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Chris Sciora

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So that's it eh? We pay like a real tax rate of 70% (after all taxes everywhere are factored in) or it's mad Max? Wow, maybe we should actually increase taxes!

I love it when "less taxes" or "smaller government", hell even "don't grow the government as fast" is equal to complete anarchy and murder on the streets.
Where do you live with an effective tax rate of 70%?

If it's the United States, that simply isn't true. The country's wealthiest people aren't paying taxes anywhere remotely near that rate. Starting with the well known example of Peter Theil's oversized Roth IRA account. Anyone paying 70% is simply too lazy or ignorant to learn how to minimize taxes to an acceptable rate. You can trot out all those conspiracy stats totaling up the endless taxes, but realize they apply to W2 employees. Not business owners and investors. Not people who create wealth.

Yes, taxes have their place. They're used to provide all the benefits of living safely in a modern society. People bitch endlessly about "'paying too much" without considering what's received in return. Sanitation, clean water, agriculture not filled with toxins and bacteria, meat packing products that won't kill you, public libraries, museums, education, auto safety. None of which was true in 1900.
 
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thechosen1

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Where do you live with an effective tax rate of 70%?

If it's the United States, that simply isn't true. The country's wealthiest people aren't paying taxes anywhere remotely near that rate. Starting with the well known example of Peter Theil's oversized Roth IRA account. Anyone paying 70% is simply too lazy or ignorant to learn how to minimize taxes to an acceptable rate. You can trot out all those conspiracy stats totaling up the endless taxes, but realize they apply to W2 employees. Not business owners and investors. Not people who create wealth.

Yes, taxes have their place. They're used to provide all the benefits of living safely in a modern society. People bitch endlessly about "'paying too much" without considering what's received in return. Sanitation, clean water, agriculture not filled with toxins and bacteria, meat packing products that won't kill you, public libraries, museums, education, auto safety. None of which was true in 1900.
Yes, you can optimize your taxes as a business owner, but GPM is right about your real effective tax rate being much higher than your cumulative nominal tax rate.

When you factor in the taxes on your taxes on your taxes, it really is a lot more than what you think. Sales, property, payroll, capital gains, etc.

People also excuse endlessly about the benefits without setting any kind of meaningful cap or limit or putting hard numbers to the test.

There has to be some amount or limit. How much taxation is too much? How much does the government actually need?

Does the IRS need 10 employees, 100 employees, 1,000 employees, or 1,000,000 employees? Do we need a fountain in the park made out of solid marble with gold flecks in the bottom?

Come on man, it's not black and white.
 

Aditya Gunjal

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On the bright side, the American government still can't round us up and steal all the firearms, per the Supreme Court.

One freedom the USA still has over most other countries. Probably one of the only freedoms.

But hey, it's the one you'd need most in the Boston Massacre, or Tienanmen Square.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
What did supreme court said?
 

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A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
What did supreme court said?
The Supreme Court reiterated this statement for the upteenth time, protecting this right from a New York politician.

To be more specific, "there is no right guaranteed by the Constitution that you must first present a need to exercise."

Meaning, you don't need a permit for a right.
 
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Chris Sciora

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If that’s all that taxes did, I’d be paying 1/10th of what I’m paying today.
Nah, most of our taxes go to keeping the C students busy. That's why I take proactive steps to reducing them.

That's a long ways from thinking a first world country can magically function with zero unearned income.
 

Antifragile

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Nah, most of our taxes go to keeping the C students busy. That's why I take proactive steps to reducing them.

That's a long ways from thinking a first world country can magically function with zero unearned income.

D10C0E83-1CAD-4EF7-9E0D-3611835CAD65.jpeg
 

thechosen1

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Aditya Gunjal

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The Supreme Court reiterated this statement for the upteenth time, protecting this right from a New York politician.

To be more specific, "there is no right guaranteed by the Constitution that you must first present a need to exercise."

Meaning, you don't need a permit for a right.
This is one of the two reasons i want US citizenship. Guns and cars. Our country is F*cked by British and their rules. Now our government is afraid of armed citizens and does not allow citizens to bear arms unless and until their life is at threat or some ridiculous reasons. And even with arms license we cannot obtain higher class weapons. I am fond of weapons and want to practice with them but as you know ..
 

Aditya Gunjal

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View: https://youtu.be/eYql1AJyWHs

Damn he proved that dictatorship can be established in US in appropriate legal manner. But the proff is gone, nobody seemed to care about it. And look at US now you will get his point (in canada too).
 
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MJ DeMarco

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Roe v. Wade overturned. Anyone have any thoughts?

This isn't the place, on par with discussion on getting vaxxed, or no-vax.
 

GPM

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Where do you live with an effective tax rate of 70%?
I'm not talking about the taxes you see off your business or income. Even with that, the straight income you are left with also has taxes off it when you buy stuff. So straight up if you pay 10% tax on your item you buy, and paid 25% of you income, it isn't really 10% anymore is it?

Further to that, every single item you buy, and every service you receive, is more expensive due to the taxes those guys paid. It's more due to the employees and services they had to hire in order to remain compliant with whatever government regulation, rule, or entity and membership they require to operate. So the items and services you buy have significantly inflated prices due to them complying with whatever government BS they have to do.

So sure you might pay 25-50% in taxes you see. However, every "after tax dollar" that you want to spend is spent on something that has all kinds of expenses wrapped into it that you never see due to both taxes and government policy. It's a rabbit hole. A black hole if you will that just sucks and sucks and takes and takes.

Everytime you see a government project, what usually follows are the words "cost overruns" and "longer than expected" or "not as effective as planned". Now you can extrapolate those results to literally every single government agency and program and collection point. What other entity on the face of the planet can provide knowingly horrible results and be rewarded for it with more money and more power?
 

Trevor Kuntz

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Tom Woods has a lot of cool stuff to say about homeschooling.

Basically, because of the power of technology, you can exchange that 23 year old blue haired commie retard, reading a government approved textbook, for a world reknown mathematician, historian, economist, linguist or writer. Why not learn from the best?

I’m sure @Antifragile is about to swing in and say something like “how do you know who is the best?” :rofl:

To that I say, it becomes a free and open market, and the best always emerges. Also, anything is an improvement over “the libs of TikTok” groomer F*ckfaces. It’s not hard to be better, “the best” might take some extra effort.

I’ll combine our efforts with a bad a$$ private tutor. I’ll be shocked if my kids don’t finish smarter and more well rounded than the average private school champagne socialist.
I was homeschooled for 90% of my pre-university life. I would argue against pure homeschooling (i.e. only your mom teaches you and your siblings) because I did see many pure homeschoolers who had a hard time adapting to life in college and in the real world after. That said, I am very much in favor of the following:

hybrid homeschooling - private in-home teachers for certain classes the parent teacher is not adept to teach

co-ops - a school of 50+ homeschool students where parents teach the classes they are proficient and adept to teach. For example, my mom never took physics and did not feel comfortable teaching me physics, so I took physics 1 and 2 at a co-op under the teaching of a dad there who was a physicist. Normally, co-ops are specific days of the week like Tuesday/Thursday and are excellent for solving the socialization problem.

private group classes - group of parents hired an art/ceramics teacher to teach 10-15 students at a time at the home of one of the parents. This set-up greatly reduced cost per student to about $7 per class per student in 2001-2005 dollars.

public school sports - in my state, homeschool students are eligible to participate in sports at the local public school. I was on track, soccer, and cross country teams for all 4 years of high school

early-access community college - myself and many homeschool peers began banking credits at community colleges starting at age 15 or 16 and many of the 100/200 level courses are as challenging as a high school course anyway

I would also add that the biggest benefit my grandfather gave me for lifelong learning was to establish something he called the Grandpa Kuntz List. Every 6 months, he sent a list of 50 to 75 different tasks/activities to complete with a dollar amount for each task. For example, one I remember clearly was "draw a portrait of Emperor Maximilian I of Mexico for $3" and "write a 200 word biography of him for $3". The list was primarily writing essays since he wanted us to be proficient writers, but other examples included compiling a book of recipes, collecting rocks, growing a plant from seeds, baking cookies, whittling wood art, painting, etc. From ages 6 to 13, these activities made up the bulk of spending money for my siblings and I since my parents were not well-off at the time. Every 6 months, I could make up to about $250 in today's dollars and it really helped me develop different interests and a love for encyclopedias.
 
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Chris Sciora

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I am also confused.

Income tax didn't exist until the late 1800's. Up until then, the government would sell off land to private owners to pay for running the government. Those days are long gone. Unless you think there shouldn't be any government, it needs money to operate. The primary revenue source is income taxes.

Where else would operating revenue come from? Oil leases? Trade imbalance? Patent licensing?

All good ideas that generate money, but we were born in a world where politicians are used to collecting taxes. You should be happy that the only thing they like more than raising taxes is borrowing money. Otherwise, our taxes would be a boatload higher than they are already. Fortunately, the tax planning industry for wealthy people is miles ahead of the politicians. Anyone in the seven figure club paying more than 20% just isn't trying.
 

Antifragile

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Income tax didn't exist until the late 1800's. Up until then, the government would sell off land to private owners to pay for running the government. Those days are long gone. Unless you think there shouldn't be any government, it needs money to operate. The primary revenue source is income taxes.

Where else would operating revenue come from? Oil leases? Trade imbalance? Patent licensing?

All good ideas that generate money, but we were born in a world where politicians are used to collecting taxes. You should be happy that the only thing they like more than raising taxes is borrowing money. Otherwise, our taxes would be a boatload higher than they are already. Fortunately, the tax planning industry for wealthy people is miles ahead of the politicians. Anyone in the seven figure club paying more than 20% just isn't trying.

I don't know US tax laws, so I'll just complain about Canada.

My income tax bracket is highest, that means I pay 53.50% on every dollar I make over $222,420.
When I buy a nice car, my luxury vehicle tax is 20%. That's 20% of my after tax money.

Let me put it this way, a $150,000 car costs me $150k x 1.2 / 0.535 = $336,449 in pre-tax income I'd have to make extra. Or think of it like this, I pay $186,449 in taxes on a $150,000 car. FML.

+ Vancouver gas taxes 54 cents per litre! Drivers in the rest of B.C. pay 43 cents in taxes per litre of gasoline.

How is this level of taxation not criminal?

And please tell me again that I should be happy! Please. :rolleyes:
 

thechosen1

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I was homeschooled for 90% of my pre-university life. I would argue against pure homeschooling (i.e. only your mom teaches you and your siblings) because I did see many pure homeschoolers who had a hard time adapting to life in college and in the real world after. That said, I am very much in favor of the following:

hybrid homeschooling - private in-home teachers for certain classes the parent teacher is not adept to teach

co-ops - a school of 50+ homeschool students where parents teach the classes they are proficient and adept to teach. For example, my mom never took physics and did not feel comfortable teaching me physics, so I took physics 1 and 2 at a co-op under the teaching of a dad there who was a physicist. Normally, co-ops are specific days of the week like Tuesday/Thursday and are excellent for solving the socialization problem.

private group classes - group of parents hired an art/ceramics teacher to teach 10-15 students at a time at the home of one of the parents. This set-up greatly reduced cost per student to about $7 per class per student in 2001-2005 dollars.

public school sports - in my state, homeschool students are eligible to participate in sports at the local public school. I was on track, soccer, and cross country teams for all 4 years of high school

early-access community college - myself and many homeschool peers began banking credits at community colleges starting at age 15 or 16 and many of the 100/200 level courses are as challenging as a high school course anyway

I would also add that the biggest benefit my grandfather gave me for lifelong learning was to establish something he called the Grandpa Kuntz List. Every 6 months, he sent a list of 50 to 75 different tasks/activities to complete with a dollar amount for each task. For example, one I remember clearly was "draw a portrait of Emperor Maximilian I of Mexico for $3" and "write a 200 word biography of him for $3". Other examples included compiling a book of recipes, collecting rocks, growing a plant from seeds, baking cookies, whittling wood art, painting, etc. From ages 6 to 13, these activities made up the bulk of spending money for my siblings and I since my parents were not well-off at the time. Every 6 months, I could make up to about $250 in today's dollars and it really helped me develop different interests and a love for encyclopedias.
This is awesome! My parents did similar for me with regards to paying for tasks and production, teaching me to be an entrepreneur.

Oops, old quote I didn’t mean to include...


Income tax didn't exist until the late 1800's. Up until then, the government would sell off land to private owners to pay for running the government. Those days are long gone. Unless you think there shouldn't be any government, it needs money to operate. The primary revenue source is income taxes.

Where else would operating revenue come from? Oil leases? Trade imbalance? Patent licensing?

All good ideas that generate money, but we were born in a world where politicians are used to collecting taxes. You should be happy that the only thing they like more than raising taxes is borrowing money. Otherwise, our taxes would be a boatload higher than they are already. Fortunately, the tax planning industry for wealthy people is miles ahead of the politicians. Anyone in the seven figure club paying more than 20% just isn't trying.
once again, all or nothing... straw man fallacies... it’s about the amount, like @Antifragile said. I’m sure @Kak can give you ideas about zero government. Not my intention. I’m just saying we are taxed too much.

And there are plenty of taxes besides income. And you’re wrong - they had mostly sales taxes first.

The American income tax came in 1913, along with our print-happy central bank / Federal Reserve.

We could talk about dramatically reducing the scope of government, that would be nice. Right now they pretty much do whatever they want, with seemingly unlimited funds - oops, I mean deficits.
 
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GPM

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I don't know US tax laws, so I'll just complain about Canada.

My income tax bracket is highest, that means I pay 53.50% on every dollar I make over $222,420.
When I buy a nice car, my luxury vehicle tax is 20%. That's 20% of my after tax money.

Let me put it this way, a $150,000 car costs me $150k x 1.2 / 0.535 = $336,449 in pre-tax income I'd have to make extra. Or think of it like this, I pay $186,449 in taxes on a $150,000 car. FML.

+ Vancouver gas taxes 54 cents per litre! Drivers in the rest of B.C. pay 43 cents in taxes per litre of gasoline.

How is this level of taxation not criminal?

And please tell me again that I should be happy! Please. :rolleyes:
Okay Mr. Fragile, now try and figure out how much more that car costs you due to the tax burden the car manufacturers have. The direct materials all cost more due to tariffs and taxes and all kinds of BS, the labor costs more as the employer pays all kinds of stuff to even have an employee (not including their actual wage).

@Chris Sciora doesn't understand that even if your personal tax rate was 0%, by the very nature of hidden taxes on everything he purchased it is actually quite significant. Oh but they didn't show you it on the bill or your income statement, therefore it does not exist.
 

thechosen1

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Okay Mr. Fragile, now try and figure out how much more that car costs you due to the tax burden the car manufacturers have. The direct materials all cost more due to tariffs and taxes and all kinds of BS, the labor costs more as the employer pays all kinds of stuff to even have an employee (not including their actual wage).

@Chris Sciora doesn't understand that even if your personal tax rate was 0%, by the very nature of hidden taxes on everything he purchased it is actually quite significant. Oh but they didn't show you it on the bill or your income statement, therefore it does not exist.
At least he’s starting to learn the basics. Most people don’t even know they pay any taxes, because they are taken straight out of their paychecks.

That’s what our main company does for our employees - but we also print it on the paystub so every employee sees the thousands of dollars that would be theirs otherwise.
 

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Okay Mr. Fragile, now try and figure out how much more that car costs you due to the tax burden the car manufacturers have. The direct materials all cost more due to tariffs and taxes and all kinds of BS, the labor costs more as the employer pays all kinds of stuff to even have an employee (not including their actual wage).

@Chris Sciora doesn't understand that even if your personal tax rate was 0%, by the very nature of hidden taxes on everything he purchased it is actually quite significant. Oh but they didn't show you it on the bill or your income statement, therefore it does not exist.
When Tea Party?
 
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Income tax didn't exist until the late 1800's. Up until then, the government would sell off land to private owners to pay for running the government. Those days are long gone. Unless you think there shouldn't be any government, it needs money to operate. The primary revenue source is income taxes.

Where else would operating revenue come from? Oil leases? Trade imbalance? Patent licensing?

All good ideas that generate money, but we were born in a world where politicians are used to collecting taxes. You should be happy that the only thing they like more than raising taxes is borrowing money. Otherwise, our taxes would be a boatload higher than they are already. Fortunately, the tax planning industry for wealthy people is miles ahead of the politicians. Anyone in the seven figure club paying more than 20% just isn't trying.
When personal income tax came into being, the government was funded by the tariff. The income tax was sold as a way to reduce government reliance on tariffs. So they passed the income tax, with the caveat that it would only be a tiny percent of very rich people's income. Then they forgot all those details and raised both the tariff and the income tax, and made the income tax apply to not-rich people instead.

In other news, I had some kind of stomach flu or food poisoning (I ate the salmon mousse... Monty Python reference), then COVID as I was getting over that. I'm fine now, COVID was only like 2 days. Also I probably don't have worms.
 

Raoul Duke

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When personal income tax came into being, the government was funded by the tariff. The income tax was sold as a way to reduce government reliance on tariffs. So they passed the income tax, with the caveat that it would only be a tiny percent of very rich people's income. Then they forgot all those details and raised both the tariff and the income tax, and made the income tax apply to not-rich people instead.

In other news, I had some kind of stomach flu or food poisoning (I ate the salmon mousse... Monty Python reference), then COVID as I was getting over that. I'm fine now, COVID was only like 2 days. Also I probably don't have worms.

Hey, I didn't even eat the mousse.
 

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"“I know too much about war to glory in it. But wars are made by politicians who neglect to prepare for it.”" (William Stevenson, A Man Called Intrepid)
 
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Since everyone's talking about taxes, I'll float an idea I've had lately. Perhaps we should do away with all taxes and the government should simply print the money it needs. Inflation would be our tax. I'm sure economists can come up with a million different reasons that's a terrible idea, but here are a few reasons it might be a good idea:

- No more abusive and expensive IRS.
- I've seen estimates that tax compliance costs between $150 billion and $200 billion every year. That's a ridiculous sum of money to come up with a number. I know those estimates assume most people do taxes in their free time and assign a dollar amount to the hours they spend, but as we often discuss here, time's more valuable than money, and who wants to spend precious hours of their lives filling out tax forms?
- Everyone would feel it. You want more government agencies or a war on the other side of the world? Ok, but your grocery bills are going up. Tax bills don't necessarily go up when spending does. Politicians know that inflation really hurts their approval ratings, so they might be more constrained.
- No more complicated tax code. Politicians love to talk about making the rich pay their fair share while turning to their donors and rich buddies and whispering "Don't worry, we'll carve out an exception for you."
- No reason for anyone to use tax shelters.
 

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The first ingredients on my "olive oil mayonnaise" is canola oil. Go figure.

Anyone here make homemade mayonnaise? I rarely eat it, but I do use it with tuna.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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@WJK - see you around, but having heard from ya in while, you OK?
 

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