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My focus is on learning languages that will have job Stability over the next 5-10 years and skills that I can use for my entrepreneurial ventures.

So my purpose to learn coding is to

1. Get a stable job to provide decent lifestyle & cashflow while I work on my fast lane ventures

2.Possibly build apps/software to sell in the future

3. Maybe even start a development firm one day?

The thing that confuses me is I See dev jobs looking for people with HTML/CSS/JS and even more (php, node.js, react,angular)...

Should I just focus on the first three and then add on as I go?
Really depends if you even like Java. If you don't like it, you should be able to pick up another language fairly quickly. (Assuming you understand programming and can currently build things in java)

If so, I'd go to Ruby/Rails. Then pick up JS later on after you have a good understanding of Ruby/Rails.

Java isn't going anywhere, it'll likely always be used for android apps.
Ruby/Rails, 100% isn't going anywhere, you'll always be able to find work.
JS is good, but personally I used it for mobile apps (react native) and React only if I want to spice up a front end with a reactive component (something that changes often, can't wait on page refresh.)

That's as much as I can give you on the advice side since I'm not really sure the extent to which you know Java. Have you built anything functional and online with it that I can physically go test?
 
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lobo

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Really depends if you even like Java. If you don't like it, you should be able to pick up another language fairly quickly. (Assuming you understand programming and can currently build things in java)

If so, I'd go to Ruby/Rails. Then pick up JS later on after you have a good understanding of Ruby/Rails.

Java isn't going anywhere, it'll likely always be used for android apps.
Ruby/Rails, 100% isn't going anywhere, you'll always be able to find work.
JS is good, but personally I used it for mobile apps (react native) and React only if I want to spice up a front end with a reactive component (something that changes often, can't wait on page refresh.)

That's as much as I can give you on the advice side since I'm not really sure the extent to which you know Java. Have you built anything functional and online with it that I can physically go test?

oh no, I’m still in the baby stages of Web development. I’m starting to get pretty good with HTML/CSS but my JavaScript knowledge is maybe 2/10. Nowhere near being able to build something with it yet. Was going to focus on it after I get all of the HTML/CSS skills down.
 

GrayCode

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oh no, I’m still in the baby stages of Web development. I’m starting to get pretty good with HTML/CSS but my JavaScript knowledge is maybe 2/10. Nowhere near being able to build something with it yet. Was going to focus on it after I get all of the HTML/CSS skills down.
Slightly confused. I think we're talking about 2 different languages.

There's Java and then there is Javascript.
 

spreng

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this is awesome, congrats! Inspiring really, i might look into committing to learning RoR because of this. Keep up the good work.
 

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this is awesome, congrats! Inspiring really, i might look into committing to learning RoR because of this. Keep up the good work.
Thank you.

Congrats man, doing the same thing. It's a sweet sweet path.
Thanks, interested to see what you're working on, got a thread somewhere?

RoR is on it's way out, learn Rust or TypeScript
Disagree. We ought to avoid saying things like X is on it's way out as if all RoR will fall off the face of the earth and all libraries and compilers will vanish. It's just not the case. It leads to indecision by beginners, due to people being religious about their languages. Neither here nor there, can agree to disagree.
 

HelpAndProsper

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I'm a Front End Developer in the Boston area.....I get constant job offers from recruiters. There are no shortcuts to learning to code....Most people are not willing to put in the work.

On the Front End, start with HTML/CSS/Vanilla JavaScript.....

Don't try to jump into Frameworks too soon because once you're hired, your employer will soon find out that you don't know JACK about JavaScript when you have to debug something in a Framework like Vue, React or Angular.

Personally, I keep getting hired for WordPress roles because I've been doing it for years. To be a good WP developer, you should know HTML/CSS/PHP and JS.....

Front End is very tough because there are a lot of variables(screen sizes, browsers, etc.)....

CSS is a never-ending process of learning.....It's very hard to find someone who is GREAT at CSS.....

To learn, build very small, simple projects, such as:
calculator app
to do list
a simple tic tac to game

Learn how to make things change or move on a page when you click something.....

Personally, I'm trying to build my own business right now and I'd only take a job right now if they pay me over 120k per year full time with benefits.
 

roguehillbilly

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My advice would be to focus on large jobs, especially if you have a job paying you well already. We got 1 contract that was 300k. (2 developers). That beats fighting for cheap work on upwork and having to do 39 projects just to get to the same level of revenue.
Where do you find work that pays that much? I imagine you have a network or some kind of pipeline. I'd agree fighting for work on Upwork is not the way forward. (I built a startup for that purpose, EarlyBrd.io :smile2: )
 

csalvato

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RoR is on it's way out, learn Rust or TypeScript

What @GrayCode says is spot on:

Disagree. We ought to avoid saying things like X is on it's way out as if all RoR will fall off the face of the earth and all libraries and compilers will vanish. It's just not the case. It leads to indecision by beginners, due to people being religious about their languages. Neither here nor there, can agree to disagree.

Related: GOLD! - First Fastlane Month, Feels Amazing! $65,000+ Revenue Pre-tax

EDITed: Because I was being a dick :p
 
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GrayCode

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Where do you find work that pays that much? I imagine you have a network or some kind of pipeline. I'd agree fighting for work on Upwork is not the way forward. (I built a startup for that purpose, EarlyBrd.io :smile2: )
Actually most people who post on upwork have much more room for budget. For instance the person who I turned down for 20k had originally set their budget to 5k.

After analyzing what they wanted, I quoted them $60k. They said they could do 20k. I'm sure we could've got to 30k if I kept pushing, but still didn't think 30k was worth it, so I turned them down and moved on.

Point being: Developers are notoriously bad salespeople/negotiators. A good way to overcome that is to not be afraid to price what you think it is actually worth.

You might find people have higher budgets than the $200 they're posting. Also you'll help educate them into realizing developing end to end web and mobile apps isn't something that happens in two weeks and costs $10/hr.
 

GrayCode

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Actually most people who post on upwork have much more room for budget. For instance the person who I turned down for 20k had originally set their budget to 5k.

After analyzing what they wanted, I quoted them $60k. They said they could do 20k. I'm sure we could've got to 30k if I kept pushing, but still didn't think 30k was worth it, so I turned them down and moved on.

Point being: Developers are notoriously bad salespeople/negotiators. A good way to overcome that is to not be afraid to price what you think it is actually worth.

You might find people have higher budgets than the $200 they're posting. Also you'll help educate them into realizing developing end to end web and mobile apps isn't something that happens in two weeks and costs $10/hr.

Edit: Adding @GuitarManDan mainly because I read your thread and was thoroughly inspired by your work ethic. Plus we're the same age. Figured this might help you blow past your 100k/yr goal.
 

roguehillbilly

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Point being: Developers are notoriously bad salespeople/negotiators. A good way to overcome that is to not be afraid to price what you think it is actually worth.

Cool, definitely makes sense.
Def agree on devs not being salesmen all the time.

How did you make the transition from being a developer to learning sales skills and management skills for the developers? What has been helpful?
 

GrayCode

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Cool, definitely makes sense.
Def agree on devs not being salesmen all the time.

How did you make the transition from being a developer to learning sales skills and management skills for the developers? What has been helpful?
Well on the project we landed worth 300k - It's just me and another developer (friend). I didn't want to take on the entire project by myself, so I decided to split the work and the pay. There's no need to manage him outside of just knowing where we're at in the project timeline and getting things done.

As for sales skills, sales IMO is honestly just the confidence to ask for what you want, and be very bullish on why you're worth that. No cracks in the armor if you will. Confidence is everything in sales. if you say "How do you feel about XYZ price" that comes across far different than "This will cost X here is why"
 

Val Okafor

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I'm a RoR programmer + have worked as a CTO-level leader.

Whenever I am looking for jobs, my inbox fills up fast with recruiter messages. I often have to tell them I won't even look at their job unless it's over $200k/year, the ability to work fully remote all the time on my own schedule, fully paid healthcare, and an office budget.

And even then, they still want to interview/hire me.

I think there's enough demand.
The same can be said for any senior-level roles in other languages and platforms. I wouldn't counsel a new learner to chose ROR. I am biased towards any mobile dev path! Just an opinion!
 

GrayCode

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The same can be said for any senior-level roles in other languages and platforms. I wouldn't counsel a new learner to chose ROR. I am biased towards any mobile dev path! Just an opinion!
Keyword is 'bias'.

I think we all agree it's best to learn what you like writing in, and there is no doubt ruby is one of the easiest languages to learn and Rails makes it easy to grasp the entire lay of the land regarding building end to end web-apps.

That being said. I should probably stop responding to these biased comments (no offense to you @Val Okafor ) because this will be a debate never won.
 

csalvato

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The same can be said for any senior-level roles in other languages and platforms. I wouldn't counsel a new learner to chose ROR. I am biased towards any mobile dev path! Just an opinion!

Someone asserted that they don't see Ruby in rob requirements a lot:

is it still relevant to learn ruby on the back end? Would I be better off with python or java? I'm in nyc, but a lot of the job listings do NOT list ruby as a requirement, but do list python or some other language.

I was just saying that I work in Ruby and have no problem getting jobs if I need to.

I am pretty much beating off jobs with a stick, including bring pinged Amazon and Facebook who have both asked me to come interview based solely on my GitHub. (Which isn’t even that impressive!)

That doesn't mean other languages/paths suck or that RoR is the only/best way to go.

It is a way to go – one that should be considered based on who is available to mentor you, who is available to work with you, the requirements of the project you're working on, and your own personal tastes.

You just want to move fast; and if you can move faster to solve a problem in the universe by working with Python or Swift or C++ or PHP instead of Ruby, then please do that!

Let's cut through all that right now:
  1. Pick a problem that, if solved with software, would reduce pain for people (the more people the better)
  2. Resolve to solve that problem with software
  3. Get started on learning whatever language, concepts, design patterns, etc. you need to learn to solve it.
  4. Don't stop.
 
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daivey

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so far from reading this thread:

HTML
CSS
Javascript
Ruby / Rails

This will be a solid foundation to start with...and then build on from there.
 

randomnumber314

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@csalvato you must be interviewing for remote coastal jobs eh? $200k for a dev is pretty unlikely in the middle of the country in my experience.

I'd say for freelancing, or becoming a dev firm, sell the client on the reliability that you can deliver what they want, everything else is bluster if they're not confident that handing you a check means you hand them their app.

Going the job route, it's more about attitude than aptitude: you can not know shit and get a job because it's clear you'll figure stuff out. I've interviewed people with amazing resumes who I didn't think could figure their way out of a room made of doors.
 

csalvato

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@csalvato you must be interviewing for remote coastal jobs eh? $200k for a dev is pretty unlikely in the middle of the country in my experience.

Sort of. I only apply and entertain recruiters from fully-remote companies. Those companies tend to compare your salary to your coastal counterpart, and $200k is cheaper by comparison compared to NYC/SF.

Local companies here in CO pay less. Something like $120k-$140k.

Why on earth would I take less money to commute? :happy:

EDIT: To be clear i also factor in things like HSA + healthcare premiums + 401k contributions because thats all tax free money I'd have to make & pay w/o their job.

EDIT2: To be clear, I am also on the top range, but Buffer's fully remote salary table should give you a good idea that the average remote engineer is doing pretty well:

 
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Vanyka

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what do you think of "free code camp"?

Free Code Camp have some great tutorials on their YouTube channel. I found these tutorials great - long, detailed and well explained (and without ads). If you put in the work and do/redo everything they show you, you will get great value out of that time.

I started with a vanilla JS course from Udemy which I completed in 3 months part-time while travelling. Then I moved on to Free Code Camp and smashed the React tutorial, along with a few more. IMHO, FCC's material is on par paid Udemy stuff.

I am sure that you already realise this, but I just wanted to re-iterate for all the awesome folk who are getting started here. It is immensely important to get your hands dirty and get stuck in, regardless of what tutorials you watch.

Just my 0.02
Rock on!
 

GrayCode

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what do you think of "free code camp"?
Agreed with what @Vanyka said here:

Free Code Camp have some great tutorials on their YouTube channel. I found these tutorials great - long, detailed and well explained (and without ads). If you put in the work and do/redo everything they show you, you will get great value out of that time.

I started with a vanilla JS course from Udemy which I completed in 3 months part-time while travelling. Then I moved on to Free Code Camp and smashed the React tutorial, along with a few more. IMHO, FCC's material is on par paid Udemy stuff.

I am sure that you already realise this, but I just wanted to re-iterate for all the awesome folk who are getting started here. It is immensely important to get your hands dirty and get stuck in, regardless of what tutorials you watch.

Just my 0.02
Rock on!

The most important thing is to start. I do however wish people would realize that udemy courses are typically like $15. Spend it and buy all the courses you need. If you're actually going to do the work and work hard at it. What's $200 on courses?
 

bdb

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Good thread.

Been a developer for around 10+ years. Barely crossing 100k a year now down in the south working for a remote company. Not sure where you guys get these 200k and 300k jobs, as most of the recruiters and companies I've interviewed for offer way less than that, specially if you are going to be remote. would love to know though, how do you guys find those employers or contracts ?

My humble experience is that you are not going be earning >100k+ working for a company as a new developer without at least a few years of experience with no degrees. College kids might be able to get a 75k job with a degree working for a big company but for people with no degrees you need to show lots of pet projects showcasing your abilities and years of experience to attain 100k 150k a year.

Now if you create your own business and take on clients you can definitely cross that line in a shorter amount of time assuming that you have success.

My advice for those wanting to code is start with basic Python/Javascript as they are easier to grasp then you can branch off to either frontend frameworks like react/vue/angular or backend languages and frameworks like nodejs and ruby/rails, php/laravel once you got the basics of development down.
 

GrayCode

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Good thread.
Thank you.

My advice for those wanting to code is start with basic Python/Javascript as they are easier to grasp then you can branch off to either frontend frameworks like react/vue/angular or backend languages and frameworks like nodejs and ruby/rails, php/laravel once you got the basics of development down.
Good advice. But beginners don't even know what those words mean. So it's definitely confusing to hear these terms. There's almost no reason to learn both php and ruby. I know you're saying either or, but to a beginner who knows nothing about which path to take. They just see all of them and think they need each piece. When in reality it's 1 front end + 1 back end. HTML/CSS is a must.

And that's if you want to be a full-stack dev and it takes time. You can get a job just knowing one side of that equation.

My humble experience is that you are not going be earning >100k+ working for a company as a new developer without at least a few years of experience with no degrees. College kids might be able to get a 75k job with a degree working for a big company but for people with no degrees you need to show lots of pet projects showcasing your abilities and years of experience to attain 100k 150k a year.
I think that's changing. I got 100k without a degree and with virtually no experience. I think this is the experience for most people because they're not good at speaking up for themselves or lack confidence and/or have imposter syndrome.
 

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Really depends if you even like Java. If you don't like it, you should be able to pick up another language fairly quickly. (Assuming you understand programming and can currently build things in java)

If so, I'd go to Ruby/Rails. Then pick up JS later on after you have a good understanding of Ruby/Rails.

Java isn't going anywhere, it'll likely always be used for android apps.
Ruby/Rails, 100% isn't going anywhere, you'll always be able to find work.
JS is good, but personally I used it for mobile apps (react native) and React only if I want to spice up a front end with a reactive component (something that changes often, can't wait on page refresh.)

That's as much as I can give you on the advice side since I'm not really sure the extent to which you know Java. Have you built anything functional and online with it that I can physically go test?
What site and tutorials and book you recommend to learn code?
 

GrayCode

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What site and tutorials and book you recommend to learn code?
Firehoseproject.com (bootcamp)
Udemy.com (coding courses)
Well grounded Rubyist (book)

Getting things handed to us never usually works out. Most people take the advice, and two days later resume old thinking. Keep in mind that I said that when you start thinking 'it's too hard'.
 

csalvato

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Not sure where you guys get these 200k and 300k jobs, as most of the recruiters and companies I've interviewed for offer way less than that, specially if you are going to be remote. would love to know though, how do you guys find those employers or contracts ?

I dunno what to tell you, aside from that you're probably talking to the wrong people.

I get approached by people who have a 70-90k salary in mind for my role. They do exist, but they don't even process into my thinking. When I hear their comp expectation, I literally laugh and send a polite email saying that their expectations need adjusting.

I don't get on the phone with anyone who doesn't disclose a total comp package that exceeds $200k and I'm still getting approached and having phone calls.

And I live in Colorado. I'm not coastal.

Under 100k is for someone who is just getting started. People who are competent working remote are actually worth a premium now.

Stop looking for local jobs in poor areas. Look for remote jobs in companies that want to grow fast - ideally who are profitable or with Series A funding or better.

EDIT: One other note; language or framework is important here. I believe JS developers make less than Ruby developers based on a report from Stack Overflow I saw. Caveat here is that my memory is fuzzy on that, so it would be worth re-investigating.

What site and tutorials and book you recommend to learn code?


This takes you front to back on creating web apps with RoR, including git and a Ruby primer. I tell most people to start here, even if they don't plan to stay with RoR.
 
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