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The Antiwork Movement, Lazy or Enlightened?

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Charnell

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What are going to think about their decision in 20 years -- or heck -- how about next year????
Probably something along the lines of "damn, I'm so glad I made more money this last year than the year prior. So glad I switched jobs because staying at one job for 30 years isn't a good financial decision. Will probably do it again next year to make more money."
 
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WJK

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Probably something along the lines of "damn, I'm so glad I made more money this last year than the year prior. So glad I switched jobs because staying at one job for 30 years isn't a good financial decision. Will probably do it again next year to make more money."
Nah, you missed the point. In the long run, it won't matter. No matter where you go, you must take yourself with you. Change only counts IF it's internal -- not your location -- your salary -- your boss... This movement is setting these people up to always think that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
 

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Nah, you missed the point. In the long run, it won't matter. No matter where you go, you must take yourself with you. Change only counts IF it's internal -- not your location -- your salary -- your boss... This movement is setting these people up to always think that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
From my experience in both 'quitting' and 'internal' I found it was just that I was unable to explain it - though to so many (in my circle) it looks like one or the other. Being a year into this, I am finding the show (my circle) interesting where before it was mostly pain and confusion. The truth is, from my experience, that NOW is the only moment that counts. At any moment the reader of this is unable to say when they did NOT exist. Ultimatley, I found out I was living (mainly in the past, comparing to what I did or read) and lacked LIFE & LOVE.
 

Charnell

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Nah, you missed the point. In the long run, it won't matter. No matter where you go, you must take yourself with you. Change only counts IF it's internal -- not your location -- your salary -- your boss... This movement is setting these people up to always think that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
Instead of jumping to conclusions and starting an argument, could you elaborate on that for me?
 
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WJK

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Instead of jumping to conclusions and starting an argument, could you elaborate on that for me?
I'm not starting an argument. I just see things from a long-term perspective. Part of it is being older and an avid people watcher.

I have noted that humans quickly adjust to anything that happens with them or to them. What they thought was going to be extraordinary or unbearable -- quickly becomes the norm. When they get there, it's not at all what they built up in their minds. A little more money becomes part of the budget almost immediately for most people. Maybe you're different. Maybe you're a saving fool on a mission. Only you can answer that.

Humans are herd animals. If you move around much, you are always the new guy. You never become part of the group. It's like being the new kid at school. You get picked for the team last. And you have no idea who they passed over in the existing group in order to bring you on. You may have stepped on someone's toes by coming in the door. And about when you start to get settled down, there's another shiny object to catch your attention. You think you are just happy to wander from moment to moment. Instead, you may tend to lose your focus and direction.

Then, there are the internal problems. There's always someone who has more, makes more, is better looking, or is better at a host of things. That tendency to compare one's situation is the killer of their soul. NOTHING can ever be enough! No matter where you go, no matter how much you achieve, no matter how hard you try, it is never enough to be on top of everything.

When and IF you climb the financial mountain, you are nuevo rich -- the guys with their old family money look down on you as an upstart -- they figure you're a flash in the pan. You will quickly fade away as you spend yourself out of their little world. And they'll be standing there waiting to buy you out at cents on the dollar, while they chuckle at your fate. The guy meditating in the cave looks down on you for chasing a financial dream while he's working on what is really important -- his very soul. He would never waste his time chasing that dirty money. The homeless guy on the street sees you as a shark who is holding him down and keeping him on the streets. But, he sure doesn't envy you having to get up and go work. Your old friends who knew you when -- think you either got lucky or you cheated. They won't hang out with you anymore because you no longer fit in with their group.

That is a start of an explanation. What are your thoughts?
 

Charnell

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I'm not starting an argument. I just see things from a long-term perspective. Part of it is being older and an avid people watcher.

I have noted that humans quickly adjust to anything that happens with them or to them. What they thought was going to be extraordinary or unbearable -- quickly becomes the norm. When they get there, it's not at all what they built up in their minds. A little more money becomes part of the budget almost immediately for most people. Maybe you're different. Maybe you're a saving fool on a mission. Only you can answer that.

Humans are herd animals. If you move around much, you are always the new guy. You never become part of the group. It's like being the new kid at school. You get picked for the team last. And you have no idea who they passed over in the existing group in order to bring you on. You may have stepped on someone's toes by coming in the door. And about when you start to get settled down, there's another shiny object to catch your attention. You think you are just happy to wander from moment to moment. Instead, you may tend to lose your focus and direction.

Then, there are the internal problems. There's always someone who has more, makes more, is better looking, or is better at a host of things. That tendency to compare one's situation is the killer of their soul. NOTHING can ever be enough! No matter where you go, no matter how much you achieve, no matter how hard you try, it is never enough to be on top of everything.

When and IF you climb the financial mountain, you are nuevo rich -- the guys with their old family money look down on you as an upstart -- they figure you're a flash in the pan. You will quickly fade away as you spend yourself out of their little world. And they'll be standing there waiting to buy you out at cents on the dollar, while they chuckle at your fate. The guy meditating in the cave looks down on you for chasing a financial dream while he's working on what is really important -- his very soul. He would never waste his time chasing that dirty money. The homeless guy on the street sees you as a shark who is holding him down and keeping him on the streets. But, he sure doesn't envy you having to get up and go work. Your old friends who knew you when -- think you either got lucky or you cheated. They won't hang out with you anymore because you no longer fit in with their group.

That is a start of an explanation. What are your thoughts?
Oh, I wasn't calling you out or anything, more calling myself out for almost jumping to conclusions and starting an argument instead of a discussion.

While I don't disagree with anything you're saying if the goal is to remain comfortable, stable, in one place, etc., isn't it the opposite of Fastlane mentality?

Nothing is enough creates a desire for more, which I can see as bad if the desire is needless consumption. But if the desire for more is more work, the desire to change more lives, and the desire to create more value in the world, it shouldn't be wrong.

Being in a dead-end job for five years with no pay raise and upward mobility isn't noble; it's naive. That's one portion of the whole antiwork movement. Granted, it initially was some goober never-work-again bullshit. It evolved into "hey, we don't have to get treated like shit for $10/hr anymore," and then that goon went on Fox and F*cked it all the way up haha.

To hit your last paragraph, who cares what some other shmuck thinks of you? WHAT? "Ya know what boss, I don't want that raise. Can't imagine what my neighbors would think of me if I made more money."

To be honest, it's almost like your whole post was arguing against the Fastlane or even the Slowlane. Why get ahead in life when you can be comfortable. More money, more problems, it's not worth it. Stick to the sidewalk, it's a much easier life. Now, maybe that's a great message to preach to the lowly peasants we could hire for single-digit dollars an hour, but I digress.

Like I stated previously in this thread, this forum should be embracing the antiwork movement because most of us are antiwork. It's just the scary communist word was attached to it, so it has to be bad. It really is a deep look into how the people we hire think, their inner thoughts and desires, and what we can do better.

And from what I've gathered, it's not pizza parties. It's an incentive to do more/better. Most people want to work, and most people aren't simply looking for a paycheck. Most people want to feel like what they're doing contributes to the overall mission, and they're compensated appropriately. Which most of us didn't have and pushed us towards forging our own path.
 
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WJK

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Oh, I wasn't calling you out or anything, more calling myself out for almost jumping to conclusions and starting an argument instead of a discussion.

While I don't disagree with anything you're saying if the goal is to remain comfortable, stable, in one place, etc., isn't it the opposite of Fastlane mentality?

Nothing is enough creates a desire for more, which I can see as bad if the desire is needless consumption. But if the desire for more is more work, the desire to change more lives, and the desire to create more value in the world, it shouldn't be wrong.

Being in a dead-end job for five years with no pay raise and upward mobility isn't noble; it's naive. That's one portion of the whole antiwork movement. Granted, it initially was some goober never-work-again bullshit. It evolved into "hey, we don't have to get treated like shit for $10/hr anymore," and then that goon went on Fox and f*cked it all the way up haha.

To hit your last paragraph, who cares what some other shmuck thinks of you? WHAT? "Ya know what boss, I don't want that raise. Can't imagine what my neighbors would think of me if I made more money."

To be honest, it's almost like your whole post was arguing against the Fastlane or even the Slowlane. Why get ahead in life when you can be comfortable. More money, more problems, it's not worth it. Stick to the sidewalk, it's a much easier life. Now, maybe that's a great message to preach to the lowly peasants we could hire for single-digit dollars an hour, but I digress.

Like I stated previously in this thread, this forum should be embracing the antiwork movement because most of us are antiwork. It's just the scary communist word was attached to it, so it has to be bad. It really is a deep look into how the people we hire think, their inner thoughts and desires, and what we can do better.

And from what I've gathered, it's not pizza parties. It's an incentive to do more/better. Most people want to work, and most people aren't simply looking for a paycheck. Most people want to feel like what they're doing contributes to the overall mission, and they're compensated appropriately. Which most of us didn't have and pushed us towards forging our own path.
I'm not against the Fastlane. I've been in business for 46 years. Most Fastlaners I know are hard workers. They are NOT antiwork at all. A lot of us try to do better for everyone around us. We try to build people up rather than putting them down.

What is happening here is presented as a giant reset in people's thinking. I'm saying I don't believe it. I think it's a hiccup due to a major disruption in the standard status quo. People are being reshuffled by moving from one job to another, or simply becoming unemployed. How is that going to work for them?
In the end, I don't think it will really create changes. If it doesn't, then it's all theater.

Your post was about people quitting their jobs. You are talking about apples vs. oranges. There is a whole different mindset between employees and entrepreneurs. Almost all of the people who have quit their jobs are part of the first set of people. There's almost none of them that would ever really consider the Fastlane. You're expecting them to act and think as they cannot.
 
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Charnell

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I'm not against the Fastlane. I've been in business for 46 years. Most Fastlaners I know are hard workers. They are NOT antiwork at all. A lot of us try to do better for everyone around us. We try to build people up rather than putting them down.

What is happening here is presented as a giant reset in people's thinking. I'm saying I don't believe it. I think it's a hiccup due to a major disruption in the standard status quo. People are being reshuffled by moving from one job to another, or simply becoming unemployed. How is that going to work for them?
In the end, I don't think it will really create changes. If it doesn't, then it's all theater.

Your post was about people quitting their jobs. You are talking about apples vs. oranges. There is a whole different mindset between employees and entrepreneurs. Almost all of the people who have quit their jobs are part of the first set of people. There's almost none of them that would ever really consider the Fastlane. You're expecting them to act and think as they cannot.
As I said, antiwork is the victim of a shitty name. It turned into people not tolerating bullshit working conditions for crap pay. While there are still some folks that hold onto the original meaning, the vast majority do not and have since moved on to the "worker reform" group.

Honestly, it sounds like this may be a generational thing. 46 years in business, I'm going to assume you're at least 60 years old. The days of working at the same business for 30 years and retiring with a gold Rolex and pension are long over. If an employee received less than a 7% raise going into 2022 they took a pay cut. Why would anyone stick that out when they can move to a new role for a $5k, $10k, $15k or 20%, 30%, 40% raise? That's the disruption in the status quo. To stay at one job isn't even sidewalk, that's crawling in the mud.

How's that going to work for them? They're going to be better off. You said "humans quickly adjust to anything that happens with them or to them" then go on to say a whole lotta stuff that can be quickly adjusted to.

As far as going on unemployment, I think the government can F*ck right off. I don't even like that there's a minimum wage. BUT, my beliefs are not going to change the programs in place, so to that, I say good on the people to use the system. Take advantage of every opportunity you can. If you're making $400 a week working some bullshit job you hate that isn't getting you ahead in life and you can go on unemployment for $600 a week, you would have to have Stockholm Syndrom tickling your tonsils to think the former is the better option. If they're bailing out banks they can bail out people.

I don't think we're going to agree on anything here. You believe antiwork is bad no matter what, I believe antiwork is entertaining to watch from the sidelines.
 

WJK

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I don't think we're going to agree on anything here. You believe antiwork is bad no matter what, I believe antiwork is entertaining to watch from the sidelines.
You're putting words in my mouth. I don't believe that "antiwork is bad no matter what" -- it's just boring for me and it makes people brain dead.

I do believe that a lot of these people have drunk this fad's Kool-Aid. The door is open right now. By the time they run out of resources, that door may close in front of them. The cycle will finish -- with a whimper or a roar -- whether these people are ready or not.

Yes, some will end up better off. Some are using this window of time to create new business opportunities, gain skills, widen their sphere of influence, and acquire more education. I sure hope so. But I really doubt it is a very big percentage.

What have you been doing with your spare time? I assume from your post that you quit your job and went on unemployment? Are you creating a new business? Working on an established one?
 

Xeon

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I can understand and relate to this movement.

It's the result of people working 17+ hours a day for a very low salary at a meaningless job (just for the salary), 6 - 7 days a week, every week, every month and year.......with NO END IN SIGHT. Nowhere to escape (starting a business doesn't provide an escape) or run or hide. Actually there is, in some countries. You can run to the woods and grow your own vegetables there and sustain yourself based on that.

This movement is also going on in China (in fact they had this before the "antiwork" term was invented in the West), and it's a reactionary movement to the whole hustlecore culture (think Gary V's kind of life).
 
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Charnell

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What have you been doing with your spare time? I assume from your post that you quit your job and went on unemployment? Are you creating a new business? Working on an established one?
Therein lies the overall problem. You assume that anyone who can see things from other people's perspective is part of that thing. People have been hating their job and going to new jobs every year for decades, it's just now there's a central place to talk about it. Kind of like there have always been entrepreneurs, but we congregate here to talk about it.

And to be clear, my business neared a quarter million ($242,244.20) last year. If everything remains the same this year (based on the previous six months), it should be 450 to half. Revenue, of course, I only took $65k from it last year and will bump that up to $135k this year. Digital products so margins are not a real consideration.

Again, we're not going to see eye-to-eye on anything, so I'm bowing out.
 
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WJK

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Therein lies the overall problem. You assume that anyone who can see things from other people's perspective is part of that thing. People have been hating their job and going to new jobs every year for decades, it's just now there's a central place to talk about it. Kind of like there have always been entrepreneurs, but we congregate here to talk about it.

And to be clear, my business neared a quarter million ($242,244.20) last year. If everything remains the same this year (based on the previous six months), it should be 450 to half. Revenue, of course, I only took $65k from it last year and will bump that up to $135k this year. Digital products so margins are not a real consideration.

Again, we're not going to see eye-to-eye on anything, so I'm bowing out.
Yes, I see the world differently from you. But, your assumptions about my assumptions are off base.

I too have lived on both sides of that fence. I went to work when I was 11 years old and I still work every day. I understand the worker's position. Minimum wage was $1.65 per hour when I was an 18-year-old kid. I worked 2 and 3 jobs for years. Yes, I hated my jobs and my situation -- which motivated me to create a different path. Even with a college degree, I made less than my first husband did as common labor. And most careers were blocked to women. You have never lived in that world!

Good for you with your business. I'm glad that you weren't one of those who sat home and collected money that we borrowed. Now keep it going. It looks like we're going into a rotten recession. After the shakeout from Covid, this could be a rough downturn.
 

WJK

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Therein lies the overall problem. You assume that anyone who can see things from other people's perspective is part of that thing. People have been hating their job and going to new jobs every year for decades, it's just now there's a central place to talk about it. Kind of like there have always been entrepreneurs, but we congregate here to talk about it.

And to be clear, my business neared a quarter million ($242,244.20) last year. If everything remains the same this year (based on the previous six months), it should be 450 to half. Revenue, of course, I only took $65k from it last year and will bump that up to $135k this year. Digital products so margins are not a real consideration.

Again, we're not going to see eye-to-eye on anything, so I'm bowing out.
I'm dealing with this problem this morning. I have a young man, who has a huge blended family. He's been working for me as an independent contractor. He hasn't shown up for 2 days now. So, I have another person waiting in the wings to take his place. Oh well. He'll be shocked when he does finally come out of his fog. And he will probably lose his housing with me too since now he'll have to go find a job and pay his full rent. He's throwing himself under the bus. I'm going to hide and watch. That means that I'm not going to try to save him from himself.
 
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Epicure

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I think it is more fundamental than what is being presented. For me, it has several parts:

1. For the younger set, I think they lack fire in their bellies. To me, this is many times rooted in them having no understanding, and internalizing, the concept of cause and effect. I do this and that happens... Being expected to perform and produce is a first for them. Why? Because -- When they were kids, they got a prize for showing up and participating. No one won or lost. No one's feelings were hurt. They expected the world to give them a "safe place" to keep them emotionally isolated. None of their actions to date have had dire consequences. They never went hungry or without anything. And now we expect them to act like a grownup and do the hard stuff? (I was tougher when I was in the 5th grade than a lot of these young people are as adults!) And they're very verbal about their demands. They howl loudly when they get uncomfortable. They've been playing the game all their lives just as they were taught to do it.

To me, it is a matter of stunted growth through a lack of real-world experiences. I believe that the whole reason for parenting is to foster and help create an independent, self-directed adult -- not a failure to thrive, wining little wimp!

2. For the older adult, I see this trend as an on-set of a mid-life crisis type of moment. Many of these people are waking to discover that the working for 40 years thing and then retiring is a terrible hoax. The idea of keeping up with the Jones -- by buying stuff that can't afford and don't really use -- on credit cards that makes them slaves to the financial industry -- is a dead-end street. What happens when they discover that it all means nothing? Can they find another way to make their lives work? They too have been playing it just like they were taught to do it in their youth.

3. And then there are those idiots who think that the government is going to take care of them out of the goodness of its heart. The welfare system here in the USA has made more slaves than the South ever thought about making. These people are stuck in a system that holds them in poverty for the rest of their lives. They can't work and get ahead -- they'll lose that monthly deposit that they depend on... Women can't have a husband and partner in life. Men are relegated to being a "baby daddy" -- which ruins their lives because the State hunts them down for child support. payments to support "the system". The women must raise their kids on their own. They are given just enough funds to barely make it, but never enough to be comfortable. They must learn to grovel just right to stay on the programs. That monthly deposit is the velvet handcuffs that hold them down, while it supports an army of social workers and politicians.

So, what's my answer? Most of these people will go back to work when their money runs out and they are faced with going hungry and being homeless. Many have shot themselves in the foot and must start over again. Some will pivot and take on a different job from the one that they had -- if they have truly had an awakening. A bunch of the young kids will end up at home with their ever-helpful helicopter parents. Again. They'll be thinking about going back to school for another useless degree -- and wracking up more student loan debts... Very few of these people who quit their jobs will successfully start their own business and join the few us out there that are slugging it out every day.

PS -- I realized after I wrote this that I'm just NOT very politically correct. Sorry if I offended some people -- or am I really sorry? I'm not so sure...
I started my first business at 16 mowing lawns and weed removal, pushing my mover to each job. I've had several low paying jobs like breaking up seawalls with a sledge while standing in 4ft of nasty water, washing dishes in a busy restaurant and the list goes on. The point is that without a good solid foundation and sweat equity one will not have a point of reference for wealth and how to keep it. Of course there is always the lucky exceptions.
 

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Like I stated previously in this thread, this forum should be embracing the antiwork movement because most of us are antiwork.

I’ve read a half dozen of your posts after this to better understand your point of view. I get it, you re-defined anti-work to fit your argument. And i disagree. You say:

“It really is a deep look into how the people we hire think, their inner thoughts and desires, and what we can do better.”


But that’s not the case. Market decides if I can or cannot take advantage of employees. Today, I pay a premium, turn myself inside out to attract good people. It’s employees’ market. And under such conditions, anti-work is just that, anti-work.

That’s not to say there aren’t deplorable conditions for many jobs. To that, I say “don’t wish it were easier, wish you were better”. To get better jobs, we all must bring more to the table. It’s not enough to show up and say “I’m an American, I deserve… bla bla bla”. That’s degradation of society, we need growth.
 

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I’ve read a half dozen of your posts after this to better understand your point of view. I get it, you re-defined anti-work to fit your argument. And i disagree. You say:

“It really is a deep look into how the people we hire think, their inner thoughts and desires, and what we can do better.”


But that’s not the case. Market decides if I can or cannot take advantage of employees. Today, I pay a premium, turn myself inside out to attract good people. It’s employees’ market. And under such conditions, anti-work is just that, anti-work.

That’s not to say there aren’t deplorable conditions for many jobs. To that, I say “don’t wish it were easier, wish you were better”. To get better jobs, we all must bring more to the table. It’s not enough to show up and say “I’m an American, I deserve… bla bla bla”. That’s degradation of society, we need growth.
Amen. We all need to be better: better employees, better business owners, better at everything.

We need to make responsibility and excellence goals again, instead of making mediocrity the cultural goal.
 
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Did you copy the wrong line because at first, you said you disagree and then you quite literally said the same thing I said?

"I disagree"

"...what we can do better"

"Market decides if I can or cannot take advantage of employees. Today, I pay a premium, turn myself inside out to attract good people. It's employees' market."

It reads like "I disagree that this is how the people we hire think and what we can do better. Anyways, this is how I do better because the people I need to hire expect more."

You said "most of us entrepreneurs are anti-work". I said "no, most of us are 100% pro-work, hard work and execution to be able to achieve what we achieve".
You spent 6 or 7 posts to explain how YOU defined anti-work. I said "no, you don't get to re-define something to fit your argument". I've elaborated that people who are quitting shit jobs have every right to do so but instead of doing nothing after (Anti-work) they should wish to become better at something. Being better will get you a better job. Which is a mindset change from anti-work to "work your a$$ off 9 to 5 and then start a night shift learning a new skill at 6pm to 10pm".

Are we on the same page?
 

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