room-- we went from 10 rooms down to 9 soon after we took over the inn (lost it when the foundation was replaced).

So we've increased revenues by 75% while losing 10% of our resources.

******

You could do the same.

******

Fact is, YOU were the inspiration for our doing this.

Your comments on RD.com about setting up systems got us on the right track to taking our business from an "S" (both of us working 80 hours/week) to more of a "B" (both of us working less than 5 hours/week).

******

It's important to note that I came from a *different* business (home electronics) that is historically undercapitalized and has inventory that goes out of style quickly. Imagine buying a plumbing fixture that, 6 months later, is worth HALF of what you paid for it-- and 12 months later has almost no value at all!

I looked at trying to "ramp up" my electronics S business, but that was before I'd seen the value of doing systems.

What I decided to do instead was use my S business as a cash generator to fund other businesses/investments. I got very efficient: Instead of spending those 80 hour weeks to build the business, I worked about 10-15 hours/week and generated a LOT of cash (which I then used to fund investments).

I used the extra time I had to learn about and work on the investments.

From your other posts, it sounds like you've been doing the same thing (using your business to generate $$$ for other investments, and using the free time to develop those investments).

There's no shame in admitting that your business has little or no value to someone else, and using it to fund hundreds of thousands of dollars of outside investments.

Worked for me.

Worked great, actually.

******

Here's the summary:

1. Identify the feelings that are preventing you from taking your business to the next level. Your words betray how you feel (whining babies, headaches, etc). Clearly, you don't like managing employees (neither do I).

2. Decide what you want most: To build your business up to sell it, or to use it as a cash-generator for other projects. No harm in either-- but totally different goals.

3. Do it.

*******

-Russ H.

 

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[Diane Kennedy]

This is an interesting thread to me because I agree with every single post on it...even though they might contradict.

Janet, I have seen small business that are profitable and work turn into cash gobbling monsters when the owner tried to scale the business. Some of the time it occurred because the owner stepped away too fast. But I also saw times when the owner just flat missed the daily part of the job and self-sabotaged. Actually, I've seen that more than ever lately with some big names imploding as they couldn't quit tinkering with the systems and people.

There is a part in what Russ said about working with wealthy clients that resonated for me as well. In fact, after 4 years of not doing individual tax strategies, I started a few months ago doing them again. I can't believe how much happier I am. And it is total self-employed work. There is a residual model built into it, so it's not directly tied into me working - but it largely revolves around me working.

I think maybe for me I needed and missed the access to highly successful entrepreneurs and investors. As a CPA, I have an inside track because there are a lot of people who like to BS about what they do and how they do it, but unless you see the financials, you never really know. I really do get to see what works and what doesn't.

The one lesson I'm getting right now from the highly successful entrepreneurs (I'm defining those as people with net income of over $1 mill per year) is that they have ONE thing they do. They have multiple businesses that support different aspects of that one thing. When a business is going well, they look at each element of it - vendors, customers, hidden assets - and then see how they can create another stream of income off of it. That's a different way of creating a B Business, rather than just growing the same model of business.

By the way, PeterS, I totally agree with your post as well. If you have a working system, 100 employees is a lot safer than 10. And, if Janet went that route, she couldn't handle 100 whiny employees, so it would force her to find another solution for those whiny people. (I bet there are probably one or two troublemakers who stir everyone else up and if you got rid of them, your troubles would drop expotentially.)

Hope this rambling post made sense. It's an important question and subject and I don't have the answer figured out for me yet.

 

[mglshark]

As a owner in the past of large and small businesses everybody's concern is correct!

Large work force has to be train via fast food chain method - one person cooks, another to take orders, another to wrap & bag, etc. Dumb down system! Worker quits / fired / leaves no big deal, another can be train quickly and brought online. Without a system in place it would quickly become a headache for the owners! Still, less profit per worker but make it up on volume of business. As a buyer I can put in / improve a system raising profits.

Small number of workers if hired & train right means little turnover and much more profit and less headaches. So if I own the business I want this model vs the large workforce - more free time and sleep at night!

People sell businesses when they are in personnel crisis, trouble or flat burnt out. Either way a good business making good profit rarely pops up for sale. Buyer wants to know the real reason why you are selling!

Buyer is thinking less risk in large format with better management expanding the market, seller is thinking a small niche, bigger profits, less hassle. Of course buyer wants you to carry paper as a safety net, so if they mess up and bail out you are stuck. You can structure the deal so you stay involved (for a fee) as business is turn over for 3 - 6 months (even a year) will full access to the books till the loan is paid off. Put in the agreement if the numbers (profit / sales) fall a certain amount you can take it back over, kick the buyer out and save the business. Buyer loses all money at that point just like a lease option.

Selling businesses are hard, in my field (medical) usually something goes wrong and both buyer / seller end up in ligation, forcing a settlement down a road. Nobody but the lawyers win! Amazing, I have seen dozen of practices sold and rarely do they work out without the suits getting involved!

I chose to change my practice and not bother selling it because it is such a hassle and money suck. Most practices like most businesses are personality driven, not system drive, so you have to find a buyer that fits what you built. Not easy! If they mis-match they will kill your business overnight and sue you because of it!

Finally you can downsized the business part time, raise fees, work only with your existing client list and just work on other things till you close the doors when it runs out of steam. Or you can clone your system and sell it as a franchise or you as a coach as well.


mglshark

 

[Diane Kennedy]

Thanks for the post mglshark. You gave me something new to think about with my CPA practice (often similar issues to a Med practice.)

Rep++

 

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[venom]

So you are tracking the people you turn away because a truck isnt available
and when a truck sits idle ?

We just had a discussion about this at the hospital. They complain that we dont have enough patients. Yet because we dont have enough patients we dont have enough staffing or beds available if we got more patients....

Its also similar to how my rentals are . We have reached a point were its a little uncomfortable at times. Adding more homes may make sense financially down the road but it would make for many bumps right now. Not sure what we will do either.
Rob

 

[AroundTheWorld]

I think that Russ is on the road to the heart of it when he talks about what you want to do with your business... what does it mean for you?

It is a means to an end or is it the end?
Is it adding to or taking away from your quality of life?
Is it simply providing cash for your invesments, or is it your investment?

Your answer to these questions dictates what to do next...

From a pure, business standpoint... growing makes sense, because of all the things others have mentioned in this thread. However - business is never just business to the owners. So many other "things" will factor into a decision... goals, quality of life, other resources, etc.

Hubby and I were just having a similar conversation today... We have both business and REI activities. One is so much more "fun" to us than the other. I think that most people will find skills, knowledge and interest in B or in I - but not often in both. Don't go against the grain.

 

[nomadjanet]

So you are tracking the people you turn away because a truck isnt available
and when a truck sits idle ?

We just had a discussion about this at the hospital. They complain that we dont have enough patients. Yet because we dont have enough patients we dont have enough staffing or beds available if we got more patients....

Its also similar to how my rentals are . We have reached a point were its a little uncomfortable at times. Adding more homes may make sense financially down the road but it would make for many bumps right now. Not sure what we will do either.
Rob

Yes we track every call that comes in booked, or lost that is part of the process. We track every call closed on the phone and in the field. We have the close ratio and the productivty ratio of every technician tracked. This is part of our systems in place.

 

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[nomadjanet]

I think that Russ is on the road to the heart of it when he talks about what you want to do with your business... what does it mean for you?

It is a means to an end or is it the end?
Is it adding to or taking away from your quality of life?
Is it simply providing cash for your invesments, or is it your investment?

Your answer to these questions dictates what to do next...

From a pure, business standpoint... growing makes sense, because of all the things others have mentioned in this thread. However - business is never just business to the owners. So many other "things" will factor into a decision... goals, quality of life, other resources, etc.

Hubby and I were just having a similar conversation today... We have both business and REI activities. One is so much more "fun" to us than the other. I think that most people will find skills, knowledge and interest in B or in I - but not often in both. Don't go against the grain.

This is a good question, in reality; the business is bread and butter money, a means to our investments. I believe it does not reduce our quality of life, it adds to it. We no longer do any physical work in the business. The average rate of production in a service company is 50%, ours is 85%.
The problem is that my Husband is a micro manager, he has a hard time with letting go and letting the systems work. So it bothers him and therefore takes away from the quality of his life. When we are traveling he does not worry about the company but as soon as we hit town he starts fixating on things. It is detrimental to the company, he goes to the shop and starts micro managing minor things and slows down the system.
There are aspects to our service business that I enjoy; planning, marketing & the participation in the professional organizations related to the business are fun for me. I don't think there is anything left in the business that he enjoys.
We have no financial problems, this business is productive & profitable, and he is just tired of thinking about it, and can't turn it off so he thinks of selling. I am OK with running it without him; he is not OK with me doing it that way. We will see how it works out. I am always learning & changing things to improve the systems.
Ten years ago, we were the business; we could not take a day off much less a vacation. Now we travel more than half the month usually and the business goes on and makes money and makes profit. I know some of you guys think that if your business does not sell for 10mil it’s a failure but I don’t feel this way. Our business has very few hard assets, we sell only service. If we sold our business they would be buying our client list and our good will. How much would your business be worth without hard assets, without real estate, only on client list and good will?
An average residential client calls a plumber once every 2 years. An average repair plumber completes 1000 service calls a year. Using these industry averages it takes 2000 clients to support 1 plumber for one year. To run 10 trucks you need an active client data base of 20000 clients, we are not there. We are always mining for new clients and we have a program to retain existing clients. When new programs to gain cliental come along we implement them as soon as we can set up the system. We are bringing out a new system this week that we hope will increase retention and more frequent service. In spite of all these plans, people only call a plumber when they need one.
Janet

 

[andviv]

The problem is that my Husband is a micro manager, he has a hard time with letting go and letting the systems work. So it bothers him and therefore takes away from the quality of his life. When we are traveling he does not worry about the company but as soon as we hit town he starts fixating on things. It is detrimental to the company, he goes to the shop and starts micro managing minor things and slows down the system.

I can see why he thinks of selling. I think he probably misses the startup years... when he was actually useful for the company. Now he is not needed anymore, he already brought the baby to adulthood. I think it is the same feeling parent have when they have to let their young adult children make their own decisions. They are now useless.

There are aspects to our service business that I enjoy; planning, marketing & the participation in the professional organizations related to the business are fun for me. I don't think there is anything left in the business that he enjoys.

Again, same pattern in his feelings.

We have no financial problems, this business is productive & profitable, and he is just tiered of thinking about it, and can't turn it off so he thinks of selling.

I am OK with running it without him; he is not OK with me doing it that way.

Have you thought of him creating a new business? starting a brand new company where he can go back to be 'the one' running the show? Is there any other type of interest he's got as a business idea? You could 'buy' him out... meaning, you take care of the existing business while he focuses in the new endeavor.

Our business has very few hard assets, we sell only service. If we sold our business they would be buying our client list and our good will. How much would your business be worth without hard assets, without real estate, only on client list and good will?

Wrong, IMHO!!!!!
Your customers and good will are very valuable.
I can think of a simple analogy... internet businesses where the website provides a service. When you think about it, these companies are nothing more than a few servers (a piece of hardware at the end, not that expensive these days) and traffic. The traffic generated by their customers and the good will. And in many occasions they sell for millions. Why? Cause they have what any business needs... repeating customers. You also have the same. That is valuable, in my opinion. An thoe internet guys in here, please correct me if I am wrong with my analogy. I am not an expert in businesses.

 

[nomadjanet]

Have you thought of him creating a new business? starting a brand new company where he can go back to be 'the one' running the show? Is there any other type of interest he's got as a business idea? You could 'buy' him out... meaning, you take care of the existing business while he focuses in the new endeavor.

Wrong, IMHO!!!!!
Your customers and good will are very valuable.
I can think of a simple analogy... internet businesses where the website provides a service. When you think about it, these companies are nothing more than a few servers (a piece of hardware at the end, not that expensive these days) and traffic. The traffic generated by their customers and the good will. And in many occasions they sell for millions. Why? Cause they have what any business needs... repeating customers. You also have the same. That is valuable, in my opinion. An thoe internet guys in here, please correct me if I am wrong with my analogy. I am not an expert in businesses.

We have started another business for him, and he enjoys that but it is not busy enough to keep him away completely.

what is IMHO?
I know that our clients and good will are valuable, I am just asking a question. Lots of people have businesses that are based on real estate value or hard asset value. They look at a business not based on those items and do not see the value.
Janet

 

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[Russ H]

IMHO= In my humble opinion

Janet, I think you're spot on re the value of your business.

Same thing w/mine-- it's all based on # of customers.

You need *tens of thousands* locally to have most local businesses worth something (and hundreds of thousands or millions for an internet biz to be worth something).

We paid $50,000 for the "good will" on the B&B we bought.

We overpaid, given what the owner's executor did (pulled all of the business records and wouldn't give them to us).

We paid $1.3M for the RE/business, and $50K for the customer base/goodwill.

So yes, you're correct-- without *you*, the biz is not worth nearly as much.

Seems like a good reason to develop things that *are* worth something.

You just need to figure out what!

-Russ H.