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MJ DeMarco

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I laugh when I see these companies like Lawn Starter try to be the uber of lawn care and raise 17 million by calling themselves a tech company when they bring in 2.5m in sales after 8 years and being in 120 cities. What a stupid business model. Subbing out work = low customer retention. Being a middleman = lower margins. Their profit will be squeezed into nothing if advertising costs rise at all. We make a thousand per customer per year and we keep them. They make a hundred bucks per customer and lose them. It's easy to see who will be able to compete long term. Their tiny 2.5m in revenue will be us in 1 single city and only 35 employees bringing us nearly a mil in profit. I wonder what they are profiting on that 2.5m :rofl: . We might be making more than them now. And we'll be there in less time than them too. Whatever happened to the scalability of tech companies?

Around 2007, i said something similar about Uber for ground transportation ... I was horribly wrong.
 

thechosen1

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Around 2007, i said something similar about Uber for ground transportation ... I was horribly wrong.
“The market can remain irrational longer than [anything, apparently]”
- Warren Buffett

@Johnny boy
 

MJ DeMarco

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Hope they turn a profit someday!

Profit or not, they destroyed the limousine industry. The 80% of the businesses who went bankrupt really don't care if uBer lost billions, or made billions. They're all looking for new businesses, or new jobs.

Not suggesting that this will happen to your industry, but disruption doesn't necessarily need to be "profitable" to transform an industry, but just sustained long enough to redefine how business is done, while simultaneously realigning expectations for its customers.
 

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@Johnny boy

It doesn't' have to be an Uber-like model to expand/pivot to tech. Launch27 or dreamdesk come to mind. Rohan, the cofounder of both, started with a small local service company of his own, too.

BTW it's well off-topic now, but Uber business model is not quite what it used to be initially. Should we be be surprised when one day, in a (not so distant) future, self-driving cars are powered by a monopolist who had the right connections and infrastructure in place at the right time?

 

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I'm a little lost on what to do. It is a bit to walk away from. It's really not a topic I have anyone I can talk to about with and none of my friends are in similar situations nor do they have aspirations to build businesses from scratch.

I believe I have plenty to offer and have the chops to work through failure and struggle, but the pace and intensity of the shit I deal with daily leaves barely a moment to stop and think and plan for what next. I feel like I need to just jump.

I would greatly appreciate practical advice on what to do or criticism of my thought process or mindset. Don't hold back now.
I don't see that anyone's addressed the elephant in the room, which is:

How much longer until the ruse is up? When everyone else figures out that your CEO is a pathological liar? How long can this company last before it implodes? Sometimes it takes years, other times it takes months. That's something to think about. Just because you have relative security today doesn't mean it can't go belly up tomorrow.

When you have a young family, this decision gets tougher because you want them to have everything. So your dream, the promise of this dream has to be compelling enough that everyone becomes okay with having a lower standard of living because you are committed to some great vision for changing a certain aspect of society for the better.

How ghetto are you willing to be to run your own thing? Will you be committed to downsizing? Getting rid of nice shit? Eliminating that monthly car note for a 10-year old Honda? Maybe you don't have to do any of that, but at least define what is possible and what is a hard "no."
How will your spouse take all this?

If you don't have a calling, or a compelling vision, you might want to start there. Seems like the most successful people here, including MJ at some point, have said "The status quo sucks, there is a better way to do this" and they got to work serving others.

So you, like everyone else, has a keyboard. How will you contribute? What change are you seeking to make? What can you possibly do that is important and compelling enough that you are willing to give up your comfortable position, take the dive, and show up every single day?

Maybe that's the starting point of your journey. If I were you, I'd hold this position until I could find a compelling mission that isn't self-centered. Otherwise, you're jumping ship for the wrong reason.
 

Antifragile

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What a long time ago. Hope they turn a profit someday!
100% on point. But here is the thing, commodity products will continue to compete on price only. And your business may be just a commodity too… if not Uber, there will be a new company and then another that will use tech to displace old businesses.

blockbuster did a study and concluded that they will be in business because people loved visiting their stores and opening DVD cases. Lol.

Amazon.com wasn’t profitable for over a decade… they do alright today.

weWork model made many millionaires except then investors of the actual WeWork. The model works, even if one big example company sucks.

you are right about the new world order, most of these massive companies suck cash and make no money! But that’s innovation for you. Don’t get caught with pants down when one day your business is outdated.
 

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@Johnny boy

It doesn't' have to be an Uber-like model to expand/pivot to tech. Launch27 or dreamdesk come to mind. Rohan, the cofounder of both, started with a small local service company of his own, too.

BTW it's well off-topic now, but Uber business model is not quite what it used to be initially. Should we be be surprised when one day, in a (not so distant) future, self-driving cars are powered by a monopolist who had the right connections and infrastructure in place at the right time?


It's the same thing everywhere. Everyone wants to avoid the actual work getting done.

It's a broken industry and the problem is that jose and his 3 brothers don't know how to run a damn business.

There's massive demand that doesn't get fulfilled. This isn't going to be fixed because of a new SAAS business, or a lead gen business, or some other middleman.

It's going to be fixed when a business starts answering the phone, signs up the customer, and sends out a trained employee to do good work on a regular schedule.

Almost everyone we signup says the exact same thing: They called everyone and nobody answered the phone. They tried those lead gen companies like angies list and it was a shitshow. They tried lawnstater and they got sent some bum, so they asked for a new guy and got sent another bum. It's the same thing. And the people who try to start another "disruptive company" in this industry want to avoid that fact. The industry doesn't need more software. It needs a company on the ground in the trenches getting actual shit done. It's a lack of listening to the market that's the problem. They WISH the industry needed some software and that was it. It's like having thousands of beach towels in stock and it's raining outside. It would be NICE if it was sunny and you could sell all those beach towels. But it's not. It's raining. It would work if you sold umbrellas but you don't have any. And lying to yourself about the weather doesn't change anything.
 

MJ DeMarco

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Almost everyone we signup says the exact same thing: They called everyone and nobody answered the phone.

This doesn't surprise me.

Answering the phone is the biggest value skew in a lot of trades and it has been my experience among many industries, lawn care, irrigation repair, plumbers, electricians.

Who would have thought that in 2021, it's so damn simple to gain a competitive advantage just by answering the phone? Good for you for recognizing it, and making it a part of your growing empire.
 

PapaGang

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100% on point. But here is the thing, commodity products will continue to compete on price only. And your business may be just a commodity too… if not Uber, there will be a new company and then another that will use tech to displace old businesses.


you are right about the new world order, most of these massive companies suck cash and make no money! But that’s innovation for you. Don’t get caught with pants down when one day your business is outdated.
What @Johnny boy does is not a commodity. He's an artist. He's the pro that shows up every single day and provides value where others don't. Serving people and giving more than what's expected will never be outdated. He provides things that are rare: connection, trust and unexpected value.

As long as there are human beings, there will be a need for that.

Oh, also, he strikes me as someone who doesn't run from hard work. That's rarer than gold now.
 

FIFL

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@Johnny boy

It doesn't' have to be an Uber-like model to expand/pivot to tech. Launch27 or dreamdesk come to mind. Rohan, the cofounder of both, started with a small local service company of his own, too.

BTW it's well off-topic now, but Uber business model is not quite what it used to be initially. Should we be be surprised when one day, in a (not so distant) future, self-driving cars are powered by a monopolist who had the right connections and infrastructure in place at the right time?

Happy to have stimulated some discussion.

$30m, or $3m, it really doesn't matter what we're 'worth'. It only matters what we sell for. For the sake of this discussion I referenced the valuation the corporate advisors and the variety of VCs we worked with generally agreed on.

Valuations are mental at times, but within my game, SaaS, recurring subscriptions mean increased multiples.
 

FIFL

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I don't see that anyone's addressed the elephant in the room, which is:

How much longer until the ruse is up? When everyone else figures out that your CEO is a pathological liar? How long can this company last before it implodes? Sometimes it takes years, other times it takes months. That's something to think about. Just because you have relative security today doesn't mean it can't go belly up tomorrow.

When you have a young family, this decision gets tougher because you want them to have everything. So your dream, the promise of this dream has to be compelling enough that everyone becomes okay with having a lower standard of living because you are committed to some great vision for changing a certain aspect of society for the better.

How ghetto are you willing to be to run your own thing? Will you be committed to downsizing? Getting rid of nice shit? Eliminating that monthly car note for a 10-year old Honda? Maybe you don't have to do any of that, but at least define what is possible and what is a hard "no."
How will your spouse take all this?

If you don't have a calling, or a compelling vision, you might want to start there. Seems like the most successful people here, including MJ at some point, have said "The status quo sucks, there is a better way to do this" and they got to work serving others.

So you, like everyone else, has a keyboard. How will you contribute? What change are you seeking to make? What can you possibly do that is important and compelling enough that you are willing to give up your comfortable position, take the dive, and show up every single day?

Maybe that's the starting point of your journey. If I were you, I'd hold this position until I could find a compelling mission that isn't self-centered. Otherwise, you're jumping ship for the wrong reason.
There's plenty of good comments in this thread to my OP, all of which I have read and thought about, but this elephant is one that keeps me up at night. One which I am actively working around day in / day out. Trying to build a broader management team. To foster a culture of appropriate accountability and deputisation. To establish an environment of integrity and ethics in our conduct. It's hard but not impossible when a hypocrite as at the head.

The other work I have ahead of me is exactly what you're talking about here. Working out what (semi) unique set of skills, capabilities and interests I have and how I can help others.

Thanks for the wise comment.
 

Chris McCarron

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I come here to seek advice, admonishment and like-minded souls.

I am 3yrs in as 2nd-in-command (non founder) of an emerging tech startup. Roughly a $30m business that's just hit Series B. I have equity in the business (around 3-4%) that's illiquid until exit (goal would be $100m+). I look after the revenue/commercial operations of our business, basically everything aside from building the product. I've had a role in most of our ~$3m / year of recurring revenue. Pay is around $300k/year and will grow. Some days I like what I do. Many days I can't stand it and feel a FTE is extremely close. I fantasize regularly about building my own company. Oh and the CEO is a narcissistic pathological liar. It's objectively an incredibly difficult environment to succeed in, with very little empowerment, recognition or support. Kind of sounds like running your own company to me :)

To me I'm in the slowlane. I feel like I am failing @MJ DeMarco 's commandments. Like an employee with a little tiny bit of cream. This makes me incredibly anxious to do something else with my time.

Circumstantially I have done fairly well. Perhaps too well and the comfort prevents a complete FTE meltdown. From $0 in my pocket 10 years ago, I now have a house, investment property, stock portfolio, crypto investments, etc. and have been a well paid slowlaner for those years. I still for the most part live the same way I always have and tend to save and invest my money. I guess you'd call me a savings rat. I have a well-paid wife and two children under 3.

I am not risk averse, and I have progressively worked for riskier and riskier businesses. This company was absolutely fledgling with shitty, unknown customers when I joined and I have helped grow it from a nothing to where we now have major utilities, telcos and 100's of customers.

Recently I've been thinking it's really time to pull the rip cord. I want control of my own destiny. If I leave, I'll lose some of my unvested equity (probably $1m worth over 4-5 years), but my already vested equity will still be worth a couple of $mil, and I don't have a slog my guts out on something I have no control over working for a maniac.

I'm a little lost on what to do. It is a bit to walk away from. It's really not a topic I have anyone I can talk to about with and none of my friends are in similar situations nor do they have aspirations to build businesses from scratch.

I believe I have plenty to offer and have the chops to work through failure and struggle, but the pace and intensity of the shit I deal with daily leaves barely a moment to stop and think and plan for what next. I feel like I need to just jump.

I would greatly appreciate practical advice on what to do or criticism of my thought process or mindset. Don't hold back now.
Don't view your job as a job. It's a means to finance your own company and provides resources for you to invest.

You're also in a key position to put into place all the things that are clearly missing with the company's culture
 

Flint

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It's the same thing everywhere. Everyone wants to avoid the actual work getting done.

It's a broken industry and the problem is that jose and his 3 brothers don't know how to run a damn business.

There's massive demand that doesn't get fulfilled. This isn't going to be fixed because of a new SAAS business, or a lead gen business, or some other middleman.

It's going to be fixed when a business starts answering the phone, signs up the customer, and sends out a trained employee to do good work on a regular schedule.

Almost everyone we signup says the exact same thing: They called everyone and nobody answered the phone. They tried those lead gen companies like angies list and it was a shitshow. They tried lawnstater and they got sent some bum, so they asked for a new guy and got sent another bum. It's the same thing. And the people who try to start another "disruptive company" in this industry want to avoid that fact. The industry doesn't need more software. It needs a company on the ground in the trenches getting actual shit done. It's a lack of listening to the market that's the problem. They WISH the industry needed some software and that was it. It's like having thousands of beach towels in stock and it's raining outside. It would be NICE if it was sunny and you could sell all those beach towels. But it's not. It's raining. It would work if you sold umbrellas but you don't have any. And lying to yourself about the weather doesn't change anything.

Great comment. Don't wish it was easier, wish you were better. 100% agree with the value skew where quality, reliability and hard work take the lead. No shortcuts.

A few notes from a different angle. I'm in a B2B service business. My clients are big multinationals but also smaller companies. This is a highly regulated industry which requires subject matter experts with years of experience, skin in the game, quite unique technical skills and a serious dose of people skills. Relationships with clients are built over years.

These businesses deliver value to their customers, really tangible outcomes that were relevant 1,000 years ago and will still be relevant in 1,000 years. But as organisations they have their pain points and needs, too. This is where we step in. Nothing to do with lead generation, middlemen tricks or diluting value by other means you listed. We help by guiding them where and how to play to address unmet needs, building their complex (physical and digital) products with them (or for them if they wish), improving their processes and, most of all, coaching and training their management and employees to be even better as an organisation. And it's extremally difficult to find great talent that can do that. So I see many parallels with what you describe.

You're excelling at creating a fantastic B2C business that stands out by offering quality and reliability. But in a couple of years you may also find yourself having a franchise at hand, a well oil system that will lead you to B2B (McDonald's of lawn care? lol). Or that you'll be helping other B2C businesses in your space to become better by raising their standards and instilling the values you described above. Either way, I'm pretty sure you won't be chasing next SaaS umbrella in a sunny day.

I raise my glass to your value system.
 

PapaGang

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The other work I have ahead of me is exactly what you're talking about here. Working out what (semi) unique set of skills, capabilities and interests I have and how I can help others.

Thanks for the wise comment.
Thank you. It sounds like you are doing the right things to keep it moving forward.

I have no doubt that you will create something great.
 

frenki

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Make an array of all the value skews the company already has, like Customer Service, etc.

Find the variables that you can skew better than the current founders and literally make a bootstrapped exact company with better value skews than the one you are working.

You might be thinking they will copy you and raise their value skew (standards) too, but that's not how it works.

See, there is something called initial conditions and founding culture that usually never change if the founder has some personal traits that he can't change in himself. ("You have personal problems that reflect in your business")

Anyway back to point one, copy the company best practices, identify value skews, provide better value.

Now you created the company 1.0 MVP, but how to get customers and get product market fit?

Buy a list of companies that could use your SaaS

Then hire 5-10 VA's and get them to set appointments with cold emails.

It would be better if you could get sales reps on the phone.

Looks pretty simple explained this way, but I honestly think it is as long as you are resilient and have patience.

There is no shame in copying!

After all that's what we have been doing all our lives ;)
 

WJK

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I come here to seek advice, admonishment and like-minded souls.

I am 3yrs in as 2nd-in-command (non founder) of an emerging tech startup. Roughly a $30m business that's just hit Series B. I have equity in the business (around 3-4%) that's illiquid until exit (goal would be $100m+). I look after the revenue/commercial operations of our business, basically everything aside from building the product. I've had a role in most of our ~$3m / year of recurring revenue. Pay is around $300k/year and will grow. Some days I like what I do. Many days I can't stand it and feel a FTE is extremely close. I fantasize regularly about building my own company. Oh and the CEO is a narcissistic pathological liar. It's objectively an incredibly difficult environment to succeed in, with very little empowerment, recognition or support. Kind of sounds like running your own company to me :)

To me I'm in the slowlane. I feel like I am failing @MJ DeMarco 's commandments. Like an employee with a little tiny bit of cream. This makes me incredibly anxious to do something else with my time.

Circumstantially I have done fairly well. Perhaps too well and the comfort prevents a complete FTE meltdown. From $0 in my pocket 10 years ago, I now have a house, investment property, stock portfolio, crypto investments, etc. and have been a well paid slowlaner for those years. I still for the most part live the same way I always have and tend to save and invest my money. I guess you'd call me a savings rat. I have a well-paid wife and two children under 3.

I am not risk averse, and I have progressively worked for riskier and riskier businesses. This company was absolutely fledgling with shitty, unknown customers when I joined and I have helped grow it from a nothing to where we now have major utilities, telcos and 100's of customers.

Recently I've been thinking it's really time to pull the rip cord. I want control of my own destiny. If I leave, I'll lose some of my unvested equity (probably $1m worth over 4-5 years), but my already vested equity will still be worth a couple of $mil, and I don't have a slog my guts out on something I have no control over working for a maniac.

I'm a little lost on what to do. It is a bit to walk away from. It's really not a topic I have anyone I can talk to about with and none of my friends are in similar situations nor do they have aspirations to build businesses from scratch.

I believe I have plenty to offer and have the chops to work through failure and struggle, but the pace and intensity of the shit I deal with daily leaves barely a moment to stop and think and plan for what next. I feel like I need to just jump.

I would greatly appreciate practical advice on what to do or criticism of my thought process or mindset. Don't hold back now.
If I was you, I'd start where I am. I'd be putting together a side gig - or two -- or three. I'd be journaling and exploring the possibilities. I'd be interviewing people around me. I'd be looking at how to dovetail what I'm currently doing. I'm just NOT a hit the beach and burn the boat kind of girl. I always leave myself a way out of any situation -- and I try to make sure it is a graceful way out. I sure don't do my best work when I'm frazzled and there's no turning back. I make sure that my feet are on solid ground and the natives are friendly before I turn in my boat pass.

Here's a thought. Have you thought about making your current boss a proposal to start a side business with him? It could enhance the current business. That way you don't have to leave. Maybe you could have your cake and eat it too. Maybe you could tell him how you feel and find a way to work it all out in your favor and his.
 

Rammsteinfanboy

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I would kill to be in your position, I am not speaking from experience. Fastlane vs slowlane might be the wrong lense to look at this. Common startup advice is to join any fast growing business, and use is as a springboard into investing, aquiring unique knowledge, that is valued by the market. Or find a niche /problem for your own startup. All of that can lead you to equity, or your own business. Thats what I am reading up on. If I was a boss in a growing company like you, I would treat the company like a labaratory, to develop my own stuff. Dont just walk away, use it.
 

Nigel B

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Ultimately I think this is key. With those timeframes I genuinely see myself taking the direct time to build something else when I have the focus - but with a significant safety net and asset base.
Mentioned in other ways in this thread - you cannot get the time back.
Why is this significant? You are assuming no other changing variables.

You assume your health will remain good - so you can focus and build something.
You assume you do not have a catastrophic incident - none of us plan on dying in a car accident.
You assume your circumstances do not change in a way which causes you to not want to build anything.

And, you are waiting to build a safety net. That's very different from not having an idea, not being ready, etc, etc.
Many, many people start their ventures with no safety net, some investors consider those who have that safety net are a more risky investment (not as committed, not so much to lose from failure, etc). You have a safety net which eclipses what many/most have - are you hiding behind needing more?

If you "have the chops for it", and you want it, there are myriad reasons why waiting might be never doing it.
 
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MythOfSisyphus

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You can always make more money, but you can never get back time.

So what are you waiting for?
What else do you need to quit and start your own journey?
What is stopping you?
I completely agree.

You're already in a very comfortable position. So much so that an extra million really won't impact your overall happiness or quality of life. Staying stuck in a position you hate for several more years (a decent percentage of your life) will though.
 

Nigel B

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... someone who doesn't run from hard work. That's rarer than gold now.
Yep! In almost all industries and disciplines. Everyone seems to be looking for the catapult to the top, now even the elevator is too slow. Climb the ladder - look for ways to speed up the climb - but damn well climb!
 

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