You Are About To See an EPIC Industry Change

[Weaponize]

This sounds like something that might work for chains, but at higher end places I think the clientele would prefer tipping and so would the wait staff.

I don't, personally. Here's why...

I've eaten at high end (Michael Star) restaurants and have hated coming up with a tip. I was at a Michael Star restaurant in Vegas not too long ago, we decided to go for the multi-course food & wine pairing. Meaning, they decide on the menu for us and have their Sommelier introduce each course with the wine (of their choice) that best fits the food.

It was lavish.

But... someone f*cked up half way through and delivered our food before the Sommelier could intro the food/wine for us. A big no-no in their world. We started eating the food BEFORE tasting the wine. The wine is suppose to enhance the flavor of the food, much like salt does, but in a much more regal way when paired with the correct wine.

The staff freaked out! F*cking, freaked out!

The chef came out and personally apologized. They have a book of the restaurant sitting at the front door, they snatched it away from it's perch and had the entire staff sign it for us. The entire F*cking staff. They sell some sort of high end french chocolates in a fancy-a$$ box to take home with you, they gave it to us, on the house. They were buzzing around like flies on a rump roast.

It was F*cking funny!

Did they care about the tip? Nope... They could give 2 shits about the tip. And when I say "they," I'm referring to the wait staff, those directly benefiting from a 20% (minimum) tip on a meal costing hundreds of dollars (tip was not included in the price).

You wanna know what they really cared about!? They only cared about... Their Yelp review. Yes... their F*cking Yelp review. Gawd forbid I leave, jump on Yelp, and describe this horrible atrocity in excruciating detail.

You see.. in that instant. The truth came out. F*ck the tip, we have bigger worries. We better make sure we address them before these customers leave.

A Sommelier, a Waiter, those directly benefiting from a tip at a high end place care about their careers more than that 1 time tip. This is truly their career, and they'll do anything to protect that.

 

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[CommonCents]

yeah, i think we'll see much more of kiosk ordering in the near future if there are artificial govt mandated wage increases, esp in low/mid end. Chilis and applebees already have them on the table here in MN.

Right now, at the finest convenience stores in America (WaWa gas stations) you step up to a digital screen. You order your lunch. 4-5 clicks total to a customized order. The order goes electronically to the "cooks" who make it while you pay. Your lunch comes up. Almost zero interaction with humans, which means almost zero error on the order side.

It's WAY better than a clerk who is talking with her girlfriend about last night's party and how hung over she is when all you wanted to do was get a damn sandwich. They eliminated payroll while simultaneously making the consumer experience better.

Times are changing, and being escorted to escalation by a rapid evolution of technology colliding against the $15/hour burger flipper entitlement generation.

Honest to goodness... who started giving these kids participation trophies a decade ago? That a**hole should be drawn and quartered.

 

[CommonCents]

on the high end, i get a bit peeved from overservice actually. many of those places hound ya every 10 seconds and refill your water after every 2 sips, rake the table with their metal bread crumb pooper scooper etc..... too over the top for me as they try to justify a big tip.

I don't, personally. Here's why...

I've eaten at high end (Michael Star) restaurants and have hated coming up with a tip. I was at a Michael Star restaurant in Vegas not too long ago, we decided to go for the multi-course food & wine pairing. Meaning, they decide on the menu for us and have their Sommelier introduce each course with the wine (of their choice) that best fits the food.

It was lavish.

But... someone f*cked up half way through and delivered our food before the Sommelier could intro the food/wine for us. A big no-no in their world. We started eating the food BEFORE tasting the wine. The wine is suppose to enhance the flavor of the food, much like salt does, but in a much more regal way when paired with the correct wine.

The staff freaked out! F*cking, freaked out!

The chef came out and personally apologized. They have a book of the restaurant sitting at the front door, they snatched it away from it's perch and had the entire staff sign it for us. The entire F*cking staff. They sell some sort of high end french chocolates in a fancy-a$$ box to take home with you, they gave it to us, on the house. They were buzzing around like flies on a rump roast.

It was F*cking funny!

Did they care about the tip? Nope... They could give 2 shits about the tip. And when I say "they," I'm referring to the wait staff, those directly benefiting from a 20% (minimum) tip on a meal costing hundreds of dollars (tip was not included in the price).

You wanna know what they really cared about!? They only cared about... Their Yelp review. Yes... their F*cking Yelp review. Gawd forbid I leave, jump on Yelp, and describe this horrible atrocity in excruciating detail.

You see.. in that instant. The truth came out. F*ck the tip, we have bigger worries. We better make sure we address them before these customers leave.

A Sommelier, a Waiter, those directly benefiting from a tip at a high end place care about their careers more than that 1 time tip. This is truly their career, and they'll do anything to protect that.

 

[csalvato]

This is exactly how is works in Japan. Zero tipping. Salaries are higher. What's interesting is the LEVEL of service you receive. I've never received better service anywhere else in the world.

Same system in the UK and Europe. Terrible service.

n=2 the average is mediocrity.

 

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[splok]

n=2 the average is mediocrity.

Not picking on your comment, but the average you really care about is the one in the country and restaurants that you normally eat. I don't really like tipping (even having been a server in the past), but I bet the US average would get MUCH worse without it regardless of the wage paid to servers. Japan has great service without tips. Norway has terrible service without tips (and I suspect that adding tipping wouldn't change that). It's all about the cultural expectations.

For those people eating out in the US, do you think the places where you normally eat would really give you equivalent/better service if there were no tips? Imo, service in both high-end and mom-and-pop places wouldn't really change, but for the vast majority of chain restaurants, service would get terrible fast. Do you really go into an Applebee's and think "wow, this is really a service-oriented culture"?

 

[csalvato]

Not picking on your comment, but the average you really care about is the one in the country and restaurants that you normally eat. I don't really like tipping (even having been a server in the past), but I bet the US average would get MUCH worse without it regardless of the wage paid to servers. Japan has great service without tips. Norway has terrible service without tips (and I suspect that adding tipping wouldn't change that). It's all about the cultural expectations.

For those people eating out in the US, do you think the places where you normally eat would really give you equivalent/better service if there were no tips? Imo, service in both high-end and mom-and-pop places wouldn't really change, but for the vast majority of chain restaurants, service would get terrible fast. Do you really go into an Applebee's and think "wow, this is really a service-oriented culture"?

It's a good point, and I think that's a great hypothesis.

 

[Weaponize]

on the high end, i get a bit peeved from overservice actually. many of those places hound ya every 10 seconds and refill your water after every 2 sips, rake the table with their metal bread crumb pooper scooper etc..... too over the top for me as they try to justify a big tip.

I hate that too, but haven't found it at the high end places. I've, personally, only found that at the low end places "trying to act as if" they are a high end place in order to justify a bigger ticket price for whats essentially microwaved food out of the "kitchen". That's their form of value add. Low quality food, at a high price, justified by over servicing the shit out of you.

 

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[BaraQueenbee]

Same system in the UK and Europe. Terrible service.

Everytime I get back from the US, this is my first reality slap. Always.

I have been looking and thinking about this alot.
Someone mentioned in a previous comment, it being about culture.
Here in the netherlands, many people complain about not liking the US. One of their top 5 reasons?
"Their fake kindness"

Mindblown

Not thinking in ways as "fake" or "real". It is about the atmosphere one creates.
Also, I prefer "fake kidness" over "real rudeness" everyday anyday.
Its more open, creates opportunity to talk to the people, get the know a bit more.

Will that dissapear when we take away the element of tipping? I so hope not.
However I do agree that everyone should get a minimum wage that can make them at least "live live" with the basic needs.

BUT....... I feel this will be at all times a two-way thing. Just because you are a paying customer, it doesn't give right or the ok to treat the person that is serving you/working for you, rudely or in a sense of entitlement <--- and THIS, is also very different per culture.



This is going to be an interesting change to see, excited to watch how it evolves and takes course.

 

[Supa]

Everytime I get back from the US, this is my first reality slap. Always.

I have been looking and thinking about this alot.
Someone mentioned in a previous comment, it being about culture.
Here in the netherlands, many people complain about not liking the US. One of their top 5 reasons?
"Their fake kindness"

Mindblown

Not thinking in ways as "fake" or "real". It is about the atmosphere one creates.
Also, I prefer "fake kidness" over "real rudeness" everyday anyday.
Its more open, creates opportunity to talk to the people, get the know a bit more.

Will that dissapear when we take away the element of tipping? I so hope not.
However I do agree that everyone should get a minimum wage that can make them at least "live live" with the basic needs.

BUT....... I feel this will be at all times a two-way thing. Just because you are a paying customer, it doesn't give right or the ok to treat the person that is serving you/working for you, rudely or in a sense of entitlement <--- and THIS, is also very different per culture.



This is going to be an interesting change to see, excited to watch how it evolves and takes course.

I been to the US for the first time in my life, this year. When we came back home I felt like I came from a country of friendly open people, back to a cold and unfriendly country (Germany). I miss the friendly convos wherever we went.

 

[BaraQueenbee]

I been to the US for the first time in my life, this year. When we came back home I felt like I came from a country of friendly open people, back to a cold and unfriendly country (Germany). I miss the friendly convos wherever we went.

Yes. God I know yes. Now lets be those that create the convo here too and be open person, on this side of the planet :-D

 

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[Supa]

Yes. God I know yes. Now lets be those that create the convo here too and be open person, on this side of the planet :-D

There are people who do that tbh, but most of the time you would probably be seen as a weirdo lol

 

[BaraQueenbee]

There are people who do that tbh, but most of the time you would probably be seen as a weirdo lol

*WEIRD AND PROUD* it is..... ;-)

 

[Weaponize]

but the average you really care about is the one in the country and restaurants that you normally eat.

That's what makes this whole thread so damn interesting. Seems to be some radical differences based upon location. Great stuff!

 

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[Clayton]

Just a follow up to this thread from last year. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/13/b...d-getting-rid-of-tips-it-didnt-last-long.html

What do you think? What kind of change would it take for this cultural norm to be changed?

 

[Vigilante]

Just a follow up to this thread from last year. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/13/b...d-getting-rid-of-tips-it-didnt-last-long.html

What do you think? What kind of change would it take for this cultural norm to be changed?

My predictions have been shit lately

 

[Bigguns50]

Great topic @Vigilante !

There are many variables to debate here and I've thoroughly enjoyed reading everyones take. But...I'm just going to make a prediction. 4 months and Joe's goes back to tipping.

Oh...and if this turns out to be better for the employees then I hope I am wrong.

Genious ! Ok...fine. Lucky.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

I enjoyed Germany service. I sit down, they take my order, they bring my food when it's ready instead of letting it get cold while my friend's steak finishes getting super extra well done...

Tip is included in the bill.

Once they leave the table I either saw them once or not at all until time to pay. That's how I like it. When I go out it's not for service. It's for convenience. I want to eat in peace. I don't want to be watched. I don't want to be tended to. I don't want to have to do math or fight my phone for the calculator. If I want to talk to someone I bring them with me.

On a side note, Wendys is all in with tech and they're upgrading 6,000 chain stores to full frontline automation and leaving it up to franchise owners to decide whether or not to do the same. They're more on board with tech than McDonalds. I don't eat fast food, but if this was standard for all restaurants, I'd definitely eat out more.

As it is I can't stand to eat out in the U.S. I hate being herded to a table like cattle and getting some half-alert waiter who gives an automated response and automated laughs to anything I say. I hate being asked if I'm doing "alright" every two seconds, and hate being expected to leave a tip of a certain amount even when not earned.

No thanks. Give me robots.

Let a computer let me book my seat at the door or from home. I'll find my way there.
Let me press buttons on a screen to order and choose the perfect color of steak.
Let me press another button in the event I need something extra.
Let me pay by card right at my table so I don't have to wait on someone's a$$ to "come back around."
Let me have reasons to eat out again.

Screw tip/no tip.
Give. Me. Robots!

 

[Bigguns50]

I hate being asked if I'm doing "alright" every two seconds,

Same for me. I always tell my server upfront NOT to come check on me/us every 2 minutes but rather, keep an eye from a distance and I will let him/her know if I need something. I also tell them..."yes, I do tip".

Wendys is all in with tech and they're upgrading 6,000 chain stores to full frontline automation

Now THIS....my prediction...it will work as long as the system works better than the people who take your order.

As far as the main topic.... I think the 'no tipping' thing will work for some restaurants but definitely not for all. And I think if it catches on...it will take many years. I'm thinking the now 18-20 something year olds might welcome this in the future.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Right now, at the finest convenience stores in America (WaWa gas stations) you step up to a digital screen. You order your lunch. 4-5 clicks total to a customized order. The order goes electronically to the "cooks" who make it while you pay. Your lunch comes up. Almost zero interaction with humans, which means almost zero error on the order side.

I can't understand why every fast food restaurant isn't set up with this yet. Pretty much any restaurant I go into (fast food like) could benefit from some type of automation. The inefficency just drives me nuts -- I've probably walked out of 4 restaurants in the last few months simply because their order process was like a feeding frenzy.

 

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[Daniel A]

^ A few days ago I ordered a pizza from Pizza Hut's website because they gave 50% off if you ordered via their app or website and I was craving some pizza (FYI -- today's the last day for that promo). I wouldn't order pizza any other way now. I'm assuming the process is easier and simpler for all parties involved.

While I was eating my pizza, I also watched a YouTube video titled Business of Pizza: The Pizza Show (and I learned that Pizza Day is Feb 9 in the USA ).

Anyways, there's a startup in Mountain View, CA where the making and delivery of their pizza is almost 100% automated (with plans to make it 100% automated ASAP) called Zume Pizza.

You can order pizza via their apps / website and it'll be cooked while it's being delivered via their specialized trucks.

The video explains and shows the process in detail. It's pretty cool. The segment about Zume Pizza starts at 4:25.

View: https://youtu.be/ZZzFoi_fuF4?t=4m25s

 

[MidwestLandlord]

I can't understand why every fast food restaurant isn't set up with this yet. Pretty much any restaurant I go into (fast food like) could benefit from some type of automation. The inefficency just drives me nuts -- I've probably walked out of 4 restaurants in the last few months simply because their order process was like a feeding frenzy.

A few years back I helped do a test run for a chain that wanted to fully automate the front of the house ordering process. Touch screens and all that.

We paid a franchisee that had a great location for this test some cash to let us commandeer his location for a month.

A few BIG problems were found:

1) Older people that are adverse to technology or flat unable to use technology

2) People with certain types of disabilities struggled with it. Namely those with learning or vision disabilities

3) The technology was poor. Point of sale makers, for the most part, are way behind in tech

4) a full 1/3 of people mis-ordered their own orders

5) speed of service fell by over 50%. Why? Partly because it was new, but partly because a well trained employee has a "sense of urgency" and subtly pushes the customer along in the order process, something a touchscreen cannot do

6) people lack self-direction. They would order on the screen, then just stand there and wait, blocking the next customer. Again, this is because a well trained employee guides the customer, something a touch screen cannot do

7) ADA compliance for wheelchairs was non-existent

8) up-sells fell by over 80%

9) customers that couldn't read English struggled with it, even with a Spanish option (and converting the menu and POS to Spanish was expensive)

Some of these problems are fixable, others are not so easy. There is tremendous behind the scenes process in fast food that most people don't realize even happens, like "sense of urgency" and "tone of voice" guiding customers in the process.

So it's not a slam dunk by any means. This is why fast food places are only now starting to do this, because of other pressures like $15 an hour minimum wages and poor employee quality.

 

[LifeTransformer]

This sort of thing could already be old-hat by the time 3D food printers get to commercial viability.

The thread about Macy's and Sears on the main page could end up reading; "McDonald's/Burger King" closing its stores in the near future.

 

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[Mineralogic]

I can't understand why every fast food restaurant isn't set up with this yet. Pretty much any restaurant I go into (fast food like) could benefit from some type of automation. The inefficency just drives me nuts -- I've probably walked out of 4 restaurants in the last few months simply because their order process was like a feeding frenzy.

i guess its not as cost effective or efficient as you assume?

how about the fact that alot less people might GO OUT TO EAT if a ROBOT or automated kiosk is serving them?

people buy based on emotions not just logic as you obviously know as the big daddy here.!

when it comes to food and restaurants, the feel and the vibe is a big deal. Humans want humans cooking for them and delivering value IMO

maybe it works a bit easier in fast food or the chile's of the world but I think blowback would occur

also, lets face it, low end places to eat are CHEAP already. You can eat for a couple bucks at McDonalds and 12-15 bucks at Chiles. How much lower does it have to go ? HA

Also huge political fall out and economic fall out if fast food industry jobs disapear

 

[Mineralogic]

A few years back I helped do a test run for a chain that wanted to fully automate the front of the house ordering process. Touch screens and all that.

We paid a franchisee that had a great location for this test some cash to let us commandeer his location for a month.

A few BIG problems were found:

1) Older people that are adverse to technology or flat unable to use technology

2) People with certain types of disabilities struggled with it. Namely those with learning or vision disabilities

3) The technology was poor. Point of sale makers, for the most part, are way behind in tech

4) a full 1/3 of people mis-ordered their own orders

5) speed of service fell by over 50%. Why? Partly because it was new, but partly because a well trained employee has a "sense of urgency" and subtly pushes the customer along in the order process, something a touchscreen cannot do

6) people lack self-direction. They would order on the screen, then just stand there and wait, blocking the next customer. Again, this is because a well trained employee guides the customer, something a touch screen cannot do

7) ADA compliance for wheelchairs was non-existent

8) up-sells fell by over 80%

9) customers that couldn't read English struggled with it, even with a Spanish option (and converting the menu and POS to Spanish was expensive)

Some of these problems are fixable, others are not so easy. There is tremendous behind the scenes process in fast food that most people don't realize even happens, like "sense of urgency" and "tone of voice" guiding customers in the process.

So it's not a slam dunk by any means. This is why fast food places are only now starting to do this, because of other pressures like $15 an hour minimum wages and poor employee quality.

agree, a HUMAN being even at a low paying fast food job, can be immense help in directing and upselling/cross selling people on food, or pointing out new things. Going to be very tough outsourcing good sales people in the end

 

[Gareth]

I'm not sure what is happening elsewhere, but McDonalds has self service ordering from kiosks in store.

We have had self serve supermarket checkouts for a few years now.

 

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[Mineralogic]

I'm not sure what is happening elsewhere, but McDonalds has self service ordering from kiosks in store.

We have had self serve supermarket checkouts for a few years now.

wow, whole layout just changed on this site. In the northeast I haven't seen it in mcdonalds

we do have self serve checkouts at some supermarkets and lowes/hd for a while now. one of the stores I go to PULLED the self checkout line recentlyu

again, what might sound like a good idea doesn't execute perfectly all the time. I'm in the wholesale trades and one of our manufacturer ideas for marketing to said wholesaler was shot down due to the obvious to him...theft. guys on the ground have different experience then customers.

 

[Gareth]

Heres what Maccas are doing

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbWfmWCkauQ


As for self service supermarket theft...

Coles understood to be introducing new technology to reduce theft at self service checkouts

 

[MidwestLandlord]

No cashiers, no lines – Amazon debuts its new grocery store

This ^^^ is the real future of retail.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

6) people lack self-direction. They would order on the screen, then just stand there and wait, blocking the next customer. Again, this is because a well trained employee guides the customer, something a touch screen cannot do

Execution is everything on this, and I think customers should have an option. At Frys, some deli counters have a kiosk giving you the choice -- I think the last time I ordered through a human was 3 years ago.

 

[Mineralogic]

Heres what Maccas are doing

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbWfmWCkauQ


As for self service supermarket theft...

Coles understood to be introducing new technology to reduce theft at self service checkouts

looks like way more work and time to order on their KIOSK

another thing business people need to think about..turning off customers. Yeah might save a few quarters in the end, but you pay for it as well sometimes including putting your hand on a screen tons of sick people did before.

In regards to the internet, I am surfing and researching way less than I used to on certain things because I'm done with the overkill of web ads. Some sites are also deactivating a site if you ad block. I'm starting to deactivate my interest from them and I'm' sure others are as well