Finding THE programmer

[lightweight99]

Any members here that have any words of wisdom when searching for a programmer? Questions to ask, experiences, feel free to share.

Thanks!

 

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[Icy]

There is so much that can be said. The NUMBER 1 thing though is if they do it in their free time. As with most things a person who thoroughly enjoys an activity are (usually) the best. I personally wouldn't worry about a college education as long as they can provide old projects of theirs.

I can give actual questions to ask if you give an idea more so of what you're wanting to create. There are so many different things you'd need to look for in a programmer depending on what you want created.

 

[Rem]

All I can say is that most programmers will want to do your work whenever they feel like it. I have had a lot of bad experiences with them, while some good... They have the mentality that you will not be able to succeed without them, and therefore will try to take the upper hand by doing everything on their timing. I would list out a bunch of demands on what you would need done, with a timeframe, and be as specific as you can. Once you find one, sign a contract with the timeframe mention within or your work will never get done.

I would pay some up front like 20%. Never pay based on hours. No freakin' way. Get a quote, and if you agree, then agree to pay some up front. Then agree to pay 30% half way through the project and then when the project is complete pay the remaining 50%.

Before you pick someone I would talk to them on the phone. I would make sure you are able to communicate well with them as this is important. If you have trouble understanding them due to certain barriers I would keep looking until you are comfortable with someone. I would say this is just as, or if not more, important than how good of a programmer they are. I would settle for a good programmer that can communicate real well than find the best programmer but you can't understand shit.

But I would make sure you laid it out and was firm about it. If they can't agree to it then they can go elsewhere. I think one of the biggest drawbacks to outsourcing this kind of work is getting what you want done in the time frame you want it in.

I hired a programmer a few years back and after we signed the contract (which had no time frame attached to it), I agreed to pay 50% up front and 50% when the job was done.

I paid 50% which was not cheap. I waited months before he started work. Finally it was like 6 months and I hounded him. At that point he put up a landing page and spent maybe a couple hours and then weeks went by and I heard nothing. I started getting after him. I would call him and he would apologize and say he was really busy and would begin etc etc. Then he said he needed the rest of the money to finish. I told him that was not the agreement and so nothing got done. Finally I figured if I paid him the rest he would make it a priority. WRONG! I paid the entire project up front when he had only worked on the project for a few hours. Weeks and months went by. I was pissed. I started reaching out to my attorney who sent the programmer a nice peaceful threat about the agreement.

He told me he got the project done and it wasn't anywhere near what I had asked. I had it in writing all the things I wanted done. He told me all of it was done and in there and so I had to fight with him on that. It was 18 months later and from the initial signing of the contract and he finally spent like 2 days doing everything I wanted.

It took me literally a year and a half to get about 2-3 days of work done. He finally got it done but it was a really bad experience.

I have done other deals since then and although the experiences have been a lot better and the work gets done, they have this mentality that you owe these programmers something. Like our lives would be lost without them. I hope I don't tick off any programmers on this site but please don't be the norm if you are. You may actually make a buttload of money if you can just pretend you care and work hard and get some projects done in a reasonable time frame.

OK that is my hiring a programmer rant... :urock2:

 

[WinWin]

I would list out a bunch of demands on what you would need done, with a timeframe, and be as specific as you can.

All of what "sm media" wrote is very true. However you can eliminate most of it by going through outsourcing outfits such as Rent A Coder(RAC) or Elance.

Here is what I recommend.

1. Go to RAC or Elance. Search for projects already posted by someone, which is similar in scope and magnitude as yours. Read their description to understand how to clearly spell out your project requirements. Also look at the price range.

2. Now, post your project for bids. Describe your requirements as clearly as you can. Include attachments if needed in Word or Excel to better express your ideas. Ask the programmers to include their past project samples when they submit bids.

3. Wait for people to bid. Shortlist programmers based on their feedback score. Review only those programmers with the best feedback score. Among the short listed bidders, read their feedback. How did they react to negative feedback if any? What are their past projects? Are these projects similar in scope and magnitude as that of yours?

4. Ask some pertinent and specific questions to the short listed bidders. See how quickly and clearly they communicate back to you.

5. If your project is very unique, then ask them if they can do a mock-up or a sample to make sure they understand your needs properly. Some may not comply with this request, but some would. This is another opportunity to further shortlist your bidders.

6. Once you are happy with everything, pick your programmer from among all the short-listed bidders. Don't just look at the price. Use the combination of factors (their Price + their feedback score + their bid request details + how they responded to your questions etc) to make your final decision.

7. Once you select your programmer, setup clear milestones for the project with dates and the corresponding expected payment. Here is a possible break-up
a. Initial payment = 10%
b. Implementation of all features (you can further break this up if needed) = 30%
c. Deployment = 20%
d. Testing, verification and Validation = 20%
e. Final Approval = 20%

At any point, if the milestone is not properly met, you have the power to cancel the project and get back your money.

Good luck.:smx19:

 

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[lightweight99]

There is so much that can be said. The NUMBER 1 thing though is if they do it in their free time. As with most things a person who thoroughly enjoys an activity are (usually) the best. I personally wouldn't worry about a college education as long as they can provide old projects of theirs.

I can give actual questions to ask if you give an idea more so of what you're wanting to create. There are so many different things you'd need to look for in a programmer depending on what you want created.

The program will appeal to all clothing sites, which there lies another issue of how I will decide to implement the program. As I am not familiar with it at all, I will also be looking for their advice on implementation, whether it can sold as a one time deal or however programs are implemented to other companies.

 

[LightHouse]

http://www.thefastlanetomillions.co...so-you-need-web-developer-my-experiences.html

 

[RACNicole]

Hi, this is Nicole from Rent a Coder. Rentacoder provides access to programming, writing, illustration, even data entry workers.

I'd like to point out a few differences between our service and services like Elance as suggested by WinWin since those differences could influence the success of an outsourced project.

===
Employing a new worker that you don't yet know/trust:
===

When you don't yet know if a worker is productive, both Elance and Rent A Coder let you employ them in the safest way possible: by paying them a fixed price for the final deliverables (called pay-for-deliverables). However, if there is a problem, Elance charges you for the arbitration process necessary to get a refund (while Rent A Coder does not), and the process can take much longer if the worker is abusive.

1) Money-back Guarantee
---
If a worker doesn't deliver what they agreed to, both sites will step in and give you a refund via arbitration. However Rent A Coder does this for free. If a worker doesn't deliver what they agreed to, both sites will step in and give you a refund via arbitration. However Elance charges you $66-$133 to do this. This may also make it impractical to get a refund on smaller projects. Rent A Coder, on the other hand, does this for free.

2) Arbitration
---
On Elance a worker can challenge you with an arbitration at any time. If they do you must either choose to pay the non-refundable arbitration fee ($66-$133) or forfeit your money-back guarantee. Rent A Coder, on the other hand, never charges you to exercise your guarantee.

In addition, on Rent A Coder you can start arbitration immediately. A worker intent on abusing the system can stall the start of arbitration on Elance for 21 business days and during this period your money is not available to you. During the first phase (dispute assistance), the worker has up to 3 business days to respond, and can make this phase last up to 12 additional business days (15 business days total). After this, the arbitration phase "begins", but does not actually start because the worker is given 3 business days to acknowledge the notice of arbitration, and the another 3 business days if they did not acknowledge the first notice. Only at this point is arbitration actually started. See the Elance contract for more information.

3) Expert Guarantee
---
Both sites' triple-point money-back guarantee protect your money from a worker that doesn't deliver. But if you had a critical deadline, you may have lost vital time. Our Expert Guarantee helps you avoid this situation by identifying the most committed and expert workers during bidding. The workers agree to place a deposit to guarantee that they will not break any of the triple-point (or quadruple-point) guarantees. If they do, they forfeit the deposit (which goes to cover cancellation fees and then gets donated to a worthy charity).


If you have any questions, please let me know. You can also call in to talk to a facilitator 7 days a week, or email us.

Nicole

 

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[Jill]

I like script lance because of their escrow service. Not sure whether others offer that or not. But I've had consistently professional experiences from developers there.

 

[Andrew]

Since some spam bot bumped this thread, I'll add my two cents as I employ 5 full time programmers.

If you aren't a programmer at all (I'm not), do these two things:
1) Make them take a basic IQ test. In order to be a good programmer they have to be sharp. There are also programmer specific skill tests, but unless you've locked them in a room they'll look up the answers on Google.

2) Give them a unique test project. The project should be simple but have specific variables that mean they can't just copy and paste something off the web. Doing this will tell you if the programmer can follow instructions (the run of the mill Indians off the freelancer sites can't) and how quickly they can do what you want.

If you are looking for top level programming talent then you need to pay an experienced US programmer to recruit and manage them. I pay my head developer about $120,000 a year.

If you need developers on a budget, then pay a lot of attention to English comprehension. Countries like the Philippines where English is taught in school will mean programmers do what you ask them, even if the end results aren't perfect from an engineering standpoint.

 

[LightHouse]

Since some spam bot bumped this thread, I'll add my two cents as I employ 5 full time programmers.

If you aren't a programmer at all (I'm not), do these two things:
1) Make them take a basic IQ test. In order to be a good programmer they have to be sharp. There are also programmer specific skill tests, but unless you've locked them in a room they'll look up the answers on Google.

2) Give them a unique test project. The project should be simple but have specific variables that mean they can't just copy and paste something off the web. Doing this will tell you if the programmer can follow instructions (the run of the mill Indians off the freelancer sites can't) and how quickly they can do what you want.

If you are looking for top level programming talent then you need to pay an experienced US programmer to recruit and manage them. I pay my head developer about $120,000 a year.

If you need developers on a budget, then pay a lot of attention to English comprehension. Countries like the Philippines where English is taught in school will mean programmers do what you ask them, even if the end results aren't perfect from an engineering standpoint.

Andrew, it may benefit the lot and I am particularly interested in Where you find a high level programmer, how you manage him, and how he manages your team and what they are capable of?

 

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[sk24iam]

What does everyone think about using a programmer for one of these options...

1) Just the backend. If I were to design the site, would it be cheaper to use elance for just the coding of the site?

2) Security and debugging. If I were to code the entire site, could you hire someone on elance to make the code secure and debug the site?

Also, do you find when hiring off of elance, they will give you a price and then add on expenses? For instance, lets say I hire someone to build a site like ebay. We settle on a price and timeline. Then after it's done I request they add in feedback system since ebay has one and they say this will cost more money. Does this happen often, and can this be avoided by making a more detailed scope?

 

[Icy]

1. Sure it would be a bit cheaper, but the frontend is the "cheap" part, but also (imo) the most important. This is what users will base most of their experience on. They wouldn't so much care about perfection on the backend as long as it's secure for them, and it isn't slow.

2. The problem with this is that it could take a person significantly longer to go over someone elses code to make sure it's secure than to make it themselves. Especially with OOP languages having something "work" and having it designed well are two COMPLETELY different things. Improper design makes code hell to maintain, and fixing problems could be near impossible without significant redesign of the code. If you plan to learn it, code it, then have someone else review it you're most likely better off just paying someone from the get go.

Good design of code is an art in itself and makes life a whole lot easier when maintaining. If you have problems down the road and need to get someone to fix it the time of repairing it largely depends on how your code is designed.

Not sure if that makes much sense. If not let me know and I could try to provide a "simple" example.

 

[Forbes]

My advice is to ask for recommendations from other people. Personal experience of a programmers work is what i base on.

 

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[discountshuffle]

I found (edited) to be quite useful when it comes to hiring programmers. Maybe you want to give the a try.