What is Happening to Personal Responsibility?

[MJ DeMarco]

DISCLAIMER: This is a personal venting and much of what I say here isn't targeted toward the folks here .. unfortunately, most of "us" (those seeking to improve and educate ourself through hard work) are now in the minority.

What the hell happened to taking responsibility?

What the hell happened to "personal responsibility" in this country? I mean, REAL RESPONSIBILITY -- taking responsibility for YOUR ACTIONS. This country continues to regress ... a regression of lazy, take no-responsibility and put the blame on some other party, as long as it isn't the party in the mirror.

http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/activists-bare-teeth-over-foreclosures/n20080301124209990005

This article, "Activists Bare Teeth Over Foreclosures" reeks of typical "Its not my fault" and "I can't pay my loan" mentality. Since YOU can't pay YOUR loan and YOU MADE THE CHOICE of refinancing or buying a house YOU couldn't afford, its time for YOU to blame someone else. Right? Is that how it works?

How about blaming the high-paid CEO's of the mortgage firms? Yes, they are good to blame ... afterall, we all know, a gun was put to YOUR head as YOU were forced under social duress to take out that 110% LTV ARM.

Last month I wrote a quarterly tax check to the US Treasury in excess of $200K...quarterly taxes so I have 3 more coming. So I pay close to $1m in taxes this year and guess what my tax rebate is? ZERO. Being a productive member of society (I provide jobs and value) is severely penalized by taking 40% of my income. My hard earned money, sweat and tears is redistributed to the most unproductive people in society -- those who haven't even filed taxes for years, people who are likely to spend 110% of their rebate on consumer electronics and retail dining.

Does anyone think this economic structure can continue to work for long before it turns socialistic?

Would anyone take a job in which the less productive worker (the lazy guy that arrives late and leaves early) gets a % of your hard work? No one would accept that in a job environment, but its perfectly acceptable when its apart of government policy.

Poor choices are rewarded in this country. Good choices and hard work? They are penalized. Personally, its not a question about recession, but depression and it has nothing to do with sub-prime -- it has to do with the deterioration of the average American's ability to accept responsibility, their belief of entitlement, and their unwillingness to delay gratification.

Delayed gratification? Huh? Whats that? Should we move on to that topic? Of course not, which is why Visa and MC are one of the few companies out there growing -- because Americans CANNOT and WILL NOT delay gratification. This is why the VISA IPO is HUGE and why I will be investing in it. Its an low-risk opportunity that exploits the weak, American mindset of "spend now and blame someone else later".

Yes, I am short America: Its dollar, its politicians (both in and out of office) and the out-of-control mentality of its growing "majority".

So, are there any libertarian countries in the Carribean? Because really, I'm about to relinquish my citizenship and go live on an Island with my token Pineapple drink with an umbrella on top.....

 

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[Diane Kennedy]

Ditto.

 

[yveskleinsky]

I read the same article yesterday, and it infuriated me as well. Personal responsibility and accountability are becoming more and more rare, and the ramifications scare the crap out of me. ...Where will this Country be in 10 years? sigh.

 

[AlwaysCurious]

Hm, I see the same mentality here in Germany, too, but I wouldn´t go so far, saying the vast majority of people is whining and getting undeserved benefits from a socialist gouvernment. Yes, from a view point considerably above the average you see a majority taking and not giving. Yes, you see many lazy ones and a majority less productive than you are. But please don't forget that there are really many that can not contribute the way you want them to. There are many many weak and humble. IMHO most people are prisoned within their circumstances and their education. If it is difficult for well educated wannabe entrepeneurs to overcome inner obstacles, how can you expect the majority to do so? And what if there are real outer obstacles as well that we really never experienced? Of course there are many black sheep, but as I said, I do not believe it is the majority.

Why are good choices penalized? Because of taxes? Hey, you still are able to earn millions, aren't you? And the possibilities to do so are in our countries much better than in most of the rest of the world.

I think there is also a fault in your thought that lazy unproductive workers are paid from your taxes. It's the whole society and economic system that is paid by that (well, actually taxes are quite unimportant, most of the money comes from the gouvernment taking debts but that's another point). Taxes are the price for you to be in the game. It's part of the rules. Of course you can leave the game, leaving for the Carribean. But to be honest to really change things, you should start by educating the majority.

 

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[rcardin]

Lets start form the bottom.

I teach middle school. It has become our fault as teachers if a student fails. We no longer assign homework because if they don't do it they could fail. We are 23 weeks into the school year and I get parents asking why we haven't contacted them about their child failing 2 or 3 subjects. I believe when I was in school we still had report cards and progress reports, yet these parents have never seen one all year. Somehow this is our fault as educators for not hand delivering them to the parent I guess. Last year my failure rate was roughly 12% and I almost lost my job because I was asking too much from these lazy children.

If this is the way we are raising the leaders of tomorrow we are in a sad state. If the parents can't teach them responsibility at home, what can we expect of them as adults in the real world?

This generation coming through school will never understand the value of a dollar. I have kids on free and reduced lunch wearing 150.00 shoes. These same kids go home and play on their xbox 360 they got for Christmas. They are being taught a something for nothing mentality. This is coming from the same type of parent that will go into foreclosure and just go back to renting an apartment.

Next time you are in McDonalds lean over the register and look at the pictures of the food on it. You no longer have to be able to read to be a cashier and you sure as hell aren't expected to be able to count change. That's how much we have "dumbed down" our society.

Where will we be in 10 years? In a land of bankrupt idiots!!!!!

Fortunately they will all need a place to live and thats where I come in.

 

[Diane Kennedy]

I read the same article yesterday, and it infuriated me as well. Personal responsibility and accountability are becoming more and more rare, and the ramifications scare the crap out of me. ...Where will this Country be in 10 years? sigh.

Yves, I have a feeling that I know where the country will be..and where I won't be.(ie, here) We talk a lot about moving to another country lately.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

IMHO most people are prisoned within their circumstances and their education.

This is a limiting belief ... a crutch to hold up a lifetime of excuses. I educated myself in the area I needed educating by sacrificing my time and making good decisions. I went to the library (Free books, free internet). A small minority (disabled folks, folks born into handicapped situations) are in circumstances that would need aid and that I am happy to assist.

I think there is also a fault in your thought that lazy unproductive workers are paid from your taxes.

I am speaking from experience and I need only to go back to last week to give you an example. An employee of the company I just sold has a daughter on food stamps. Every month she receives $300 in government aid (food stamps) that *should* last the entire month. Well guess what? It was gone in 1 week because she went out and bought CRAB LEGS with her food stamps ... nope, not cereal, bread or vegetables -- CRAB LEGS AT $15.99 a pound. Guess who gets a tax rebate and who doesn't? She does, I don't. Undoubtedly her tax rebate will go toward her high-life diet.

Well is the $300 not enough? The government tells her "Go have more children out of wed-lock, we will increase your $300 to $500".

You see BOTH points in action: I am entitled to CRAB LEGS and FREE MONEY. If I want more free money, I need to make more babies. I don't have issue having my money pay for national defense or to aid the less fortunate: I'm tired of subsidizing the lifestyles of other people so they can have their plasma TV's and crab legs -- at the expense of my hard work.

But to be honest to really change things, you should start by educating the majority.

I am hoping my book can do that but frankly, I think its far too late. Furthermore, the folks that would find my book appealing aren't the problem, but the solution.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Yves, I have a feeling that I know where the country will be..and where I won't be.(ie, here) We talk a lot about moving to another country lately.

Diane, that really makes me feel that I'm not the only one going crazy. I have been discussing moving out of country as well with my close friends and family.

 

[Talkintoy]

I understand and see your point of view. I myself is in this boat but i don't blame anyone. I do admit that I did not educate myself before jumping into this. But i know i had my reasons to do it. Plus its was a great try and fall. =) I came to understand that my failure was not to see the outcome. This is one problem a lot of people don't see. There's people that live day to day life, thier mentality is "how if we die today so why not enjoy it" so they spend what they have etc... It is somewhat true but how if we don't? Some look further up ahead study the road and make plans for better life. I think there's 3 types of people.

1 Society/economy moves them - Whats provided you take
2 They move with society/economy - Keep up with Joneses
3 You control the society/economy - Plan ahead for better

Also i might add that a lot of people has somewhat trust in America and what they provide. Problem is not knowing and understanding it before doing it. Some don't know the outcome until you try. In medicine, we're all guinea pigs to try all the drugs etc... That's why we see a lot of new drugs in commercials coz of the money involve in this. Now the outcome will find out someday that it causes this and that etc... Another is 401K, Social Security etc...might not be enough or even be there, but people still trust this until its too late that its not enough.

Back then its all about trust mostly, but things have changed and its all about taking advantage now instead of giving. They have found somewhat what triggers the society and uses this against them to move the economy.

I guess it wont be bad to educate kids (like i do), but problem is they don't care as they think they're too young to look into this until time is late. There's just no planning, planning i'll say again planning!

Sorry about the explanation, There's a lot of components to this and each part has to get into more detail. Hope you guys understand what i'm trying to say.

 

[Talkintoy]

I am hoping my book can do that but frankly, I think its far too late. Furthermore, the folks that would find my book appealing aren't the problem, but the solution.

We can do what we want and provide all the things or even tell them what to do until we're blue but problem is people still won't. Everyone has to some degree find themselves in a deep bind until they seek and educate themselves, but if they're conditioned and grown up the way they are they will be back in same way. Its a hard struggle within itself. This is what i face upon myself. :smxE:

 

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[Talkintoy]

It has become our fault as teachers if a student fails.

I don't think it's your fault. Depends on how you look into things. Some teachers became teachers only for the job income and some became teachers coz they want to teach, its a passion for them. School is mandated by state if im correct and as RK mentioned that it's old. It is the parents responsibility! Most are too busy trying to make money to keep up with overinflated everything, from gas, to clothing, food, medical, housing etc...! They don't have time to talk to thier kids. Most become like them struggling. :smxE:

 

[kidgas]

This link is for a graph in the Crime and Justice Atlas which shows the crime index increasing markedly in the late 50's and early 60's (see pp. 36-37). Granted the change in definition of larceny would contribute to the increase in baseline but that would be just a one year jump:

http://www.jrsa.org/programs/Historical.pdf

Seems to me this reflects personal responsibility as it relates to one's actions and relations with one's fellow man.

This link is for the number of welfare recipients from 1936 to 1992. Seems to me this reflects one's personal responsibility as relates to one's finances and work ethic:

http://www.childwelfare.com/cw/Chapter8/ch9_files/frame.htm

Again, note the time period of the rapid increase.

Now, consider Engel v Vitale was in 1962 and draw your own conclusions as to what is happening to personal responsibility. I think you can figure out my theory.

 

[Runum]

I teach middle school. It has become our fault as teachers if a student fails. We no longer assign homework because if they don't do it they could fail. We are 23 weeks into the school year and I get parents asking why we haven't contacted them about their child failing 2 or 3 subjects. I believe when I was in school we still had report cards and progress reports, yet these parents have never seen one all year. Somehow this is our fault as educators for not hand delivering them to the parent I guess. Last year my failure rate was roughly 12% and I almost lost my job because I was asking too much from these lazy children.

RC at our school we send home progress reports and report cards every three weeks. They have to be signed by a parent and returned. We also have online grade books accessible to parents on the internet 24/7. We teachers can even see when the child's grades have been accessed. Even then we still get jumped because the child failed and "they(the parents) didn't know a thing and/or we're picking on their kid."

Also in our district the lowest grade a student can get on their report card is a 50. That's right, the kid can literally do nothing and still get credit for 50% of the work.

School is mandated by state if im correct and as RK mentioned that it's old.

Education is mandated by the state. The kids can be home schooled. It may be old but it beats having to expand the welfare system even further than it is now. I do agree the education system doesn't work but, in my opinion, this is because the system is controlled by politicians who have to serve their special interests and are also trying to build private businesses to serve those interests.

Yes, personal responsibility is in the toilet and it will not get any better without some major difficulties. Where is this other country utopia ya'll are considering? Don't broadcast it, just PM me. I may want to join you.:cheers:

 

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[BLSH]

Hello PhxMJ,

I agree with you about laying responsibility where it belongs. Are the people who signed up for the loans to blame? Sure.... But I also believe that for any transaction there are different levels of responsibilities. For e.g. When I go to a lawyer/accountant/doctor/etc for a particular issue, and they give me advise based on which I make a decision. Now if the transaction doesn't work out, I know that I am still ultimately responsible. But I think that the "professionals" should be held to a higher standard because they are professionals and they know or should know how the transaction works.

In my view, in case of the home foreclosure issues, the ones that are handing the loans out should be held at a higher standard than the ones applying for the loans. Haven't we all at some point or another not gotten a "sorry, we cant approve your credit application" letter? (ok, maybe not all -- but at least in my circles ). It's the bank/mortgage brokers/etc. responsibility to screen the credentials on the home mortgage applications to see how credit worthy they are. AND TO DENY THE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE CLEARLY INCAPABLE OF MAKING ENDS MEET -- let alone buying a house!

Everytime in my company, when we bring on a new prospect as a client -- we check their D&B and ask for credit references, and only based on that do we decide to give credit or not -- otherwise, we ask for a payment upfront. We still get stuck with deadbeats from now and then, but at least we did the due diligence in checking them out first. I have worked at companies that didnt do this, and they went the same way as the dinosaurs.

So I agree with you, let's not absolve people of their responsibilities. But lets also not look at the last ditch desperate protests of uneducated people as just a cry for hand-outs for tax money. Let's look at it as how the heck can a banking system get so messed up that ALLOWS for things like this to happen.

Check out this link below that describes the sub-prime mess, and tell me that you still think it's the people that were foreclosed upon are the only ones to blame for this mess.

http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?revision=_latest&fs=true&docID=ddv7hj34_03774hsc7&skipauth=true

Respectfully,

BLSH,

 

[BeingChewsie]

Most are too busy trying to make money to keep up with overinflated everything, from gas, to clothing, food, medical, housing etc...! They don't have time to talk to thier kids. Most become like them struggling. :smxE:

Threadjack: Sorry MJ!

Once again that is a choice and an excuse. I chose a little over a year ago that my son(and time with him) was more important than my BMW X5, my cable TV, getting my nails done, and on and on. I made time...lots of time. I work two (occasionally 3) days a week now...1 (8) hour shift and 1 (16) hour shift and sometimes one additional 8 hour shift..my weekends are my own. I pick him up at the bus every day and send him to school every morning. I'm at all school meetings and we do homework together 4 days a week. If I do two doubles I work 32 paid 40 hours in two days..I make sure I work 4p-11p/11p-7a so he only loses my presence the "3-11" shift, he sleeps the 11-7 shift. I'm a single parent who gets no gov. assistance, no child support, and I have to beg/bribe/threaten his bio-dad to watch him those shifts I work. It is a balancing act.

What most people are trying to do is shove a $75,000/yr lifestyle into a $50,000/yr income...They should at least own that. I did. I changed it, it takes discipline, making better choices, and some creativity but it is absolutely possible to not be constanty chasing the cash rabbit.

 

[kimberland]

What concerns me is the retroactive nature of this "help"
and changes.

Just this week,
I settled with the Cdn tax folks on a change in the code.
This change was applied retroactively
so even though it was legit when I took the deduction
(and the Revenue Canada folks advised me to take it),
the expense got tossed out.
Why?
Because there's a blanket line in the tax law that says
if a taxpayer's sole purpose is to reduce taxes
(why else would you take a deduction),
the agency can disallow it.

Recently my father-in-law had that same thinking
applied to a car he imported.
Even though he imported it a decade ago
and has been driving it happily since,
it is now deemed to be an illegial import
(he can own it, he just can't drive it).

I can see why some people don't bother with the rules
when they change years after you've played the game.

 

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[AroundTheWorld]

I recently picked up 2 "Our American Century" books...... One about the 20's and about the 30's.

I was struck by a few things:

According to this book, the American attitude during the 20's was one of

• Booming Economy
• Consumerism
• Fun and Frivelous Distractions (obsession about royalty visiting the country, etc.)
• An Understanding of More Serious Issues - - but a CHOICE to largely ignore them.

Sound familiar??? (obsession with Britney Spears when there are so many other serious issues that deserve our attention and energy, consumerism, entitlement, until a year ago - a booming economy)

Then, in the weeks following the Crash in 29 political figures and the media were saying things like:

"The fundamental business of the country that is, production and distribution of commodities is on a sound and prosperous basis." - President Hoover in the weeks following the crash.​

and

"Stocks collapse .. But Rally at Close .. Bankers Optimistic."

"Leaders Confer, Find Conditions Sound"

"Wallstreet optimistic after stormy day."​

- - The above were Newspaper headlines, but it is unclear which ones from the book.

I ask again... sound familiar?


Perhaps it is the human condition to forget the history that is too long gone.

We have been living the lush life for too long. We have gotten caught up in the 21st century version of cars and washing machines. We have forgotten about what is important and what hard work means. It will correct itself - as it always does when a group of humans goes too far in one direction.

 

[Edge]

I used to think the entitlement attitude was just with the lower class people, but now I really see it as a middle class problem. It really cracks me up watching all the "investors" with their 401k's thinking that it is the governments job to make sure their 401k goes up in value each year.

 

[bflbob]

Hello PhxMJ,

I agree with you about laying responsibility where it belongs. Are the people who signed up for the loans to blame? Sure.... But I also believe that for any transaction there are different levels of responsibilities. For e.g. When I go to a lawyer/accountant/doctor/etc for a particular issue, and they give me advise based on which I make a decision. Now if the transaction doesn't work out, I know that I am still ultimately responsible. But I think that the "professionals" should be held to a higher standard because they are professionals and they know or should know how the transaction works.

In my view, in case of the home foreclosure issues, the ones that are handing the loans out should be held at a higher standard than the ones applying for the loans.

Boy...I don't know if I agree with this all that much.

I mean, it's one thing to be lied to, and another to be stupid or to take on a risk.

So, if a doctor told me I needed my arm amputated to prevent an infection from spreading, I'd take his advice.
If I later found out I didn't even have an infection, I'd feel right in 'blaming him' for the unneeded surgery.
But, if the infection didn't stop, I'd feel that the doctor did his best but couldn't cover the risk.
Crap happens, and it isn't always someones fault.

Likewise, if a CPA advised me to do something illegal -- their fault.
But if I chose to be aggressive in declaring expenses, and the CPA just transfered it to the tax return -- not their fault.

I own some stocks, and they tanked on Friday, along with the rest of the market.
I took the risk, not Charles Schwab.
Just because I lost, that doesn't get to change.

So...
...if a banker told the homeowner that their mortgage would be 3.5% fixed for 30 years when it was really a 3-year ARM, then that banker should take the blame head-on.

But...
...if you bought a house with a 3.5% 3-year ARM where your mortgage is affordable now, but will be out of reach in a few years, shame on you. It doesn't matter that the rates have been dropping, or that you think you'll be able to sell it for a 100% gain in 2 years or that you'll 'just deal with it later'. Those are the risks you took. If you were hoping that someone was going to tell you that you're an idiot, just to protect you, then you really are an idiot.

It's one thing to say "Crap, I lost", walk away from the deal (that was the risk the lender took), and then get back to the business of living their lives.

It is another to blame the lender for giving you the opportunity to buy a house, albiet one that you couldn't afford in the end. After all, you were given three years to make plans to make things work better.

 

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[BLSH]

Boy...I don't know if I agree with this all that much.

I mean, it's one thing to be lied to, and another to be stupid or to take on a risk.

So, if a doctor told me I needed my arm amputated to prevent an infection from spreading, I'd take his advice.
If I later found out I didn't even have an infection, I'd feel right in 'blaming him' for the unneeded surgery.
But, if the infection didn't stop, I'd feel that the doctor did his best but couldn't cover the risk.
Crap happens, and it isn't always someones fault.

So you are saying: If someone went to the doctor and sd I want to have my arm amputated because I think I have an infection and I just want to chop it off. The doctor wouldnt be held accountable for chopping off the guy "because thats what the guy wanted and I gave it to him and he is the idiot who wanted this and should be held accountable -- not me."

Just because people want something doesnt mean you have to give it to them. This is why there are credit bureaus and guidelines.

People get bombarded with direct mail/telesales/ads/commercials to get people to fulfill the "American Dream" of owning a home -- and then the companies doing the bombardment dont check whether they have stable employment/credit worthiness and just approve the loan to make their numbers. They are just as -- if not more -- accountable than the person who applied.

But...
...if you bought a house with a 3.5% 3-year ARM where your mortgage is affordable now, but will be out of reach in a few years, shame on you. It doesn't matter that the rates have been dropping, or that you think you'll be able to sell it for a 100% gain in 2 years or that you'll 'just deal with it later'. Those are the risks you took. If you were hoping that someone was going to tell you that you're an idiot, just to protect you, then you really are an idiot.

It's one thing to say "Crap, I lost", walk away from the deal (that was the risk the lender took), and then get back to the business of living their lives.

I dont think that being gullible is the same as being an idiot. I dont think being uneducated and not knowing finance makes you an idiot. If you look at what happened, not all poor people that couldnt afford a house were affected by this. Also affected are a whole bunch of middle/upper-middle class people who fell for the sales pitches.

"Gordon Burger is among the first wave of option ARM casualties. The 42-year-old police officer from a suburb of Sacramento, Calif., is stuck in a new mortgage that's making him poorer by the month. Burger, a solid earner with clean credit, has bought and sold several houses in the past. In February he got a flyer from a broker advertising an interest rate of 2.2%. It was an unbeatable opportunity, he thought. If he refinanced the mortgage on his $500,000 home into an option ARM, he could save $14,000 in interest payments over three years. Burger quickly pulled the trigger, switching out of his 5.1% fixed-rate loan. "The payment schedule looked like what we talked about, so I just started signing away," says Burger. He didn't read the fine print."​

http://www.businessweek.com/magazin...01.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_top+story​

You made some bad decisions in stock market and you are lucky to walk away from it by saying --- eh thats not too bad a hit. That is not the same as people losing their house. For most people their home is the biggest investment they will ever make. And its a little difficult to be just walk away when you are out of your dream house and have your credit shot at the same time. Its kinda hard to rebound from that.

It is another to blame the lender for giving you the opportunity to buy a house, albiet one that you couldn't afford in the end. After all, you were given three years to make plans to make things work better.

Banks and brokers are in the business of making money. This "providing opportunities" to buy a house or "making dreams come true" is a whole lot of hot air.

My whole point is not to say that the people that signed up should be absolved of any blame. All I am saying is that put the blame EVERYwhere it belongs -- not just on the ones that lost the houses.

On a personal note, I bought my first home in April. I put down 20% and got a low rate for a fixed rate for the 30 yr mortgage -- that was before the 2.25% Fed rate cut. I was lucky enough to have the support from people that helped me make the right decision. If I didnt have them, I could very easily have been in an ARM situation like some others I know.

I agree with the original post about the entitlement mentality of the people in this country and that the foreclosed upon deserve to be blamed. All I am saying is that they dont deserve ALL the blame. I am not saying bail out the people who lost their houses, in fact I think there should be no government bailouts whatsoever -- not for the people and more importantly, not for the banks.

Best,

 

[Jill]

Wow! PhxMX, I totally agree with everything you said. I'm not inclined to elaborate, because I don't want anyone on here to hate me, being a newbie and all!! But let's just say that I have very little sympathy for people who make bad choices AND try to blame their outcomes on someone/something other than themselves.

Important note: I've made lots of bad decisions. I acknowledge and accept that fact. I try really hard not to blame people who weren't in the room when I made those decisions. But that's the fun in my life. I get to take all the credit and all the blame for where I am in life. Is it always 100% on me? No! Not in either case! But for the most part, we are ALL where we are in life because of decisions we have made to this point.

[Edited to redact all the anecdotes that would illustrate why I agree.]

 

[biophase]

You made some bad decisions in stock market and you are lucky to walk away from it by saying --- eh thats not too bad a hit. That is not the same as people losing their house. For most people their home is the biggest investment they will ever make. And its a little difficult to be just walk away when you are out of your dream house and have your credit shot at the same time. Its kinda hard to rebound from that.

How is this not the same? Boo hoo people lost their house. What if I lost $100k in Friday in the market. How is this any different?

The problem is we think that people are different because they make different amounts of money. Just because their home could be their biggest investment and my stocks could be my 3rd biggest investment doesn't make it any different.

We both made our decisions and live by them.

In that story you posted how could that guy not know that his 2.2% rate was going to rise. He didn't read the fine print?? There is no fine print. Every single ARM I have has a separate one page document that says "ADJUSTABLE RATE RIDER" in bold at the top. It is a separate document. Not some sentence stated in 6pt type.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the uneducated are idiots for signing something they didn't understand. Uneducated doesn't mean low income, it just means people who didn't take the time to clearly understand what they were doing. We've all sat through the mortgage signing process. If you read every document you're closing will take you 2 hours. Guess what, there is no time limit on how long you can sit there. Read the damn documents!!!

Let's say I go out and buy a new Ferrari and I take it out to Laguna Seca and crash it into the wall on my first lap. I was clearly uneducated in the skill of track driving. Would you say that I was an idiot to bring such a high performance vehicle on a difficult track for my first run? I'd think that many people would say that. Or is Ferrari to blame because their salesperson did not warn me about trailing throttle oversteer?

What pisses me off is that article about that group harassing the CEO. Unfortunately, the CEO is a high profile person and cannot retaliate against the group or its leader. If a normal person was being harassed like that I don't think the people in those vans would be feeling too safe about throwing stuff on his lawn.

 

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[taichijedi]

I could not agree more with the OP. PhxMJ nailed it again. One thing about today's society is that everyone seems to be getting hypersensitive about everything, and no one OWNS their decisions. Regardless of whether or not you are met with success or failure, it is still the individual's responsibility to choose their life's path and own that decision. Even if I go to a professional and seek their counsel (be it a doctor, lawyer, or accountant) after they have dispensed their wisdom (or lack thereof) it is still solely MY RESPONSIBILITY to determine if that advice is relevant and in my best interest. That is why many people seek second opinions, but no opinion is better than your own common sense and accountability.

 

[carlhuber]

I regularly read a blog for the "survivalist" minded people. Very interesting mindset. They often post about the falling value of the dollar, impending doom, blah blah blah. Any time it's brought up about people complaining about losing their houses and how evil "the companies" are, etc. the guy who runs the blog brings up a great point. Look at the background of the pictures in the articles. This terribly put-upon and suffering person is usually standing in front of a totally hardwood kitchen with a 2" granite countertop, a complete kitchen's line of unused pots and pans hanging from the ceiling and a fridge big enough to store a bison.

Hard to feel sorry for them.

I do, however, empathize with the people who get lied to by deceitful sales people and tricked into taking on more of a financial burden than they can bear.

 

[John]

Rep++ for MJ.

Thanks for putting into words exactly how I, and I'm sure many others here, feel. It brought tears to my eyes and gave me a much needed lift just to be reminded that there are still other people out there who feel the same way.

I don't have anything to add. You've summed it up perfectly. If you ever find that libertarian island in the Carribean please email me the location before you disappear.

 

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[BLSH]

How is this not the same? Boo hoo people lost their house. What if I lost $100k in Friday in the market. How is this any different?

The problem is we think that people are different because they make different amounts of money. Just because their home could be their biggest investment and my stocks could be my 3rd biggest investment doesn't make it any different.

We both made our decisions and live by them.

The difference is in the impact/effect the loss has. In your case you are using it as an investment to earn more money whereas in the other case people are losing the place where they live.

You are right in that the amount of $$ lost might be the same -- but the impact is certainly not the same on both individuals.

I thought that we wanted to hold people accountable for their own actions. Just like we held the Countrywide CEO accountable by giving him $110 Mill and change for the stuff that happened on his watch? This is on top of the $140 Mil+ for stock options he cashed out earlier in 2006/2007. I don't see anyone trying hold him accountable.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/01/mozilo-severanc.html
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Everyone talks about the "handouts" that people get due to programs at the same time ignoring the billions of dollars of tax handouts given to companies.

"Guess who's helping Bank of America pay for its $4.1 billion purchase of Countrywide Financial? Answer: The taxpayers of the United States....
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http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/11/news/companies/sloan_countrywide.fortune/index.htm?cnn=yes

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The way I look at it its a game; the people that sign up for loans and the people that provide the loans are players in the game. Its a game that benefits both sides, no one is it this game for the other to come out ahead. So if you want to blame someone/something blame the rules of the game -- Not the Players.

So let's talk about fixing the game.... not really productive in my mind to blame one over the other.

Wow! PhxMX, ..... I'm not inclined to elaborate, because I don't want anyone on here to hate me, being a newbie and all!!

I hope that fear of being hated doesn't stop anyone from participating in this forum and sharing their views no matter how different/unpolular they may be. And I sure hope no one hates me for having my opinion :smx3:. My opinion is based on what I have learned so far in my life, and it may/may not change based on discussions that we have here. That's why I am here, to learn and share what I have learned......

Best,

 

[MJ DeMarco]

So you are saying: If someone went to the doctor and sd I want to have my arm amputated because I think I have an infection and I just want to chop it off. The doctor wouldnt be held accountable for chopping off the guy "because thats what the guy wanted and I gave it to him and he is the idiot who wanted this and should be held accountable -- not me."

There is an implied warranty of specific performance with a *professional* such as a physician or lawyer and to compare any mortgage lender with a doctor is like comparing the purchase of a Single-Family Residence to the purchase of a 80 story skyscraper.

Professionals are required to go thru extensive training and in the doctor's case, a lengthy residency. A mortgage lender? Real estate agent? Their training is minimal at best and any such profession can be picked up by a newly minted GED high school grad.

The educational process of consumer finance is a few days and readily accessible; the process of performing a surgery isn't.

Sure we can assess some culpability to these bankers and mortgage lenders for completing the transaction. For every greedy person looking to do a deal, there is another greedy person willing to take it.

In every transaction initiated by GREED, there is another party on the opposite side of the transaction taking your offer rooted in the same vice. When two parties conspire out of GREED, you can bet the results will not be favorable to one party, or both. This same transaction mentality existed in the 90's tech stock boom.

We have two entities motivated by GREED; the homeowner salivating at "free", undocumented money and the vision of living in their dream house, and the lender who hunts for the commission. Both parties are guilty and to put the sole blame on the lenders is assinine.

Look at the background of the pictures in the articles. This terribly put-upon and suffering person is usually standing in front of a totally hardwood kitchen with a 2" granite countertop, a complete kitchen's line of unused pots and pans hanging from the ceiling and a fridge big enough to store a bison.

Exactly, and we are the people stuck financing their lifestyle as if they are entitled to the hardwood floors and granite countertops. The idea of selling the Plasma TV, selling the Lincoln Navigator, postponing your daughter's dance lessons, and downsizing the 3500 square foot house is unheard of -- take the short sale instead and let the taxpayers foot the bill.

Thanks.

 

[hakrjak]

MJ -

I had the same thoughts on the subject, and if I were in your position (Able to earn my income no matter where I was, virtually, etc) -- I'd be looking strongly at countries to move to where the government would leave me alone, or atleast allow me some tax-free ways to keep investing my money so that I don't get raped each year.

40% is ridiculous, and too much for anyone to pay.

Nobody should have to pay a million dollars or more to the goverment each year -- that is just bordering on being criminal. Our fore-fathers would be rolling over in their graves right now if they knew about this....

Cheers,

- Hakrjak

 

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[AroundTheWorld]

So much of what is going on today IMO is the WAY WE ARE RAISING OUR KIDS.

For the most part, I see family after family in which the kids are brought up from a very young age feeling that they are ENTITLED. This started a while back - maybe with the baby boomer kids (?) Parents want the kids to "have a better life then I had." So, the kids are given a good "start." This, unfortunately leads to entitlement and it carries over into adulthood.

• Kids are given what ever new toy they are asked for.
• They are not expected to work.
• They grow up believing that they are entitled to have college paid for and/or an inheritance.
• They don't have to do chores around the house..... maybe their parents say so - but the kids know that if they whine loud enough they will out of it.
• Parents BAIL THEIR KIDS OUT of trouble EVERY DAY...

• Forgot your lunch? I'll bring it right down.
• Kid picking on you? I'll punch him out.
• Ran up a credit card balance while you were in college? I'll pay for it.
• Got picked up driving drunk? I'll bail you out of jail.

 

[BLSH]

We have two entities motivated by GREED; the homeowner salivating at "free", undocumented money and the vision of living in their dream house, and the lender who hunts for the commission. Both parties are guilty and to put the sole blame on the lenders is assinine.

For the record and if you read my posts I never said and don't believe that the lenders are the SOLE ones to blame.

40% is ridiculous, and too much for anyone to pay.

Nobody should have to pay a million dollars or more to the goverment each year -- that is just bordering on being criminal. Our fore-fathers would be rolling over in their graves right now if they knew about this....

Yes, 40% is a ridiculous amount to pay in taxes. I don't know how you can minimize your liabilities, but there certainly are ways. Warren Buffet, who is so successful that he deserves his own personalized fast lane, only pays 17.7% on his $46,000,000 income.

"Last year, Buffett said, he was taxed at 17.7 percent on his taxable income of more than $46 million. His receptionist was taxed at about 30 percent.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/27/AR2007062700097.html"
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How does he do it? How can we?