Is importing from China unethical?

[Jiam30]

Hi!

We've all heard about bad working conditions in some Chinese factories. You know: 13 hours shifts, children employees, crowded dorms in the factory, suicides, controlled "free" time ...

Is it something you take into account when you choose your manufacturer? Can importing from China be unethical?

I think some people on this forum have visited their supplier's factory, is checking that employees are "humanly" treated a goal of the trip? (I guess they won't advertise their bad practices on their Alibaba listing)

PS: I'm not pointing fingers. Just curious about your opinion.

 

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[Ninjakid]

I wouldn't buy directly from a factory that was treating employees poorly.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

We've all heard about bad working conditions in some Chinese factories. You know: 13 hours shifts, children employees, crowded dorms in the factory, suicides, controlled "free" time ...

I visited my factories in China. And the conditions were good.

I don't know how it was back in the day, but from what I saw, people were being treated the same that they'd be treated in America.

Also, to put things into perspective: The average Chinese factory worker makes $28 per day. They usually work 6 days a week. 1 USD = 6.5 RMB. And the purchasing power for food, clothing, housing etc. typically follows that conversion. So at $28 x 6.5 x 6 = 1,092 per week.

If a factory worker in America was making $1,092 a week in the U.S., then I would think they're getting paid very well. Seeing as the Chinese are making that much, I have no ethical dilemma with sending them business.

The reason prices are cheap is not because of bad working conditions, but because of international market inefficiencies. By giving them your money, you're working towards fixing those inefficiencies, and also providing American (in your case, French) citizens with a valuable product that otherwise would not exist. Everyone wins. The factory workers win. The factory owners win. You win. And the person saving money on buying your goods wins.

So to summarize: is it ethical to buy from China? Yes. And if anything, it's unethical to not pursue a legal business that can improve the lives of thousands of others.

 

[juan917]

F*ck yes. am i doing it? F*ck yes.

Update: just read the above comment. I will sleep on it and see how i feel tomorrow.

 

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[juan917]

it F*cks the currencies up. and in return, we are getting F*cked. but then those Asian children go to America and spend their money here(I met a South Korean at a bar with her friends this weekend, it is very apparent that they love American culture). So for those reasons, I am willing to do business with China.

Edit : Did not mention she goes to a private american college, and because she is a foreigner, she has to pay CASH (at least thats how i understand the rules to be)

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

I met a South Korean at a bar ... So for those reasons, I am willing to do business with China.

 

[juan917]

hahaha i am not sure how to take that

 

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[OldFaithful]

I have had a similar internal struggle, but have come to see the benefit of specialized labor and international trade. Nothing will help the Chinese worker more than good ole Capitalism! Pure Capitalism, but not Crony Capitalism, will quickly remedy any unproductive work environments. I found this book to be particularly helpful. "How to be Profitable and Moral: A Rational Egoist Approach to Business" by Jaana Woiceshy. I also found the study of Austrian Economics to be enlightening, educational & awesome. See this site: https://mises.org

My problem has always been in the reverse, or so I've discovered. Here in the US we have regulations/fees/taxes on virtually everything (including wages) and that increases the cost of doing business here. Other countries often have lower regulatory costs, so business naturally tends to drift there and customers reward that with sales! In the past I disliked offshoring because it killed US jobs, but I've realized that the regulatory structure is what really needs to change. If the costs for doing business in the US come down, then jobs here can flourish too.

That being said, the labeling "Made in the USA" still has some cachet and you can sell to that market.

 

[CycleGuy]

It's all about perspective. @AgainstAllOdds hit it out of the park explaining it.

 

[Castillo]

I visited my factories in China. And the conditions were good.

I don't know how it was back in the day, but from what I saw, people were being treated the same that they'd be treated in America.

Also, to put things into perspective: The average Chinese factory worker makes $28 per day. They usually work 6 days a week. 1 USD = 6.5 RMB. And the purchasing power for food, clothing, housing etc. typically follows that conversion. So at $28 x 6.5 x 6 = 1,092 per week.

If a factory worker in America was making $1,092 a week in the U.S., then I would think they're getting paid very well. Seeing as the Chinese are making that much, I have no ethical dilemma with sending them business.

The reason prices are cheap is not because of bad working conditions, but because of international market inefficiencies. By giving them your money, you're working towards fixing those inefficiencies, and also providing American (in your case, French) citizens with a valuable product that otherwise would not exist. Everyone wins. The factory workers win. The factory owners win. You win. And the person saving money on buying your goods wins.

So to summarize: is it ethical to buy from China? Yes. And if anything, it's unethical to not pursue a legal business that can improve the lives of thousands of others.

Though you mean well this isn't exactly how it works...

Take Philippines for example. You can't say, an average Filipino person in Philippines makes an average of $200USD/Month, This is equivelant to 9283 Pesos. This means that if they were in the US they would be making 9283 dollars USD, they're making good money.

That's not exactly how it all works. They're still making nothing. They're still poor. And they're still making F*ck all.

 

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[Vigilante]

Though you mean well this isn't exactly how it works...

Take Philippines for example. You can't say, an average Filipino person in Philippines makes an average of $200USD/Month, This is equivelant to 9283 Pesos. This means that if they were in the US they would be making 9283 dollars USD, they're making good money.

That's not exactly how it all works. They're still making nothing. They're still poor. And they're still making F*ck all.

Agreed, but you also have to apply a relative scale to it. It doesn't cost the same to live in Los Angeles as it does to live in Manila, and I am currently sending money to someone who lives in Manila at a much higher wage than she would earn locally. She's benefiting from capitalism. Wages need to be viewed as to how they would fare in a relative standard of living absent the wage. Factory work sucks. NO factory work sucks even more.

The average monthly wage is $279 in Manila. I am paying more than twice that wage for clerical work. She's making twice what her neighbors are making, thanks solely to capitalism, the world wide web, and her intelligence on how to tap into it.

 

[Castillo]

Agreed, but you also have to apply a relative scale to it. It doesn't cost the same to live in Los Angeles as it does to live in Manila, and I am currently sending money to someone who lives in Manila at a much higher wage than she would earn locally. She's benefiting from capitalism. Wages need to be viewed as to how they would fare in a relative standard of living absent the wage. Factory work sucks. NO factory work sucks even more.

The average monthly wage is $279 in Manila. I am paying more than twice that wage for clerical work. She's making twice what her neighbors are making, thanks solely to capitalism, the world wide web, and her intelligence on how to tap into it.

This is the math that makes more sense to me.. Relative to the average wage people make there this is good, I didn't think that him saying that an american worker making 1k a week is great, in comparison to what they're making in china

 

[Vigilante]

This is the math that makes more sense to me.. Relative to the average wage people make there this is good, I didn't think that him saying that an american worker making 1k a week is great, in comparison to what they're making in china

I think I boost the living conditions of the people I employ in Asia and the Philippines compared to where they would be without us. Longer term bigger picture then is to take some of that money generated and undergird humanitarian relief efforts in places like Haiti and elsewhere. One person can't solve the larger issues raised in the OP, but one person or one company ---or one FORUM ---absolutely CAN have an impact in the lives of individuals across the globe.

 

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[Castillo]

I think I boost the living conditions of the people I employ in Asia and the Philippines compared to where they would be without us. Longer term bigger picture then is to take some of that money generated and undergird humanitarian relief efforts in places like Haiti and elsewhere. One person can't solve the larger issues raised in the OP, but one person or one company ---or one FORUM ---absolutely CAN have an impact in the lives of individuals across the globe.

Great point!! Forum with 30k people definitely could affect it

 

[Tom.V]

I think I boost the living conditions of the people I employ in Asia and the Philippines compared to where they would be without us. Longer term bigger picture then is to take some of that money generated and undergird humanitarian relief efforts in places like Haiti and elsewhere. One person can't solve the larger issues raised in the OP, but one person or one company ---or one FORUM ---absolutely CAN have an impact in the lives of individuals across the globe.

Completely agree. Back when I had a team of workers in the Philippines these were my exact same sentiments. At the end of the day, you are helping the people who work for you live a more prosperous life. Who can really talk down on that?

 

[Jon L]

For some perspective on how you can live in other countries on a 'poverty level wage:'

I pay my sales rep $10/hr plus commission. He lives in Pakistan where the average monthly income is $200. He lives by-far better than I do with a full time driver and two maids that take care of his brand-new 4000 sq ft house that he built for $100,000. He had an electrical problem at his house recently (main breaker panel or something). I think the electrician that fixed it charge $20 (total!!!) for the repair.

 

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[OldFaithful]

I pay my sales rep $10/hr plus commission. He lives in Pakistan where the average monthly income is $200. He lives by-far better than I do with a full time driver and two maids that take care of his brand-new 4000 sq ft house that he built for $100,000. He had an electrical problem at his house recently (main breaker panel or something). I think the electrician that fixed it charge $20 (total!!!) for the repair.

Very well put!

 

[BlakeIC]

The controlled free times you hear about are from manufacturers like apple

 

[Phones]

For one, the image of the kids working in the factories is long gone, I'm not saying it doesn't happen somewhere in China, but it's not the norm. The factories I have visited are up to Western standards.

Second, even if there were the troubles/worries you mention, the only way to bring people out of poverty is by economic development, choosing not to trade would make the problem worse not better, and it is why China is where they are today. I knew they were well developed , but damn was I amazed... And I didn't visit just the "typical" cities, I went to a couple of places where I didn't see a foreigner in 30.000 people.

(the Chinese love BMW/Audi/Mercedes, the % of these cars was higher than most places I've been in Europe)

 

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[Deleted35442]

Hi!

We've all heard about bad working conditions in some Chinese factories. You know: 13 hours shifts, children employees, crowded dorms in the factory, suicides, controlled "free" time ...

Is it something you take into account when you choose your manufacturer? Can importing from China be unethical?

I think some people on this forum have visited their supplier's factory, is checking that employees are "humanly" treated a goal of the trip? (I guess they won't advertise their bad practices on their Alibaba listing)

PS: I'm not pointing fingers. Just curious about your opinion.

I think the photo @CycleGuy posted says it best. Entrepreneurs should go where the conditions are most conducive to them. You not wanting to partake in what you deem "immoral" use of labor won't stop a guy like me that will and gladly dwarf the market share you would have gotten otherwise. We can argue to no end on the morality of many things in the free market from higher education, where our tax dollars go, working for people you hate.

I'm going to Mexico soon. I'm choosing a supplier to fill tons of eComm orders. NAFTA says I can so I will. Then I'm going home and going to bed. End of.

 

[Jiam30]

Also, to put things into perspective: The average Chinese factory worker makes $28 per day. They usually work 6 days a week. 1 USD = 6.5 RMB. And the purchasing power for food, clothing, housing etc. typically follows that conversion. So at $28 x 6.5 x 6 = 1,092 per week.

As others stated, it's obviously not that easy to take the cost of living into account. I think economists use the "Purchasing power parity" (PPP) to normalize the GDP per inhabitant and to compare it to other countries.
China was at 13k$ GDP/inhabitant (PPP) in 2014 which is actually not that bad (figures for other countries: 54k$ for the US, 17k$ for Mexico, 7k$ for Marocco).

One person can't solve the larger issues raised in the OP, but one person or one company ---or one FORUM ---absolutely CAN have an impact in the lives of individuals across the globe.

I totally agree. However I guess it's easier to be generous the way you or Jon L do it (=paying a very good wage) when dealing with individuals (more flexibility, you can set your own rules) than when dealing with factories (more rigid).

On the other hand, I feel like the problems Chinese factories encounter now are close to the ones we had in Europe in the 19th century: long hours, children workers ... and well we went from this to acceptable work conditions nowadays. China might follow the same path (and perhaps some African countries will turn out to be the next "China").

 

[million$$$smile]

Well for the most part I disagree.

To some extent China's manufacturers have had to clean up their image of work in their factories but there is still tremendous working violations for many, many chinese workers. Just because an entrepreneur can buy an item for 1/10 of the price that could be manufactured here does not necessarily mean that it is morally right if it means that the working conditions of the factory worker raises red flags from many human rights labor organization in the world.

And no, the OP was not talking about employing VA's, who basically could be considered an entrepreneur in their own right. but about factory workers that yes, some are working 6-7 days a week up to 12-14 hours daily. And if you refuse to believe that it still isn't occurring in many factories in China and elsewhere than it must be because one is reading from the parent company's literature, that many times has been sanitized to the point of a complete coverup of reality.

http://www.facing-finance.org/en/database/cases/working-conditions-in-foxconn-factories-in-china/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/average-cost-factory-worker_n_1327413.html

I have a small tool manufacturing business.

Many, if not most manufacturers in our market have cheap imports made offshore. I refuse to do that. Yes, I understand that my niche market that we market to do expect USA made, but there is a far greater market I could most likely supply to if I sold a cheaper import. I am not necessarily saying that the products are not made as well as some US made products but I am saying that I do look at it morally and do not agree with the conditions that many factory workers are working. This and other factors such as seeing US factory workers losing their jobs overseas causes me to refuse to dilute my brand by manufacturing offshore.

And you know what? We are quickly becoming the brand to buy in our market that has been held by some extremely large 100 year old companies. We have developed a trust. They know we refuse to sell out.

This helps me to look in the mirror every day and not only smile about making a profit, but also by creating jobs for fellow Americans, that receive decent pay and work in good conditions. That to me is almost as great a reward.

Not only that but many of us know that the Chinese government controls the price of the Yuan by continually propping it up. It is not a free market in relation to the US dollar.

There are many people that are not looking for the cheapest priced product, but instead are looking for value, and not only in the product but by who and how it is made... They want to believe the story. They want to feel good about how it is made. They want to trust the quality.

They either want to believe the story or they want to buy only with price in mind and disregard the story behind the manufacturing (i.e. factory workers conditions) process.

There are many manufacturers in this country that will private brand. We just picked up a major manufacturer this week that is a household name in the trades industry.

Perhaps one day this company might have to manufacture a product offshore. But hopefully not on my watch.

I still remember when Sam Walton would brag that most products were USA made. Now he would roll over in his grave.

Now it is ONLY about profit...

End. of.

 

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[OldFaithful]

I still remember when Sam Walton would brag that most products were USA made. Now he would roll over in his grave.

I remember that too, and I even worked there as a youth, but it's one of the reasons I almost never go into a Walmart store today. They built the brand on that statement and once they achieved success, quietly changed the platform.

I am all about laissez-faire government & free market capitalism, where it can be found...but I'm 100% against deceiving your customer.

I stand by this though.

I've realized that the regulatory structure is what really needs to change. If the costs for doing business in the US come down, then jobs here can flourish too.

The problem is not overseas, the problem is here at home.