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OFF-TOPIC The New US Tax Plan and Your New 50% Biz Partner (the US Gov)

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I didn't see a thread on this but it looks like it will be big news...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-22/biden-to-propose-capital-gains-tax-as-high-as-43-4-for-wealthy

President Joe Biden will propose almost doubling the capital gains tax rate for wealthy individuals to 39.6% to help pay for a raft of social spending that addresses long-standing inequality, according to people familiar with the proposal.

For those earning $1 million or more, the new top rate, coupled with an existing surtax on investment income, means that federal tax rates for wealthy investors could be as high as 43.4%. The new marginal 39.6% rate would be an increase from the current base rate of 20%, the people said on the condition of anonymity because the plan is not yet public.

A 3.8% tax on investment income that funds Obamacare would be kept in place, pushing the tax rate on returns on financial assets higher than rates on some wage and salary income, they said.

Stocks slid the most in more than a month on the news, with the S&P 500 Index down 0.9% at the close. Ten-year Treasury yields fell to 1.54% from an intraday high of 1.59% before Bloomberg’s report.

The proposal could reverse a long-standing provision of the tax code that taxes returns on investment lower than on labor. Biden campaigned on equalizing the capital gains and income tax rates for wealthy individuals, saying it’s unfair that many of them pay lower rates than middle-class workers.

White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki, asked about the capital-gains plan at a press briefing Thursday, said, “we’re still finalizing what the pay-fors look like.” Biden is expected to release the proposal next week as part of the tax increases to fund social spending in the forthcoming “American Families Plan.”


Other measures that the administration has discussed in recent weeks include enhancing the estate tax for the wealthy. Biden has warned that those earning over $400,000 can expect to pay more in taxes. The White House has already rolled out plans for corporate tax hikes, which go to fund the $2.25 trillion infrastructure-focused “American Jobs Plan.”

Republicans have insisted on retaining the 2017 tax cuts implemented by former President Donald Trump, and argued that the current capital-gains framework encourages saving and promotes future economic growth.

“It’s going to cut down on investment and cause unemployment,” Chuck Grassley of Iowa, a top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee and former chair of that panel, said of the Biden capital-gains plan. He lauded the result of the 2017 tax cuts, and said, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

Biden will detail the American Families Plan in a joint address to Congress on April 28. It is set to include a wave of new spending on children and education, including a temporary extension of an expanded child tax credit that would give parents up to $300 a month for young children or $250 for those six and older.

Biden’s proposal to equalize the tax rates for wage and capital gains income for high earners would greatly curb the favorable tax treatment on so-called carried interest, which is the cut of profits on investments taken by private equity and hedge fund managers.

The plan would effectively end carried interest benefits for fund managers making more than $1 million, because they wouldn’t be able to pay lower capital gains rates on their earnings. Those earning less than $1 million may be able to still claim the tax break, unless Biden repeals the tax provision entirely.

The capital gains increase would raise $370 billion over a decade, according to an estimate from the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center based on Biden’s campaign platform.

For $1 million earners in high-tax states, rates on capital gains could be above 50%. For New Yorkers, the combined state and federal capital gains rate could be as high as 52.22%. For Californians, it could be 56.7%.

Democrats have said current capital gains rates largely help top earners who get their income through investments rather than in the form of wages, resulting in lower tax rates for wealthy people than those they employ.

Capital gains taxes are paid when an asset is sold, and are applied to the amount of appreciation on the asset from when it was bought to when it is sold.

Congressional Democrats have separately proposed a series of changes to capital-gains taxation, including imposing the levies annually instead of when they are sold.

“There ought to be equal treatment for wages and wealth,” Senate Finance Committee Chairman Ron Wyden, an Oregon Democrat who’s the chamber’s top tax-writer, told reporters in a phone briefing Thursday. “On the Finance Committee we will be ready to raise whatever sums the Senate Democratic caucus thinks are necessary.”
 

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Branko

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I didn't see a thread on this but it looks like it will be big news...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-22/biden-to-propose-capital-gains-tax-as-high-as-43-4-for-wealthy

President Joe Biden will propose almost doubling the capital gains tax rate for wealthy individuals to 39.6% to help pay for a raft of social spending that addresses long-standing inequality, according to people familiar with the proposal.

For those earning $1 million or more, the new top rate, coupled with an existing surtax on investment income, means that federal tax rates for wealthy investors could be as high as 43.4%. The new marginal 39.6% rate would be an increase from the current base rate of 20%, the people said on the condition of anonymity because the plan is not yet public.

A 3.8% tax on investment income that funds Obamacare would be kept in place, pushing the tax rate on returns on financial assets higher than rates on some wage and salary income, they said.

Stocks slid the most in more than a month on the news, with the S&P 500 Index down 0.9% at the close. Ten-year Treasury yields fell to 1.54% from an intraday high of 1.59% before Bloomberg’s report.

The proposal could reverse a long-standing provision of the tax code that taxes returns on investment lower than on labor. Biden campaigned on equalizing the capital gains and income tax rates for wealthy individuals, saying it’s unfair that many of them pay lower rates than middle-class workers.

White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki, asked about the capital-gains plan at a press briefing Thursday, said, “we’re still finalizing what the pay-fors look like.” Biden is expected to release the proposal next week as part of the tax increases to fund social spending in the forthcoming “American Families Plan.”


Other measures that the administration has discussed in recent weeks include enhancing the estate tax for the wealthy. Biden has warned that those earning over $400,000 can expect to pay more in taxes. The White House has already rolled out plans for corporate tax hikes, which go to fund the $2.25 trillion infrastructure-focused “American Jobs Plan.”

Republicans have insisted on retaining the 2017 tax cuts implemented by former President Donald Trump, and argued that the current capital-gains framework encourages saving and promotes future economic growth.

“It’s going to cut down on investment and cause unemployment,” Chuck Grassley of Iowa, a top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee and former chair of that panel, said of the Biden capital-gains plan. He lauded the result of the 2017 tax cuts, and said, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

Biden will detail the American Families Plan in a joint address to Congress on April 28. It is set to include a wave of new spending on children and education, including a temporary extension of an expanded child tax credit that would give parents up to $300 a month for young children or $250 for those six and older.

Biden’s proposal to equalize the tax rates for wage and capital gains income for high earners would greatly curb the favorable tax treatment on so-called carried interest, which is the cut of profits on investments taken by private equity and hedge fund managers.

The plan would effectively end carried interest benefits for fund managers making more than $1 million, because they wouldn’t be able to pay lower capital gains rates on their earnings. Those earning less than $1 million may be able to still claim the tax break, unless Biden repeals the tax provision entirely.

The capital gains increase would raise $370 billion over a decade, according to an estimate from the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center based on Biden’s campaign platform.

For $1 million earners in high-tax states, rates on capital gains could be above 50%. For New Yorkers, the combined state and federal capital gains rate could be as high as 52.22%. For Californians, it could be 56.7%.

Democrats have said current capital gains rates largely help top earners who get their income through investments rather than in the form of wages, resulting in lower tax rates for wealthy people than those they employ.

Capital gains taxes are paid when an asset is sold, and are applied to the amount of appreciation on the asset from when it was bought to when it is sold.

Congressional Democrats have separately proposed a series of changes to capital-gains taxation, including imposing the levies annually instead of when they are sold.

“There ought to be equal treatment for wages and wealth,” Senate Finance Committee Chairman Ron Wyden, an Oregon Democrat who’s the chamber’s top tax-writer, told reporters in a phone briefing Thursday. “On the Finance Committee we will be ready to raise whatever sums the Senate Democratic caucus thinks are necessary.”
Very demoralising for the future...
I don't think mr.Biden can robinhood his way into an equality utopia. You can't just go and buy equality. Throwing money at the problem won't help heal its source.

If only there was a way to reorganize the spending of taxpayers money. Either you're investing into the military complex/technology or into the healing of society. Can't have it both ways.
 

MTF

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For $1 million earners in high-tax states, rates on capital gains could be above 50%. For New Yorkers, the combined state and federal capital gains rate could be as high as 52.22%. For Californians, it could be 56.7%.

In Scandinavian countries you at least get something in return. In NY and California, you not only get nothing, you actually keep giving more and get less and less each year. What a great way to attract new talent and keep the one you have lol.

I wouldn't bother investing at all if I had to give more than 50% to the government for doing nothing.
 

MTF

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What do they get?

Example:

Another article:

Indeed, citizens’ satisfaction is related to what they get for their tax dollars, Sachs tells CNBC Make It: “They are happy because these societies are not only prosperous but also with high equality, social trust and honesty of government. They enjoy long paid vacations, zero out-of-pocket costs of health care, zero or low tuition costs and quality public services for all.”

He adds that, “by the way, they are also environmentally conscious and moving to become zero-emission economies.”

I'm not cheering high taxes, just pointing out they can offer different things in different countries.
 

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Trust me when I say that this will not end up nearly as high as the first proposed plan.

Secondly, I think it is foolish and remarkably predictable of the neoliberals to suggest a short term plan like this that doesn't actually solve the real problem. A more effective and long term proposal to strengthen America and create adequate social mobility and GDP output would be raising the inheritence tax or perhaps a capital gains tax on networths above 100m that depends on how long the person has held that net worth.

edit: can I buy stock in the Camen Isles? lol
 

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Example:

Another article:



I'm not cheering high taxes, just pointing out they can offer different things in different countries.
Majority of the budget in U.S. go to social security, medicare, and defence.

Other than retiree that directly benefit, I doubt if patients and soldiers actually benefit from these budget directly (judging from the conplaints of veterans suicide and patients complaining about high cost. Most perhaps go into the pocket of “contractors” in the defence and biomedical business.
 

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Its fair.
I thought about a little bit and conclusion isn't fun:

When one earns from non productive things,
stocks, crypto, gold, then one should pay tax
exactly same as dentist who gets paid above $400k.
That's what i called "fair".

The problem appears when someone invests into
new company that produces something and
creates new jobs.

Basically entrepreneur who earns $400k and employs
5 people is more valuable than dentist who is
self-employed and hires no one.
Also such entrepreneur probably spent more time
and effort to achieve that.
Taxing them same (assuming that $400k comes from dividends)
isn't fair.

EDIT:
But we go into murky water here.

Should surgeon who saves many lives per month
and gets $400k be taxed same as a person who
is hiring 5 people to bring fidgets spinners to the market?

That's the part that isn't fun.
"Fair" quickly becomes much harder to define.
 
Last edited:

wouldntitbenice

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Has any source reported whether the tax will be increased equally across all types of capital gains? That's the most important thing to know.

I have never been persuaded by the argument that someone that buys stock should be taxed at a lower rate than someone who produces for their income. Aside from the rare occurrence of buying new issues of stock from an existing public company, the act of stock trading does not inject capital into the economy*. The argument for a lower capital gains tax that I hear most often is that a lower rate promotes savings, but the majority of Americans that invest in the stock market do it through a retirement account, where a capital gains rate doesn't matter because distributions are taxed at the income rate.

If a lower capital gains tax on stock investments promotes savings, but the lower tax encourages the person saving to cash out, isn't that a paradox?

* An IPO injects capital by rewarding venture capitalists that took a gamble, but like new stock issues, IPOs are a small portion of the overall market, and the relative size weakens proponent's arguments, in my opinion. I'm not aware of any correlation between capital gains tax rates and quantity of IPOs, but it's easy to see the number of IPOs increases and decreases with the overall economy, so just maybe venture capitalists are swayed more by economic forecasts than tax rates.

Even without researching the origins of the capital gains tax, a person can come to the conclusion that the capital gains tax, as it applies to stock investments, exists for the wealthy.

Capital gains concerning business creation is a whole other matter, but I don't think it's what people (yes, even politicians) consider when debating capital gains taxes. Anyone that says an owner has reaped the rewards of entrepreneurship through their salary, and therefore, earning a smaller reward at sell due to higher a capital gains tax is okay, doesn't know how hard and scary entrepreneurship is. With that said, I have a strong hunch that most people don't start a business with a capital gain sell in mind or a motivator*.

*Silicone Valley starts ups are not most entrepreneurs.

I don't believe capital gains from stock investments and business creations should be treated the same, but when debating the issue of rates, it's important to speak about them separately. I don't know which would be easier, making and enforcing a distinction between the two in the tax code, allowing a once in a lifetime capital gain exemption, which would cover the vast majority of entrepreneurs, or having no capital gains and a very strong estate tax that eventually captures the forgone capital gains*.

*The estate tax only kicks in after $11 MM or $22 MM for those married, and at those high numbers, very little capital gains tax would be recoupled if the tax was replaced with only an estate tax.
 

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Example:

Another article:



I'm not cheering high taxes, just pointing out they can offer different things in different countries.
Hi MTF

I live in Denmark (Scandinavia). When everything is added up I pay approximately 75% of taxes of my income, and the storytelling from the socialists is that we have a better safety net for let's say.. unemployment. That's just not true, and people are drawing privately made insurances AND paying what looks like the highest tax in the western world. My wife is concerned about having a cancerous nodule and the system's reply is that she can get checked in 3 months - with that result, I pay a private hospital for the checkup AND paying an unfairly high tax.

Denmark (and Scandinavia) is about to destroy competitiveness, and it's a sparkling example of why incompetent people (politicians) never should have access to other people's money.

When I secured myself and my family economically the dream is to move to a country like Switzerland or Austria which operates on a much more decentralized system. Scandinavia right now is killing all creativity and willingness to take risks.

Just my 50 cents.
 

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My wife is concerned about having a cancerous nodule and the system's reply is that she can get checked in 3 months - with that result, I pay a private hospital for the checkup AND paying an unfairly high tax.

That's terrible. Is it always like that or is it just now because of COVID?
 

Thrane

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That's terrible. Is it always like that or is it just now because of COVID?

Concerning the tax it's always like that - and it's just getting worse. For example, the politicians discussing new taxes imposed on new cars. Let's consider an extreme example:

My dream car is a Porsche Panamera Turbo S. The price in Denmark is about 3.5 million DKK. (568K Dollars). 1 hour from where I live, in Sweden, the same car is about 1.3 million DKK (214K Dollars). Why the f*uck should I pay double up the money, just because I live in the wrong country? Taxes like these kill initiatives to do something beyond mediocrity.

I don't know how much COVID affected the health system, so I can't really answer that question. But let me display yet another example of the situation. Two years ago I contacted my doctor concerning I might have depression. 2 months later he had time to take me in. The consultation took about 10 minutes, and he referred me to a psychologist. I had to wait half a year for the psychologist to have time for me - which resulted that I dropped it all and healing myself with help from friends that are psychologists.
 

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I don't know how much COVID affected the health system, so I can't really answer that question. But let me display yet another example of the situation. Two years ago I contacted my doctor concerning I might have depression. 2 months later he had time to take me in. The consultation took about 10 minutes, and he referred me to a psychologist. I had to wait half a year for the psychologist to have time for me - which resulted that I dropped it all and healing myself with help from friends that are psychologists.
The same happens here in Italy. Taxes aren't as high as in your country (they are still crazy high), but having public healthcare means having to put up with endless waiting lists sometimes.

Private healthcare is an option, but it's more expenses on top of how many taxes the government already extracts from your labor, so if you're not at least moderately wealthy you can forget about it.
 

thechosen1

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Considering a big part of fastlane is to sell your company, this policy 100% sucks.

Hope none of it passes or we get another Trump in office who will slash it back down.
 

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Considering a big part of fastlane is to sell your company, this policy 100% sucks.

If you own (or invest in) a domestic c-corp, the first $10m can be exempt from cap gains in certain cases assuming the company was never valued over $50m. Over that amount, agreed, this would suck. The proposed 28% corp tax would also make c-corps less attractive though.

 

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thechosen1

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If you own (or invest in) a domestic c-corp, the first $10m can be exempt from cap gains in certain cases assuming the company was never valued over $50m. Over that amount, agreed, this would suck. The proposed 28% corp tax would also make c-corps less attractive though.

Interesting. I thought that the new proposal is for capital gains much, much lower than $10m.
 

redshift

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Interesting. I thought that the new proposal is for capital gains much, much lower than $10m.

Yeah, the link I posted above would only apply to a biz setup as a domestic c-corp (and that also has a few conditions as mentioned in there), i.e the "selling a fastlane business" case.

Everything else (stocks, re, llc's etc) would get the newer rate way before the 10m.
 

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And now they're talking about applying the 3.8% investment income tax to all S-Corp earnings.

At some point, it will just pay for me to sell everything and contribute NOTHING to the economy and the cancer that feeds off it.
 

e_fastlane

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Yeah, the link I posted above would only apply to a biz setup as a domestic c-corp (and that also has a few conditions as mentioned in there), i.e the "selling a fastlane business" case.

Everything else (stocks, re, llc's etc) would get the newer rate way before the 10m.
I would imagine that very little fastlaners are C-corps. I would guess almost all are corporations or llc's taxes as s-corps. So these new capital gains taxes would kill the profit from a company sale above 1m.

Anyone know if they are planning on doing retroactive to January 2021? Everything I have read has said "I don't know"
 

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I would imagine that very little fastlaners are C-corps. I would guess almost all are corporations or llc's taxes as s-corps. So these new capital gains taxes would kill the profit from a company sale above 1m.

Anyone know if they are planning on doing retroactive to January 2021? Everything I have read has said "I don't know"
Corporations?

C-corps are corporations...

Our main business is a c-Corp. we had 250 employees at Max and are still a “small business.”

Look up the numbers. Main benefit of a c-corp (a typical corporation) is that you pay lower taxes while your business grows.

The biz compounds internally at a lower tax rate than if you did it through an LLC (which is also a type of corporation - they just don’t get corporate tax treatment) or sole prop (zero legal protection, dumb way to do it if your biz is substantial at all).
 

redshift

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Biden’s measures will include $80 billion to boost the Internal Revenue Service’s audit capabilities over the next decade for wealthy individuals and corporations.

Well, this sounds fun.
 

e_fastlane

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Corporations?

C-corps are corporations...

Our main business is a c-Corp. we had 250 employees at Max and are still a “small business.”

Look up the numbers. Main benefit of a c-corp (a typical corporation) is that you pay lower taxes while your business grows.

The biz compounds internally at a lower tax rate than if you did it through an LLC (which is also a type of corporation - they just don’t get corporate tax treatment) or sole prop (zero legal protection, dumb way to do it if your biz is substantial at all).
I didnt say c Corp isn't a corporation, just that most here have corporations and llc that are taxed as S-corps and not C-corps. Don't believe me, start a poll.

S-corps provide the same full legal protection for owners, under the circumstances that most small businesses are run here. (Not 250 employee businesses)

I'm not saying an S-corp is better for you, as every business has to decide what is best for themselves. But for most typcal small businesses discussed here , C-corps would provide no benefit but would lead to double taxation. Your business with 250 employees is extremely far and away from most small businesses and especially the fastlane businesses on here. (Even if legally it is still classified as small business)

Again, if you don't believe me, start a poll on here to see how many of peoples businesses are setup as c-corps. Maybe I'm wrong and will have to eat my words.
 

Beerbread

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And now they're talking about applying the 3.8% investment income tax to all S-Corp earnings.

At some point, it will just pay for me to sell everything and contribute NOTHING to the economy and the cancer that feeds off it.
Reminds me of the Roman Empire and their taxes:

ACCORDING TO HISTORIAN JOSEPH TAINTER, “THOSE WHO LIVED OFF THE TREASURY WERE MORE NUMEROUS THAN THOSE PAYING INTO IT.”

There's more articles that go more in depth with this, but this gives a nice cliffnotes version. We just need the army to pay more than the typical civilian wage and then you're set.
 

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I didnt say c Corp isn't a corporation, just that most here have corporations and llc that are taxed as S-corps and not C-corps. Don't believe me, start a poll.

S-corps provide the same full legal protection for owners, under the circumstances that most small businesses are run here. (Not 250 employee businesses)

I'm not saying an S-corp is better for you, as every business has to decide what is best for themselves. But for most typcal small businesses discussed here , C-corps would provide no benefit but would lead to double taxation. Your business with 250 employees is extremely far and away from most small businesses and especially the fastlane businesses on here. (Even if legally it is still classified as small business)

Again, if you don't believe me, start a poll on here to see how many of peoples businesses are setup as c-corps. Maybe I'm wrong and will have to eat my words.
I believe you about what is "average." I'm just sharing with you factual information.

A "small business" can have gross sales of up to $50 million or so.

And yes, that is quite small when you look at what companies in the S&P 500 do in a year.
 

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