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Dopamine. The missing piece of the success puzzle. (Improve Locus of Control, Motivation, Self-control)

Bertram

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At the beginning and end of each day, it's your life and your choices.
Let the readers and market decide what is best for them, people might need some data, tools, products, whatever to help them along in gaining an understanding of themselves.

Whatever helps in an individuals self-education.

No one's pushing anything, present options and let a person choose for themselves.


I initially chose not to reply so as not to interfere in any way with OP's message on this thread, but I changed my mind in the interests of adding value to this thread (hopefully).

I think it is wiser in life not to think of things in a zero-sum manner unless unbiased data shows it truly is. * Not sure what the data & research is on that but perhaps you could enlighten us on this in a thread.

My intention was to merely present choices, options or alternatives for individuals to consider and make their own decisions accordingly.

I believe in utilizing whatever works and constantly pushing the boundaries of our reality, constantly testing, iterating, improving and learning as we all go along in life.
Did my comment sound critical of your content? It was misdirected. I'm with you about the fact that our lives are self-determined and each one of us no less than a work of art. OP thinks we are machines and 100% the product of genetics with no room left over for consciousness or even environmental influences. Finally the scientology emerges.
Au contraire we are works of art. Stardust.
 

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Tourmaline

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that's not what he's saying at all...

He's saying genetics have some influence, now here's what you can do about it specifically based on your genetics.

Of course you should do all the other general stuff too.

But I think there's a space between, 'genetics determine nothing' and 'genetics determine everything' that is objective and useful and empowering.
 

Bertram

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that's not what he's saying at all...

He's saying genetics have some influence, now here's what you can do about it specifically based on your genetics.

Of course you should do all the other general stuff too.

But I think there's a space between, 'genetics determine nothing' and 'genetics determine everything' that is objective and useful and empowering.
You missed #116. He actually said 100% determined by genetics.
Sheer nonsense.
My clown helicopter is landing. Another time and place perhaps.
 
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Tourmaline

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Do you differentiate between people with ADHD and people that procrastinate/get distracted?

Or are you putting forth that in essence, 'People give themselves ADHD'.
 
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ChrisV

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Do you differentiate between people with ADHD and people that procrastinate/get distracted?
Me? Not really. The only reason I'm even focusing on ADHD (and Addiction) is that they're well-studied disorders of self-control and impulsivity. ADHD is just the extreme end of a self-control spectrum.

I'm interested in what the research can tell us about self-control and distractibility in general.

ADHD spectrum.png

So everything I've said about ADHD applies to even mild-to-moderate procrastinators, just to varying degrees.

I wasn't sure if you were talking to me, but if so that's my answer.
 
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ChrisV

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that's not what he's saying at all...

He's saying genetics have some influence, now here's what you can do about it specifically based on your genetics.

Of course you should do all the other general stuff too.

But I think there's a space between, 'genetics determine nothing' and 'genetics determine everything' that is objective and useful and empowering.
Genetics are the hand you're dealt. You have zero control over the hand you're dealt.

But how you play it is your choice.

A good poker player can make just as much money off a shitty hand as he can a perfect hand.


I initially chose not to reply so as not to interfere in any way with OP's message on this thread, but I changed my mind in the interests of adding value to this thread (hopefully).
Add anything you'd like. This is a discussion thread. I'm pretty much done with what I had to say, so anything people would like to add is fair game.
 
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ChrisV

ChrisV

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Oh yea guys, duh... I forgot to point out quite possibly the most famous experiment on this.

This was a really famous piece of research in the 1960's that illustrates this nicely. It was called the Stanford Marshmallow Experiment or popularly known as “The Marshmallow Test”
There were some recent replication studies that called the size of the effect of the Marshmallow Test into question.

Basically the original correlation was .58, then when controlling for factors like Parents Socioeconomic Status, the correlation dropped to .3. The blog-o-sphere took that to mean the “Stanford Marshmallow Experiment was debunked,” Wrong. It just means the effect wasn’t as great as originally reported.

Even though it's not as large as the original study, a correlation of .3 is considered large in social sciences. So essentially they're saying 'the effect after controlling for socioeconomic status, intelligence, personality, and behavior problems isn’t AS large than we originally found'.. well duh, that always happens when you control for variables… but it doesn't matter because .3 is still a good find.

In summary: The replication is absolutely, positively not a failure.

Marshmallow Test is legit.


In the 60s, Stanford professor Walter Mischel started conducting a series of influential studies on Self-Control.

You take children and put them in a room. You put a marshmallow, or a pretzel or cookie (whichever is their favorite) in front of them. Sounds simple right? But then researchers offer them a deal; one that makes it a bit harder.

The researcher tells the child “okay I’m going to leave, for 15 minutes. If you don’t eat the treat, you’ll be rewarded with a second treat as well.”

Simple choice: one treat right now or two treats later.

The researcher leaves the room for 15 minutes.

Simple enough. Almost all of the kids say they want the two marshmallows, but will all of them be able to resist the temptation? Well it turns out, not all of them can resist these delicious little morsels. And watching footage of these pour tormented souls is quite hilarious.

Okay, who cares? Well here’s where things get really interesting.

You decide that since you didn't torment these poor kids enough as children, you go back and find them decades later. Now this children are all grown up. When they found them years later and gathered data, they found some surprising correlations. They found that the children who were able to delay gratification decades earlier tended to have better life outcomes in almost every area. Better SAT scores. Higher Educational Attainment. Lower BMI, Lower rates of divorce, Lower rates of drug abuse.

Later brain-imaging studies showed that the children (now adults) showed differences in neural activity in two key areas. The high delayers showed more activity on the Prefrontal Cortex (the area I spoke about in my other post implicated in Self-Control.) The high delayers also showed more activity in the ventral striatum (which I spoke about in my original post.)

EurekAlert: Dopamine impacts your willingness to work – Vanderbilt University

A 2011 brain imaging study of a sample from the original Stanford participants when they reached mid-life showed key differences between those with high delay times and those with low delay times in two areas: the prefrontal cortex (more active in high delayers) and the ventral striatum, (more active in low delayers) when they were trying to control their responses to alluring temptations.

Again, these are the same regions implicated in the "Slackers vs Go-getters" study:

Dopaminergic Mechanisms of Individual Differences in Human Effort-Based Decision-Making


27007

A 2011 brain imaging study of a sample from the original Stanford participants when they reached mid-life showed key differences between those with high delay times and those with low delay times in two areas: the prefrontal cortex (more active in high delayers) and the ventral striatum, (more active in low delayers) when they were trying to control their responses to alluring temptations.

These were some of the most famous experiments in the social sciences and if you remember correctly, in people with high dopaminergic tone had greater projections to the prefrontal cortex, the area involved in executive function, impulse control and future planning:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWabTRPr91s&feature=youtu.be&t=132

Another example of how self-control wins.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_8yKkbFCwg

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLU2W-gasUQ&feature=youtu.be
 
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Vanderbilt

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that's a big Thread here Chris :D

But in my opinion, Dopamine alone is not the problem when having ADHD, its more a GABA problem.

GABA relaxes your body and inner chatter and gives you more inner peace. Dopamine is not calm down neurotransmitter. I would even say its the opposite. The Problem with Dopamine is that people abuse too much Dopamine pushers, like caffeine, sugar and so on. It's like being addicted to coke or any other drug.

For more focus i would increase these areas in my life:

1. Sleep, check out Shawn Stevenson. People so stressed these days, they don't even realize having bad sleep and bad sleep habits.
2. Supplements: Omega 3 500mg, VitamindD3 with k2, Magnesium 400 to 600mg a day and L-Theanine is my top weapon, it increases the GABA production. Some people say in combination with coffee its really super focus. I don't drink any caffeinated things, so i can't say, you should try.
3. Check for Food allergies, it can cost your energy and focus all-day. It was so funny, after some food i was so restless, unbelievable. Blood sugar goes here hand in hand!
4. Breathing to control your nervous system, everyone with low focus and can't sit still breathes way too fast. i recommend the ocean breath 10mins a day. Begin with 2min. (check on youtube)

What i covered here is: Regeneration and Control of your nervous system. If I go in detail here it would fill 5 sites. But you can be sure it affects your Mental health massively.

100 years ago people used more their body then their brain. Today people use way to much their brain(inner chatter, worries and so on) and not enough their body. Let that sink in and start moving more. We are not built to sit all day.

If you do my recommendations for just 2 weeks you will be happy you read my post hahaha ;)
 

BellaPippin

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Wow I read the whole thing, and I watched the episodes of the YouTube you showed me, about the low dopamine tone. Mind-blown. I feel you might have given me the next piece of the puzzle. Where do I start:

There's a chance I've always had some ADHD element. As a kid and even now I'm constantly looking for something more interesting. I'd say the Big 5 "Openness" is the one that has most attributes that describe me. My attention span wasn't huge BUT it was decent and I was totally functional. And I could go for hours and hours drawing, playing make-believe, reading, practicing sports. With some help from my mom (hey I was a kid after all) I could sit down and do homework or practice piano for a while. Learning fast has always been my strong suit too, but it becomes a double-edge sword because I get bored just as fast.

Somewhere along the way I lost that to anxiety in my teens (runs in the family), being an outcast at school and depression because my parents house was toxic and then even more abusive marriage. The episode called "Less Than" rung a bell here. I got more and more isolated, put down. Less circle of friends here in the US. So less fun, less drawing, less working out. More lying in bed. More sleeping. TV isn't entertaining. I can't finish a single video game anymore, I lose interest. I can't sit down and draw for hours listening to music like I used to.

All the people that tell me that I'm just "not into X' enough don't know what they are talking about. The low Dopamine Tone thing explains why I can't find ANYTHING that gives me the spike I need to get anything to become a habit. Hence I'm just like the rats starving to death. dYou probably have a normal one so chocolate chips work. I have nothing. No TV, no sweets, no videogames, no porn, no nothing. And I'm smart enough to know that I better not try cocaine, cigarettes, alcohol etc. to cope because if THAT gives me a spike, then I'll be even more F*cked. It also explains some why the medicines I take help me with my anxiety (they calm the overactive nervous system/amygdala thus no chest pain) but not with my lack of motivation/interest.

Now what? I take the genetic test? The answer isn't to find the reward but to find how to raise my tone? According to him, if I raise my tone, normal things like working out, a small treat, should be enough again?
 
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ChrisV

ChrisV

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Somewhere along the way I lost that to anxiety in my teens (runs in the family), being an outcast at school and depression because my parents house was toxic and then even more abusive marriage. The episode called "Less Than" rung a bell here. I got more and more isolated, put down. Less circle of friends here in the US. So less fun, less drawing, less working out. More lying in bed. More sleeping. TV isn't entertaining. I can't finish a single video game anymore, I lose interest. I can't sit down and draw for hours listening to music like I used to.
So for that, a little therapy should go a long way.

Crappy memories can be considered mild trauma. One really effective trauma treatment is EMDR. Especially if the trauma is any type of serious. If there's more mild stuff there's a researcher names James Pennebaker than found a certain form of journaling effectively eliminates trauma.

27216

Jordan Peterson describing how journaling can help:

View: https://youtu.be/qa9u5t3C0AI?t=203


Journaling can be helpful for serious trauma, but for serious trauma it's really best to have someone trained nearby. DIY at your own risk.

You probably have a normal one so chocolate chips work.
Ha! Now they are, but before I did all this? Oh man. I honestly think my natural dopamine system is a practical joke from God himself. First, there are two enzymes that break down dopamine. COMT and MAO. Having the fast genetic variant of either is dangerous. I have both.

Screen Shot 2019-09-07 at 2.52.31 PM.png

But it gets worse. I have a MTHRF risk Allele. So I only produce about 30% of the dopamine I should anyway. AND on top of all that, I have the Fast Dopamine Transporter (DAT) gene.

So in English: essentially whatever little tiny amount of dopamine my brain is able to produce is literally rocketed via the DAT toward TWO overactive enzymes that completely obliterate it. My dopamine levels naturally are probably ~5% of what they should be.

You couldn't have designed a worse system. The only explanation I can think of is a prank from God or Darwin or whoever.

Most of my life I've been pathologically lazy.

Now what? I take the genetic test? The answer isn't to find the reward but to find how to raise my tone? According to him, if I raise my tone, normal things like working out, a small treat, should be enough again?
Bingo. Part of depression is just not being motivated to do normally rewarding things. Depression can be caused by a million things, but if it's dopaminergic it works the way that video describes.

You can do any genetic test, but this is the one I recommend:


Either that or you can do the 23andme test and I can take a look at it and tell you what each one means, but the GenEd one is great. Very thorough and goes to a good cause. It's owned by the same doctor who made those videos. He's amazing. If it's too pricey, you can get the $99 23andme one and I can interpret it.
 

BellaPippin

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So for that, a little therapy should go a long way.

Crappy memories can be considered mild trauma. One really effective trauma treatment is EMDR. Especially if the trauma is any type of serious. If there's more mild stuff there's a researcher names James Pennebaker than found a certain form of journaling effectively eliminates trauma.

View attachment 27216

Jordan Peterson describing how journaling can help:

View: https://youtu.be/qa9u5t3C0AI?t=203


Journaling can be helpful for serious trauma, but for serious trauma it's really best to have someone trained nearby. DIY at your own risk.


Ha! Now they are, but before I did all this? Oh man. I honestly think my natural dopamine system is a practical joke from God himself. First, there are two enzymes that break down dopamine. COMT and MAO. Having the fast genetic variant of either is dangerous. I have both.

View attachment 27223

But it gets worse. I have a MTHRF risk Allele. So I only produce about 30% of the dopamine I should anyway. AND on top of all that, I have the Fast Dopamine Transporter (DAT) gene.

So in English: essentially whatever little tiny amount of dopamine my brain is able to produce is literally rocketed via the DAT toward TWO overactive enzymes that completely obliterate it. My dopamine levels naturally are probably ~5% of what they should be.

You couldn't have designed a worse system. The only explanation I can think of is a prank from God or Darwin or whoever.

Most of my life I've been pathologically lazy.


Bingo. Part of depression is just not being motivated to do normally rewarding things. Depression can be caused by a million things, but if it's dopaminergic it works the way that video describes.

You can do any genetic test, but this is the one I recommend:


Either that or you can do the 23andme test and I can take a look at it and tell you what each one means, but the GenEd one is great. Very thorough and goes to a good cause. It's owned by the same doctor who made those videos. He's amazing. If it's too pricey, you can get the $99 23andme one and I can interpret it.
I'm onto all that, the therapy, the journaling...the meditating, the meds... lol

I'll try to do it sometime soon. It is pricey but might as well do it right, hoping it will show something useful...
 

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ChrisV

ChrisV

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that's a big Thread here Chris :D
Yes, but the main essence of it is just in the first 4 posts. The rest is for people who want to dig deeper.

But in my opinion, Dopamine alone is not the problem when having ADHD, its more a GABA problem.

GABA relaxes your body and inner chatter and gives you more inner peace. Dopamine is not calm down neurotransmitter. I would even say its the opposite. The Problem with Dopamine is that people abuse too much Dopamine pushers, like caffeine, sugar and so on. It's like being addicted to coke or any other drug.

For more focus i would increase these areas in my life:

1. Sleep, check out Shawn Stevenson. People so stressed these days, they don't even realize having bad sleep and bad sleep habits.
2. Supplements: Omega 3 500mg, VitamindD3 with k2, Magnesium 400 to 600mg a day and L-Theanine is my top weapon, it increases the GABA production. Some people say in combination with coffee its really super focus. I don't drink any caffeinated things, so i can't say, you should try.
3. Check for Food allergies, it can cost your energy and focus all-day. It was so funny, after some food i was so restless, unbelievable. Blood sugar goes here hand in hand!
4. Breathing to control your nervous system, everyone with low focus and can't sit still breathes way too fast. i recommend the ocean breath 10mins a day. Begin with 2min. (check on youtube)

What i covered here is: Regeneration and Control of your nervous system. If I go in detail here it would fill 5 sites. But you can be sure it affects your Mental health massively.

100 years ago people used more their body then their brain. Today people use way to much their brain(inner chatter, worries and so on) and not enough their body. Let that sink in and start moving more. We are not built to sit all day.

If you do my recommendations for just 2 weeks you will be happy you read my post hahaha ;)
So GABA has more to do with Anxiety.


GABA is kind of the "brakes" of the neurotransmitter world. So yes, GABA quiets the inner chatter.. but that's not really what ADHD is. That's Anxiety.

It sounds similar because you would think that ADHD has to do with hyperactivity, but actually by the time someone with ADHD reaches adulthood, hyperactivity is virtually non-existent. Adult ADHD is totally different than childhood ADHD (I fast-forwarded to the right timestamp here: )

View: https://youtu.be/SCAGc-rkIfo?t=1295

GABA plays a role, but it's really not the root cause. And by focusing on GABA it will likely help any anxiety that may be there but it won't affect the other things I spoke about.
 

Tourmaline

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Great video. Does make sense that there are some legit upsides!
 

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