First Fastlane Month, Feels Amazing! $65,000+ Revenue Pre-tax

[GrayCode]

I wanted to post this here as motivation for others and proof that @MJ DeMarco is having an actual effect on changing people's lives. This has been a long time coming...

I first read MFL in 2015 and it changed how I approached things. I wound up learning to code from scratch self-taught. It was a long journey (the process) of ditching my late 20's and digging in to learning code. Head buried in books, podcasts, blogs, courses, and anything else I could get my hands on. It started paying off last year when I got hired full-time as a software engineer.

Went from being a personal trainer making maybe $30k a year to making $100k per year as an engineer. It was a huge upgrade for me and I stuck with my minimalistic living (in NYC) to keep bills low so I can finally get ahead. Paid off some credit debt and never looked back.

There were so many milestones I hit along the way. Here I am 4 years later, getting ready to go into the next decade with new life, pep in my step and my focus on being full-time fastlane.

@MJ DeMarco ... Thank you.

And thanks to everyone else whom I've learned things from over the years. If there's any way I can give back by helping answer questions or etc, I'd be happy to.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Congratulations. This was ALL you.

I made this GOLD because you didn't do anything unusual but work hard and be consistent.

You just taught yourself a higher-level skill (SELF-TAUGHT!) and upped your personal value. Now, you can really start ramping up!

Thank you for sharing this, really warms my heart!

 

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[csalvato]

I'm a RoR programmer + have worked as a CTO-level leader.

Whenever I am looking for jobs, my inbox fills up fast with recruiter messages. I often have to tell them I won't even look at their job unless it's over $200k/year, the ability to work fully remote all the time on my own schedule, fully paid healthcare, and an office budget.

And even then, they still want to interview/hire me.

I think there's enough demand.

 

[GrayCode]

Amazing, congratulations bro!
Have you been able to unlink your time from money?

Yeah, for the most part. I choose how many hours to work per week for the most part. But this bit is important. I first ventured into learning code purely as a means to an end (to earn alot).

But I wound up falling in love with being able to code and build anything I want. So I don't consider what I do work at all. I enjoy doing it.

 

[csalvato]

That's amazing. If you look at Ruby and RoR, Ruby popularity spiked when Rails came out, but both have been drooping ever since:
View attachment 28859

Now compare that to Python and JavaScript. Ruby and RoR are down at the bottom, but I'm not sure how that actually translates to comparative amount of work opportunities.
View attachment 28860

Your success suggests there is still plenty of lucrative RoR work out there -- though I gotta think your results have more to do with your CTO-level abilities than with the RoR programmer market. I doubt a typical RoR freelancer would get many >$200k offers. If I was starting out, I would focus on Python. It seems to have a lot more stable organic growth path.

It's important to understand the context for each language to make sense of these trends.

In the past 15 years, data analysis is becoming more and more necessary. Making sense of huge amounts of data are becoming more important. More people are using software to solve data analysis and business intelligence problems.

Python is definitely the strongest language for understanding and analyzing data. They have robust, well supported libraries such as NumPy and Pandas that make this easier.

So if you want to be a data analysis specialist, definitely learn Python. This explains why Python is growing like crazy.

But if your needs are in the realm of web and app development, I'd argue that Python is a poor choice. Django is the biggest python-based framework in web development, but I don't know of any large company using Django, personally. There are a few, but I personally come across Django job posting rarely. In general, Python isn't great for web-enabled back ends. So if you want to create create web and mobile apps, Python isn't the right tool for the job, IMO, and is only one of many offerings for web technology in a very fragmented web ecosystem.

Ruby and Rails have been in decline because, while web and mobile applications are trending up, the amount of technologies that serve that market are increasing. You have serverless architectures, for example, as well as JavaScript-based Node.js and PHP-based Laravel really coming strong, with great support and ecosystems.

Rails is also becoming less relevant on the front end, with techs like React and Vue being better solutions for that. So, in general, Rails is still very relevant among many options (which include JS, Python, Ruby, PHP, etc.), there's just more options which is fragmenting the ecosystem.

That's why I suggest people start with a problem/area of expertise. By immersing yourself in that problem, you will be exposed to the relevant tech.

If you decided you wanted to analyze a shitton of AdWords data, for example, then you will see Python everywhere, and starting with Python will serve you incredibly well.

If you decided you want to make a web app, you won't come across Python as much as you would in the data science/ML space. In my experience, most people find themselves deciding between Express (Node.js), Laravel, RoR or a serverless solution + choosing between React, Vue or Angular.

The good news is, once you are competent with a language and technology in one area, the transfer to other languages and domains is super simple. I've programmed in C++, Java, Ruby, Python, R and JavaScript just to name a few...that's another reason I suggest starting with a problem, picking a tech, and just running with it. Learning new ones later is super simple after that.

EDIT: For clarity, I changed my wording in some places, since I inadvertently offended some Python enthusiasts; something I'd never do on purpose because I love Python and it's community

 

[csalvato]

I said: "How much money will you make this year?"
Friend: "85k"
Me: "Cool, I made 65k this month".

This is fun for a short while...but over indulging this might not be in your best interests, long term.

I try to flip the script from "I'm doing well and think better than you" to "I'm doing well, how can I get you on my level?"

It's tough. Takes a lot of mental discipline, but is very rewarding long term.

Can't fault you for indulging, though

 

[GrayCode]

Do you have a degree? or did you just learn code and apply for jobs?

No degree, just learned to code on my own. Then spent time building my own projects to really knew I had it down, then applied for jobs.

Just to clarify this isn't my jobs income in a month. It's a combination of 3-4 sources

 

[GrayCode]

I'd wager that seeing those notifications made you feel quite alive.

Congratulations on the success after hard work.

Yeah, they would mostly send those messages 1-2 years ago before the results started coming in. I just put my head down and kept going, always thinking "I'll show you living a little in a few years".

Childish-ness might've taken over but I hung out with some friends the other night. First time in maybe 2-3 months. They mistakenly got on the topic of how I never come hang out. I'm apparently "too busy working hard to not enjoy life". To which I had to do it!

I said: "How much money will you make this year?"
Friend: "85k"
Me: "Cool, I made 65k this month".

Childish, maybe. Gratifying, F*ck yeah.

Awesome thread. Congrats on kicking a$$ like that!

@GrayCode, congrats!! I wish you the best!

Thanks! Onwards!!

 

[GrayCode]

@GrayCode understand where you're coming from, my goal was to make enough money covering my current wage (£2k a month working 60hrs a week) selling wordpress sites so I can focus more on my own thing.

What you and @csalvato are saying makes a lot of sense though, seems I was trying to put a roof on a house without having the walls built.

Appreciate the words of wisdom, hope this 65k month is just the start for you.

Ok, first off. If you get the basics down. You'll earn far more than $2k a month in far less than 60 hours a week. Also I work fully remote and intend to do some traveling soon, while still working.

I agree, you're trying to put the roof on before the walls are built, but also, before the walls go up there needs to be a foundation. That foundation is definitely HTML/CSS and really HTML is like maybe 10-20 different tags you need to know that are most important and CSS is super easy and once you really grasp the cascading aspect of CSS + working with IDs (#someId) and CLASSES (.some_class ). You're golden and that's your foundation.

Also, SUPER IMPORTANT to note...

I'm not saying React and similar frameworks are bad to learn, maybe just not first. Here's why I think so: It's actually quite complicated to grasp and if you feel overwhelmed you might quit before you really get to enjoy it.

I'm willing to bet 95% of apps out there do not need reactive components. Unless the data you're working with is constantly changing, think stock quotes etc.

So HTML+CSS + RoR is really all you need to get rolling and make huge gains in your knowledge. However, I'd ask myself: "Do I want to build wordpress sites, and why?" Also - I believe wordpress is php based (not sure, don't mess with WP) and it's really lower end of the market at this point. You'll be competing with developers overseas who will charge $5 per hour for their time (not a good place to be)

Instead, I'd bet strongly that you could pick up HTML + CSS in ... 3 weeks. and RoR good enough to get a remote job in 6-9 months depends how hard you go at it. Just my opinion. Just remember I can't make the decision for you, I can only share what worked for me and just because it did, doesn't mean your results will be exactly the same.

Congratulations. This was ALL you.

I made this GOLD because you didn't do anything unusual but work hard and be consistent.

Thanks for the gold! I feel apart of the crew of value-givers now.

You just taught yourself a higher-level skill (SELF-TAUGHT!) and upped your personal value. Now, you can really start ramping up!

Yeah, I can really feel the value I provide now. Focusing on a money-tree now. I actually turned down a job on upwork the other day because it was going to pay $20k, but the person wanted web app + mobile apps + API. I was finally in a position to turn something like that down and it felt damn good, didn't regret it.

Thank you for sharing this, really warms my heart!

Echos from the market-mind MJ. Glad I was able to pass some good vibes your way. Thanks again!

 

[GrayCode]

That's awesome. What language did you learn to code? Currently learning PHP myself for part of my degree.

Hey @BenG, I learned Ruby/Rails - then eventually added Javascript and React Native to my skill set. So now I'm able to build for the web, the API layer and Mobile apps.

 

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[GrayCode]

Congratulations!

I'm 29 and I'm starting to take an interest into coding, currently going through a Udemy course.

Love seeing success stories.

It was just an expression, I'm currently taking a Udemy course for front end web development, wanted to eventually get into back end, RoR seems like a good place to look at.

Thanks for the information, theres so much jargon when it comes to coding etc it's nice to get some directions.

Udemy is a solid source. The Odin Project is also good for RoR. I used udemy + lots and lots of building on my own and google + stack overflow.

I'm 28 now, 29 in April. So we're around the same age. Coding definitely changed my life, don't let anyone tell you otherwise IF you're entrepreneurial with it.

Everything @csalvato recommended is spot on. Also, honestly I'd be wary of 'front end development' as a starting point. Learning front end frameworks are great, but they often come with much more abstraction and jargon then learning RoR and really getting a good base down.

Not to mention that Javascript changes super often, so I found it's hard for newer people to get a grasp on it and they eventually give up thinking it's far too hard. ping same advice for - @Crissco

Much more clear now.

That's a lot of coin to pull in from providing services! I imagine this was a whole bunch of accounts paying at once + your paychecks?

Again, congrats! A very similar story to my own.

Well, the last few months have been 15k, 20k, 25k, 35k and now this one at 65k. So yes, but also a good chunk from some stock market (about 22k).

It does feel like a lot of coin, but I know I'm just getting started. There's no shot this is my peak month for the rest of my life, ya know. Just honestly feels great to see all that hard work start to pay off from all the time sacrificed while learning and everyone else just partying.

I actually hung out with some friends last night, the crew who would be like: "Hey dude, F*cking live a little and come out with us, woo, drinks"

It'd be a Saturday night and there I was grinding away because I visualized months like these. So i'd be a damn liar if I didn't say I bragged a bit last night when I finally hung out with them (in a fun way).

@csalvato You have your story posted anywhere, I'm interested to hear about your journey.

If one was to follow your footsetps, where should one start?

maybe start with HTML & CSS & Javascript?

It really depends on what you want to do with your coding knowledge, but I think every developer should have an expert level understanding of HTML/CSS it's the basis for everything.

TheOdinProject is a great resource.
@GrayCode is it still relevant to learn ruby on the back end? Would I be better off with python or java? I'm in nyc, but a lot of the job listings do NOT list ruby as a requirement, but do list python or some other language.

I'm a RoR programmer + have worked as a CTO-level leader.

Whenever I am looking for jobs, my inbox fills up fast with recruiter messages. I often have to tell them I won't even look at their job unless it's over $200k/year, the ability to work fully remote all the time on my own schedule, fully paid healthcare, and an office budget.

And even then, they still want to interview/hire me.

I think there's enough demand.

@SpongeGod everything @csalvato said is correct. There is no best language. It really is just what you enjoy writing in most. I believe that @eliquid made his millions as a PHP developer. You can do it with any language.

Best thing I can say is: DO NOT listen to people when they start the "X language/framework is irrelevant XYZ is the way to go." It's just a popularity contest because people want to be validated in their own choice.

Congratulations dude, that’s a great story. Very inspiring!

Thank you

 

[GrayCode]

Congrats!

Just clarifying: did you learn to code, and have been saving in that time while working full time? Or did you just make $65k in a month from some software product/project you've been working on?

Clarification:
- Started learning to code in Aug 2016.
- Started job in early 2018.
- Income you see there is from job + side hustle business (dev company) + stock market
- The entire 65k is this past month if you notice dates on deposits. Oct 20th or so until present day

 

[csalvato]

I think you are highly experienced in backend dev with additional managing experience and that is why you get such high offers.

I don't expect that people coming out of a boot camp would get 150k+

If this is your first job, you can definitely get hired for 60k, but I know I couldn't hire anyone good for less than 80k.

The people I've hired at 80-90k with little experience were making over 120k each after a year on the job.

A problem I ran into when hiring is that all these boot camp graduates think that a boot camp is enough. They were doing it for a paycheck. Hiring managers want to invest in someone who is a product minded engineer, not a paycheck chaser:

The Product-Minded Software Engineer

Product-minded engineers are developers with lots of interest in the product itself. They want to understand why decisions are made, how people use the product, and love to be involved in making product decisions. They're someone who would likely make a good product manager if they ever decide...

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

If you embody that and demonstrate it, you will get higher offers. @GrayCode's story corroborates that. As entrepreneurs, we should all be product-minded engineers - the most valuable engineers in a business.

If you've been programming for a few years and you're still not at 150k+, then the problem is something you're doing.

For example, for someone who wants to make more, you're focusing a lot on proving the point that there are 80-100k job opportunities out there. Of course, you'll find that.

I don't even register those job offers because I find them insulting - not just for me, but for anyone with more than a year or two experience working on web apps.

If you want to make more money, you need to figure out who you need to be to earn that wage and filter out all the stuff that doesn't fit your criteria.

Stop focusing on the jobs that you don't want. Focus on the jobs you do want.

I think you are highly experienced in backend dev with additional managing experience and that is why you get such high offers. I went to weworkremotely and did a quick search for the first post offering some kind of visible figures in my field for senior and non senior role and found this:

You're making some assumptions worth calling out.

I'm not a back end dev. I'm a full stack product engineer. I do whatever is necessary to get a fantastic product out that solves problems - so I operate across the whole stack, including managing if that's what it takes to create an incredible product.

If you aren't finding what you want in "your field", then change "your field" to be the field where people are making 50%+ more than you.

 

[csalvato]

Thanks, outstanding post.

I've programmed in C, C++, Pascal (!), even assembler (!!), a bit of R and Python, and assorted other specialized languages. But I'm not really up on the language/application space these days. Your explanation was very helpful.

Glad I was helpful!

Your success suggests there is still plenty of lucrative RoR work out there -- though I gotta think your results have more to do with your CTO-level abilities than with the RoR programmer market. I doubt a typical RoR freelancer would get many >$200k offers. If I was starting out, I would focus on Python. It seems to have a lot more stable organic growth path.

I realize I forgot to touch on this and this is probably the most important part...

There's plenty of RoR opportunities. My leadership skills definitely help me stand out from the crowd, but everyone on my team right now is making $150k+ and have all the benefits I listed.

We are a senior-heavy team, and they have a few years of experience, but I have hired junior level developers for $80 who were at $120k within 12-18 months. They started on RoR, then branched into other things on the job (or got a new job that demanded a new tech, and they learned it within 1-2 months on the job).

There's a lot of opportunity out there for a stable, flexible income which is great when also pursuing your own business on the side. I can't think of why anyone wouldn't go this route in 2019, tbh.

 

[GrayCode]

Hey man, congrats on how far you have come. I transitioned into coding myself and I know how hard it is to learn. Well done! I don't have much experience with web technologies and I'm learning in my free time right now. I may dabble in consulting at some point so I'll be following your progress.

Thank you. Good luck on your journey.

Congrats! You did a great job learning a skill and then applying it.

1. Do you recommend learning HTML as a first language?

2. Did you build any websites/projects? Or how were you able to get hired without a college degree?

1. I do recommend learning HTML along with CSS first. They go hand in hand.
2. I built a couple of web-apps that I called 'side businesses' with the intent to launch which looking back on it now, I called it action-faking in previous threads, but I guess it wasn't. It was all apart of the journey up until this point.

I realized that not everything I do needs to be aimed at 'how can I make money from this?' It kind of poisons and clouds your mind from really creating awesome shit. (I can expand on that more if you want me to)

But to answer your second question... I'm going to create a small thread and link it back here once It's ready. Doing this because I feel like that's information many would want, and what I did, I think can be very helpful and I wouldn't want it to get buried pages deep in this one.

 

[GrayCode]

the only thing I take offense at is suggesting python is a poor choice or that it is not used in production. We’d agree on the other points. I think it’s important that anyone reading who isn’t well versed has an objective view.

I agree - the issue is it leads to indecision like below. I'm sure we can all agree, most programming languages are good for most things. Specialize if it requires specialization. It's like building a site like Wikipedia in React. Who would ever do that, what about Wikipedia needs Reactive components? Ya know?

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, this is why I initially found it difficult to get started, Google is filled with programmers arguing which language is best etc and opinions get taken to extremes which makes it difficult for beginners (like me) to know where to start.

Honestly, depends on your goal. If the goal is Wordpress related stuff - PHP will be good. If your goal is longer-term, job + side projects, anything you're most comfortable with.

I enjoy writing in Ruby, Rails (it speaks to my soul lol, I write it like I write sentences)

Others may like Python, PHP, Javascript, etc. For purely getting started, I'd pick Rails and not look back. (just my point of view)

Check out David Heinemeier Hansson (DHH) he created the Rails framework:

Why did David Heinemeier Hansson choose Ruby (over Python?) to build Rails? - Quora

For an LOL related exactly what we're talking about (devs arguing over their preferred language (tool)):

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1034481397430251521

View: https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1034481397430251521?lang=en

Also, huge lol at the first reply to the thread:


and for some Fastlane entrepreneurial money concepts:

DHH: The Day I Became a Millionaire
DHH & Chase Jarvis interview. Lot's of money and money philosophy talk in there.

 

[GrayCode]

OP, congrats on your hard work, that's some awesome progress. I am curious more on the side income and takeaways you have there. How long did it take to build the dev shop up and what advice would you give someone wanting to follow the same steps? I am a developer already btw

My advice would be to focus on large jobs, especially if you have a job paying you well already. We got 1 contract that was 300k. (2 developers). That beats fighting for cheap work on upwork and having to do 39 projects just to get to the same level of revenue.

If it sounded like far too much work for what was being offered, I just didn't take it. I turned down 20k job the other day because the person wanted dual-platform mobile apps and a web app and the API to connect. Just not worth the headache.

You're better off finding jobs 50k or greater and simply not caring when you turn down 10k job. The only difference is, you can't turn down 10k if you jump off the bridge and have no plan otherwise and need the 10k.

Hope that helps, happy to expand.

 

[HelpAndProsper]

I'm a Front End Developer in the Boston area.....I get constant job offers from recruiters. There are no shortcuts to learning to code....Most people are not willing to put in the work.

On the Front End, start with HTML/CSS/Vanilla JavaScript.....

Don't try to jump into Frameworks too soon because once you're hired, your employer will soon find out that you don't know JACK about JavaScript when you have to debug something in a Framework like Vue, React or Angular.

Personally, I keep getting hired for WordPress roles because I've been doing it for years. To be a good WP developer, you should know HTML/CSS/PHP and JS.....

Front End is very tough because there are a lot of variables(screen sizes, browsers, etc.)....

CSS is a never-ending process of learning.....It's very hard to find someone who is GREAT at CSS.....

To learn, build very small, simple projects, such as:
calculator app
to do list
a simple tic tac to game

Learn how to make things change or move on a page when you click something.....

Personally, I'm trying to build my own business right now and I'd only take a job right now if they pay me over 120k per year full time with benefits.

 

[GrayCode]

Where do you find work that pays that much? I imagine you have a network or some kind of pipeline. I'd agree fighting for work on Upwork is not the way forward. (I built a startup for that purpose, EarlyBrd.io )

Actually most people who post on upwork have much more room for budget. For instance the person who I turned down for 20k had originally set their budget to 5k.

After analyzing what they wanted, I quoted them $60k. They said they could do 20k. I'm sure we could've got to 30k if I kept pushing, but still didn't think 30k was worth it, so I turned them down and moved on.

Point being: Developers are notoriously bad salespeople/negotiators. A good way to overcome that is to not be afraid to price what you think it is actually worth.

You might find people have higher budgets than the $200 they're posting. Also you'll help educate them into realizing developing end to end web and mobile apps isn't something that happens in two weeks and costs $10/hr.

 

[csalvato]

That's amazing! RoR added to my pile.

You probably don't need a pile Just pick one that's in demand and go with it. Anything from here is a good choice:

Stack Overflow Developer Survey 2019

Nearly 90,000 took this comprehensive, annual survey of people who code. Demographics. Most loved, dreaded and wanted technologies. Salary and careers.

insights.stackoverflow.com

 

[csalvato]

The same can be said for any senior-level roles in other languages and platforms. I wouldn't counsel a new learner to chose ROR. I am biased towards any mobile dev path! Just an opinion!

Someone asserted that they don't see Ruby in rob requirements a lot:

is it still relevant to learn ruby on the back end? Would I be better off with python or java? I'm in nyc, but a lot of the job listings do NOT list ruby as a requirement, but do list python or some other language.

I was just saying that I work in Ruby and have no problem getting jobs if I need to.

I am pretty much beating off jobs with a stick, including bring pinged Amazon and Facebook who have both asked me to come interview based solely on my GitHub. (Which isn’t even that impressive!)

That doesn't mean other languages/paths suck or that RoR is the only/best way to go.

It is a way to go – one that should be considered based on who is available to mentor you, who is available to work with you, the requirements of the project you're working on, and your own personal tastes.

You just want to move fast; and if you can move faster to solve a problem in the universe by working with Python or Swift or C++ or PHP instead of Ruby, then please do that!

Let's cut through all that right now:

1. Pick a problem that, if solved with software, would reduce pain for people (the more people the better)
2. Resolve to solve that problem with software
3. Get started on learning whatever language, concepts, design patterns, etc. you need to learn to solve it.
4. Don't stop.

 

[GrayCode]

After completing the Main WebDEV skills (HTML,CSS, JAVA), how do I decide on the next languange to learn?

I understand that a lot of languages can be used to build the same things as others, but how would you narrow it down. I guess based on use and demand in the market?

If you already know HTML/CSS and Java, you're more than capable of building web-apps at that point. Technically also mobile apps for android.

The main thing is figuring out what you want to do with that knowledge and attack that viciously. Do you...

1) Want a job as an engineer and will also work on side softwares until something gets rolling?
If so, then start applying. You can certainly find roles to pay you as a java engineer.

2) Want to focus on building some product to sell?
Well, do that, but realize that just selling any random thing for the sake of a quick buck likely won't work as you'll get bored rather quickly and may not see it through to the end.

MJ was able to do something like limos.com because he already knew about Limos from being a driver and saw the need and was able to scale it out.

The point being, don't pick some random-a$$ industry like forum software for underwater basket weavers, unless you yourself are an underwater basket-weaver and know there to be a huge market ripe for picking. Contrived example, but hopefully the point came across.

Personal opinion, since I believe you mentioned you were young, I'd get a job paying you 80-120k depending on what you can find, bank that money while building something on your own. Nothing wrong with that and your future self will thank you.

 

[GrayCode]

what do you think of "free code camp"?

Agreed with what @Vanyka said here:

Free Code Camp have some great tutorials on their YouTube channel. I found these tutorials great - long, detailed and well explained (and without ads). If you put in the work and do/redo everything they show you, you will get great value out of that time.

I started with a vanilla JS course from Udemy which I completed in 3 months part-time while travelling. Then I moved on to Free Code Camp and smashed the React tutorial, along with a few more. IMHO, FCC's material is on par paid Udemy stuff.

I am sure that you already realise this, but I just wanted to re-iterate for all the awesome folk who are getting started here. It is immensely important to get your hands dirty and get stuck in, regardless of what tutorials you watch.

Just my 0.02
Rock on!

The most important thing is to start. I do however wish people would realize that udemy courses are typically like $15. Spend it and buy all the courses you need. If you're actually going to do the work and work hard at it. What's $200 on courses?

 

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[Benji90]

Objectively speaking, python is less- or as-popular as most other web technologies. It’s one offering in a very fragmented ecosystem.

When it comes to big data, there are only two practical choices - R and Python; and python is more mature for production data applications.

Listen, I never said Python wasn’t used on the web, just that it’s not my first choice personally.

Sheesh.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, this is why I initially found it difficult to get started, Google is filled with programmers arguing which language is best etc and opinions get taken to extremes which makes it difficult for beginners (like me) to know where to start.

 

[csalvato]

Not sure where you guys get these 200k and 300k jobs, as most of the recruiters and companies I've interviewed for offer way less than that, specially if you are going to be remote. would love to know though, how do you guys find those employers or contracts ?

I dunno what to tell you, aside from that you're probably talking to the wrong people.

I get approached by people who have a 70-90k salary in mind for my role. They do exist, but they don't even process into my thinking. When I hear their comp expectation, I literally laugh and send a polite email saying that their expectations need adjusting.

I don't get on the phone with anyone who doesn't disclose a total comp package that exceeds $200k and I'm still getting approached and having phone calls.

And I live in Colorado. I'm not coastal.

Under 100k is for someone who is just getting started. People who are competent working remote are actually worth a premium now.

Stop looking for local jobs in poor areas. Look for remote jobs in companies that want to grow fast - ideally who are profitable or with Series A funding or better.

EDIT: One other note; language or framework is important here. I believe JS developers make less than Ruby developers based on a report from Stack Overflow I saw. Caveat here is that my memory is fuzzy on that, so it would be worth re-investigating.

What site and tutorials and book you recommend to learn code?

Ruby on Rails Tutorial

Since its initial publication in 2010, the Ruby on Rails Tutorial has been one of the leading introductions to web development. In this bestselling tutorial, you’ll learn how to develop and deploy real, industrial-strength web applications with Ruby on Rails, the open-source web framework that...

www.railstutorial.org

This takes you front to back on creating web apps with RoR, including git and a Ruby primer. I tell most people to start here, even if they don't plan to stay with RoR.

 

[csalvato]

Spot on. You know... @csalvato, correct me if I'm wrong. It seems that a lot of these reasons for not finding higher paying work (as I see a lot of comments regarding that) has less to do with the opportunities being available and more to do with the specific engineers confidence and self-esteem with being able to relentlessly seek better opportunities and know their own personal worth and what they will and will not accept.

Also, on your point about being a product engineer. I think that's going over some people's heads a bit. There is a large difference between a full-stack capable-engineer and a full-stack capable-engineer who is also entrepreneurial.

Definitely. Let's take a look at Medium's engineering ladder as an example. Here you can put in a person's approximate level of skill across various domains and calculate how "senior" (i.e. well paid) they are:

https://snowflake.medium.com/#1,2,3,2,4,1,1,4,3,2,0,4,2,2,3,0,Cersei%20Lannister,Staff%20Engineer

The higher you are on more of these, the better your title and salary.

Only five of the sixteen have to do with writing code.

You get more valuable when you can be a good-enough programmer and do the other 11 things that are valuable to the organization.

So how do I stand out from other engineers who have more experience coding than me? I crush it on those other 11 things, and am really good at the 5 coding ones, too.

If anyone's interested, several other companies publish their engineering ladders here: progression.fyi

You'll notice the same thing is true over many successful companies hiring engineering talent. And for those of us, like me, who are building software teams, this is useful in understanding how to hire a high caliber engineering team.

 

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[kelbs]

Hey man, congrats on how far you have come. I transitioned into coding myself and I know how hard it is to learn. Well done! I don't have much experience with web technologies and I'm learning in my free time right now. I may dabble in consulting at some point so I'll be following your progress.

But if your needs are in the realm of web and app development, I'd argue that Python is a poor choice. Django is the biggest python-based framework in web development, but I don't know of any large company using Django, personally. In general, Python isn't great for web-enabled back ends. So if you want to create create web and mobile apps, Python isn't the right tool for the job, IMO.

Notable websites built with django:

• Instagram
• Pinterest
• Bitbucket
• Firefox documentation and firefox dev site (MDN Web Docs)
• Nasa.gov
• theonion.com
• Washington Post

Django is fine as a web framework. It's established and can handle many common back-end tasks with minimal developer effort, plus based on the above list clearly it can scale massively. If you learn Django you also learn python, which as you mentioned you can used for other things like data science, scripting, etc... Actually, I'd argue it's better to learn Django for all those reasons than to learn Rails. But ultimately the language/framework isn't super important since one you know one, you can learn others quickly if needed.

 

[GrayCode]

@Chicken_Dude as promised above: How I got hired as a software engineer without a college degree hope it helps.

 

[GrayCode]

Thanks for posting this, your story is very inspiring! Rock on!

Congratulations on your success, it is SUPER AWESOME to see real people getting impressive results like this. Will definitely read your other post as well.

Also great to see fellow to-be-coders, as I am in the same boat as well

They're out there, though some might not be too vocal. Stick around, the forum is helpful.

Very inspiring post!

I’m also mainly self-taught (JS stack) and have been freelancing while finishing up my CS degree.

The goal is basically to get a remote job while still taking on clients on the side.

This post and your recommendation of purely focusing on large deals spoke to my soul, especially since I’ve been hustling and bustling for $500-$2k projects.

Cheers

Yes, ughhh soul-sucking to work for 500-2k. Developers always undervalue themselves because they're trying to compete with devs in other regions of the world where market dynamics are vastly different.

This is going to lead to a race to the bottom on pricing and people seeking developers who just think most things should cost $2k and be done in 3 weeks.

Edit: It already has lead to a race to the bottom, it's just going to get worse.

 

[GrayCode]

this is awesome, congrats! Inspiring really, i might look into committing to learning RoR because of this. Keep up the good work.

Thank you.

Congrats man, doing the same thing. It's a sweet sweet path.

Thanks, interested to see what you're working on, got a thread somewhere?

RoR is on it's way out, learn Rust or TypeScript

Disagree. We ought to avoid saying things like X is on it's way out as if all RoR will fall off the face of the earth and all libraries and compilers will vanish. It's just not the case. It leads to indecision by beginners, due to people being religious about their languages. Neither here nor there, can agree to disagree.