Dopamine. The missing piece of the success puzzle. (Improve Locus of Control, Motivation, Self-control)

[Bertram]

At the beginning and end of each day, it's your life and your choices.
Let the readers and market decide what is best for them, people might need some data, tools, products, whatever to help them along in gaining an understanding of themselves.

Whatever helps in an individuals self-education.

No one's pushing anything, present options and let a person choose for themselves.


I initially chose not to reply so as not to interfere in any way with OP's message on this thread, but I changed my mind in the interests of adding value to this thread (hopefully).

I think it is wiser in life not to think of things in a zero-sum manner unless unbiased data shows it truly is. * Not sure what the data & research is on that but perhaps you could enlighten us on this in a thread.

My intention was to merely present choices, options or alternatives for individuals to consider and make their own decisions accordingly.

I believe in utilizing whatever works and constantly pushing the boundaries of our reality, constantly testing, iterating, improving and learning as we all go along in life.

Did my comment sound critical of your content? It was misdirected. I'm with you about the fact that our lives are self-determined and each one of us no less than a work of art. OP thinks we are machines and 100% the product of genetics with no room left over for consciousness or even environmental influences. Finally the scientology emerges.
Au contraire we are works of art. Stardust.

 

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[Tourmaline]

Do you differentiate between people with ADHD and people that procrastinate/get distracted?

Or are you putting forth that in essence, 'People give themselves ADHD'.

 

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[ChrisV]

that's not what he's saying at all...

He's saying genetics have some influence, now here's what you can do about it specifically based on your genetics.

Of course you should do all the other general stuff too.

But I think there's a space between, 'genetics determine nothing' and 'genetics determine everything' that is objective and useful and empowering.

Genetics are the hand you're dealt. You have zero control over the hand you're dealt.

But how you play it is your choice.

A good poker player can make just as much money off a shitty hand as he can a perfect hand.

I initially chose not to reply so as not to interfere in any way with OP's message on this thread, but I changed my mind in the interests of adding value to this thread (hopefully).

Add anything you'd like. This is a discussion thread. I'm pretty much done with what I had to say, so anything people would like to add is fair game.

 

[ChrisV]

Somewhere along the way I lost that to anxiety in my teens (runs in the family), being an outcast at school and depression because my parents house was toxic and then even more abusive marriage. The episode called "Less Than" rung a bell here. I got more and more isolated, put down. Less circle of friends here in the US. So less fun, less drawing, less working out. More lying in bed. More sleeping. TV isn't entertaining. I can't finish a single video game anymore, I lose interest. I can't sit down and draw for hours listening to music like I used to.

So for that, a little therapy should go a long way.

Crappy memories can be considered mild trauma. One really effective trauma treatment is EMDR. Especially if the trauma is any type of serious. If there's more mild stuff there's a researcher names James Pennebaker than found a certain form of journaling effectively eliminates trauma.



Jordan Peterson describing how journaling can help:

View: https://youtu.be/qa9u5t3C0AI?t=203


Journaling can be helpful for serious trauma, but for serious trauma it's really best to have someone trained nearby. DIY at your own risk.

You probably have a normal one so chocolate chips work.

Ha! Now they are, but before I did all this? Oh man. I honestly think my natural dopamine system is a practical joke from God himself. First, there are two enzymes that break down dopamine. COMT and MAO. Having the fast genetic variant of either is dangerous. I have both.



But it gets worse. I have a MTHRF risk Allele. So I only produce about 30% of the dopamine I should anyway. AND on top of all that, I have the Fast Dopamine Transporter (DAT) gene.

So in English: essentially whatever little tiny amount of dopamine my brain is able to produce is literally rocketed via the DAT toward TWO overactive enzymes that completely obliterate it. My dopamine levels naturally are probably ~5% of what they should be.

You couldn't have designed a worse system. The only explanation I can think of is a prank from God or Darwin or whoever.

Most of my life I've been pathologically lazy.

Now what? I take the genetic test? The answer isn't to find the reward but to find how to raise my tone? According to him, if I raise my tone, normal things like working out, a small treat, should be enough again?

Bingo. Part of depression is just not being motivated to do normally rewarding things. Depression can be caused by a million things, but if it's dopaminergic it works the way that video describes.

You can do any genetic test, but this is the one I recommend:

GenEd Systems

www.genedsystems.com

Either that or you can do the 23andme test and I can take a look at it and tell you what each one means, but the GenEd one is great. Very thorough and goes to a good cause. It's owned by the same doctor who made those videos. He's amazing. If it's too pricey, you can get the $99 23andme one and I can interpret it.

 

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[ChrisV]

that's a big Thread here Chris

Yes, but the main essence of it is just in the first 4 posts. The rest is for people who want to dig deeper.

But in my opinion, Dopamine alone is not the problem when having ADHD, its more a GABA problem.

GABA relaxes your body and inner chatter and gives you more inner peace. Dopamine is not calm down neurotransmitter. I would even say its the opposite. The Problem with Dopamine is that people abuse too much Dopamine pushers, like caffeine, sugar and so on. It's like being addicted to coke or any other drug.

For more focus i would increase these areas in my life:

1. Sleep, check out Shawn Stevenson. People so stressed these days, they don't even realize having bad sleep and bad sleep habits.
2. Supplements: Omega 3 500mg, VitamindD3 with k2, Magnesium 400 to 600mg a day and L-Theanine is my top weapon, it increases the GABA production. Some people say in combination with coffee its really super focus. I don't drink any caffeinated things, so i can't say, you should try.
3. Check for Food allergies, it can cost your energy and focus all-day. It was so funny, after some food i was so restless, unbelievable. Blood sugar goes here hand in hand!
4. Breathing to control your nervous system, everyone with low focus and can't sit still breathes way too fast. i recommend the ocean breath 10mins a day. Begin with 2min. (check on youtube)

What i covered here is: Regeneration and Control of your nervous system. If I go in detail here it would fill 5 sites. But you can be sure it affects your Mental health massively.

100 years ago people used more their body then their brain. Today people use way to much their brain(inner chatter, worries and so on) and not enough their body. Let that sink in and start moving more. We are not built to sit all day.

If you do my recommendations for just 2 weeks you will be happy you read my post hahaha

So GABA has more to do with Anxiety.

The role of GABA in anxiety disorders - PubMed

Anxiety stems from and perpetuates dysregulation of neurobiological systems, but the exact mechanisms of anxiety disorders are still only partially understood. Gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) is the primary inhibitory neurotransmitter known to counterbalance the action of the excitatory...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

GABA is kind of the "brakes" of the neurotransmitter world. So yes, GABA quiets the inner chatter.. but that's not really what ADHD is. That's Anxiety.

It sounds similar because you would think that ADHD has to do with hyperactivity, but actually by the time someone with ADHD reaches adulthood, hyperactivity is virtually non-existent. Adult ADHD is totally different than childhood ADHD (I fast-forwarded to the right timestamp here: )

View: https://youtu.be/SCAGc-rkIfo?t=1295

GABA plays a role, but it's really not the root cause. And by focusing on GABA it will likely help any anxiety that may be there but it won't affect the other things I spoke about.

 

[ChrisV]

Great video on this with Ron Sterling, MD.

Also, why not:

 

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[Tourmaline]

Great video. Does make sense that there are some legit upsides!

 

[ChrisV]

What I've already done:

• I've fixed my sleep.
• I've fixed my diet.
• I've started exercising daily.
• I've reduced sugar intake.
• I do yoga and meditate from time to time.

Yea, those are the low-hanging fruit.

These guys test for all the genes i the Dopamine Pathway:

GenEd Systems

www.genedsystems.com

It's the second 'Addiction Panel' one, otherwise they just test for MTHFR.

Or you can use 23andme raw data if you know how to interpret it, or I can help.

How do I find a good specialist to consult about the issue? Would it be a psychiatrist? I'm from Eastern Europe, most of the psychiatrists here are just drug-prescribers.

That's a really good question. What works for me is co-advocating. Get in with a good psychiatrist and bounce ideas back and forth. Like I'll talk to them, bring a genetic report, print out various studies.

So I might bring in a genetic report and a study saying ______ gene predicts _____ medication response, but I also realize this approach might be a pain in the a$$ for many people.

It's tough because genetic testing in medicine is really cutting edge stuff and in the near future every doctor will do it, but for now there are very few who do.

I'm gonna make a post on how to interpret genetic results, and what to do based on the different results.

 

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[AniM]

@ChrisV thanks for sharing that Ending Addiction video series. Watched a few episodes and I'm enjoying it. As someone who has had addictive tendencies it's very eye opening.

I've gotten a lot out of this thread and am working through some of my own behavior issues. I have a big problem with sleep and routine, which causes other problems for me like procrastination, lack of exercise, etc.

Just started Jordan Peterson's self-authoring program yesterday.

 

[AndreiRx]

Hey everybody!

To get out of the theoretical framework, which I appreciated because it explains a lot of my observations.

I wanted to ask everyone what’s their experience with using music to prime your mood for whatever activity? I mean it sure works inthe gym!

Thanks!

 

[PapaGang]

@ChrisV thanks for sharing that Ending Addiction video series. Watched a few episodes and I'm enjoying it. As someone who has had addictive tendencies it's very eye opening.

I've gotten a lot out of this thread and am working through some of my own behavior issues. I have a big problem with sleep and routine, which causes other problems for me like procrastination, lack of exercise, etc.

Just started Jordan Peterson's self-authoring program yesterday.

The self-authoring program is pretty cool. I just started it.

 

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[PapaGang]

Right. But how do we use this kind of effect to drive ourselves out of procrastination for example? That’s my point

Do you have a kind of music that puts you in the mood for... marketing?

Here's what I do: I create a reward when I finish my marketing. Next time I have to do marketing, I look forward to finishing it so I get the reward, PLUS knowing that I got shit done. There's nothing like knowing you did something really productive, and you set aside time to enjoy life and have fun.

 

[Ismail941]

@ChrisV

What do you think about this one?

 

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[Kevin88660]

Chris, thank you for the research. Very good stuffs that integrate with your personal reflection.

However I do see a false dichotomy in conscientiousness vs impulsiveness.

They are not really polar opposite of one another.

Conscientiousness is more like, pushing the level of tolerance in taking pain and suffering for a purpose. Athlete, hardworking straight A students, CEO who work 19 hours of none sleeping hours a day...

Staying away from temptation also has an individual genetic component- all temptations are not the same to different genetic make up. A person who craves for sugar badly could have no interest in cheating on his wife while a sex addict at the same time could be a lean individual who does exercise daily.

Let me just give you a counter example that is not hard to imagine: a High paying manager who works 14 hours a day Who could not stay away from the temptation to cheat on his wife and end up with a million dollar divorce. Conscientious at his job but poor in combating sexual urge when lonely.

I will be more interested if you have researched on “work ethic” genes or hormones...I think thats what is going to make an impact more than impulse control.

 

[msrashid]

just check the video

Sorry to burst your bubble (but in fairness my bubble was busted as well) dopamine detox is not scientifically related to dopamine but closer to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/getdisciplined/comments/g1qae0 View: https://www.reddit.com/r/getdisciplined/comments/g1qae0/advice_i_did_a_dopamine_fast_and_did_some/

 

[ChrisV]

Hey Chris, I had to make an account after reading this mind blowing thread. I like you have gone through basically all the research on discipline, personality and motivation. I've tried a ton of different techniques, but nothing beat one 20 mg dose of Adderall XR. The desire to do things now versus later seems to be the key to industriousness, which apparently doesn't have a psychological or biological model according to Jordan Peterson. It actually emerged as a consequence of factor analyzing the linguistic pool of various personality statements.

You actually might be on to the cutting edge of personality research right here, if you could research industriousness as it's predicted by dopamine levels. I'm actually really interested in increasing this dopamine tone that you speak of, is there anyway to get a hold of you to help me analyze my 23andMe data? I tried to PM you, but couldn't figure out how to do that, maybe because I'm a brand new dude with no posts that it's not available to me.

Wow, I'm so sorry.. I just saw this! I hope you're still on the forum!

It's at you.23andme.com/tools/data/

And if you ever lose that link just Google "23andMe raw data download"

 

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[starttoday123]

Insights:

Extraverted people are significantly more emotionally stable (.62)

Conscientious people are significantly more emotionally stable (.65)

Agreeable people are moderately more emotionally stable (.44)

Extraverted people are slightly more agreeable (.24)

Open people are moderately more intelligent (.33)

Conscientious people are slightly more intelligent (.29)

Emotionally stable people are moderately more satisfied with their jobs (.26,) have moderately higher incomes (.32,) have moderately higher status (.27,) and enjoy moderately greater intrinsic career success (.34)

Extraverted people make moderately more money (.24)

Open people have moderately higher Occupational Status (.26)

Conscientious people have moderately higher incomes (.34) and significantly higher occupational status (.48) and significantly higher extrinsic career success (.50)

Intelligent people (as measured by g-mental ability) have moderately higher job satisfaction (.25) and income (.29) and have significantly higher occupational status (.48) and extrinsic career success (.53)

Wow 62% but its a statistic that depends on how accurate the testing is that determines extroverted from introverted

 

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[ChrisV]

Nice work man. Did you happen to take any adderall for writing this all out? Jokes aside, tons of good information.

Lol no. I've been working on it for a while in OneNote. Then I just moved it here.

I know it's long, but it's so core to everything success related that I had to cover all aspects.

This is some great stuff, and I'm just about ready to start extracting dopamine from the brains of passers-by!

I have more questions but I will hold until the end of the "to be continueds".

Ask away

 

[Bertram]

I don't know that anyone on this forum is going to care to read papers in Nature Human Behavior. If anybody does let me know. But I think there's a sweet spot in knowing your audience, and not having people get bogged down with too much technicality.
@Bertram

Thanks for that man..Definitely appreciate that... i just had to figure a lot of this out for my own good. Like I said, a lot of this is from my own personal 'trying to figure this out' stuff.

I totally 1000% agree with you regarding pop science. If I post the popular articles (Scientific American, New York Times, etc) it's because I feel like they're more digestible for people who want to look into it here. The complexity of this topic is already above what's usually on business forums and I usually try to stay away from that, but for this I think the topic is so essential that I have to.

But I agree. Half the time people should barely trust the primary research (flaws, biases, errors) but to have that filtered through another set of biases from popular media reporting, yea just no. They get so much shit wrong. Although certain outlets are pretty good (SciAm, NYT.) You know? I don't know that anyone on this forum is going to care to read papers in Nature Human Behavior. If anybody does let me know. But I think there's a sweet spot in knowing your audience, and not having people get bogged down with too much technicality.

So like Dopamine 'tone.' Yea it doesn't make sense fully. Dopamine where exactly? DA in the PFC has a totally different effect than DA to the NAc. But I think that's too much detail to go into here and it's not essential for a business forum. I already threw enough crap around to start going into Mesolimbic pathway, or MAOA, or COMT, etc. So yes, it's an oversimplification. But I think a useful one. This is already 4 posts long. And I think tone is a useful metaphor.

And Dopamine Tone is a term that's used in the literature as well:

Role of dopamine tone in the pursuit of brain stimulation reward - PubMed

Dopaminergic neurons contribute to intracranial self-stimulation (ICSS) and other reward-seeking behaviors, but it is not yet known where dopaminergic neurons intervene in the neural circuitry underlying reward pursuit or which psychological processes are involved. In rats working for electrical...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It just refers to the baseline transmission. There is no steady state, but you can make generalizations like "this persons transmission, on average, is lower than normal." It's like you were looking at a map of traffic in a specific city. It's so complicated and certain streets are full, some are empty. But sometimes you have to generalize like "traffic is heavy tonight" or "the traffic is usually bad in LA" where you have to sacrifice specificity for usefully communicating a message. That's where broader abstractions are useful.

Thanks for your thoughts

You're right, people generally want a synthesis of the primary research, not the technical discussion.
Sorry, but "dopamine tone" as used on the Internet is 1000% neurotrash.
Pubmed promotes neurotrash.
That's because it is more of a search engine now than a credentialing scientific organization.
That article is from J Neuroscience. Boy is it misunderstood. Dopa tone does not refer to any levels of dopamine at all, or the presence of dopamine, or even the actual effects of dopa. It used in an abstract model of neural excitation of neurons hungry for dopamine ... which are actually inhibitory mechanisms by and large. Dopa neurons mostly make things not happen. Their excitation is inconsistent or rather really, really complex.
In this lab rodent *drug study,*drugs produced a level of tonicity, or tone if you want to use a prettier and newer word, so that the reward mechanism could be explored.
So dopa tone in this research only meant a level of excitabity under controlled drug conditions for the sake of measurement.
Another situation using the same cutesy term also has no comparison to normal or abnormal levels of dopa. In this case dopaminergic tone, or rather a neurotransmitter excitation level, was created by the condition of the mice being genetically altered to have a massive presence of dopamine excitation sites. And the animals were raised to have no existence beyond pushinv two levers. Again, it was not a study about having more or less dopamine in the brain, limbs, or anywhere, in that situation compared to others. Induced by heavy drugs or by knocking out DNA threads to produce an extreme mental state.
There is no dopamine tonic state observed in either study.
So just imagine how someone reading about dopa tone in a book of yours might pause and think of say, muscle tone, and then imagine that there is a neural pathway which can produce behavior all depending on being dopamine strong: toned up or out of tone, like muscle. Nothing is more mistaken. Almost nothing.
It is so unnatural to resist the idea and not go along, because of the seductive nonsense of neurotrash.
That's why I hope you don't read any more of it and work on creating your own value by trusting yourself with primary research and your ability to think with data.
I'd like to read the book that I think you might have in mind.

 

[Bertram]

@Bertram

Thanks for that man..Definitely appreciate that... i just had to figure a lot of this out for my own good. Like I said, a lot of this is from my own personal 'trying to figure this out' stuff.

I totally 1000% agree with you regarding pop science. If I post the popular articles (Scientific American, New York Times, etc) it's because I feel like they're more digestible for people who want to look into it here. The complexity of this topic is already above what's usually on business forums and I usually try to stay away from that, but for this I think the topic is so essential that I have to.

But I agree. Half the time people should barely trust the primary research (flaws, biases, errors) but to have that filtered through another set of biases from popular media reporting, yea just no. They get so much shit wrong. Although certain outlets are pretty good (SciAm, NYT.) You know? I don't know that anyone on this forum is going to care to read papers in Nature Human Behavior. If anybody does let me know. But I think there's a sweet spot in knowing your audience, and not having people get bogged down with too much technicality.

So like Dopamine 'tone.' Yea it doesn't make sense fully. Dopamine where exactly? DA in the PFC has a totally different effect than DA to the NAc. But I think that's too much detail to go into here and it's not essential for a business forum. I already threw enough crap around to start going into Mesolimbic pathway, or MAOA, or COMT, etc. So yes, it's an oversimplification. But I think a useful one. This is already 4 posts long. And I think tone is a useful metaphor.

And Dopamine Tone is a term that's used in the literature as well:

Role of dopamine tone in the pursuit of brain stimulation reward - PubMed

Dopaminergic neurons contribute to intracranial self-stimulation (ICSS) and other reward-seeking behaviors, but it is not yet known where dopaminergic neurons intervene in the neural circuitry underlying reward pursuit or which psychological processes are involved. In rats working for electrical...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Dopamine Tone

Tonic Dopamine

It just refers to the baseline transmission. There is no steady state, but you can make generalizations like "this persons transmission, on average, is lower than normal." It's like you were looking at a map of traffic in a specific city. It's so complicated and certain streets are full, some are empty. But sometimes you have to generalize like "traffic is heavy tonight" or "the traffic is usually bad in LA" where you have to sacrifice specificity for usefully communicating a message. That's where broader abstractions are useful.

No-one except you and a few people are even going to understand this reply lol, so that's why I try to shy away.

Thanks for your thoughts

Crap I just wrote such a good reply and dropped it. Crap.
Pubmed used to be a credentialing publication, but now it is a search engine for god knows what.
The article is from J Neuroscience.
Dopamine tone on the Internet is 1000% neurotrash.
These researchers usex it in an abstract model to conduct neurobiology research. The term does not refer to dopa levels at all. Dopamine usually switches things off. This research used drugs to induce a preplanned, specific mental state in mice so their dopa neurons were in a specific zone. Neither a good one or a bad one. The purpose was to follow two out if many conditions for neurotransmission related to learning. It was not an optimized mental state.
Another study using the term tone because tonicity, the correct word, is not cool sounding, also created a specific level of neuronal excitation - different one - to explore neural pathways. The point was not the level of excitation. By the way excitation refers to both quantity and level of excitation. K. So in this case the excitory state was due to the fact that the mice were genetically altered to be hyperdopminergic and were raised to have no existence behaviorwise beyond pressing two levers.
So do pamine tone is not a positive.
It is so compelling to associate tone with fitness. A toned muscle, a toned neural pathway.
Nothing could be more wrong. Dopamine tone is not about dopamine levels. You were seduced by the sirens of neurotrash. Just go for it and read primary research. This thread has so much high value already. I hope you can just trust your mind. You'll be a free bird along the ocean synthesizing endless sparkling data.
Just imagine all the bogus ideas about dopamine tone that would be floating around if you used neurotrash in your book. Good luck.
What's next?

 

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[BaiAnrui]

Very interesting, tnx for sharing

 

[QLM3]

Thank you for this thought provoking thread Chris.
Feels like you are onto something really big.

 

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[Ismail941]

Chris - Man you are the Psychologist
DAMN!

 

[Bertram]

I'm such a dumbass. I forgot to link to a Personality test.

You can take this personality test for free

This page has moved

Here's how they break down:

View attachment 26364

Also something instersting I found. Jordan Belfort (The Wolf of Wall Street) on Impulsivity and Delaying Gratification and how it relates to success (and failure - 8:58 in video)

View: https://youtu.be/iKMpLFCbLz4?t=538




Ha.. it's cool. I started reading The Craving Cure and I wasn't that impressed, but it's gotten good reviews on Amazon. But Mood Cure is a bonafide classic, and even I have some issues with that book, it's still great for the most part.

Re: Adderall - I said a few times in this thread i do not recommend Adderall, whether or not you have ADHD. It's a Dopamine releasing agent, which means it can (and will) deplete the tank. Usually what happens with Adderall is people have to keep upping the dose for it to keep working until they're at like 90 mgs and run into toxicity issues. Adderall is Amphetamine. It's not a good long term solution, or even a good short term one. The only reason I even mentioned it was to illustrate the effects of dopamine on motivation, focus and performance. By getting your DA levels in check in healthier ways, you can have the effects of Adderall without the major side effects of Adderall.

Hi Chris what do you find to be the long term problems with Adderall?

 

[Raveling]

So most importantly, what can you do about all this? That's the biggest thing of course.

Well this is not medical advice and you should talk to your doctor before making any changes… but of you’re really serious about fixing this, I highly suggest getting a genetic test and seeing where the problems are. Your dopamine tone is critical and largely genetically determined. There are a lot of things that can go wrong genetically with dopamine neurotransmission. I'll list them just in case anyone wants to do further research, but certain genes make it hard for the body to synthesize dopamine (MTHFR, Tyrosine Hydroxylase,) dopamine may break it down too fast (SLC6A3, MAOA, MAOB, COMT, DBH,) your brain might not produce enough dopamine receptors for it to attach to (DRD1-DRD5, opioid receptors,) among other issues.

There’s a different solution to each of these genes.

If you have the MTHFR gene, I’ve heard L-Methylfolate is a miracle (in some cases can completely fix dopamine issues)

View: https://youtu.be/efFtviwOTaI?t=15


Genetics is a complex topic. You’re going to have to research it yourself or post questions here.

Diet can be a factor too. Dopamine is synthesized from a protein called Tyrosine. So if you don't get adequate intake of Tyrosine, it can make it hard for your body to produce it.

View attachment 26219

After watching the Ending Addiction video series, I’ve since made friends over email with Dr. Howard Wetsman, and he has a genetic analysis company that does just this (figures out problems with Dopamine neurotransmission.) The link is: Products – GenEd Systems While his products focus on addiction, and is only in it's early stages, the same solutions apply to the issues we’ve spoken about here.

Otherwise, here are some other tactics than may help regardless of genetics. I'll treat it into "probably will help" and "might help."

Probably will help:

Exercise - Not only does it boost DA, but in addition exercise increases the number of receptors in the brain which actually has very very pronounced effects.. it essentially raises DA neurotransmission in two separate ways [1] [2] [3]
Meditation [1] (This study found a SIXTY-FIVE PERCENT increase in dopamine release after meditation, although that high of a number may not be typical) [2][3]
Getting 8 hours sleep is just good for everything
Reduce sugar (sugar causes a dopamine spike, but down regulates receptors.. causing really bad long-term effects, switch to fruits which don't cause spikes) [1]
Plenty of sunlight! [1] [2] Sunlight
Setting Small Goals (breaking your big goals into chunks) [1]
Setting S.M.A.R.T. Goals - Specific, Measurable, Assignable, Realistic, Time-related – specify when the result(s) can be achieved.
Eating Protein (foods high in phenylalanine/tyrosine) [1]

Might help:

Listen to music [1] [2] [3]
Reducing Saturated Fat [1] (saturated fat is NOT as evil as the media made it out to be so wouldn’t go crazy,) but one study found that rats that consumed 50% of their calories from saturated fat had reduced dopamine signaling in the reward areas of their brain, compared to animals receiving the same amount of calories from unsaturated fat
Probiotics [1] [2] [3]
Supplements: L-Tyrosine, L-Phenylalinine, L-theanine, Phosphatidylserine, Curcumin, Ginkgo Biloba, Mucuna Pruriens,

More: 54 Supplements & Drugs/Agonists to Increase Dopamine - Selfhacked (Selfhacked is, in my opinion, a great resource for stuff like this)

But still, I think getting genetic testing is the single biggest thing if there are any serious issues. Genetic testing and analysis is a full blown solution to this. The other biggies are Exercise, Meditation, Diet, Hydration, and proper goal setting (S.M.A.R.T. goals.)

You can also do your own searches on this stuff, just make sure the information is from a reliable, mainstream or scientific source. If the website uses a bunch of emotional, bombastic or excited language, be very careful. Real scientists are boring lol. They use really boring big words and rarely make grand statements. I find this custom search engine to be helpful, and has a Pro-science option in the drop down.

Search News based on Highly Factual Reporting

Search High or Very High Factual News Sites only and ignore the fake news propaganda on the net. Only sites with High or Very High reporting are included. Each site is classified into the following biases: Left, Left-Center, Least (or Center), Right-Center, Right and Pro-Science.

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If you feel like you have serious attention issues, get tested for ADHD because Inattentive Type ADD and Low-Conscientiousness correlate at the .8 level and if you remember, a .8 correlation is astronomical. They’re essentially synonyms. Your doctor can help you with this. And get tested of all the subtypes of ADHD (ADHD-Combined, ADHD-Primarily Inattentive and a related new disorder called SCT)

You’re going to have to do some research on your own or post your questions here. If you want me to cover any of the other personality traits, I’d be more than happy to.

For now here are a few basic tips regarding the other traits:

If you’re too high in Agreeableness (you’re a pushover) Assertiveness Training is a great solution.

If you’re too low in Openness to experience, I’m not going to condone drug use, but I’ve heard (*cough cough*) a single LSD has been shown to improve that trait - Live Science - A Single Psychedelic Drug Trip Can Change Your Personality for Years. Google “LSD and Openness” for more info

For Neuroticism, therapy may be helpful.

For general personality change, check out this article: Psychology Today - Can an Introvert Ever Change?

Any questions, feel free to post here.

Hope this is helpful!

Thanks Chris,

All the stuff you say about meditation, sleep, nutrition... Is great and comes under the category of NO SHIT for anyone wanting to stay healthy and who's literate probably already knows.

That's not a dis BTW, it's more like high 5 to you and a dis to everyone NOT doing all of the cost-free behavior and lifestyle stuff most young children know from their moms, yet fail to apply and act on.

Genetic testing, wow, expensive ( I think) and unnecessary at least until you have done all the free stuff. Same for the doctor.

That said, it's a good option for a more complete and thorough solution as you said above. I just hate it when people are left thinking that their destiny in anything is in the control of others'. While that is sometimes true and you should exercise those options if you can't solve them yourself. It's a sign of an evolved person to recognize when they can't help themselves, just as it is to recognize, you usually CAN help yourself. Thank you for qualifying it Chris, respect.

For ADHD there's no question I am. Your advice about the doctor for that, unless he's a specialist is well, terrible IMHO.

ADHD meds are shit and do more harm than good in all but the most severe cases. I can tell you from direct experience as someone with ADHD and 15 years dealing with child hypers in my classes, that MOST need to be managed correctly and learn to manage themselves, but do not need drugs. If they do, you should seek them out, but the drug-free options are FREE, and more importantly, are usually sufficient, plus, it's a matter of education and possibly training or practice and ZERO side effects. If it doesn't work, you can still go to your doctor and get yourself or your kid stoned ( WITH side effects ).

If you honestly think the pharmaceutical industry puts your best interest, health or well being ahead of profit at ANY expense, you haven't been paying attention.

For the following I've answered as though you were referring to me specifically, is that correct?

I'm low agreeableness, not high, just in case my posts don't make that obvious, if anything, I need to manage being intentionally agreeable, which I can do just fine in most cases. UNLESS I decide I just don't care about the fallout, in which case I speak my mind knowing the potential ramifications;-)

Conscientiousness, I'm high, not low. And while OCEAN is the most scientifically validated personality type system around, I still laugh at it for being shockingly wrong often. Several of the predictions say I'm all but impossible, that my personality can't exist because the systems says I can't, but I haven't blinked out of existence...yet;-)

So IF this is the best system for measuring personality, and it is, AND it predicts that an ADHD person SHOULD BE low on conscientiousness, or is at the very least that someone with ADHD yet high conscientiousness is improbable, either I'm a very F*cking exceptional snowflake....OR the test fails to accurately predict something that REALLY EXISTS.

THEREFORE, "All models are wrong, but some are useful" George E.P. Box, or my own version..."All models are incomplete. but some are useful." Tim B. Green ( me;-)

OCEAN is the best we have, but it's FAR from magic and equally far from accurate or right in many situations. I just read a boastful article recently about big data finding four main personality types, weird, I'm none of them-

To be fair it did say people " tended to cluster" around four types, so at least, they weren't so irresponsible to say there ARE four personality types, but there are four MAIN types.

I'll address SMART goals and most goal-setting stuff in my own post on that topic another time because my own position and approach is controversial, and entirely my own, like my fitness stuff.

To be clear, SMART goals are better than no goals and far better than most, but after years applying them, GE ( I think it was GE ) realized SMART was insufficient and took a cue from the Japanese by adding stretch goals to their arsenal, why? Because SMART is a model and is therefore incomplete.

SMART is clever, but add-ons like Stretch goals ( which would be excluded from SMART goals by definition ) because they're not measurable, realistic or timebound in the sense that SMART goals require, aka you're forced to use to apple the SMART system and The One Thing and makes for a more complete and therefore more useful, though still incomplete model for setting effective goals.

I'll explain that in my thread on goal setting ( no promises as to when, but I will eventually do it ).

Chris, IFF I was mistaken in my assumption about some of these comments being a direct reference to me, let me know, because it means some of my self-referenced responses don't apply to your post. If however, they do, I'd appreciate your verification of the same.

timbgreen

 

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[ChrisV]

Hi Chris what do you find to be the long term problems with Adderall?

My personal experience, or in general?

My personal experience is that we had to continually increase the dose to get the same effects, but that's also a common complaint.

 

[ChrisV]

Chris, IFF I was mistaken in my assumption about some of these comments being a direct reference to me, let me know, because it means some of my self-referenced responses don't apply to your post. If however, they do, I'd appreciate your verification of the same.

Nothing thus far was directed at you.

Also genetic testing is $99 from 23andme

So IF this is the best system for measuring personality, and it is, AND it predicts that an ADHD person SHOULD BE low on conscientiousness, or is at the very least that someone with ADHD yet high conscientiousness is improbable, either I'm a very F*cking exceptional snowflake....OR the test fails to accurately predict something that REALLY EXISTS.

A .5 correlation does not mean every single data point falls on the regression line. That's a 1.0 correlation which i explained in my first post, almost never exist with this type of stuff.



A .5 correlation implies a strong general trend, but by definition there will be outliers, and datapoint that are away from the regression line. It absolutely, doesn't not mean that "everyone with ADHD is low in conscientiousness." Again, that would be a 1.0 correlation. Plus the fact that ADHD is just generally a cluster of symptoms and there's no real objective way of testing for it.

Also also, the .8 correlation is for Inattentive type ADHD (colloquially referred to as ADD,) which is different from ADHD with Hyperactivity.

 

[ChrisV]

Do you think I haven't been TRYING to do that for over 50 years?? Some people (maybe including you) don't have this problem. That doesn't mean ALL people can "fix" the problem with a simple application of will. People are different. You may be very disciplined/motivated but I've had very little success with "deciding to" be that way myself.

(My brother, a typical type-A hyper-productive type, just doesn't understand this. It's easy for him, so obviously it's just easy, so if you don't do it, obviously you're lazy or not trying. He typically asks me questions like "Well why don't you just ..." One time I shot back "Well why don't you just read a damn book?" (He's fairly badly dyslexic.) That shut him up fast. It started to dawn on him that maybe other people have different challenges than he does.)

Yes, I *CAN* work hard at it and change my behaviors, and I do it frequently. I can hold my breath, too. But it's unsustainable and I can't keep it up. Sooner or later I have to breathe. Sooner or later I fall off the wagon and revert back to my "normal" behaviors, and I have never found a way to prevent that.

And I have a pretty solid internal locus of control. I don't blame anybody else for stuff unless it's clearly out of my control, like the weather or something like that. I would not have survived 30 years as a self-employed contractor/consultant if I didn't have a fairly good lock on that. My failings are my own. My focus and my productivity suck, but my **discipline** is pretty good. It's very common for me to plant my a$$ in my office chair 16 hours a day to get a job done. During the day I'm rabbit-holing and shiny-objecting (?) all over the place, so my time efficiency sucks rocks -- I might charge for only 4 hours of productive work. But my discipline keeps me in the chair until the job is done. The really maddening thing is that I can WATCH myself doing this, and think "you idiot, there you go again." I might pull myself out of it for the moment, but I seem nearly powerless to prevent it from happening again and again and again. I can't hold my breath forever.


I titrated up to 20mg/day, if I remember right, using a very high-quality recommended supplement, tons of B12, lots of Mg, etc. Zero effect.

But that's when I was still trying to isolate the source of all/most of the problems I was having. Since then I've removed my mercury fillings and I'm chemically extracting deep body stores of mercury, and most of my problems have vanished. (Except focus/productivity/etc, which are very common mercury behaviors.) Maybe it would be worth giving folate another try.


I've always had a big appetite and I'm fairly lethargic & don't exercise much, but fortunately weight is not a problem. I'm actually UNDERweight in spite of eating whatever the **** I want. And in spite of having almost every symptom of low thyroid EXCEPT weight gain.

Not that this is necessarily a mental illness, but I think it draws parallels:



That's awesome with the mercury though. It's funny how stuff like that can affect us.

He typically asks me questions like "Well why don't you just ..." One time I shot back "Well why don't you just read a damn book?" (He's fairly badly dyslexic.) That shut him up fast. It started to dawn on him that maybe other people have different challenges than he does.)

Lmfao

Yes, I *CAN* work hard at it and change my behaviors, and I do it frequently. I can hold my breath, too. But it's unsustainable and I can't keep it up. Sooner or later I have to breathe. Sooner or later I fall off the wagon and revert back to my "normal" behaviors, and I have never found a way to prevent that.

Yea for people without the issue, it is a matter of discipline. I think that's why there's such a disconnect between the two worlds.

Re: your son... it may get slightly better with age. Our Prefrontal Cortex, which is responsible for planning ahead and conscientiousness, aren't fully online until around 25. Actually there's a thread on here "when did you start getting your shit together" and most people answered around 25 lol

But I still recommend looking into the other stuff I just listed because i'm sure it has some genetic component considering you definitely have the gene and you've said much of your family has it.

Also wanted to repost this for anyone curious about the power of meditation, as I think it related to the post:

Are there people on this forum who have experience with meditation?

I've been meditating for 2 years now. I've noticed huge changes in the quality of my life and head-space. The effects of meditation set in gradually, so don't expect too much from it at the start. But this is what I've gotten out of the habit: better ability to focus, increased impulse control, I naturally gravitate towards healthy foods, I've started to dislike alcohol, drugs and cigarettes, gained more empathy, more willpower, increased control over my moods, feeling of purpose etc.

Before I started to meditate my ego kept me chained to negativity and addictions. I had identified with my thoughts and they kept pulling me down. After I found out that I can silence the chatter, I was able to reclaim control over my thoughts, emotions and actions (to a degree, I am not, nor do I intend to be perfect)

And if so, which techniques do you use and how long etc.?

I just focus on my breath 20 minutes a day. When I notice my mind wandering I just return my attention to breath.

And how can you apply this effectively in daily life?

Well, how do You apply going to shower effectively in daily life? Think of this habit as a shower for Your brain. It is not a magic pill. It is just a mental hygiene thing.

 

[Raveling]

Do you think I haven't been TRYING to do that for over 50 years?? Some people (maybe including you) don't have this problem. That doesn't mean ALL people can "fix" the problem with a simple application of will. People are different. You may be very disciplined/motivated but I've had very little success with "deciding to" be that way myself.

Me to it's taken YEARS of effort. You read my comments selectively. It's work for me to A LOT OF WORK, the main difference is I DO THE WORK.

(My brother, a typical type-A hyper-productive type, just doesn't understand this. It's easy for him, so obviously it's just easy, so if you don't do it, obviously you're lazy or not trying. He typically asks me questions like "Well why don't you just ..." One time I shot back "Well why don't you just read a damn book?" (He's fairly badly dyslexic.) That shut him up fast. It started to dawn on him that maybe other people have different challenges than he does.)

Is it easy for him, or does he just do it regardless of ease. I work out every second day and have been doing so on and off for 37 YEARS. It's really F*cking hard EVERY TIME.

Yes, I *CAN* work hard at it and change my behaviors, and I do it frequently. I can hold my breath, too. But it's unsustainable and I can't keep it up. Sooner or later I have to breathe. Sooner or later I fall off the wagon and revert back to my "normal" behaviors, and I have never found a way to prevent that.

So get back on the wagon, successful people fail hundreds or thousands of times. Sometimes for a year or more. It's exceptionally presumptuous of you to claim " it's easy for you " and a convenient excuse for you to quit.

And I have a pretty solid internal locus of control. I don't blame anybody else for stuff unless it's clearly out of my control, like the weather or something like that. I would not have survived 30 years as a self-employed contractor/consultant if I didn't have a fairly good lock on that. My failings are my own.

Respect!!

My focus and my productivity suck, but my **discipline** is pretty good. It's very common for me to plant my a$$ in my office chair 16 hours a day to get a job done. During the day I'm rabbit-holing and shiny-objecting (?) all over the place, so my time efficiency sucks rocks -- I might charge for only 4 hours of productive work. But my discipline keeps me in the chair until the job is done. The really maddening thing is that I can WATCH myself doing this, and think "you idiot, there you go again." I might pull myself out of it for the moment, but I seem nearly powerless to prevent it from happening again and again and again. I can't hold my breath forever.

Oh yeah, you mean like my ADHD, it'll never go away, I struggle to fill out a form, hate taxes...anything with a lot of information takes me forever, especially the first time. The first time I did a provisional patent ( a pretty simple task) it took me 7 or 8 hours of struggling. Nowadays it takes 30 minutes.

So far it seems the main difference between us is our willingness to manage our challenges.

That said, if you have read the books I've suggested or similar, ( have you? )APPLIED what they said and it doesn't work, by all means, get outside help.

As an aside, if shiny objects take you, set a timer, and let it take you until it goes off, THEN try to get back on task. Another thing that works for me is switching to another productive task that's completely different than the first, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Have you tried any specific techniques other than "willpower"? If not check out "If, then, when". statements.

ie. When I get distracted by a Fastlane, Facebook...notification THEN I will immediately click it closed.

or

IF when I'm working and my friend starts to chat to me THEN I will set a 10-minute timer and chat guilt-free for ten minutes. and then end said chat.

OR

IF I chat for over 10 minutes, even an hour later, then I will tell my friend I'm trying to be more productive and ask him to help me by ending our chat after 10 minutes if I don't.

I titrated up to 20mg/day, if I remember right, using a very high-quality recommended supplement, tons of B12, lots of Mg, etc. Zero effect.

But that's when I was still trying to isolate the source of all/most of the problems I was having. Since then I've removed my mercury fillings and I'm chemically extracting deep body stores of mercury, and most of my problems have vanished. (Except focus/productivity/etc, which are very common mercury behaviors.) Maybe it would be worth giving folate another try.

Or maybe it's not the cause?

I've always had a big appetite and I'm fairly lethargic & don't exercise much, but fortunately weight is not a problem. I'm actually UNDERweight in spite of eating whatever the **** I want. And in spite of having almost every symptom of low thyroid EXCEPT weight gain.

Since neither of us are doctors, you should have someone who is test you, and get an objective measurment.

Finally, Did you read the part about what to do IFF none of those self interventions don't work? I'm all for getting appropriate outside interventions AFTER DOING all that you can on your own.

Please list all the specific actions you've taken to manage your challenges. It sounds like you want a magic bullet, me too except I know it doesn't exist. Only a lifetime of trying my best to get better and manage my challenges have gotten me what I am, and where I am is far from impressive, but I own all my successes and failures.

If I fail. I fail honestly, after trying everything I can, then I ask for help if I need it.

 

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[Leo Hendrix]

Yes, those are the first things you should do.

But if problems still persist despite that, you should get a genetic test and talk to an ADHD doctor.

See this post.

There are a lot of specific genes that can contribute to this problem, and they cause big issues.

I'm hesitant to comment on solutions in detail because it's epically dumb to tinker with the DA system without a doctors care, but on the flip side, most doctors aren't trained in precision medication yet.

PLOS One Blog: Precision Medicine: Much More Than Just Genetics

Nature Review Genetics: Towards precision medicine

What is Precision Medicine?

Genes encode proteins. The best way to get to the root on an issue is to target the specific protein that's wrecking havoc. For example if someone has the overactive MAOB gene (which breaks down neurotransmitters too fast) it could indicate that a MAOB inhibitor would be the best course of action. It could be a combination of many genes.

But this is not DIY territory. It's really sophisticated, and most doctors use the old style.

This is going to be solved in the future, but for now people can PM me for referrals of doctors that use this method.

Thanks I think I skimmed over that post. And forgot the most important part ( getting a genetic test done and speaking to pros and specialists.)

What I was getting at was more a product that can assist with maintaining healthy dopamine levels which would be non-medicinal, nor anything to do with human biological systems.

Basically - a tech product that sort of keeps your dopamine levels at a healthy level and rewards structured habits and tasks which lead to certain results, sort of a process gamification reward system. But anyway that's nothing new really, but in combination with specific knowledge, research and testing ( as demonstrated in the post) you could come up with a new system.