A week in the life of Poker Pro, Snowbank

[hakrjak]

I normally don't play 7k hands/day. Been trying to work real hard lately.

Ya, comes with practice. I have a pretty set approach that I have with my game/strategy, so it's not like each new hand I'm having to think in depth about. I play roughly 22% of my hands, so 78% of those hands are just folds anyways. Then based on board texture/position/# of players in the pot, deciding if a continuation bet on the flop is best is a pretty easy decision since I've seen a million boards before. If you don't take it down right there, that's when the deeper thinking occurs since at that point based on their reaction to my bet, I will try and narrow their range down based on their pf position, what they did pf, and what the board is to determine if they have a draw, or a made hand, and if it's a made hand, whether I think it's a hand that's weak enough to push them off on a later street(if I don't have a hand), or if I think my hand is better than theirs, how can I extract the maximum value from this hand. A lot of those decisions have become 2nd nature to me because of the amount of hands I play, so only maybe 20 times/hour I have a big decision to make on a hand where someone puts me to the test and I'm either not sure exactly where I'm at, or a situation where I know where I'm at, but because of a certain line they took, etc... I need to think deep about how to make sure I extract the maximum amount of value from them on the hand.

Ah I really need to work on playing less hands. I've been playing about 6 hours today and I'm almost dead even -- playing about 48% of my hands to see a flop. Doh!

I play J9 or better -- are you more discriminating than that?

- Hakrjak

 

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[snowbank]

What's your opinion on using a HUD?

For me personally I just didn't like the numbers indicating things that I should do in a hand. I tried it for a bit a couple years ago, and I noticed myself doing some things that I wouldn't have done if I hadn't seen their numbers. For me, I decided I like to make decisions based on the flow of the game, and on how my opponents are reacting to me, etc... 99%+ of pros use it, so it's definitely beneficial, since it gives you so much information on your opponents. Most of my friends think I'm nuts for not using it with the number of tables that I play, but I just like it that way I guess. For most players I think a hud would be +ev.

 

[snowbank]

Ah I really need to work on playing less hands. I've been playing about 6 hours today and I'm almost dead even -- playing about 48% of my hands to see a flop. Doh!

I play J9 or better -- are you more discriminating than that?

- Hakrjak

Are you playing full ring or 6 max? I play exclusively 6 max. Full ring the # of hands I'd be playing would be less. Ya, 48% is insanely high.:smx2: What that means is that for all the times you are entering pots with a hand, the guys at your table entering the hands only 20% of the time are going to be going to battle with the better hand against you the majority of the time. So you start the hand each time at a huge disadvantage.

Although the hands you play are important, more important are the actions of the other players at the table, and your position. So, asking if you should play J9 or better won't even be half the equation. If someone raised before you, J9 would probably be a bad hand to play. If you are in early position, J9 would probably be a bad hand to play. However, I'd be glad to play J9 on the button if it was folded around to me and try and steal the blinds, since the sb and bb will be out of position so less likely to want to get involved in the pot with me. I'll touch a lot more in depth on that stuff when I make the post I mentioned. Hopefully that helps a bit for now.

 

[hakrjak]

Yeh I hear that. Position definitely impacts my play as well. If someone raises a bunch before it gets to me, I wouldn't come in with a J9 either...

- Hakrjak

 

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[hakrjak]

What do you think of these Intellipoker Bots people seem to be using on party poker? Do they work completely unattended? They seem really popular... There's been one in every room I've played in so far.

Cheers,

- Hakrjak

 

[biophase]

Are you playing full ring or 6 max? I play exclusively 6 max. Full ring the # of hands I'd be playing would be less. Ya, 48% is insanely high.:smx2: What that means is that for all the times you are entering pots with a hand, the guys at your table entering the hands only 20% of the time are going to be going to battle with the better hand against you the majority of the time. So you start the hand each time at a huge disadvantage.

Although the hands you play are important, more important are the actions of the other players at the table, and your position. So, asking if you should play J9 or better won't even be half the equation. If someone raised before you, J9 would probably be a bad hand to play. If you are in early position, J9 would probably be a bad hand to play. However, I'd be glad to play J9 on the button if it was folded around to me and try and steal the blinds, since the sb and bb will be out of position so less likely to want to get involved in the pot with me. I'll touch a lot more in depth on that stuff when I make the post I mentioned. Hopefully that helps a bit for now.

Hey Bill, I guess it should be noted that Hakjrak is playing limit full ring. I tried to play a few hands with him today but I felt totally lost in limit and have no idea what starting hands are even playable.

 

[hakrjak]

p.s. -

Snowbank -- on a 6 person table, aren't you giving the blinds more of a chance to eat at your bankroll? Is it really that much better of a tradeoff to pay more blinds and sit at a 6 than sit at a full sized spread? Would love to hear more of your take on this...

- Hakrjak

 

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[hakrjak]

Hey Bill, I guess it should be noted that Hakjrak is playing limit full ring. I tried to play a few hands with him today but I felt totally lost in limit and have no idea what starting hands are even playable.

LOL that was obvious... Bio was playing like 8 deuce and what not all day long! LOL

- Hakrjak

 

[PEERless]

How exactly is this legal?

>bump<

I'd like to hear an answer to this too. I realize there is no legal precedent for online gambling, but that's what the early music downloaders said too.

 

[Analyzer]

Pretty cool, you need to post some more details though

 

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[biophase]

p.s. -

Snowbank -- on a 6 person table, aren't you giving the blinds more of a chance to eat at your bankroll? Is it really that much better of a tradeoff to pay more blinds and sit at a 6 than sit at a full sized spread? Would love to hear more of your take on this...

- Hakrjak

I'll leave this to Bill but my quick answer is that on 6max your starting hands are stronger. On a full ring table, you really need the nuts or close to showdown. Therefore you play less hands than 6 max. I would guess that your hourly win rate is alot higher on 6 max than full ring.

Bill, what is the VPIP, voluntarily put in pot % on a full ring table?

I can't imagine making a bet and getting 5 callers. lol. How do you know where you stand?

BTW, I never feel that blinds or rakeback eats away at my bankroll. I think its a mindset thing.

 

[hakrjak]

Cool... well I'm obviously doing something wrong, because I'm down another $100 today. haha... I need to modify my strategy big time. I'm going camping this weekend, and will be back to play again on Monday. Any good books to reco?

Cheers,

- Hakrjak

 

[Bilgefisher]

I'm sorry I'm just reading this thread now. One thing that separates the good players from the bad is discipline during downswings. Some of the better online players have seen 500BB-1000BB down swings. Those can be very difficult to swallow. Many many players give up on the game during those periods.

Thanks for this thread. Got me thinking about the game more.

 

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[Bilgefisher]

Cool... well I'm obviously doing something wrong, because I'm down another $100 today. haha... I need to modify my strategy big time. I'm going camping this weekend, and will be back to play again on Monday. Any good books to reco?

Cheers,

- Hakrjak

Many good players do not measure their game in one session or even a group of sessions. They measure via groups of 100,000 hands or more.

 

[biophase]

How can you play on multiple tables with 100 BB?

Not sure I understand the question. At each table one would sit with 100BB. At a $1/$2 where the BB is $2, you buy-in with $200 per table. If you sit at 8 tables, your total buy in is $1600.

 

[biophase]

Cool... well I'm obviously doing something wrong, because I'm down another $100 today. haha... I need to modify my strategy big time. I'm going camping this weekend, and will be back to play again on Monday. Any good books to reco?

Cheers,

- Hakrjak

How the heck did that happen? We were only playing at a .25/.50 table on limit? When I was watching you you only were down $2 after a few hours. :huh2:

I bet you moved up didn't you... :smxE:

 

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[rzach41]

Cool... well I'm obviously doing something wrong, because I'm down another $100 today. haha... I need to modify my strategy big time. I'm going camping this weekend, and will be back to play again on Monday. Any good books to reco?

Cheers,

- Hakrjak

Harrington on Hold`em, all volumes

 

[snowbank]

What do you think of these Intellipoker Bots people seem to be using on party poker? Do they work completely unattended? They seem really popular... There's been one in every room I've played in so far.

Cheers,

- Hakrjak

If it's what I'm thinking of, those are play money bots that Party made to play in their playmoney games. Ya, they'd work unattended, like playing a computer.

 

[snowbank]

p.s. -

Snowbank -- on a 6 person table, aren't you giving the blinds more of a chance to eat at your bankroll? Is it really that much better of a tradeoff to pay more blinds and sit at a 6 than sit at a full sized spread? Would love to hear more of your take on this...

- Hakrjak

Not at all. Six guys at a table. Someone's going to win the money. If someone's "blinding away" so to speak, that means someone has to be the one taking those blinds from them if they're giving up too easily. It's my job to make sure that person is me.:smxB:

Basically, the reason I play at a 6 max table is simple: more money. Here's why........ at a 6 max table you're going to be playing more hands against each of your opponents. Let's say there's a bad player at a 6 max table with you. You can play a lot of pots against this player, often isolating the player to get yourself heads up with them post-flop. In a 9-10 handed game, you'll be lucky to play 1 heads up pot per hour against the bad player. You'll often be waiting for big hands to get your edge on the bad player, or any of your opponents for that matter.

In a 6 handed game, if you have an edge, your edge is maximized because not only will you be playing more hands against players that you learn about as you see them play hands, and find spots where you can take advantage of their play, but because your hand ranges that you'll be playing are so much wider, increasing your edge dramatically. For example, at a full ring game hands like AA/KK/AK, etc... are the type of hands you're often going to wait for to get very aggressive with and want to put much money into the pot. In a 6 max game, hands like QT is a relatively strong hand depending on position, etc... Because the hand ranges are so much wider, this means that if you play well post-flop against opponents with much wider ranges as well, meaning if you know when you're ahead/behind, there are going to be many more spots to make money off the other players at the table, instead of just waiting around for big hands. An aggressive player who has an edge at the table can push these edges hand after hand, and make it tough for opponents to know where they're at by constantly putting pressure on them as well. In a full ring game it's a little more cut and dry as far as where you're at in hands, so it's more about waiting for spots, rather than creating spots to push edges.

 

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[snowbank]

I'll leave this to Bill but my quick answer is that on 6max your starting hands are stronger. On a full ring table, you really need the nuts or close to showdown. Therefore you play less hands than 6 max. I would guess that your hourly win rate is alot higher on 6 max than full ring.

Bill, what is the VPIP, voluntarily put in pot % on a full ring table?

I can't imagine making a bet and getting 5 callers. lol. How do you know where you stand?

BTW, I never feel that blinds or rakeback eats away at my bankroll. I think its a mindset thing.

I think the VPIP should be around 15%ish for full ring games give or take.

 

[snowbank]

Cool... well I'm obviously doing something wrong, because I'm down another $100 today. haha... I need to modify my strategy big time. I'm going camping this weekend, and will be back to play again on Monday. Any good books to reco?

Cheers,

- Hakrjak

Since you're playing limit, read "small stakes hold em" by ed miller. "theory of poker" should be good too.

 

[snowbank]

I'm sorry I'm just reading this thread now. One thing that separates the good players from the bad is discipline during downswings. Some of the better online players have seen 500BB-1000BB down swings. Those can be very difficult to swallow. Many many players give up on the game during those periods.

Ya, another thing to add to that would be, this is one big reason that poker will always remain so profitable. Because of the swings involved in poker, many bad players don't actually ever know they are bad. They'll go on an upswing, make a bunch of money, and assume they're a good player, but really have no idea about the game. They'll go on a downswing, and assume they're "running bad." People's ego's often get in the way of success in poker. Instead of recognizing they are not good and learning how to play better, they blame it on bad luck and continue to think their "luck" will turn around. Or they win, and just go around proclaiming that they are a good player and thinking they have an edge on people, but within 2 minutes of talking poker with these people it's really easy to see that short term luck is all they had, but they'll never know it and because of ego do everything in their power not to believe it. This often happens with live players. In one week online I can play as many hands as a live pro can play in a year. So often live pros may not actually be any good, but since they are playing other bad players, and/or may run well for a while, it can take forever to actually learn results wise whether or not they can actually show a profit in the game. In other words, many players will never reach the "long term" with their poker play. So whether a player is up or down after X amount of time, often doesn't mean anything about their skill, or lack of skill.

Thanks for this thread. Got me thinking about the game more.

You're welcome! Glad it has some helpful info.

 

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[hakrjak]

Welp -- Doing better today. I didn't lose money, I think after about 7 hours of play I am actually up $15 bucks. LOL... I'm used to making money a little quicker than this, so hopefully things will continue to improve

- Hakrjak

 

[hakrjak]

Welp, it's day 4 of my little experiment and I'm down again. I'm beginning to think that I surely don't have the patience to master this game, and need to transfer my account balance over to something I'm better at -- like Sports Handicapping for the fastly approaching NFL season

I tip my hat to you Snowbank. You must be the most patient, focussed guy on the planet!

- Hakrjak

 

[biophase]

Welp, it's day 4 of my little experiment and I'm down again. I'm beginning to think that I surely don't have the patience to master this game, and need to transfer my account balance over to something I'm better at -- like Sports Handicapping for the fastly approaching NFL season

I tip my hat to you Snowbank. You must be the most patient, focussed guy on the planet!

- Hakrjak

It's gonna take alot more than 4 days and much much more thinking than you'd ever think. Let's face it, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

 

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[hakrjak]

It's gonna take alot more than 4 days and much much more thinking than you'd ever think. Let's face it, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

No doubt about that. It's definitely time consuming. I'm obviously not used to working that hard at my day job, otherwise I couldn't find time to play 8 hours of poker a day for the past 4 days -- So maybe I just don't have the work ethic. haha

- Hakrjak

 

[werbl]

This is a very interesting thread. A few years ago one of my best friends was in a bad car accident, injuring his arm. Long story short, he ended up living at my place for about six months. As a form of rehab for his arm and hand, we ended up playing about 3 or 4 hours of hold 'em a night, and got to be pretty decent. We started winning the occasional $10 game against other friends. I guess that's when the bug got me. Also, I immediately saw similarities between poker and my stock trading, as far as risk control and position (bet) sizing. Has anyone else thought about this?

I've read a few poker books, and I've been playing on Facebook for the past couple months. I turned my fake $500 into about fake $60,000. Thanks for the great post Snowbank! Maybe sometime in the future I'll have to make the jump and try playing online with a small amount of real money.

 

[snowbank]

Welp, it's day 4 of my little experiment and I'm down again. I'm beginning to think that I surely don't have the patience to master this game, and need to transfer my account balance over to something I'm better at -- like Sports Handicapping for the fastly approaching NFL season

I tip my hat to you Snowbank. You must be the most patient, focussed guy on the planet!

- Hakrjak

It takes more than 4 days to become a poker pro :smx1:

Most people give up early, which is why there's so much money for the rest of us. If you like it, spend 4 months, instead of 4 days at it, and you'll be amazed at the results.

 

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[snowbank]

No doubt about that. It's definitely time consuming. I'm obviously not used to working that hard at my day job, otherwise I couldn't find time to play 8 hours of poker a day for the past 4 days -- So maybe I just don't have the work ethic. haha

- Hakrjak

My other thread will include a lot of the "how to" stuff, but I'll tell you this now, if I were you, I definitely wouldn't focus on playing if you're just starting out. I'd focus on learning how to play correctly, and then playing after you have some fundamentals down. Don't give up before you at least read "small stakes hold em"(if you want to stick with limit) Poker's the same as a lot of other investments. You wouldn't go buy a ton of houses, and then learn how to buy houses. You'd learn how to buy the houses before you buy them. Same thing with poker.

 

[WheelsRCool]

Also, I immediately saw similarities between poker and my stock trading, as far as risk control and position (bet) sizing. Has anyone else thought about this?

Yep, a lot of best hedge-fund managers are good poker players as well. Pure trading is really just ultra-high stakes gambling. There's a book out called "Fortune's Formula" about some genius guys (engineer, mathematician, physicist) who used their math skills to develop strategies to consistently win at gambling; the one applied the same strategies to run a successful hedge-fund.