What is Happening to Personal Responsibility?

[yveskleinsky]

DISCLAIMER: Does anyone think this economic structure can continue to work for long before it turns socialistic?

...I think we are there now. The irony of socialism is that, in theory, it appears like a utopian way of life- but in practice a society all but breaks down.

 

Dislike ads? Become a Fastlane member: Subscribe today and surround yourself with winners and millionaire mentors, not those broke friends who only want to drink beer and play video games. :-)

[taichijedi]

So much of what is going on today IMO is the WAY WE ARE RAISING OUR KIDS.

For the most part, I see family after family in which the kids are brought up from a very young age feeling that they are ENTITLED. This started a while back - maybe with the baby boomer kids (?) Parents want the kids to "have a better life then I had." So, the kids are given a good "start." This, unfortunately leads to entitlement and it carries over into adulthood.

• Kids are given what ever new toy they are asked for.
• They are not expected to work.
• They grow up believing that they are entitled to have college paid for and/or an inheritance.
• They don't have to do chores around the house..... maybe their parents say so - but the kids know that if they whine loud enough they will out of it.
• Parents BAIL THEIR KIDS OUT of trouble EVERY DAY...

• Forgot your lunch? I'll bring it right down.
• Kid picking on you? I'll punch him out.
• Ran up a credit card balance while you were in college? I'll pay for it.
• Got picked up driving drunk? I'll bail you out of jail.

:iagree: This. Fortunately I was raised "old school" I would say. If I wanted something, I could have it, if I found a way to obtain it. When I was a kid, I would mow lawns/rake leaves/shovel snow, etc. Not enough money still, do more houses. If I forgot my lunch, I'd go hungry, and that sure was one hell of a motivator not to forget my lunch again. Not to mention that both my parents were adamant that if I got locked up, I was on my own getting out. A "You found your way in, find your way out" paradigm.

I didn't really appreciate how strong, independent, and accountable they were making me at the time. I was always disappointed that I didn't the "cool new stuff" like everybody else, but what I had was mine and in the end the lessons learned earning it were far more valuable than the stuff anyway. So kudos to my parents and grandparents for making me responsible and accountable in my actions, and kudos to MJ and ATW for putting out the call to arms for people to demand more of themselves and those they influence. If you give a man a fish you feed him for the day, if you teach a man to fish you feed him for the rest of his life.

Speed+++ to ATW & MJ, and kudos to the rest of you for sharing in this forum!!:eusa_clap:

 

[AlwaysCurious]

(...)if you want to blame someone/something blame the rules of the game -- Not the Players. So let's talk about fixing the game(...)

Exactly my point. People adapt to the system and the consequences of their deeds. If there are no consequences, no wonder they will use the situation for their best.

(...)Professionals are required to go thru extensive training and in the doctor's case, a lengthy residency. A mortgage lender? Real estate agent? Their training is minimal at best and any such profession can be picked up by a newly minted GED high school grad.(...)

...and that expresses exactly how I think of teachers and politicians, those who establish and preserve the rules of the game. They should be the best educated ones! Those professions are the most improtant ones but especially for teachers aren't paid as well. That's a shame! And who educates the parents how to teach responsibility to their children? What about TV ads taking over this educational part and claiming that there is only fun in spending, nothing else?

This thread is hilarious. Touching that many important points I'd like to comment, espacially the parts of education and the role of parents and teachers. Good points btw ATW!

 

[AroundTheWorld]

And who educates the parents how to teach responsibility to their children? What about TV ads taking over this educational part and claiming that there is only fun in spending, nothing else?

It is more of the same entitlement idea. Many parents don't feel responsibility for their kids? Who is responsible for their education? The school system, teachers, school board. Why is responsible for their entertainment? TV. Daycare centers. etc. etc. Who is responsible for developing healthy eating habits? Doctors and school lunch programs... (while buying soda and chips.)

 

[yveskleinsky]

:iagree: This. Fortunately I was raised "old school" I would say. If I wanted something, I could have it, if I found a way to obtain it. When I was a kid, I would mow lawns/rake leaves/shovel snow, etc. Not enough money still, do more houses. If I forgot my lunch, I'd go hungry, and that sure was one hell of a motivator not to forget my lunch again. Not to mention that both my parents were adamant that if I got locked up, I was on my own getting out. A "You found your way in, find your way out" paradigm.

I didn't really appreciate how strong, independent, and accountable they were making me at the time. I was always disappointed that I didn't the "cool new stuff" like everybody else, but what I had was mine and in the end the lessons learned earning it were far more valuable than the stuff anyway. So kudos to my parents and grandparents for making me responsible and accountable in my actions, and kudos to MJ and ATW for putting out the call to arms for people to demand more of themselves and those they influence. If you give a man a fish you feed him for the day, if you teach a man to fish you feed him for the rest of his life.

I couldn't agree more! I am so thankful that my parents cared enough to say no to me as I was growing up- I am who I am today because of it.

 

[rcardin]

Who is responsible for developing healthy eating habits? Doctors and school lunch programs... (while buying soda and chips.)

I see this everyday. my students go through the lunch line and order 2 bags of hot cheetos then have nacho cheese poured over them. Add a gatorade and 2 chocolate chip cookies to this and that is lunch.

 

Dislike ads? Become a Fastlane member: Subscribe today and surround yourself with winners and millionaire mentors, not those broke friends who only want to drink beer and play video games. :-)

[NoMoneyDown]

First of all, I want to state that I am in agreement that a person's responsibility is just that THEIR responsibility.

But I want to play devil's advocate a little.

For the last decade or so I've been a little put off by Corporate greed in this country. Without getting to much into the details, I think a lot of what people do now is driven by what their senses are fed. Lawyers have all but handcuffed teachers in this country, so much so that I'm surprised by what a lot of them have to go through on a daily basis. When I was a kid, and someone got out of line in my class, the teacher wouldn't hesitate to get out the "board of education". Now, I'm not advocating physical harm to instill discipline, but today if a teacher even looks at a student wrong they can be sued by the child's parent (via a salivating attorney all to eager to take the case).

But back to Corporate greed. It's kind of like a spiraling poison whereby Corporations need to cure their bottom line at all costs. Yet investors - both directly or via mutual funds - help feed the hungry beast. The beast then wrings society by squeezing the last bit of coinage we have and the cycle continues. Then we have government that tries to play a two-faced rule by passing legislation to "help" the poor citizen whilst handing out their hand to special interest.

Again, the buck stops at the individual. They are the ones who turn the TV on; they are the ones who accept buying on credit; they are the ones who need to realize THEY are in control and, therefore, are ultimately responsible.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

From The Downfall of Democracy

http://www.apatheticvoter.com/Article_DownfallDemocracies.htm

Although the origin of the “Downfall of Democracies” is often attributed to Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor who lived in the 1700s, the origin of the material below may be attributed to Alexander Tytler, or even Arnold Toynbee, or Lord Thomas Macaulay. Whoever can lay claim to the study of democracies that had existed until that time had remarkable conclusions. He had this to say about democracy in general, “A democracy is always temporary in nature: it simple cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority will always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship.”



Does this sound familiar? With almost one-third of all Americans feeding at the public trough, its only a matter of time before everyone receives some form of benefit and henceforth, the entire country will crash and burn with most likely a military dictatorship filling the void.



The professor went on to say: “The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:



1 From bondage to spiritual faith;

2 From spiritual faith to great courage;

3 From courage to liberty;

4 From liberty to abundance;

5 From abundance to complacency;

6 From complacency to apathy;

7 From apathy to dependence;

8 From dependency back into bondage.”



Does this not sound familiar! We’ve gone from being overtaxed slaves of King George of England, to a new republic that accepted any religious faith, to a wonderful new country with a brilliant constitution, to being the richest country in the world, to today over 50% of the voters are apathetic to politics, to where a major portion of Americans are literally demanding government benefits, to eventually losing all of our freedoms (just read some sections of the Patriot Act). Many people now believe that we are now at the “apathy to dependence” phase of the professor’s theory with over 30% of the nation’s population already having reached the “governmental dependency” phase.

I'd say the stimulus package is an indication of being in between 5 and 6, perhaps 7.

 

[Jill]

Thanks for posting that, MJ. I was actually looking for it earlier so I could post it. Scary stuff. I feel like we're lucky to have made it as long as we have. However, I thought that your bolded quote was from de Tocqueville, but I could certainly be wrong.

I think an individual's personal/philosophical/political belief system places him at different places on that continuum. Many folks I know (and have wasted too much time and good wine arguing with) actually see nothing wrong with "dependency", as they genuinely do not believe that it leads to "bondage".

 

[MJ DeMarco]

However, I thought that your bolded quote was from de Tocqueville, but I could certainly be wrong.

I'm really not sure who said this ... I think there is a debate ongoing who the original author is.

 

[Jill]

You're right, I'm wrong. It wasn't de Toqueville. I just re-read Democracy in America last summer. Thot I remembered it there.

 

Dislike ads? Become a Fastlane member: Subscribe today and surround yourself with winners and millionaire mentors, not those broke friends who only want to drink beer and play video games. :-)

[MJ DeMarco]

How does he do it? How can we?

Here's how you do it:

You earn $100 million.

40% is taxed in the year it is earned leaving $60 million.

97% of the $60 million is put into tax-exempt muni's earning a 3% yield (tax-equivalent about 5%). Then, $1.7+ million of income is spurned off yearly causing no federal taxes. The other 3% is put into higher yielding investments at cut off at the moment the 15% bracket is eclipsed.

This is how you *earn* millions and sit in the 17% bracket. Its very easy if you have $100 gazillion like Buffet.

I remember when John Kerry was running for president and his wife's financials were exposed ... they made millions on tax-exempt munis and also were in the teeny tax bracket.

 

[randallg99]

So much of what is going on today IMO is the WAY WE ARE RAISING OUR KIDS.

or unfortunately seen in much of our society: the lack thereof raising the children.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Here's another story from our great society about how to take responsibility for your actions.

Gambler Sues Casinos for 20 mil.

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/gamble...n/20080308204309990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

 

[WestCoast]

while I agree on all principles the the OP, in fact, it is something I am deeply interested in fixing in society....

I am curious, if the internet, and the instant information age, does not make the problem seem a lot worse than it is. We now easily hear about every little problem ever.

If you go back to the 1920s, people were suing others and businesses for all sorts of stuff, seeking large punitive damages.


There is nothing new under the sun.
I'm not ready to find a new country yet.

I think there are opportunities to make a ton of money off this problem, and I'm more focused on that than getting angry.

Personal responsibility is gone, (moral repercussions aside) how do we all capitalize on this in a fair and ethical, but fast lane way?

 

[PurEnergy]

The commercial with the song "I want it all, and I want it now" says it all. They forgot to leave out the part about, but I don't want to do anything for it.

So, you need to figure out how to give people something for nothing.

 

Dislike ads? Become a Fastlane member: Subscribe today and surround yourself with winners and millionaire mentors, not those broke friends who only want to drink beer and play video games. :-)

[ramy98]

I remember reading the family of a WA peace activist that got ran over by an Israeli military catapillar bulldozer is suing... you guessed it catapillar for their daughter's death ...

 

[Shawn]

Lmao - I get pissed off when I make my quarterly payments too. 40% (and that's just the Fed!) is insane, in IL I gotta pay state too. My wife has a friend of a friend who hasn't paid taxes HER ENTIRE LIFE and she lives in a $1500/month apartment with her two kids and basically scams the government by getting free food, rent, health care, babysitting and money each month as she sits by the pool smoking her free cigarettes at the apartments all day. Unbelievable. Meanwhile I work 12 hour days and invest every cent I have just to give the govt half of what I make each year.

 

[John]

Lmao - I get pissed off when I make my quarterly payments too. 40% (and that's just the Fed!) is insane, in IL I gotta pay state too.

I completely agree. By the time you figure in federal income taxes (35%), medicare and social security taxes (15% if you're self employed), and state income taxes (0-10%) the overall percentage gets to be ridiculous. And this isn't even counting other taxes such as capital gains, property taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, etc...

I don't think I'd be going too far out on a limb to claim that many people in the top tax bracket are paying over 50% of their annual income in taxes each year once all of the above are factored in! It's outrageous that the government can take more than half of the fruits of someone's hard work and leave less than half for the person who actually earned it!

 

[Dejan M]

Does anyone think this economic structure can continue to work for long before it turns socialistic?

This is a question I always wanted to ask an american: why do you see "socialism" as a bad thing? Our country is coming from a communism (no, we´re not bad commies :smx3 and socialism but, ignoring a few political "glitches" - which are not rare even now - very few have these times in memory as bad. Why do you think that free health care and other public services are bad? Can´t we say that even the poorest, if it´s their own fault or not, have the right to health care, schooling and other basic services?

I think most of americans don´t realise that there has been much propaganda between cold war and many things are now accepted as true although they are not (which is still seen on the internet).

http://www.communism.org/#faq

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif] What is Communism?
science vs. bullshit

Scientific definition:

A classless society with no exploitation. No state machine used by one section of the population to oppress another section. No need for professional armies or police forces. No use of production for profit or exchange. Society runs in accord with the principle: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
​

Bullshit definition (ie: commonly believed--but WRONG)

Rule of society by a single party which maintains a monopoly of political power and suppresses all opposition. Control of the economy via centralized bureaucratic planning.
Examples of bullshit definition: the former Soviet Union, China, Cuba, North Korea, etc.
​

[/FONT]

This is a little utopian definition but it is what Marx had in mind with "Das Kapital" and most certainly not Russia or China with their military regimes.

Really looking forward to your answer.

 

[Runum]

OK since we're open for discussion here... consider healthcare. You say in your community it is free health care. How can that be? How do the doctors and nurses get their education? Who pays for that? When the medical professionals go to work how do they get paid? Communism(socailism), as I understand it, means everyone gets the same and every doctor gets paid the same. There is no incentive to be a better doctor or nurse. More work or better services will not result in more money. As far as who pays the doctors and nurses getting paid, if you say they get paid by the government then who gives the government the money to pay them?

Your life in your current state may be acceptable for you. However, if you truly live in a socialistic state, what incentive do you have to do better in your personal and professional life? Why would you be looking at a fastlane to millions board when everything in your life is taken care of by big brother. There must be something lacking in your life or you would not be here.

I'm sure others will jump in here with even more compelling arguments. Good luck.

Greg

 

Dislike ads? Become a Fastlane member: Subscribe today and surround yourself with winners and millionaire mentors, not those broke friends who only want to drink beer and play video games. :-)

[Dejan M]

We do not live anymore in a socialistic country. We are in raw capitalism right now, with some socialistic options (health care, schooling etc.).

I can tell you exactly how it is in my country. Health care, schools, faculties, etc. are paid from taxes. Nobody said that everybody is paid the same salary in communism/socialism! A nurse is of course paid less than a doctor and doctors are not equal - surgant is better paid than a general doctor. But in communism everybody had enough for a normal life. As far as I know there were no homeless people in that time (I´m too young to remember).

The main problem we have here (I don´t know how it is in other EU countries) is what the government does with our tax money. It does not go primarily to the most important things but a lot of it goes to friends´ pockets and for luxuries for their bureacrats. The country itself has enough money if the government would play smart with it.

I cannot tell you how it was with entrepreneurship in communism but now I cannot say that everybody takes care of you. You have your basic needs met (health care, study) but you really need to be working hard and smart to afford a good living.

I agree that there must be incentive but I also think that each and every person should have at least the lowest standard of living guaranteed. Yes they must be working and not be lazy but if they are working and paying taxes and only want to live a "normal" life, why shouldn´t they?

I think it´s really sad to see that hardworking "small" people do not earn enough money to supply their family for food and maybe a week of vacation a year. Don´t we agree here?

 

[Jill]

Dejan ~

I'm hesitant to even post here, because I can see this thread spiraling into a political debate between communism and capitalism. So let me just pose a couple of questions to help you answer your own question.

...you really need to be working hard and smart to afford a good living

Is this a bad thing?

Yes they must be working and not be lazy

What if they are lazy? Should their basic needs still be met by you , if you are one of the hard working? Who determines that? And how?

You seem like a bright guy. I'm assuming you did well in school. If you studied hard and consistently earned high marks (100%) on your exams, would you think it fair if forced to to give 30 points of your score to the guy who didn't study at all, just to cover his basic need of passing the course? What if he said he wasn't "lazy", but just "unlucky"? And how would you discern that?

To answer your question, I don't think that Americans view it as "bad", per se. In fact, in Utopia, it would be great if we all worked hard and helped each other out. I'm only speak for myself here, but I just don't think it is viable. It's never really worked. No nation has even taxed itself into prosperity.

Just a few thoughts and insights from a capitalist. Hope that explains my perspective in a non-offensive way, and gives you a few ideas to chew on.

~ Jill

 

[Dejan M]

Don´t worry it won´t be capitalism VS communism. As long as we keep the debate civilised we´ll be ok.

1. Never said it was a bad thing. I just think that you shouldn´t be killing yourself with work just to survive. There´s more to living than work, right?

2. I did not well in school, I´m also now two years behind my colleagues as I went into entrepreneurship. :smx3:

Ignoring lazy people which I think are still in a minority, I think we still have a problem with people who work hard in a factory and cannot afford a living. I just think that each and every WORKER should have enough for a living. That does not mean a fancy house and a car, it just means a roof, food to feed the family and a week or two for vacation.

We have to understand that not all people are ambitious as for example we are here on this forum. If they just want to have their 8-16 of (good) work and spend the rest with their family, why not let them? And many are not given this although they work fair and hard.

 

[Jill]

...If they just want to have their 8-16 of (good) work and spend the rest with their family, why not let them? And many are not given this although they work fair and hard.

8-16 what? Hours per day?

Ignoring lazy people which I think are still in a minority.

Define "lazy".

 

[Runum]

We do not live anymore in a socialistic country. We are in raw capitalism right now, with some socialistic options (health care, schooling etc.).

Please excuse my assumption. I do agree in a perfect world that we would all work equally and together to ensure we all have what we need. But this is not a perfect world and this dabate has been tested for many centuries. I do think it is sad that people labor for many hours each day and scrape by. I don't think the solution is to just give them more money, especially my money.:eusa_naughty:

 

Dislike ads? Become a Fastlane member: Subscribe today and surround yourself with winners and millionaire mentors, not those broke friends who only want to drink beer and play video games. :-)

[Dejan M]

Sorry, 8-16 is meant 8am-4pm (our version of daily time).

I define lazy as what you should and can do but decide you do not want to. Something in this direction. So if you are capable of doing it you should do it.

Runum: Why not? Do you not support reciprocity in our society? I will gladly lower my wage/profit if it means that one of my workers will be living comfortably. I will also gladly put part of my profit to the government if it takes care of people which might not be so fortunate as I am because of different situations. But of course this does not mean I support lazy people.

I think this really depends in which system and in what spirit we were raised in. I will not try to persuade you, I just wanted to hear the opposite opinion.

And I will gladly read some more.

 

[Jill]

So, if one chooses to only work 7 hrs per day, then he should get 7 hours per day worth of lifestyle for in exchange for it, right?

And if he chooses to drop out of school early and get a low-paying job, then his hourly rate should be less than one who goes to 8 years of college to gain a more "skilled" job, right?

I guess I'm trying to get you to define these terms or "rules" of this system for me because therein lies the challenge (or at least one of them). Who gets to determine whether someone is "lazy"? What if they're just "unlucky" or "unambitious"? What if you think you're working hard, but someone you've never met determines that you're "lazy"?

BTW, you never answered my question about whether you thot it was fair to be forced to give up 30% of the exam score you earned in school in order to give it to the guy who was out partying all night while you studied.

Another question for you: Do you think a married guy with 8 children should be paid more than a single guy for doing the exact same job, in order that they may both have a comfortable lifestyle?

You mention reciprocity. But I don't see it. I see one entity giving and the other entity taking. Perhaps this would be another term to define, so I'll better understand your perspective?

 

[Dejan M]

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. Yes, this is a very hard challenge and is a one that some European countries are trying to overcome. If they will it´s another question.

4. Sorry. I´m with the obvious answer. Still, I think you cannot directly put this into work perspective. Or in this case you could if you say that that person was not working as much as you did. Then of course it is not fair.

5. This is an extreme case but OK. I think that company should not pay him more but that the government could support him. Why? Because these kids will also become taxpayers when they grow up. So you just have to figure out when this calculation is good for the country and when it becomes bad. And of course there should be an upper limit and other systems for discovering abuse.

 

[Runum]

Dejan M I want to be clear that I do support many charities of my choosing. No one chooses those for me.

In your extreme example you say that the government should give the hard working person more money if they are under paid. That seems to indicate to me that you think the government money is free. The government can just give free money away whenever it wants to? Where do you think that money comes from?